Why do people insist that any new idea publicly espoused is impossible without the person who is the first to bring up the new idea. Idolatry. You do understand that when you say “without him bla bla” you are idolizing him. If you disagree, you did use the word “never”. Or were you just exaggerating?
Szasz, as far as I can tell, is calling bluff on “mental illness”, in line with Hitler’s eugenics of the 30’s.
What’s the 666 mean for you in your moniker? You seem to rely primarily on others for knowledge.
What makes you think growing old is a blessing? 52, 59, 60. How do you come up with these numbers? Not intending to be critical, however ….
If you look carefully at this interview with Nancy the Psychiatrist, and where the camera goes to, and Nash Sr.’s apparent disinterest in his son’s hallucinations, it should tell you something. For one thing, John Jr. is obviously on antipsychotics.
My point being, if it’s not clear, John Sr. is quite happy to leave his son in misery.
I didn’t mean to imply it was the be-all and end-all.
Corporations today, or private wealth and power, have always been the underlying mechanism.
Yes, money is an issue, but it’s mostly easy money that is the main culprit here. Profits over people has been going on for a long time. Even in medicine.
Money not really being the main issue, for now.
Dramatically over-diagnosed in the USA or dramatically under-diagnosed in the rest of the world. The treatment suggested being atypical antipsychotics for 7 year-olds. Let me think for a while about that.
The US is also paying much more than any other country to treat people that are sick. Which also costs money. How do you explain that? Part of the answer could be that the US has the global reserve currency.
Why is everyone’s post here in italics? It seems someone forgot to close a tag. For shame!
Well, that is a bonus effect of the chemical olanzapine at work (or lack of work). Histamine receptor binding at very low dosages. Increased appetite. Especially for food that is really no good for you. But, it’s better than 20mg haldol, no?
Problem with olanzapine, before you get to the juicy dopamine antagonism, you have to sacrifice histamine and serotonin.
I’m comparing the psychopharmacology of LSD and antipsychotics like Olanzapine. Broadly speaking, they have opposite effects, although LSD seems more complex. Serotonin seems to play a key role here, though not the only one.
Also, from what I can tell, dopamine plays only a secondary role in the atypicals at lower dosages. Not, though, at high dosages. If, for example, a psychiatrists decides to increase olanzapine from 10mg to 20mg because the person is showing signs of “psychosis”, it will block dopamine at levels that greatly increase the probability of tardive dyskenisia.
In my opinion bio-psychiatry has it wrong when they claim blocking dopamine is the main target for reducing psychotic symptoms like hallucination. It may make you indifferent to them, though. 5HT2A seems to be more pertinent. LSD seems to be a 5HT2A agonist, which causes the altered perception. Also, people build up a tolerance over time to LSD, caused by a down-regulation of 5HT2A receptors, something bio-shrinks wont admit is the case for neuroleptics.
Taking Olanzapine as an example (being a notoriously diabolical concoction):
So, theoretically it blocks (in order) 5HT2A, 5HT6, H1, 5HT2C, before dopamine and α1.
I read somewhere that on average, 5HT2A blocking is max at about 5mg. At 2,5mg dopamine blocking is negligible.
It seems to me there are quite a few obstacles to overcome in order to taper from this drug. Withdrawal from different chemical effects at different dosages. Above 5 mg the dopamine blocking effect, below seratonin and histamine.
I read the FIP leaflet from the NHS website. It seems discussing the past of the person experiencing psychosis is one of 2 things that are not allowed in the sessions.
Thomas Szasz is not your friend. A wolf in sheep’s clothing. A complete lack of compassion, but with a high IQ.
A year isn’t long enough, in my opinion, for the brain to regain balance.
Still today, a lot of psychiatrists will deny any lasting damage caused by their drugs. Antipsychotics, antidepressants or even benzodiazepines.
They won’t claim the same when it comes to illegal drugs, which is an amazing contradiction.
“Direct access to care”. Could that be translated, in layman terms, to “free”? To avoid ending up in the ER of the local hospital, because of a life-threatening, mostly avoidable emergency.
One of the most devious tactics that psychiatrists and most studies on the efficacy of neuroleptic treatment use is their study of so-called “first episode” patients. They do all kinds of measures and tests when these people are obviously at their most vulnerable. Slap on an antipsychotic, do some more tests and measures after a while, since they become tired and apathetic, at least they are no longer actively psychotic (something that probably would subside in any case). Scans that show increasing brain damage over time are attributed to the illness. Trials on animals are not valid. Trials longer than 2 or 3 years are not popular, as it would probably indicate a paradox. A relapse is called schizophrenia, requiring life-long treatment. Ofcourse, it’s not a failure of the drug.
Sarcasm. In the past, after being on antipsychotics for many years, I wondered why taking a substance that temporarily increased dopamine had such an intense effect on me. Now I know what the most likely cause is.
The importance of Ghandi, in my view, is essentially how easily we can all be fooled.
Having said that (typo and all) extreme mental states are not solely psychological in origin.
That’s why it helps to re-read a post. do I realize it was a typo.
A sense of humor helps as well.
He was a racist, from his time in South Africa, and it never changed. He had the opportunity to rise above it, but chose to re-inforce the caste system in India, re-branding it a bit to sound more palatable.
It could just be that the story about the Samaritan was part of a plan concocted by a rival group to undermine the Jewish faith. As could be the whole narrative in the New Testament. History of the Catholic Church does tell of persecution of Jews.
The contradiction arises, when there is a obvious burden, and a proportion don’t want to partake in it.
Oh, stop. Gandhi lived in the 20th Century, so it’s easier to discern what he actually did. Your Jesus of Nazareth was born of a virgin, what does that tell you of the accuracy of the stories about him 2000 years later, or even 200? What makes you even think this story you are telling isn’t made up? Who was narrating it? The BBC?
Gandhi wasn’t born anything, I didn’t say he was terrible, I said he was repulsive, repulsive to the people he excluded. It was his choice to exclude. And he exerted power.
“but are there certainly psychological causes for extreme mental distress”. Without a question mark. Do you re-read what you post?
People are human? And never entirely hopeless? You mean those people who practice biological psychiatry?
Ghandi is essentially a repulsive person. Take his stance on the untouchables in India. He thought it was acceptable if they converted to Islam or Christianity. Polluting his Hindu faith was not acceptable to him.
Is Torrey a new breed of dog that I haven’t heard of? I’m guessing it’s a new hybrid vicious attack dog that will defend it’s masters property at all costs.
“Credit default swap” sounds just like the musical chairs game. It’s probably similar, but with a catch.
The ruling .01% are not one entity acting in unison. If they all believed the same thing, that 16T is lost to them, it would make no sense for them to promote chronically disabling drugs.
Elon Musk is my hero.
The labeling serves to create a false economy. That’s the theory behind it.
The “premise” or theory or idea behind mental illness as something real is “lost productivity”, as your pal Oldhead so eloquently stated somewhere below. Mental health is the antithesis. It’s productivity. The reality of lost productivity, or liability, is not a metaphor in this sense. The label, in and of itself, is. I don’t see how comparing a label of something real to something real that’s not attributed to a label in any way sensible.
In what way are you productive? Are you adding something, or in some way lessening the load? If so, what and how? Are you developing a rocket that can extract resources from mars and beyond? How much lost productivity do all the pensioners add up to?
“Will cause” the world economy or “will cost” the world economy? Ultimately everyone is a liability. It’s built in to the debt based economy of our soulless existence. Paying back the debt is impossible. That being said, 16 trillion is meaningless.
I somehow don’t think it’s helpful to spin the mental health problem as somehow the result of white colonialist practices. A simple counter-argument, in the case of Indian culture, would be the untouchable community, which existed way before the white devils arrived. And then there is the mass exodus of muslims and hindus from one geographical location to another (post colonialism), burning and beating each other every step of the way. Then we can talk about the senseless hatred that exists today between Pakistanis and Indians. Ah, and the most annoying aspect, those Windows Support people that call you up and tell you they have detected a virus on your computer.
To me it’s quite funny, and revealing, you would mention the voices. In my view, the voices are bullies, they never identify themselves. To concentrate on the voices, and give them some kind of religious importance, tells me you, in effect, are defending the abusers by drugging the victims of abuse. A sad state of affairs.
If it’s just a calming drug, haldol at low dosages would suffice. Hospitals still use it almost exclusively.
I was told by a self professed expert on psychopharmacology (on a psychosis website managed by psychiatrists that I won’t mention) that studies of neuroleptics on animals is in no way comparable to the effect on humans. Also, the main action of any neuroleptic is sedative (according to him), whatever that means. A first generation antihistamine is also a sedative, I suppose it could also be considered an antipsychotic, by that logic.
Sandra Steingard, I’m curious, how do you see an improvement in your patients on neuroleptics that can’t be done any other way? If you could explain that in some detail, I would appreciate it. I gather, maintaining them on the drug is also necessary to sustain this improvement. Or is it just as a temporary measure to calm someone down?
It shouldn’t be surprising to anyone that torture doesn’t work. What it does convey, though, is the mindset of those that inflict it. Psychiatrists in general are not surprised by the inefficacy of their treatment, It’s not their goal to heal, in their mind there is no cure. Two strikes and your out. That’s the definition of schizophrenia.
Just my 2 cents: I was prescribed an SSRI antidepressant some years ago by a psychiatrist. Her argument was that since I had been on an antipsychotic for so many years, that there was a chance I might become depressed. So it was prescribed as a preventative measure. Luckily for me, I stopped after a month, the main symptoms after withdrawal were the so-called brain zaps. If I had followed her advice, I would still be taking them now.
From this experience, and others, I believe most of these psychiatrists honestly have no idea what these chemicals do. What they are taught and indoctrinated with seems to me very far removed from reality.
Studies on SGA’s are notorious for ignoring their long term effects. If they do cause long term harm (which they do) they can always say the patient developed a new psychiatric illness and up the dose.
I’m just curious, what were you on and at what dosage when you slept 15 hours / day. It’s relevant. Seroquel is highly sedative, but only becomes antipsychotic at higher doses. Antipsychotic is code for “brain damage”. In the past, haldol and thorazine were administered at insanely high doses.
The aim was for 150 mins per week. That’s 21 minutes per day. When you say “were they on antipsychotics”, the real question should be at what dosage?. 2 mg haldol is vastly different than 6 mg. And when talking about the atypicals, olanzapine below 5 mg per day is essentially no longer an antipsychotic. It doesn’t block dopamine. It does act as a sedative, though.
Szasz himself says, “if we didn’t have psychiatry, we would have to invent it”. “It’s a social control mechanism, a branch of the law”. His argument of consensual practice of psychiatry implies you know as much as the psychiatrist, which is almost never true.
@Steve Spiegel Why do you believe radiation is not a factor? How does a toddler experience this cultural stress?
Yes, you are correct, I made an error when dividing 2000 by 59. But you knew that already. It’s interesting you would mention it.
Brilliant! But I would still change study to experiment.
Makes you wonder if these people are scientists, or mad scientists.
It’s not a study, it’s an experiment. How confusing. Better yet, put cameras in all these old age homes and post a live feed on Youtube. You will find “off-label” and “excessive” over-prescribing will reduce by 100%.
“Study Reduces Over-prescription of Antipsychotics in Older Adults”. Shouldn’t you change the title to something like “Study Leads to a Reduction of Over-prescription of Antipsychotics in Older Adults”. The way it’s phrased makes one think that a study literally reduced over-prescription, which is impossible.
It’s not if your still relatively young. And it’s only off-label, which means it’s experimental (no science to back it up).
Chronic administration of antipsychotics is meant to make the “patient” demented. Possibly to honor the man who popularized the phrase dementia praecox, Emil Kraepelin. I applaud the psychiatrists for their compassion towards older patients.
Dr. David Healy also thinks ECT is safe and effective (for severe depression, I’m not sure if he only advocates it for that). It’s definitely effective (sarcasm), according to ECT promotion websites 10% have significant memory impairment. That’s probably a very optimistic statistic.
I had a friend (when I was young) who had severe acne, as he was rich he had a specialist to treat his acne. You can’t imagine how sexually active he was. He was the gossip of the school. Maybe he was in denial (joke).
Do you really believe this is due to “an increase in cultural stress on children to “achieve”” Or is it more likely a neuro-developmental problem. Possibly caused by something that has changed in the environment.
“Pediatricians discount the epidemic because anti-vaxers have tied the increase to vaccines”. That sounds very far fetched to me. More than a 60 fold increase since 1990 and pediatricians say it’s a conspiracy from the anti-vax community?
I would seriously look into the negative effects of EMF radiation from WiFi, Cell Phones and bluetooth devices. The rise in 1990 of autism coincides nicely with the rise in cell phone use and other wireless technology.
Here’s the first article that comes up on a Google search for prenatal exposure to emf radiation:
@Steve McCrea I think I need to clarify a little more:
You can see the same type of rhetoric from the other side. “These people need to be on antipsychotics for the rest of their lives, their unpredictable and could be a danger to themselves or others if not medicated”.
The discussion on long term use of antipsychotics would be mute if the supersensitivity hypothesis was proven.
@Steve McCrea I’m not saying either. I’m saying the comparison just feeds the “beast”.
@Someone Else Maybe you didn’t understand what I was trying to say. I’m talking about the one-time injection a person is given to calm him / her down when in the ER (in my case, there were only a nurse and a few orderly’s hovering over me). Not the institution of psychiatry. There I would agree with you. But that’s much more subtle and does a lot more harm.
A lot of men carry their cellphones in their front trouser pockets. The increased radiation could effect sperm and dna. Just a thought.
@kindredspirit People have to learn to be more careful with their wording.
@kindredspirit My problem is with the psychiatrist, who convinces you that there is no cure for what you have, and proceeds to drug you day after day …
@kindredspirit I do understand the analogy. I’ve been injected with haldol a few times after being taken to hospital. I understood at the time that if I was going to resist, they would have to hold me down. It’s just one injection, the effects wear off within a day. The hospital staff giving the injection are not rapists. They would rather not have to deal with it at all.
I also hear from people who post blogs here comparing being forcibly injected with haldol to being physically raped. If you want to be taken seriously, you have to let go of these sorts of comparisons. If you don’t, no one will take you seriously.
Here is a simple question: If you are acting out of control and brought into the emergency, what do you expect them to do? You may not like it, but their going to pull down your trousers and inject you. It’s not the same as being raped.
Slavery, I think, is a few degrees more serious than this. It doesn’t come across as helpful, in my opinion, to make such extreme comparisons.
“The prejudice I referred to is the notion that the physician should interfere in anything psychological or spiritual. Another is that the medical approach should always be appropriate in the psycho-social demands labeled ‘psychosis’.”
I never implied that. Did I?
@janCarol Reminds me of meditation. The teacher gives you increasingly more impossible tasks, until you get the point.
Could you also specify exactly which prejudices. It helps when you are more specific. Is it expensive? Is it personalized? Is it mostly meant for people who are already quite confident of themselves and are looking for a little extra? Before “breathwork”, Grof used LSD. He developed breathwork because LSD became illegal.
Psychiatry and psychiatric drugs serve psychiatrists and the pharmaceutical drug companies. There is no incentive to heal.
I have a very superficial understanding of shamanism (I’m not a shaman). Aren’t they supposed to share insight?
What do you know about schizophrenia? That is what I’m trying to get at. The title says “healing from schizophrenia”. Maybe you can, if you wish, start by answering that.
Also, if I can’t afford the treatment, that doesn’t make me prejudiced.
Another aspect is that “breathwork” is highly personal (contrast that with shamanism where the shaman’s task is to share his insights with the clan) and it’s (I would guess) expensive.
It’s an interesting read (Breathwork, Exploring the Frontier …). But it seems to me, the whole technique is only suited for people who are already naturally quite grounded. The title of the blog (healing from schizophrenia) made me question the whole comment section re. these breathing techniques and whether schizophrenia was really at play here.
Thanks for your replies, it’s appreciated. I hope you do continue to succeed in helping people. It’s a step up from psychiatry, to say the least. Boa sorte.
I don’t understand what “trying not to get too attached” means. Are you on the fence? See how it goes? I’ll use it if it suits me?
Her persistent paranoia: “I knew how this was probably caused by some connection disturbance between my prefrontal cortex and the amygdala”. “Knowing” something is different than “probably knowing something”.
I’m also stumped by the affirmation that “the caliber of cerebral blood vessels is probably affected too”. Is it, or isn’t it? And what does “caliber” mean in this context.
Pseudo would be saying “I don’t think there is oxygen depletion”. There is also “probably” and “I think the keys is”. Also “my inner feeling”. Starting every paragraph with “I think”, without anything to back it up, is pseudo.
I take it, from your interest in this article, that she made us of your services. That’s why I’m asking.
@Sean Blackwell: This Blog post, from the title, says “healing from schizophrenia”, not bipolar disorder. What has she healed from, in your opinion?
“Adam’s parents need counseling to address their inability to manage their parents.” How can you know that from the article?
Clinical depression is a bitch. I find this film helpful, it kind of puts things more into perspective:
As long as you sign the consent form, everything is fine.
Just a simple thing he says. If you want a lobotomy, have a lobotomy. He could care less about other people.
Look at the right-left divide in the US today.
Anti means you want to totally annihilate your “perceived” opposition. Enering into dialogue, to me, seems a more humane approach. Wouldn’t you agree?
I have to laugh at some people here who validate their belief-system based on him. I’m an athiest and so is my hero Szasz. So I must be doing something right. Pathetic.
Yes, exactly what Szasz argues. It’s a dog-eat-dog world. That’s why I think, regardless of his intellectual prowess, he was a despicable human being.
You should put quotes around “shared decision making”. Jim van Os believes it will be another 50 years before anything changes, when he is long retired.
Was he aware it was a drug withdrawal?
Klonopin is the correct spelling, not klonapin. I’m “picky”. As everyone should be when, for whatever reason, is dragged into the world of psychiatry. It’s a bottomless pit.
Exactly, the tapering strips route is only possible if the “medical professional” agrees with it. And they are biased. Every profession lies to protect itself.
I believe her logic for keeping me on klonapin was to counteract the restlessness (she didn’t say, but probably for akathisia caused by the antipsychotic, hence muscle relaxant). But to keep someone on a benzo indefinitely, whatever the reasoning behind it, is malpractice in itself. And not giving any warning that stopping suddenly is dangerous …
I see only one mention of a “client” agreeing to restart an antidepressant. If it’s consented to, I find that an improvement. That seems to me Szasz’s main argument, letting people decide for themselves.
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Oldhead, I’m not obliged to know everything Burroughs ever said. The virus remark has to do with what a lot of this post’s quibbles are about. Mental illness is a myth. So, if I was ever “psychotic” in the past, I was faking it to get attention.
“Maybe making such inferences contributes to your despondency”. Intellectual bullying.
My comments were directed at Oldhead. At some point you can’t reply to a specific comment anymore. I’ve only ever read one Burroughs book, long ago. The Spock thing has to do with his logic rather than his empathic abilities.
Although I don’t think it had much impact on the prescribing.
There was a piece on a popular program I think back in 2015 which got a lot of response from the public. A lot of people unhappy that they weren’t told about the nasty side effects and the withdrawal. I think that led to people being better informed. It’s a small country.
I gather, by the Burroughs remark, you see me as a homicidal drug addict. To each his own.
Your welcome, Mr. Spock.
I tend to be a bit “picky” at times, glad you noticed.
Ah, and the next medical professional I saw after the klonopin incident, took no notice, re-diagnosed me a paranoid schizophrenic and put me on double the antipsychotic dose and valium for 1 1/2 years.
I love the advice. Always in discussion with a medical professional. My particular medical professional had me on klonopin for 8 years, told me it was just a muscle relaxant (where I lived it was called Rivotril). I trusted her and didn’t look into it. Stopped cold turkey, and subsequently had 3 seizures, hallucinations, ended up in hospital. She also tried to get me on Zoloft (I stopped after a month), telling me that people in my situation (taking antipsychotics for many years) tend to become depressed. I wasn’t depressed at the time.
For Szasz, the rape of the planet for material gain, was / is quite an acceptable practice. As long as it’s consensual. Whatever that means.
Another irony, if you do meet him, and you ask him a question, his response would probably be, “haven’t you read my books?”.
It’s also interesting, Peter only mentions antidepressants. That’s because in the Netherlands, antidepressants should only be taken for no longer than 2 years, and always accompanied by talk therapy. So, withdrawal becomes a real problem, and a way for someone to earn money by specializing in the withdrawal process.
A solution for withdrawal symptoms? That was his only motivation. Typical Dutch answer.
Last time I looked, if I click on it, it’s blank. Also, all your posts are on one long page. With a secondary navigation menu way down at the bottom. It’s not rocket science.
I wonder, have you had a look at your website, and possibly considered it could be structured in a better way? I don’t know, a menu that actually works?
Szasz was a materialist. There are better and worse ways to figure out the game he was playing. The worst is to read his books. The second worst is to listen to his recordings on youtube. The best way is to interact with him personally.
And you didn’t put quotes around the word them.
Also, using the word “them” when you talk about “schizophrenics” seems to imply you really do believe they are a separate category of people.
Why don’t you put quotes around the word wrong as well. It would seem more consistent.
Why put quotes around illness. You don’t believe people can be ill?
Language is a virus. If you want to project, you can say it comes from outer space.
We should all strive to become more like the honey bee. A fully evolved species. The main threat to the honey bee, on the other hand, is us humans.
I agree, it’s up to the person experiencing psychosis or depression to make sense of it themselves. Or to go beyond it. But it’s different to those people who go to an ayahuasca retreat for a week in the Amazon. That’s why I thought the comparison was naive. Especially when I see all the videos on youtube.
Here is a real life example of drug experimentation:
This is a most naive question. Try taking DMT or ayahuasca straight for 2 months. Or LSD, or any psychedelic.
Freedom of choice would be the last thing they make into a disorder. It would break the spell.
I found it. Scrap that request.
Could you copy / paste here the preface of the Syracuse University Press edition released in the 1980’s of Ethics of Psychoanalysis. I can’t find it online.
You left out, in your analysis, that, even if they are effective (rare) in the short term, or even in the medium term (2-4 years), after that, due to the brain having adapted to the poison (drug), it only causes harm. Then, what do you do?
Irrelevant in relation to their effectiveness. Which is what you said. Not irrelevant without qualification. I don’t understand why you think it’s a separate issue.
“Open to interpretation and bias” seems to imply mischievous intent. Which is what it is.
What would be a proper measure of harm? I don’t quite follow your logic.
“Overstatement of evidence”, what exactly do you mean by that?
Could you clarify why you think the harm done by psychotropics is irrelevant to whether or not they are effective.
Why do people insist that any new idea publicly espoused is impossible without the person who is the first to bring up the new idea. Idolatry. You do understand that when you say “without him bla bla” you are idolizing him. If you disagree, you did use the word “never”. Or were you just exaggerating?
Szasz, as far as I can tell, is calling bluff on “mental illness”, in line with Hitler’s eugenics of the 30’s.
What’s the 666 mean for you in your moniker? You seem to rely primarily on others for knowledge.
What makes you think growing old is a blessing? 52, 59, 60. How do you come up with these numbers? Not intending to be critical, however ….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_RthnW8j-4
If you look carefully at this interview with Nancy the Psychiatrist, and where the camera goes to, and Nash Sr.’s apparent disinterest in his son’s hallucinations, it should tell you something. For one thing, John Jr. is obviously on antipsychotics.
My point being, if it’s not clear, John Sr. is quite happy to leave his son in misery.
I didn’t mean to imply it was the be-all and end-all.
Corporations today, or private wealth and power, have always been the underlying mechanism.
Yes, money is an issue, but it’s mostly easy money that is the main culprit here. Profits over people has been going on for a long time. Even in medicine.
Money not really being the main issue, for now.
Dramatically over-diagnosed in the USA or dramatically under-diagnosed in the rest of the world. The treatment suggested being atypical antipsychotics for 7 year-olds. Let me think for a while about that.
The US is also paying much more than any other country to treat people that are sick. Which also costs money. How do you explain that? Part of the answer could be that the US has the global reserve currency.
Why is everyone’s post here in italics? It seems someone forgot to close a tag. For shame!
Well, that is a bonus effect of the chemical olanzapine at work (or lack of work). Histamine receptor binding at very low dosages. Increased appetite. Especially for food that is really no good for you. But, it’s better than 20mg haldol, no?
Problem with olanzapine, before you get to the juicy dopamine antagonism, you have to sacrifice histamine and serotonin.
I’m comparing the psychopharmacology of LSD and antipsychotics like Olanzapine. Broadly speaking, they have opposite effects, although LSD seems more complex. Serotonin seems to play a key role here, though not the only one.
Also, from what I can tell, dopamine plays only a secondary role in the atypicals at lower dosages. Not, though, at high dosages. If, for example, a psychiatrists decides to increase olanzapine from 10mg to 20mg because the person is showing signs of “psychosis”, it will block dopamine at levels that greatly increase the probability of tardive dyskenisia.
In my opinion bio-psychiatry has it wrong when they claim blocking dopamine is the main target for reducing psychotic symptoms like hallucination. It may make you indifferent to them, though. 5HT2A seems to be more pertinent. LSD seems to be a 5HT2A agonist, which causes the altered perception. Also, people build up a tolerance over time to LSD, caused by a down-regulation of 5HT2A receptors, something bio-shrinks wont admit is the case for neuroleptics.
Taking Olanzapine as an example (being a notoriously diabolical concoction):
Seratonin 5HT2A (4), 5HT2C (11) and 5HT6 (5).
Histamine H1 (7).
Dopamine D1-D4 (11 – 31)
Adrenergic α1 (19)
So, theoretically it blocks (in order) 5HT2A, 5HT6, H1, 5HT2C, before dopamine and α1.
I read somewhere that on average, 5HT2A blocking is max at about 5mg. At 2,5mg dopamine blocking is negligible.
It seems to me there are quite a few obstacles to overcome in order to taper from this drug. Withdrawal from different chemical effects at different dosages. Above 5 mg the dopamine blocking effect, below seratonin and histamine.
I read the FIP leaflet from the NHS website. It seems discussing the past of the person experiencing psychosis is one of 2 things that are not allowed in the sessions.
Thomas Szasz is not your friend. A wolf in sheep’s clothing. A complete lack of compassion, but with a high IQ.
A year isn’t long enough, in my opinion, for the brain to regain balance.
Still today, a lot of psychiatrists will deny any lasting damage caused by their drugs. Antipsychotics, antidepressants or even benzodiazepines.
They won’t claim the same when it comes to illegal drugs, which is an amazing contradiction.
“Direct access to care”. Could that be translated, in layman terms, to “free”? To avoid ending up in the ER of the local hospital, because of a life-threatening, mostly avoidable emergency.
One of the most devious tactics that psychiatrists and most studies on the efficacy of neuroleptic treatment use is their study of so-called “first episode” patients. They do all kinds of measures and tests when these people are obviously at their most vulnerable. Slap on an antipsychotic, do some more tests and measures after a while, since they become tired and apathetic, at least they are no longer actively psychotic (something that probably would subside in any case). Scans that show increasing brain damage over time are attributed to the illness. Trials on animals are not valid. Trials longer than 2 or 3 years are not popular, as it would probably indicate a paradox. A relapse is called schizophrenia, requiring life-long treatment. Ofcourse, it’s not a failure of the drug.
Sarcasm. In the past, after being on antipsychotics for many years, I wondered why taking a substance that temporarily increased dopamine had such an intense effect on me. Now I know what the most likely cause is.
The importance of Ghandi, in my view, is essentially how easily we can all be fooled.
Having said that (typo and all) extreme mental states are not solely psychological in origin.
That’s why it helps to re-read a post. do I realize it was a typo.
A sense of humor helps as well.
He was a racist, from his time in South Africa, and it never changed. He had the opportunity to rise above it, but chose to re-inforce the caste system in India, re-branding it a bit to sound more palatable.
It could just be that the story about the Samaritan was part of a plan concocted by a rival group to undermine the Jewish faith. As could be the whole narrative in the New Testament. History of the Catholic Church does tell of persecution of Jews.
The contradiction arises, when there is a obvious burden, and a proportion don’t want to partake in it.
Oh, stop. Gandhi lived in the 20th Century, so it’s easier to discern what he actually did. Your Jesus of Nazareth was born of a virgin, what does that tell you of the accuracy of the stories about him 2000 years later, or even 200? What makes you even think this story you are telling isn’t made up? Who was narrating it? The BBC?
Gandhi wasn’t born anything, I didn’t say he was terrible, I said he was repulsive, repulsive to the people he excluded. It was his choice to exclude. And he exerted power.
“but are there certainly psychological causes for extreme mental distress”. Without a question mark. Do you re-read what you post?
People are human? And never entirely hopeless? You mean those people who practice biological psychiatry?
Ghandi is essentially a repulsive person. Take his stance on the untouchables in India. He thought it was acceptable if they converted to Islam or Christianity. Polluting his Hindu faith was not acceptable to him.
Is Torrey a new breed of dog that I haven’t heard of? I’m guessing it’s a new hybrid vicious attack dog that will defend it’s masters property at all costs.
“Credit default swap” sounds just like the musical chairs game. It’s probably similar, but with a catch.
The ruling .01% are not one entity acting in unison. If they all believed the same thing, that 16T is lost to them, it would make no sense for them to promote chronically disabling drugs.
Elon Musk is my hero.
The labeling serves to create a false economy. That’s the theory behind it.
The “premise” or theory or idea behind mental illness as something real is “lost productivity”, as your pal Oldhead so eloquently stated somewhere below. Mental health is the antithesis. It’s productivity. The reality of lost productivity, or liability, is not a metaphor in this sense. The label, in and of itself, is. I don’t see how comparing a label of something real to something real that’s not attributed to a label in any way sensible.
In what way are you productive? Are you adding something, or in some way lessening the load? If so, what and how? Are you developing a rocket that can extract resources from mars and beyond? How much lost productivity do all the pensioners add up to?
“Will cause” the world economy or “will cost” the world economy? Ultimately everyone is a liability. It’s built in to the debt based economy of our soulless existence. Paying back the debt is impossible. That being said, 16 trillion is meaningless.
I somehow don’t think it’s helpful to spin the mental health problem as somehow the result of white colonialist practices. A simple counter-argument, in the case of Indian culture, would be the untouchable community, which existed way before the white devils arrived. And then there is the mass exodus of muslims and hindus from one geographical location to another (post colonialism), burning and beating each other every step of the way. Then we can talk about the senseless hatred that exists today between Pakistanis and Indians. Ah, and the most annoying aspect, those Windows Support people that call you up and tell you they have detected a virus on your computer.
To me it’s quite funny, and revealing, you would mention the voices. In my view, the voices are bullies, they never identify themselves. To concentrate on the voices, and give them some kind of religious importance, tells me you, in effect, are defending the abusers by drugging the victims of abuse. A sad state of affairs.
If it’s just a calming drug, haldol at low dosages would suffice. Hospitals still use it almost exclusively.
I was told by a self professed expert on psychopharmacology (on a psychosis website managed by psychiatrists that I won’t mention) that studies of neuroleptics on animals is in no way comparable to the effect on humans. Also, the main action of any neuroleptic is sedative (according to him), whatever that means. A first generation antihistamine is also a sedative, I suppose it could also be considered an antipsychotic, by that logic.
Sandra Steingard, I’m curious, how do you see an improvement in your patients on neuroleptics that can’t be done any other way? If you could explain that in some detail, I would appreciate it. I gather, maintaining them on the drug is also necessary to sustain this improvement. Or is it just as a temporary measure to calm someone down?
It shouldn’t be surprising to anyone that torture doesn’t work. What it does convey, though, is the mindset of those that inflict it. Psychiatrists in general are not surprised by the inefficacy of their treatment, It’s not their goal to heal, in their mind there is no cure. Two strikes and your out. That’s the definition of schizophrenia.
Just my 2 cents: I was prescribed an SSRI antidepressant some years ago by a psychiatrist. Her argument was that since I had been on an antipsychotic for so many years, that there was a chance I might become depressed. So it was prescribed as a preventative measure. Luckily for me, I stopped after a month, the main symptoms after withdrawal were the so-called brain zaps. If I had followed her advice, I would still be taking them now.
From this experience, and others, I believe most of these psychiatrists honestly have no idea what these chemicals do. What they are taught and indoctrinated with seems to me very far removed from reality.
Studies on SGA’s are notorious for ignoring their long term effects. If they do cause long term harm (which they do) they can always say the patient developed a new psychiatric illness and up the dose.
I’m just curious, what were you on and at what dosage when you slept 15 hours / day. It’s relevant. Seroquel is highly sedative, but only becomes antipsychotic at higher doses. Antipsychotic is code for “brain damage”. In the past, haldol and thorazine were administered at insanely high doses.
The aim was for 150 mins per week. That’s 21 minutes per day. When you say “were they on antipsychotics”, the real question should be at what dosage?. 2 mg haldol is vastly different than 6 mg. And when talking about the atypicals, olanzapine below 5 mg per day is essentially no longer an antipsychotic. It doesn’t block dopamine. It does act as a sedative, though.
Szasz himself says, “if we didn’t have psychiatry, we would have to invent it”. “It’s a social control mechanism, a branch of the law”. His argument of consensual practice of psychiatry implies you know as much as the psychiatrist, which is almost never true.
@Steve Spiegel Why do you believe radiation is not a factor? How does a toddler experience this cultural stress?
Yes, you are correct, I made an error when dividing 2000 by 59. But you knew that already. It’s interesting you would mention it.
Brilliant! But I would still change study to experiment.
Makes you wonder if these people are scientists, or mad scientists.
It’s not a study, it’s an experiment. How confusing. Better yet, put cameras in all these old age homes and post a live feed on Youtube. You will find “off-label” and “excessive” over-prescribing will reduce by 100%.
“Study Reduces Over-prescription of Antipsychotics in Older Adults”. Shouldn’t you change the title to something like “Study Leads to a Reduction of Over-prescription of Antipsychotics in Older Adults”. The way it’s phrased makes one think that a study literally reduced over-prescription, which is impossible.
It’s not if your still relatively young. And it’s only off-label, which means it’s experimental (no science to back it up).
Chronic administration of antipsychotics is meant to make the “patient” demented. Possibly to honor the man who popularized the phrase dementia praecox, Emil Kraepelin. I applaud the psychiatrists for their compassion towards older patients.
Dr. David Healy also thinks ECT is safe and effective (for severe depression, I’m not sure if he only advocates it for that). It’s definitely effective (sarcasm), according to ECT promotion websites 10% have significant memory impairment. That’s probably a very optimistic statistic.
I had a friend (when I was young) who had severe acne, as he was rich he had a specialist to treat his acne. You can’t imagine how sexually active he was. He was the gossip of the school. Maybe he was in denial (joke).
Here’s a video of early signs of autism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7NeBs5wNOA
Do you really believe this is due to “an increase in cultural stress on children to “achieve”” Or is it more likely a neuro-developmental problem. Possibly caused by something that has changed in the environment.
“Pediatricians discount the epidemic because anti-vaxers have tied the increase to vaccines”. That sounds very far fetched to me. More than a 60 fold increase since 1990 and pediatricians say it’s a conspiracy from the anti-vax community?
I would seriously look into the negative effects of EMF radiation from WiFi, Cell Phones and bluetooth devices. The rise in 1990 of autism coincides nicely with the rise in cell phone use and other wireless technology.
Here’s the first article that comes up on a Google search for prenatal exposure to emf radiation:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3302692/
@Steve McCrea I think I need to clarify a little more:
You can see the same type of rhetoric from the other side. “These people need to be on antipsychotics for the rest of their lives, their unpredictable and could be a danger to themselves or others if not medicated”.
The discussion on long term use of antipsychotics would be mute if the supersensitivity hypothesis was proven.
@Steve McCrea I’m not saying either. I’m saying the comparison just feeds the “beast”.
@Someone Else Maybe you didn’t understand what I was trying to say. I’m talking about the one-time injection a person is given to calm him / her down when in the ER (in my case, there were only a nurse and a few orderly’s hovering over me). Not the institution of psychiatry. There I would agree with you. But that’s much more subtle and does a lot more harm.
A lot of men carry their cellphones in their front trouser pockets. The increased radiation could effect sperm and dna. Just a thought.
@kindredspirit People have to learn to be more careful with their wording.
@kindredspirit My problem is with the psychiatrist, who convinces you that there is no cure for what you have, and proceeds to drug you day after day …
@kindredspirit I do understand the analogy. I’ve been injected with haldol a few times after being taken to hospital. I understood at the time that if I was going to resist, they would have to hold me down. It’s just one injection, the effects wear off within a day. The hospital staff giving the injection are not rapists. They would rather not have to deal with it at all.
I also hear from people who post blogs here comparing being forcibly injected with haldol to being physically raped. If you want to be taken seriously, you have to let go of these sorts of comparisons. If you don’t, no one will take you seriously.
Here is a simple question: If you are acting out of control and brought into the emergency, what do you expect them to do? You may not like it, but their going to pull down your trousers and inject you. It’s not the same as being raped.
Slavery, I think, is a few degrees more serious than this. It doesn’t come across as helpful, in my opinion, to make such extreme comparisons.
“The prejudice I referred to is the notion that the physician should interfere in anything psychological or spiritual. Another is that the medical approach should always be appropriate in the psycho-social demands labeled ‘psychosis’.”
I never implied that. Did I?
@janCarol Reminds me of meditation. The teacher gives you increasingly more impossible tasks, until you get the point.
Could you also specify exactly which prejudices. It helps when you are more specific. Is it expensive? Is it personalized? Is it mostly meant for people who are already quite confident of themselves and are looking for a little extra? Before “breathwork”, Grof used LSD. He developed breathwork because LSD became illegal.
Psychiatry and psychiatric drugs serve psychiatrists and the pharmaceutical drug companies. There is no incentive to heal.
I have a very superficial understanding of shamanism (I’m not a shaman). Aren’t they supposed to share insight?
What do you know about schizophrenia? That is what I’m trying to get at. The title says “healing from schizophrenia”. Maybe you can, if you wish, start by answering that.
Also, if I can’t afford the treatment, that doesn’t make me prejudiced.
Another aspect is that “breathwork” is highly personal (contrast that with shamanism where the shaman’s task is to share his insights with the clan) and it’s (I would guess) expensive.
It’s an interesting read (Breathwork, Exploring the Frontier …). But it seems to me, the whole technique is only suited for people who are already naturally quite grounded. The title of the blog (healing from schizophrenia) made me question the whole comment section re. these breathing techniques and whether schizophrenia was really at play here.
Thanks for your replies, it’s appreciated. I hope you do continue to succeed in helping people. It’s a step up from psychiatry, to say the least. Boa sorte.
I don’t understand what “trying not to get too attached” means. Are you on the fence? See how it goes? I’ll use it if it suits me?
Her persistent paranoia: “I knew how this was probably caused by some connection disturbance between my prefrontal cortex and the amygdala”. “Knowing” something is different than “probably knowing something”.
I’m also stumped by the affirmation that “the caliber of cerebral blood vessels is probably affected too”. Is it, or isn’t it? And what does “caliber” mean in this context.
Pseudo would be saying “I don’t think there is oxygen depletion”. There is also “probably” and “I think the keys is”. Also “my inner feeling”. Starting every paragraph with “I think”, without anything to back it up, is pseudo.
I take it, from your interest in this article, that she made us of your services. That’s why I’m asking.
@Sean Blackwell: This Blog post, from the title, says “healing from schizophrenia”, not bipolar disorder. What has she healed from, in your opinion?
“Adam’s parents need counseling to address their inability to manage their parents.” How can you know that from the article?
Clinical depression is a bitch. I find this film helpful, it kind of puts things more into perspective:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzD0U841LRM
Well said.
As long as you sign the consent form, everything is fine.
Just a simple thing he says. If you want a lobotomy, have a lobotomy. He could care less about other people.
Look at the right-left divide in the US today.
Anti means you want to totally annihilate your “perceived” opposition. Enering into dialogue, to me, seems a more humane approach. Wouldn’t you agree?
I have to laugh at some people here who validate their belief-system based on him. I’m an athiest and so is my hero Szasz. So I must be doing something right. Pathetic.
Yes, exactly what Szasz argues. It’s a dog-eat-dog world. That’s why I think, regardless of his intellectual prowess, he was a despicable human being.
You should put quotes around “shared decision making”. Jim van Os believes it will be another 50 years before anything changes, when he is long retired.
Was he aware it was a drug withdrawal?
Klonopin is the correct spelling, not klonapin. I’m “picky”. As everyone should be when, for whatever reason, is dragged into the world of psychiatry. It’s a bottomless pit.
Exactly, the tapering strips route is only possible if the “medical professional” agrees with it. And they are biased. Every profession lies to protect itself.
I believe her logic for keeping me on klonapin was to counteract the restlessness (she didn’t say, but probably for akathisia caused by the antipsychotic, hence muscle relaxant). But to keep someone on a benzo indefinitely, whatever the reasoning behind it, is malpractice in itself. And not giving any warning that stopping suddenly is dangerous …
I see only one mention of a “client” agreeing to restart an antidepressant. If it’s consented to, I find that an improvement. That seems to me Szasz’s main argument, letting people decide for themselves.
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Oldhead, I’m not obliged to know everything Burroughs ever said. The virus remark has to do with what a lot of this post’s quibbles are about. Mental illness is a myth. So, if I was ever “psychotic” in the past, I was faking it to get attention.
“Maybe making such inferences contributes to your despondency”. Intellectual bullying.
My comments were directed at Oldhead. At some point you can’t reply to a specific comment anymore. I’ve only ever read one Burroughs book, long ago. The Spock thing has to do with his logic rather than his empathic abilities.
Although I don’t think it had much impact on the prescribing.
There was a piece on a popular program I think back in 2015 which got a lot of response from the public. A lot of people unhappy that they weren’t told about the nasty side effects and the withdrawal. I think that led to people being better informed. It’s a small country.
I gather, by the Burroughs remark, you see me as a homicidal drug addict. To each his own.
Your welcome, Mr. Spock.
I tend to be a bit “picky” at times, glad you noticed.
Ah, and the next medical professional I saw after the klonopin incident, took no notice, re-diagnosed me a paranoid schizophrenic and put me on double the antipsychotic dose and valium for 1 1/2 years.
I love the advice. Always in discussion with a medical professional. My particular medical professional had me on klonopin for 8 years, told me it was just a muscle relaxant (where I lived it was called Rivotril). I trusted her and didn’t look into it. Stopped cold turkey, and subsequently had 3 seizures, hallucinations, ended up in hospital. She also tried to get me on Zoloft (I stopped after a month), telling me that people in my situation (taking antipsychotics for many years) tend to become depressed. I wasn’t depressed at the time.
For Szasz, the rape of the planet for material gain, was / is quite an acceptable practice. As long as it’s consensual. Whatever that means.
Another irony, if you do meet him, and you ask him a question, his response would probably be, “haven’t you read my books?”.
It’s also interesting, Peter only mentions antidepressants. That’s because in the Netherlands, antidepressants should only be taken for no longer than 2 years, and always accompanied by talk therapy. So, withdrawal becomes a real problem, and a way for someone to earn money by specializing in the withdrawal process.
A solution for withdrawal symptoms? That was his only motivation. Typical Dutch answer.
Last time I looked, if I click on it, it’s blank. Also, all your posts are on one long page. With a secondary navigation menu way down at the bottom. It’s not rocket science.
I wonder, have you had a look at your website, and possibly considered it could be structured in a better way? I don’t know, a menu that actually works?
Szasz was a materialist. There are better and worse ways to figure out the game he was playing. The worst is to read his books. The second worst is to listen to his recordings on youtube. The best way is to interact with him personally.
And you didn’t put quotes around the word them.
Also, using the word “them” when you talk about “schizophrenics” seems to imply you really do believe they are a separate category of people.
Why don’t you put quotes around the word wrong as well. It would seem more consistent.
Why put quotes around illness. You don’t believe people can be ill?
Language is a virus. If you want to project, you can say it comes from outer space.
We should all strive to become more like the honey bee. A fully evolved species. The main threat to the honey bee, on the other hand, is us humans.
I agree, it’s up to the person experiencing psychosis or depression to make sense of it themselves. Or to go beyond it. But it’s different to those people who go to an ayahuasca retreat for a week in the Amazon. That’s why I thought the comparison was naive. Especially when I see all the videos on youtube.
Here is a real life example of drug experimentation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#LSD
This is a most naive question. Try taking DMT or ayahuasca straight for 2 months. Or LSD, or any psychedelic.
Freedom of choice would be the last thing they make into a disorder. It would break the spell.
I found it. Scrap that request.
Could you copy / paste here the preface of the Syracuse University Press edition released in the 1980’s of Ethics of Psychoanalysis. I can’t find it online.
You left out, in your analysis, that, even if they are effective (rare) in the short term, or even in the medium term (2-4 years), after that, due to the brain having adapted to the poison (drug), it only causes harm. Then, what do you do?
Irrelevant in relation to their effectiveness. Which is what you said. Not irrelevant without qualification. I don’t understand why you think it’s a separate issue.
“Open to interpretation and bias” seems to imply mischievous intent. Which is what it is.
What would be a proper measure of harm? I don’t quite follow your logic.
“Overstatement of evidence”, what exactly do you mean by that?
Could you clarify why you think the harm done by psychotropics is irrelevant to whether or not they are effective.
Could this be his website: http://www.kuninhealth.com/
Reducing the antipsychotic dose also can unmask akathisia. It’s a catch-22.
Anti-psychotics also cause akathisia. It’s not just SSRI’s.
Here’s Reagan’s solution:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chVKSY2gT00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkyctb-ASLQ
It takes a lot of nerve to try and re-market psychiatric drugs as some kind of spiritual aid.