Yeah, it’s hard to say because the mental health system can create a learned helplessness that reduces people’s confidence. That definitely happened to me.
I’m glad you were able to live above it and not kill yourself.
Maybe for a sense of inclusion or camaraderie with others who have that label? Maybe so others will view them with compassion (it may not usually work that way, but in certain circles it does). It’s pretty easy to get a label though…can’t imagine needing to beg for one. What do you think?
Interesting streetphotobeing. There have been studies that show a knowing someone has a diagnostic label lowers compassion and contributes to dehumanization, less empathy for the person with a label’s suffering etc.
Thanks Rosalee. Sounds like you listened to the podcast which I appreciate!
I love holy basil/tulsi for calming and adrenals and people have found it helpful in psych drug withdrawal as well, along with my favorite, oatstraw.
I have never found labels or disorder language helpful myself either though sometimes I resonate with the idea of feeling “sick” whether long term or acutely for a short while. Not in a pathologizing sense like many people use it, but more like I have the flu. It’s weird how with mental illness labels “sick” sounds like a degrading insult to me. But I’m not sure everyone thinks of it that way. Either way I only find it useful to talk to myself that way and would never want that label put on me by anyone else.
Kindredspirit, same here. I relate with that part about self care a lot also.
I agree with you too about the language, yet so many people use that language to describe their experience, so it’s good to have people who can speak that language AND talk about things in a nuanced way. It isn’t my framework either, yet so much of what Jesse shares still resonates with me..
Thanks Fiachra. Yeah, twitter is pretty cool. Sometimes better than Facebook for certain things. Took me awhile to figure that out. Join us there if you’d like.
Interesting perspective Something Else. It seems some people have an easier time fitting in to society’s prescribed frameworks. it can definitely be a struggle to be an artist in this world, yet like you say, we are so needed.
Steve: yeah, depends whether the Bible is seen as a holy book or a false system of coercion and social control. It’s probably both, but the DSM is severely lacking in the holy factor.
Cat Night, you’re right about the prison industrial complex. Many many are on psych drugs there too. And it is definitely obviously an extremely racist institution and extremely unjust. I agree. Thanks for bringing this up.
Thanks. Good article. I have thought about this a lot as what is called the autism spectrum seems to keep including more and more things, many of which seem in opposite ends of a spectrum. Like everything that is either highly sensitive OR highly insensitive to anything can be considered on the spectrum.
I used to think I was the opposite of autistic, as I tend to be hyper aware of other people, hyper sensitive to surroundings. But now those traits are also discussed as being on the autistic spectrum.
I think if the label helps someone get services and accommodations, then it has a use but I definitely don’t know what people are referring to when they identify as autistic
as it seems to encompass people with both very high and very low levels of different types of sensitivities.
Yeah, I think there are as many “bibles” as there are people probably…or more.
We all have different books that can serve as our bibles at different times and it helps to stretch our imagination about what a “bible” can be (maybe not as far as the dsm tho!) . Especially to include things written by marginalized/oppressed groups.
I’m sure they do have the dsm in there-but in the doctors offices, not floating around the ward.
Thanks Margaret. I certainly drank copious amounts of water when on psych drugs, to the point that my psychiatrist and other doctors were concerned my problems were caused by water toxicity. Unfortunately, it didn’t flush the drugs out of my system, or at least not enough to prevent them from harming me.
and you know about cytochrome P450 liver enzymes? About 10% of caucasians just can’t process the psych drugs and they build up to toxic levels. There’s genetic tests so you can tell ahead of time if you are a “High metabolizer” or low metabolizer but they’re not used clinically yet for some reason.
Boans, wow that is terrible. I haven’t heard of it in the US but who knows? How do they do it? If patients know that is possible, can’t they avoid consuming anything given to them by their psychiatrist? Or do they get family members complicit in this too? Sounds terrilbe!!!
BTW I subscribed to comments on this blog via MIA but haven’t gotten them emailed to me, so I am having a hard time keeping up with responding and finding the new ones. Steve M, or someone at MIA, do you know why the subscription feature didn’t work? It’s worked for me in the past.
I appreciate this comment Steve Spiegel. BTW I subscribed to comments on this blog via MIA but haven’t gotten them emailed to me, so I am havinga hard time keeping up with responding and finding the new ones. Steve M, or someone at MIA, do you know why the subscription feature didn’t work? It’s worked for me in the past.
John, that’s cool. Have you made any videos or blogs yourself? That might be an avenue to get your story out. You could even submit to this very website.
Thank you eccentric. That makes sense. Would you clarify for me which parts you relate to and which feel alienating? My understanding is that as an atheist you don’t believe in a God or gods, though I still don’t know your belief system.
I think the term God means so many different things to different people and can be religious or just an overall sense that there is a force of good. Either way, I get that you don’t believe in it, but I am curious to know what that means to you.
Same with the word soul. What does it mean to you and what about it is alienating? Does it seem to be associated with a particular religious belief?
To me it is a sense of who I am beyond my body, so perhaps you don’t believe that we are anything beyond our bodies? I don’t know. Honestly, it’s like if someone tells me they have a certain diagnosis, I want to know what that means to them, even if I have stereotypes about what it may mean.
Perhaps I could have clarified in this piece what I meant by soul, and I wonder if that would have been more or less alienating to you and possibly others?
John, again, I agree with you 1000%. There are already hundreds of thousands of people on psych drugs and many of them can’t get off when they try, even though they realize the diagnoses are not valid.
I think you are right though. Undiagnosing is a huge piece- especially in allocating funds towards resources for people in withdrawal. And of course for not getting people on in the first place.
John, I completely agree with you. If you read any of my other articles you will see that. The purpose of this article and the ideas behind it, is to support people in freeing themselves from psychiatric drugs. I talk to people regularly who know everything you (and I ) are saying about the politics, but are still struggling immensely with psychiatric drugs withdrawal for years.
So there’s knowing what is going on and then what are we going to do about it? Many people have been made too sick by psychiatry to go out and try to change the system. They can barely get out of bed or even read/write. That’s where I was at too.
I completely agree with all of your points. You are preaching to the choir. If you read my other blogs you’ll understand where I’m coming from. I’ve been saying all the things you are writing here for almost 2 decades now.
But we need to also meet people where they are at, and offer practical steps to empowerment.
ConcernedCarer, I pretty much agree with you. When I say “designed” I do not mean in a benevolent way. Yes, they were discovered, but then they were tweaked into their “medication” form. I don’t credit these drugs with anything helpful either.
markps2 I agree. Though the ones marketed as medications are designed to make people feel better withinthe first few months so that they will stay on them, and stay straightjacketed, and more importantly so that they will appear to be “working” in drug trials.
Thanks out. I think you are right. The drugging is a part of the picture of oppression, but not the whole thing. In some ways it is a big part because it does leave people so intensely vulnerable and out of control of their own body and mind. But then so do abuse and neglect in other ways.
I think in order to achieve freedom from psych drugs and overall integration, there are definitely bigger pictures of abuse that need to be considered. Everything is so interconnected.
Vanilla, I think this is an excellent point. Also, everyone, please excuse my slow responses, as we are having a smoke storm here in the PNW and it’s been hard for me to think clearly…no comparison intended.
But, yeah, vanilla, I resonate with what you are saying. Even from a young age, the idea of a quick fix, or burying my emotions and problems with pills did not sound like a good idea to me. I personally was forced onto psych drugs and then was in withdrawal without knowing it and reluctantly went on more because I was in such extreme panic. Then I lost my will and ability to discern from the drugs, and ended up taking more “consensually”. But if someone spikes your drink and you then have consensual sex, it that truly consensual? Of course not.
So yeah, it’s tricky how to not blame people for all the circumstances that are out of their control while also offering a path with more integrity.
I personally am not telling anyone else what to do or assessing their behavior or choices, since I don’t see that as my role in other people’s lives. I would like to offer helpful support for those who want freedom from psychiatry. Those who WANT freedom is the key part.
Steve S. I think you’re right. Having lots of compassion for my parents as a child made it harder for me to detach. I think I felt I had to protect my younger sibling too. They were better at raging and seeing the family as crazy, while I was getting drained feeling compassion for everyone. Definitely took its toll.
Janehhhh, It was a local zine that doesn’t exist yet, so I’m sure you wouldn’t have heard of it. I’m not trying to demonize the people making this zine as I don’t know them at all. I might even like to get to know them, and know better their intentions.
I used this as an example, because it prompted these thoughts, but I’ve heard similar words so many times, that the zine person was just another person saying the same party lines as thousands of others.
Thanks Ally. I see what you mean in a way, because sometimes when I have been abused by family members, or others, I have had a strong need to label them somehow. I often go to, “they are a bad person”, which is interesting because I never used to believe people could be inherently bad.
I still don’t actually believe that people are simply bad. Abusive people became that way for a multitude of reasons, yet sometimes I just want to call them bad, because they hurt me so much and analyzing “why” they did so puts me into empathy and considering their situation instead of my own. For me this is usually not healthy at all.
If I decide they are bad people, I can simply stay away from them and focus on bettering my own life, healing and not being abused anymore.
So I think there’s a time and place, especially for those who were conditioned to be empathic, to simply label another person. It doesn’t mean they necessarily have an intrinsic disorder or that it could never be reversed, but it can be a good protective instinct, and a reasonable prediction. People can change, I believe, but after a certain point, I’m not holding my breath, and if I were to do so, it would make ME crazy.
Gabi and Julie, also I think it can sometimes be easier for someone who has less at stake to go along with someone’s story, versus their significant other or family member, who is probably tied into the whole drama much more. Even having an attachment to the outcome can be a hindrance in these circumstances.
Julie, I remember when I was first in the hospital system many years ago (in 2001 to be exact), I told my friends that, “There’s this system,” and when they asked if I trusted my parents to help me, I said, “They’re part of the system.” To them I was psychotic, but when I look back now, I knew exactly what was going on. I knew there was a totally rigged system, and like I said, this was in 2001, before you could do real research on the internet, before anyone in my world (and most of the world) knew or talked about big pharma. It was when people still thought psych drugs were medicine,
Often the one we call psychotic is in some way ahead of the curve in their awareness.
It’s like that Shlomo Riskin Quote: “When you’re one step ahead of the crowd you’re a genius. When you’re two steps ahead, you’re a crackpot.”
Lavendersage, I love this, and I do know people who do theater improv and who are much better than the average person at being with those in “altered states”.
Rachel, definitely. They view marijuana as invading their turf too, and even herbs and supplements, trying to make them seem illegitimate or unscientific, when most of them are far more scientific and safe than their drugs.
Thank you Ally! I’m curious, do you think the term neurodivergent is meaningful or accurate? To me it sounds like yet another euphemism, that may or may not mean anything in particular. Perhaps some people identify with it, but without a set standard for “normal” or “mentally healthy” I’m not sure how we can even know what neurodivergent is. And more importantly, I don’t want a standard for mentally healthy as I think it would severely limit creativity, connection and healing.
I totally agree with you about iatrogenesis and how little social support there is, how few people even know about it or understand it, even now.
Thanks Igor. I never felt good about that book. I heard rumors it was sponsored by pharma, like they paid her to write it, though I don’t know for sure. I wouldn’t be surprised though. Even the phrase “my drugs” or “my meds” bothers me because people identify with them as “theirs” which doesn’t seem healthy, like it creates an attachment.
Yes gabi, I agree and thanks for your comment. As far as we know all or almost all of the mass shooters in recent years were on psych drugs. CCHR has a list of all of them if you google it.
I do think in emergencies, drugs can be helpful, when taken as a one time thing, or maybe for a few days to help some one calm down or sleep if there’s an emergency need for sedation.
There may be herbs and less dangerous techniques that can work too. Recently a young woman in my town died of a chemical restraint, that was a benzo.
Some herbs are extremely calming and sedating, and safer than benzos. An expert herbalist would know more than me, even while I’ve been studying and using herbs for a long time. There are those who know more. Sometimes even good food can be enough to stop violent behavior. Common sense often goes out the window in emergency moments.
Well put Slaying the Dragon. Don’t you think the term “meds” came about with psychiatry because medicine is so obviously an inaccurate term? “Meds” is a euphemism, and feels a little less dishonest than medicine somehow.
Yeah, we can say whatever we want but if the law disagrees we have a real issue. If “science” disagrees, we have a social issue because “science” is waaaaay more political than people would like to admit.
Sticks and stones can break my bones but names will never hurt me… What we are inaccurately called only matters if it is then considered “science” or worse, law.
Sylvain, thanks for your comment. I agree with you that people have a hard time being honest with themselves. On one hand I think you are right, that there is a personal responsibility that is being averted.
On the other hand, I don’t think people need to take total responsibility for everything in their lives OR put the responsibility on diagnoses and drugs if they are able to hold complexity. In fact, I think if people were able to accept that they don’t actually know why they lived, or the exact cause of their problems, and acknowledge that there were/are a bunch of different possibilities, explanations and forces at play, they might be able to find peace without dishonestly clinging to an unscientific or untrue explanation.
If it’s a choice between saying it’s all their responsibility or all a diagnosis and a drug, many people will choose a diagnosis drug…but if it’a also socioeconomics, trauma, mystery, fate, etc etc…then there doesn’t need to be one answer. To me that is more honest, and even more scientific.
This blog got quoted in one called “A Therapist Explains What Happens When People Try To Quit Psychiatric Meds”
Here are the links, if you want to see public comments or join in these conversations:
Thanks so much S_Randolph. I forgot to mention that I work with people all over the world. Almost all of my work is by phone or video chat. You can surely refer anyone to me from your local area or anywhere at all. That’s great that you work with folks as a lawyer and I will surely keep you in mind if anyone in the Chicago area reaches out to me.
Thank you Camille. I hear you and know a lot of people in similar shoes. When you’ve been on the drugs for a long time sometimes it takes a lot more support and resources than most people have access to. Hopefully someday high quality detox centers will be freely available to all. Thanks for your comment.
Thank you so much for your supportive comment JanCarol. Yes, there is lots of info online, both helpful and not, so I aim to help people find the best info for where they are currently at and inplement it in ways that are personally relevant. Thanks again and I’m glad you are helping people at survivingantidepressants. I often link to that site on my blog.
Hi Rachel, I do think I could help you find ways to absorb nutrients. There are a lot of alternatives to supplements in liquid, herbal and/or food based forms that we could talk about. I wish you the best! Molasses is a good idea from Steve and if you take it with vitamin c rich foods such as fruit or lemon juice, the iron will be better absorbed. I have a lot of other ideas for you for when we talk.
Hi Rachel, I’m sorry to hear this. It can take awhile to recover from all of this. Where are you located? Are you taking any supplements for the anemia?
Tireless fighter, I get your point and it has some validity. Yet, if you look for everything to be “therapy, healing, life coaching and motivationalism” you can make any simple human act of striving to survive or live well into your idea of a demon.
People are doing their best and sometimes have the time/energy/resources to fight and other times are doing what they can to survive and live their lives the best way they can.
As Steve said, living well is the best revenge. Your point that taking action is necessary is valid though.
I do appreciate where you are coming from, and agree that systemic injustice is at the root of it all and denying that will not “heal” anything. So thanks for your relentless belaboring of this point.
It was also the direction of this article, which had nothing to do with therapy, life coaches etc etc. but rather acknowledging the injustice and addressing it.
We likely have different strategies, since I don’t tend to believe in violent retaliation, though many have the impulse for revenge.
Hi Tirelessfighter. I disagree. Hitting children is commonplace and most people do not end up enforced by the law since hitting children is legal as long as it isn’t “severe” or leaving heavy bruises.
Are you saying well off educated people don’t hit children? That is simply not true.
It seems you didn’t read what I wrote about healing coming from NOT continuing to live in denial. That was the whole point.
Saying someone is completely off base and then not referring to what was actually written here isn’t helpful.
I agree with some of what you say at the end here about choosing not to collaborate with perpetrators…but that is not contradictory to what I wrote.
Thanks Steve. Totally agree and well said. Yes, social and familial abuse go hand and hand. I read something really good about that recently that I will need to send you. It was about how Hitler was so severely abused and treated as subhuman by his family. It talked about how we often replicate the abuse we experience in our families and then expect/accept that treatment from society (or perpetuate it, depending on the level of socioeconomic power).
A lot of survivors of abuse in childhood go on to have abusive conditions at their jobs, but it just seems normal or comfortable as that was all they/we knew.
Hi Fred,
That quote is a perfect example of why no one can be outcast as fundamentally “psychiatrically or psychologically ill”. How could any soul be a mistake that needs to be permanently drugged into compliance?
Thanks for checking out my work. I appreciate your recognition.
Yetanotheraccount- for sure, there are all kinds of emotional and mental abuse children endure as well, and again the “blame” for their reaction is falsely placed on some kind of yet to be discovered mental imbalance.
“The cycle goes on, until a true psychiatry (literally: medicine of the soul/psyche) emerges, puts down its tools of silencing and advocates for us all to speak out about who hit us, when, where and how often.”
The word psychiatry means medicine or healing/treatment of the soul. The “reformed psychiatry” is the one we see now-corrupted by all the things you mention.
Thanks Julie! I love this!
So many previously ordinary ways of relating are falling out of style in favor of Facebook, texting and other digital means that don’t provide the same emotional release and satisfaction as the old fashioned ways… studies have shown that we need to actually talk to balance experience emotional connection in interactions to some degree.
I’m working on letting go of filler and opening to connections with people who want to relate in the real world. They do still exist but I had to get off Facebook to find them!
Kallena,
Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I do think it’s up to chance…or a mystery of some kind. I was brought up that therapy is “the” answer, kind of the way I was brought up that the doctor has the answer. So it’s important to question these assumptions and find our own way, if that is not the best path for our individual selves.
That’s cool that you had a good experience.
Hi Steve. Thanks for sharing your experience. Studies have certainly showed that “lay people”, or those without any psychology training can help people at least as successfully as those with it. Soteria is a great example of that, as well as all forms of peer support.
One question that arises, is whether some therapists are able to not get triggered for socioeconomic reasons, or simply because they’ve had less trauma.
Is the therapist always a “higher rank” in society than the client? Is this necessary?
I know lots of therapists who have been through very severe trauma themselves and would never want their clients to know this because somehow they fear it would take away from their professional image.
Gender, race, class (and class history), trauma history of the therapist are all hugely relevant, but we can only see some of that on the surface.
This is a topic I may write another blog on.
My therapist I write about in this blog is black, living in a primarily white town and told me she has a chronic autoimmune illness. These were some reasons I trusted her, because I knew she hadn’t had an entirely easy life, and therefore could possible relate with my suffering in some way.
It also made it harder for me to objectify her. For example, when black men were murdered by cops, and I knew she has black sons, I couldn’t help but wonder how she was doing with that.
In some ways therapy requires an objectification of the therapist. If we see them too much as a person, it’s hard to indulge in a conversation that is only about ourselves. At least for me.
I agree so much that it’s expressing our feelings in a way that feels safe is what is therapeutic. Advice is often annoying or simply not on point.
Occasionally I have gotten good advice from therapists or friends. But usually when I was asking for the advice.
Somehow bad advice from a therapist is so much more annoying and aggravating than from a friend.
This whole conversation is making me feel really sorry for therapists because it seems like they can only do wrong… And are bound to fail… Yet the average person is much less critical of therapists and the system than we are here on Mia.
One therapist randomly suggested that I might want to visit someone who I had told her I need to stay away from for my safety. And we weren’t even talking about this person. I mentioned wanting to travel to the state they happen to live in, and she suggested maybe I want to see them. This was highly triggering since that person has been emotionally anusive to me and I had no desire to see them at all but her suggestion made me second guess myself and then just feel like she hadn’t listened to me.
One issue with therapists is when their egos get involved and they feel like how can they be getting paid to just listen and be supportive… And then comes the bad advice.
Thanks uprising. I appreciate the validation that my experience was really painful and it wasn’t just about me, but her behavior played into it. A therapist could respond heartfully and sensitively in that situation. She admitted at the end that she’s really bad at conversations about money, insurance etc.
It definitely felt that way. Yet of course I, being an empath who seeks to understand wanted to know WHY she was acting heartless.
To me, healing in any relationship requires learning as much as possible about why people behave the way they do.
What you don’t know CAN hurt you. I prefer transparency.
Thanks again for your validation.
Yes, I agree and can definitely relate with that woundedsoul74. That sense of rejection can bring up old wounds and then it can be like you need support to have a therapist haha.
mik, wow! That validates for me the fear I have around therapy or really any relationship that is set up to be one sided/one way. It seems fundamentally dishonest. Though I always second guess whether it might have its place in some situations. Sorry that happened to you.
Nathan, I hear you. I’d prefer to hear their own experiences… Perhaps it again goes back to me wanting to get to the bottom and know the truth about everyone. If someone wants me to give it another try, I want to know why they feel that way.
Did they lose trust in therapy and then earn it back somehow? How was it for them? Then I can make my own informed decision… Especially if I know them and can discern whether we have enough in common to have a similar experience.
I also want to add that idealization isn’t that big of a thing for me in therapy, even though I mention it. It was when I was a child for sure! I think the hardest part for me is opening up and testing someone in that context where there are professional boundaries that keep me from getting to know the full truth of who they are.
Kallena what is your experience with therapy? Are you a therapist or have you found it helpful for yourself? Literature doesn’t convince me of much but real people and their testimonials can be intruiging or inspiring.
Are you suggesting therapy would be helpful for everyone?
Which was the paragraph that made you sad?
Thanks for reading. It sounds like therapy has helped you and I’d be curious to know more about that versus your projections about what would be good for me.
Thanks Bonnie! I like the idea that to live a lie that harms others is already a curse, as we are all connected. Likewise to know the truth is already a blessing.
Makes sense that a service dog trained to do a specific task for a blind or otherwise physically disabled/differently abled person would need those skills.
These are a very small percentage of the animals that have service dog status now though. I’ve never encountered a problem with a service dog trained to do a specific task- in fact I’ve rarely ever seen them.
It’s the mental health dogs that aren’t in most cases trained to do a specific tasks that have caused me and others allergies and other problems for the most part. I’m sure there are exceptions, but most mental health service dogs aren’t hypoallergenic, and it’s not because they need to hold credit cards as far as I can tell.
Thanks for your comments Julie.
Yeah, I think fear of dogs is pretty natural unless/until unlearned if you think of how most people would feel upon approaching a wild dog/wolf.
My aunt had a poodle and I think I was okay with being at her house when I was a kid. She also kept it spic and span!
What breed is your dog Julie?
I once heard service dogs have to be hypoallergenic, but like most laws surrounding service dogs and pets, it’s rarely, if ever, enforced. It seems only fair to have laws requiring breathable air for allergy sufferers if there are laws making it legal to have a service animal for a mental health diagnosis.
I’ll keep dreaming air filters are a legal requirement in all public places that allow service animals.
Thanks Prettypurplepill! That would be a good idea, to ask to be seen on a different day, though it can often be hard to get an appointment with that much flexibility unless it were well in advance.
One medical office I went to regularly last year had a therapy dog off leash in the waiting area! But it was still the best option I could find because I had a practitioner I liked a lot (which is of course often hard to acquire) and the therapy room itself was clean and free of dogs.
In fact my practitioner was as allergic to dogs as I am! And so is my naturopath. I heard her recently tell someone with a service dog she was allergic. Luckily that person put the dog in their car and it seemed to be a non issue.
Do you know if any airborne allergens trigger your asthma reactions? I think like most things in the medical
model, asthma is framed as an isolated condition that is unrelated to anything else in the body or environment, but usually there is something in the environment that triggers it, or it can be brought on by emotions or trauma, like in your case.
I read somewhere that most people with extreme allergies are childhood trauma survivors.
It may be intergenerational trauma too. In my case it’s at least a good part genetic, and I was allergic to dogs from a very young age before any majorly traumatic events had happened in my life. The first few years of my life were actually relatively trauma free. But my father has the same type of allergic asthma as I do, so I’ve always known I inherited it from him.
Though my brother didn’t get it and I always wondered if it was partially because he was allergic to antibiotics and I was given tons of those at a young age, which can contribute to immunity and allergy problems.
You’re welcome and thanks for your comment. Coffee can help some people with allergies and asthma for sure. My experience is that asthma is generally an allergic response, though for some it is induced by exercise. For me it’s induced by allergens. Thanks for reading!
Old head, you are right that the democrats aren’t exactly better on this issue, and they certainly haven’t helped keep people free from psychiatric harm in the least. The implication of this article is that the democratic regime has had us sleep walking, but in crisis nonetheless. I do think Trumps leadership will be different, and different from other Republicans as well. He was a democrat himself at one time, but never a politician.
The main point is that he brings an air of complete unpredictability and erratic decisions, so we have no idea what will happen, except that things will not stay the same.
Hmmm that wasn’t my experience. I was only able to be convinced of any of those things when I was drugged.
You are right that it’s a much bigger issue, but the drugs are the currency, the drugs are what they’re selling, the drugs are causing a huge amount of harm that cannot be overstated.
Our bodies deserve safety and respect, not just our minds as patriarchy would try to tell us.
Another thing about withdrawal symptoms is that if someone has been on drugs for awhile, organ damage has been done, and there will be more physical symptoms, fatigue, anxiety, blood sugar problems, etc that go along with adrenal fatigue and liver damage etc. Also, the person has aged, which can bring further health challenges that most of us normally experience as we get older with accumulation of stress, wear and tear on our beings and toxins. So there are many reasons why withdrawal symptoms can be intense and why it can be hard to discern what is withdrawal and what is a normal body process that may have not been experienced before for other reasons.
But more often I think people don’t know about withdrawal at all, and that can be dangerous because then they may go back on the drug out of fear these symptoms are a result of going off the drug.
So I would say it’s best to assume most problems experienced in withdrawal are somewhat withdrawal related and are likely to subside or improve dramatically over time if someone can stay off of drugs, eat well, rest and recover.
Thanks Julie, excellent points. Yeah, it’s tricky with cold turkey because there are those few instances where it works for some own and can be a big blessing….im glad that happened for you! And then so many cases where people are thrown into cold turkey with no idea about withdrawal and end up in very severe suffering. Both happened to me personally and in one case I got through it, while in the other I ended up being hospitalized again and put on many more drugs.
There is no one size fits all formula for withdrawal obviously, but I am glad you also see this opportunity to raise awareness about how necessary withdrawal and un-diagnosis are.
Going back to prettypurplepill’s comments above, un diagnosing oneself is an important tool for avoiding harm and medicalization. If we can talk about our experiences in normal human being language, others are less likely to pathologize us as well.
Thanks dfk. I agree we should not tell people how we really are if they are going to try to “fix us” or otherwise interfere. Socializing, as you say, is what we need, but with people who are on equal ground and won’t try to get us to “go anywhere” or be “fixed”.
Nomadic: where did you find anything about therapy, recovery or healing in this article? Where do you see suggestions to see therapists or life coaches? Quotes please.
“it would be wise to prepare by relearning basic things like how to have conversations, how to listen (a practice that is clearly declining; why listen to the person in front of me when I could be texting someone else?), how to make friends and meet new people, including and especially those very different from ourselves. There is an emphasis on learning/relearning to do these things in organic ways, outside of contractual relationships.”
Oldhead: Hard to say since we’ve never had a billionaire president with financial power that extends way beyond this country to owning massive amounts of high value real estate in over 20 other nations before. Not to mention all the billionaires on his team…so I don’t think we can be sure things will stay the same.
PrettyPurplePill: That’s absolutely true. Thank you for saying this. I completely agree, we need guidebooks on how to discern if people are trustworthy in this sense. Maybe I will write one.
It took me over a decade to find a therapist I trusted after being forced drugged and in the system. I always interviewed therapists and asked if they believed in diagnoses and drugs and no matter how great they seemed, I didn’t go to any who did.
You are so right about trust issues, and I can personally relate as that was the justified paranoia that made me “mad” to begin with.
Now I tend to be able to find more easily people who get it about the system, and have many many psychiatric survivors who understand in my circles, but that doesn’t mean I can always find someone who is available or willing/able to be supportive.
Thanks for your comments.
Yeah, thanks Beth. I like this comment. Maybe we will see within this country what has already been documented in the world, that people with less access to psychiatry will “get better” more often.
Point taken prettypurplepill. Thanks. You may be right, that many people need to be very careful about who they tell about withdrawal and other experiences. Though it is my hope that we can all find at least someone we feel safe to talk to who won’t pathologize or try to intervene.
That’s great Fiachra. Your experience is very common(albeit lucky you came out well), being in withdrawal and then hospitalized and told it is a relapse, and I think our movement will need serious solidarity in the upcoming regime to protect people.
Sounds like a good idea 🙂
I appreciate that you are thinking about how to get the message out to a wider audience. That helped me get through the coming off process in a way that was inspiring and not purely tedious. Sending good wishes!
That’s great Victoria. Thanks for reading and commenting. My .02 is that it is important to be as honest as we can with ourselves and then choose our battles as to who else is worth investing in the truth with. I don’t believe we owe it to medical professionals to share our truth with them unless we want to, because it can be draining and distract us from taking care of ourselves if we feel we are responsible for telling everyone everything we have learned. But it is a personal choice.
In your journey to stop drugs, I would offer that it’s okay to put yourself first and find practitioners who will support you, if at all possible. Trying to convince doctors to take you seriously or respect you when they don’t naturally do so can be a very frustrating process.
Wishing you the best!
Thank you Knowledgeispower! Interesting you say, “therapy is supposed to be a place for personal growth and development”. Makes me think of how in general people go to therapy out of a desperation of some kind…like you say, in times of a big life change. But many people have been going through constant big life changes for pretty much ever, which often results in overwhelm. So, while the result may be growth and development, I think the initial motivation is usually overwhelm.
I think it’s great when therapists are transparent, especially because more and more people know how the system works so clients are assessing the therapist’s ability to be honest and aware, both with us, and themselves. At least that is my hope. I realize many still go into therapy without this awareness.
The dilemma and necessary evil mentality you describe is only true of some therapists. Many actually believe in diagnoses and drugs, in fact I would say the majority do, since that is how they are trained. They would need to actively go against their schooling and industry to see it as a necessary evil. I’m glad there are those out there who do, though, and it sounds like you are one of them.
Thank you so much Sera for raising this very important topic that affects me and I imagine all of the women in this movement and elsewhere every day of our lives.
I must confess, these issues are a large part of why I have stepped away from the movement to some degree for a little while, to regroup and make sense of my voice and offerings without having them alongside a male’s.
I am that hyper sensitive, too emotionally reactive, thin skinned woman the ‘rock star’ men may have warned you all about. In fact I wrote a blog once about gender issues in this movement but got so much immediate backlash and personal attack that I had to take it down because I didn’t have a lot of support or resources in my life to help me deal with the triggers.
Though, some of the biggest triggers for me are the most “subtle” such as being ignored or excluded.
I grew up with a split family and one half of it was me and two males, so I got used to feeling invisible, being left behind and feeling like an outsider, or simply not connecting with or caring about whatever they were talking about like car brands and sports teams. And not even considering that they might ever care about or listen to what was on my mind. That was always ignored, so I wrote in my “diary” instead.
In this movement I’ve been silenced and critiqued by men who later admitted to me their egos were getting triggered or they were feeling self conscious or self critical when they lashed out at me.
I recognize men have a lot of wounding too, but Sera says it very well in this blog, as do many of the other commenters, it isn’t the same and there are specific types of oppression and silencing women are often so used to, we don’t even bother to speak up about.
Thank you so much Sera, for putting this blog out there.
Thanks Daniel. I found this article entertaining and enlightening as well. To me it points to the fact that if anyone were good enough to be a good therapist they would probably be too good to the point of me idealizing them and thereby eliminating the benefits. Honestly, I don’t really trust therapy and haven’t been able to go in many years, despite occasionally trying to convince myself I “should.” It seems finding friends with therapeutic qualities is easier, freer (not just financially, but in the sense that there is no false paradigm or fake roles being played out, or if there are, they are acknowledged as such) and more honest.
I’m a bit too scared to trust a therapist as re-parenting influence, despite having heard of friends who have supposedly had that experience and benefited from it. Of course, it would be great to be re-parented sometimes, yet I guess I would never be able to let go enough into the “game” to allow it. Hmmm….brings up vulnerable feelings to even think about that…yet something in me just doesn’t believe in therapy for myself I guess, when I’m honest with myself. Bummer. I wish I could.
Very true, Ted, and good point. Though I do know some otherwise intelligent and kind people that seem to think it’s good to give kids psych drugs if it improves their performance in school, hence raising their self esteem or something. And gosh, if so few people were for it, it doesn’t seem like we could possibly have the numbers of kids on them that we do. It is pretty cool to have a unanimous comment section on HuffPo, and not only that, they are almost all clearly anti-psychiatry as a whole. None of them mention a single thing about the possibility of psych drugs as “preventative treatment for developing mental disorders later on” or even any party lines like, “meds can be good for some people but they are over prescribed.” Nope, not one single BS line in the entire comment section. This is a victory!
Thanks Jim! One thing that’s encouraging is that all of the comments (at least so far) are supportive. In the comments section, people also share stories of their own experiences of psychiatric torture as children. The commenters are not only agreeing with the article but criticizing the entire psychiatric system. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such an enlightened string of comments about psychiatry anywhere, even here on MIA where we sometimes feel we are preaching to the choir.
LoveLife32 I wish you the best! We are survivors of such intense “treatment”, which has taken away our basic capacities to be ourselves, yet perhaps ourselves grow even stronger and emerge more powerfully out of that.
Hi Daniel,
I started to be able to read again while I was in the process of withdrawal, towards the end. Writing was a gradual process. I was able to write towards the end of my withdrawal, but my writing didn’t return to being clear and well received until about half a year later, or more. It was a gradual process of being able to think clearly again. Though there were a few odd times while on psych drugs that I wrote things that were coming to me from beyond and were poetic and clear. But I wasn’t able to write good essays or anything until after I was completely off for at least a few months.
I went back to college while I was still in my withdrawal process and it was the first time in my life my writing was received poorly by my teachers, in that they seemed to think I was intrinsically a bad writer, or just didn’t get how to write.
Feeling emotion…well that too was a gradual and complicated one, so it’s hard to say. I gradually felt more emotion with each withdrawal in a way that can’t be quantified.
Being able to relate with others as a relatively “normal” human being…another very tricky one because I emerged from psych drugs and immediately got involved in activism, so I was accepted by that community right away and felt normal there, so that eased me back in, but I think it took me at least several years to feel “normal” around other people, especially since I was so young and my adult identity hadn’t been formed yet.
I think age and how long you were on the drugs are important factors, as well as how much peer support you have, peers meaning people who have been through withdrawal and get it.
Good luck with grad school!!!
What a story Fred. Reminds me of how much we are survivors. It’s great to hear you are doing so well now and were able to come off! And sleep well. That is a big one…I feel so rested and spiritually renewed after sleeping now, compared to when I was on those drugs.
Thanks for reading and sharing your story here.
What a powerful testimonial aria! That a lot of dramatic shifting. So sad that this is what is called “medicine” for “mental health”. I, too, could not read and had a lot of the experiences you described including Akathesia.
Thanks for reading and sharing your story!!!
Well said Alex. Beautifully put. I remember especially how amazing it was to hear music again and be able to feel it. I too was unable to cry. As for laughing, I laughed a lot while on psych drugs and withdrawing, but it was as a way to discharge all of the weird stuck energy I felt. Thanks for sharing your experience and for reading!
Hi Sa,
It was different for different things. Some of these things I was able to do again almost as soon as I started tapering while others took years to gain back. Which specific ones were you most interested in knowing about?
Thanks for reading,
Chaya
What do you mean by “I suspect that there was something else going on with you–a realization, a determination perhaps, that you no longer subscribed to the old you.”? I very much subscribed to the old pre-drugged passionate young me. Sure, there were things I did that were quite immature and that I wouldn’t do again, but I needed to go through them to learn from life. It would have been nicer to have more support that wasn’t pathologizing though. Most of my paranoia and fear came from living in a society that isn’t safe to go through a spiritual emergence in.
Or did you mean the old me was the drugged me?
In any case, I regained these abilities without all that much determination-they all naturally came back to me.
It’s a lot more complex, as you say, since my life was never “normal,” before or after drugging… nor did I really want it to be, haha.
I also agree that as a young adult, there were ways in which maturing helped me to move beyond certain experiences. Getting off psych drugs isn’t the only thing anyone ever needs to do to have the life they want. But I do validate those who feel it is an important step.
Going off psych drugs won’t solve all of life’s ills. I still have plenty of problems in my life- actually more in a way. Lying in bed all day didn’t give me much opportunity to have problems other than my own health and lethargy.
There are all kinds of struggles in my life all the time, which in fact I’m grateful for to some degree. Being drugged out of my mind to eliminate those problems didn’t really work, unless you consider inactivity to be a life goal.
It sounds like your relative is having a different experience. My story isn’t everyone’s story. I wish your relative the best in health, knowledge and true freedom, however that looks for them.
Thanks eng! Yes, it is like being reborn. Actually, in the context of spiritual emergence, I truly had a death experience while on 7 pharmaceuticals (most psych drugs). Being reborn happened so slowly and gradually as I withdrew, recovered from them and recovered from the extreme harm they did to my body and spirit. But that death experience happened for a reason and somehow seemed fated in my life, like something I needed to go through, both to understand the harm done by psych drugs and to understand death more intimately.
Yes, ebl. I hope it’s sooner than later! It is a sorry chapter in human history.
I’m glad you are free to feel now without having to wonder whether your feelings are being manipulated by a drug. Thanks for reading!
Wow, what a story wileywitch. It’s true these drugs affect how we are in relationships and awful that the apathy you experienced on Lithium caused you to be harmed that way.
Yeah, I’m not sure I believe in “mood problems” either. Feelings, moods, they are normal parts of life, even “extreme” ones. There’s extreme stuff going on and we are human so we respond to it with strong feelings. Totally valid, and not diagnosis worthy.
Glad you got out.
Great article Ted! Excellent point about the ease of creating news in small towns. It was pretty easy in Northampton, MA even when we did very small protests with about a dozen people. I’m pretty maxed out at the moment but would like to help you in any way possible once things calm down. Do you have a location yet for San Francisco? At the very least I could spread the word and we could put out an email to the folks who were at Leonard’s memorial as quite a few of them are shock survivors.
Yes, excellent point Cheryl. Sensitive and creative minds are often highly attuned to the unmet needs of us all. I look forward to seeing what we will all continue to create as we step into the future and step up as valuable members of society.
Haha…interesting line of thought Someone Else. I especially like the last part:
What kind of sick society believes a book of stigmatizations is a “bible’?
No offense, but it is possible that if there is a God, that He was angry with a nation that inadvertently elected a president whose family had financed WWII, and seemingly has adopted a book of stigmatizations as a “bible,” while hypocritically claiming they are still a Christian nation.
One other thought Alex… I do believe one way to do what you are suggesting (diversifying professionalism…if I understand correctly) is exactly what I am talking about in this article. I’m not sure if that came across, but it was my intention. Plus I think “craziness” always exists to liberate something…and to liberate, I believe is the highest form of service. I would like to see society value most highly what is in fact most valuable. This would give me a profound sense of “sanity” or living in a real world. I think that might be why it feels so healing to me to witness financial transactions that put high monetary value on liberation/healing arts. It is a visible/tangible expression of a truth.
That’s awesome Alex. It sounds like the gift economy works really well for you. I can relate with the sense that the Universe is taking care of me…I guess though, recently one of the ways the universe took care of me was by telling me to charge more for my offerings. I kept getting nudges in that direction. That’s great if your path is different…I have no attachment to there being one way of doing things and I think both can be sacred. I only want to encourage those who never considered charging for their gifts to realize they can be valued in the “mainstream” economy.
I’m recently learning a lot more about how financial transactions, with money, can be sacred. For example, imagine a wealthy white male CEO paying a low income single mother of 5 kids $1000 to teach him how to make a good meal or grow vegetables in his yard. That was a fantasy I had this morning of how money can be a vehicle for a sacred exchange.
As for “crazy weirdo living on the fringes,” it’s in quotes for a reason. Not to stigmatize anyone living outside the mainstream economy, but actually to de-stigmatize being different. And one way to de-stigmatize being unique, is to remove its association with poverty. I’m sorry if that cam across as stigmatizing to you. I certainly didn’t mean it that way. I believe we should be able to continue to be as “crazy” and weird as we are while still valuing what we offer, so I’m not suggesting anyone has to conform in order to make a living, in fact quite the opposite. And for those who have no interest in money at all, that’s fine too.
I do believe that at this particular stage of evolution, money can help our movement to move from fringe to front and center in the public eye…and that is my main goal because so many more people need our message and I don’t want anything to hold our truth back.
I really appreciate your thoughts about a while new way of doing business and healing. I do agree we need to re-create business in ways that work, and those are quite individual to each person. I honor you for creating your own unique ways.
Thanks for your reflections Monica, and thanks for reading. I do believe that most of what I offer will always be “free” as well. It’s interesting to use the word free, as most of what I freely offer, I actually offer *to* free- to free ideas and parts of myself and others, and it doesn’t feel like an option, but a requirement in order to stay here in this world. My body and mind will completely revolt against me if I don’t give what I have.
Money is only a possible vehicle for freedom, and will never be freedom itself. But I think what you mean by “free” is “at no cost,” which I understand. I still offer most of my work at no cost too and spend many many hours per week working on things to share with the world simply because I must, and I do so without thoughts of money or compensation or even personal acknowledgement.
I definitely hear you about being supported in unexpected ways as I have experienced that too! I’ve been “paid” in all kinds of ways including free vacations, housing, travel, publicity, food, and most importantly faith and peace of mind of knowing I am on a path and the Universe is holding me and guiding me.
Who cares if some people call that woo? 🙂
I agree with you that having a home makes a big difference. In the past five + years of financial struggle (until recently when I have been stepping out of that), the very worst part has been not having a stable home. There are so many ways that impacts my emotions as a sensitive person ranging from not having privacy, having unreasonable demands made on me, having to smell cigarettes/pot/perfume/cologne all the time, constant anxiety of not knowing what to expect day to day…I could list the stresses of not being a homeowner forever. Even having a huge amount of faith that I was on a path and the universe was holding me didn’t resolve any of those problems enough. Having money does make a big difference in at least knowing you have some options.
I hear you, though, that even with a home there are many other expenses.
I love Charles Eisenstein’s work and Sacred Economics was like a bible to me a couple of years ago. What I didn’t take into account entirely, though, was that it was coming from a well off, Ivy League educated, upper middle class, married white male home owner. For his soul, surely he needed to offer some things at no cost. That isn’t to discount its profound wisdom and transcendent value, which can’t be spoken of highly enough…yet I think what Charles needed in order to support his soul was somewhat the opposite of what I have needed. And as you say, we each have a unique path, so only you can know what you need.
Reading the article I linked to above by Mirror Living helped me to put these things into perspective and not feel as though I was “not living in a sacred economy” just because I was charging a reasonable amount for my time (while still working most of my time to serve others without charging at all). Curious what your take was on that article if you had a chance to read it?
I’ve noticed a sacred economy has unfolded in my business as well, especially since I have been charging an amount I can actually live on. The clients that have come to me have been so appreciative and I have been able to give them so much. I have felt a profound sense of soul connection and “soul contract” with them that doesn’t feel all that different from the “gift economy” to be honest. I go into almost complete timeless, faith and trust when working with people, and charging an amount I can live on has allowed me to do that.
I wrote this article to reach out to others who might happen to have a similar path as mine, where income in the form of money can help to balance us and give us what we need while we give others what they need.
I will be curious to hear more about your unfolding journey with money and/or the alternative economies.
Yes…another factor I’ve been thinking about is how we are all psychologically affected when a large portion of our friends and colleagues are on psych drugs. It drastically influences the quality of our relationships and our ability to trust and understand one another, when so many are taking a daily drug which no one, not even the doctor who prescribes it, understands.
These things may be “subtle” compared to, say, a drunk driver running someone over, but they don’t feel subtle to those of us who are awake, alive and sensitive in our interactions. Having a lot of numbed people around us is painful for all of us, whether we are the one being numbed and distorted or not.
Yes, B, I suppose you are right that the ads do in fact work for some people. All the more reason a big part of this issue is for people to learn to think for themselves. Though I do think it is trauma and injustice that cause people to lose their capacity for discernment and want someone else to tell them what to do, be it a doctor or a TV commercial. Either way, it’s a method of zoning out and numbing out with the blind faith that someone else knows best. Of course it is comforting for us as humans to sometimes rely on others to help us…but a healthy individual usually can sense when this “help” is genuine or based on propaganda. Being dumbed down is a sad way to avoid pain, yet the one many are using. I wonder if it is that people actually believe the commercials, or if they are so tired and worn down that they give in in apathy to “going along” with the thing right in front of them.
Anyways, thanks for bringing up the point that many people do buy into TV ads…it can be hard for me to wrap my mind around that, but when I do it makes me very sad.
Cataract, yes, I have certainly seen a huge difference in quality of groups/organizations that take pharma money versus not. Even those that don’t take pharma money have a hard time staying authentic and not reverting to medical model jargon, but for those that do, it’s nearly impossible.
I think what would be even more key than halting direct to consumer advertising would be indirect advertising. The primary way Pharma advertises is through control of media, and “grassroots” or “advocacy” groups which they fund.
The ads themselves read like anti-ads, with more space and time on side effects than anything else, and the tag lines are so stupid and obviously manipulative that I would be embarrassed if I did believe in the mental illness model.
Still, having those highly expensive ads creates a disincentive for publications/shows to have any information critical to Pharma in them.
So, yes, the ads are very problematic, despite being a good way to use some of Pharma money to educate the public on why they SHOULDN’T take psych drugs.
Yes meremortal. It seems so complex to be a parent and navigate the mental health system, or health system at all. I wish we lived in a world that wasn’t so controlled by lies. It’s ever important for parents and everyone to think for themselves and do their own research. It is never wise to assume just because a doctor says something, it is true; most doctors, in fact have been trained out of their common sense.
We must all reclaim our minds and develop our own abilities to discern what is true as we’ve been failed millions too many times expecting any system to do that for us.
Wow, very well said David. Some beautiful statements you make here, that show me you read very deeply into the article and got my message in a profound way–always satisfying!! It’s true, society seems to have these fears of our own condition, of speaking honestly about it and it’s a relief some of us here on this site and elsewhere can come together to discuss that as human beings.
Exactly Steve, the key word is INFORMED. Yet, since society is misinformed, where are we left in terms of choice? Choices are being made primarily out of fear and inaccurate information, thus not really choices and creating further isolation. Thanks for your input, totally agreed. 🙂
You are absolutely right Andrew. Though, perhaps the title of this article might (unintentionally) imply that I would be discussing choice vs force/coercion, in fact I was aiming to discuss choice of the ego versus a higher choice. When society is manipulated through lies disguised as science and medicine intended to make them scared, the choices end up being largely ego choices, choices that come from a sense of isolation and disconnection. An informed choice, as you say, would take the bigger picture into account, and as you say would be based on accurate non-biased facts.
With this information, individuals would have a much greater shot ar making a choice that would take other people into account as well, since none of us are living in a vacuum where we can make choices that affect us alone. The pro-force advocates might use the same argument in favor of forced “treatment”, but since their information has been manipulated, they are coming up with a choice that is harmful and puts society in great danger across the board, on a large scale, which is what we have now.
Thanks for reading and commenting.
Very well said Duane! There are so many ways in which the “personal decision: to take psych drugs affects all of us; as you mention, they are in our drinking water and we have to pay for their harm via taxes and insurance costs. Thanks for bringing up these additional points! We need more blogs on these topics, as of course the decisions of individuals to take psych drugs affect all of us and harm us all when taken as a way of life.
More so, the decision to prescribe these drugs so widely and call them medicine is harming us all, and doctors and drug companies need to take responsibility for the harm they are doing not only to the individuals they prescribe for, but all of us, including themselves.
Thanks Ted. Yes, telling people what you think is right for them personally can be condescending, especially if they haven’t asked, but I think by admitting that we have some self interest in hoping for others to be free from psychiatry is important. Because none of us are free from psychiatry until all are free.
Thanks!
Thank you so much everyone for sharing these beautiful testimonials of Leonard. What a powerful person we have lost. I spent most of the day on Saturday crying in bed at the loss of such an amazing person. Reading these accounts makes me tear up every time. Thank you all for appreciating this peaceful and brilliant man.
Here is what I wrote in my reflections about the first time I met Leonard in 2004: http://chayagrossberg.com/leonard-roy-frank-a-memoriam/
I submitted it here, but in case it takes awhile to post, or isn’t shared.
Thanks for sharing and reading Stephen! I certainly agree in the case of suicide and so many other things, talking to those who have had a similar experience is one of the most healing and connecting things we can do, if not the most.
I had a similar experience at one hospital I was at, where many of us who had had spiritual experiences were able to relate with each other, and it was more effective, humanizing and connecting than anything I got from the counselors. However, at some of the other hospitals I was at, people were treated so poorly and drugged so heavily that there was a similar barrier in us relating to each other. It seems the hospitals often make it difficult for inmates/patients to connect with one another, but when we find ways to, it makes the experience meaningful, and quite different. I still remember people I met at that one hospital almost 15 years ago. I stayed in touch with some by email. Two of them even ended up getting together romantically and stayed together for years afterward. Maybe they are still together today. Peer support all the way!
Yet, I wish ti didn’t have to be called “peer support.” I wish it was just understood that all people need friends, regardless of what their life experiences have been and whether they’ve been given a label.
Thanks Boans. I’m glad you’re going to keep speaking your truth and I do believe that is the first step in getting things to change. The most informal type of peer support aka friendship has been the most healing for a lot of us.
I see what you mean, Boans, I think. When we first emerge from an extreme trauma such as psychiatric abuse or any other abuse, it is nearly impossible to stay silent about it and conform. We may air on the side of speaking up “too much” because we were silenced for so long. I know that was true for me. Once we have integrated some of our experiences it may be easier to stay silent, but I hope we still find ways to speak up. Perhaps we can find more strategic ways to speak up when we aren’t as close to the trauma. Still, I’m glad for everyone who speaks up in whatever way they are able.
Yes, the natural form of peer support is the greatest I think. Would you mind clarifying your last sentence? “In that sense, listening may be a key to healing, until the training into silence is complete.”?
Not sure what you mean. Thanks!
Thanks Steve. Yes, radical self-acceptance would release us from the need for mental illness labels, or at least from an coercive corrective practices or involuntary “treatments.” Completely agree with what you say here about psychiatrists protecting themselves by projecting their power over others and often using inherently non-healing modalities that are called medicine.
Excellent points boans! How cool that you thought so deeply about this and came back with these notes. Those fears make sense to me. I was thinking this morning that being “low drama” or low conflict is an often unrecognized privilege. Any of those 4 things would surely trigger a conflict in most people, especially if they had been experienced in childhood or at other times in a way that was traumatic. Thanks again for reading so thoroughly and for this powerful insight.
I hear you oldhead…tricky. There are some major issues with Facebook for sure, yet so many people use it and find their news and information on there now. For example, I always post my articles on lots of different Facebook groups and that draws new people to this site and to alternatives to corporate sponsored media. I see lots of links to alternative news perspectives on my Facebook newsfeed that I would never see otherwise and get to share both my own writing and other articles of interest with a lot more people than I would otherwise.
I certainly have great respect for those who abstain, as it can be a waste of time and can be a platform for just the kinds of non-productive passive aggressive conflict we are discussing here. Hmmm….maybe we need a public debate about this 😉
Thanks oldhead! You’re right that the mind cannot have a disease. As for Facebook, whether or not it’s an okay thing, most people are using it. Do you abstain?
Well said as always RISN! That is the key. How to democratize conflict and move away from conflict being coopted by business…a hefty task. Is humanity up for it? I think we all want it underneath, we just have no idea how to shift things to get there.
Thanks B. Yes, there’s a lot of stuff in here. I’m glad you brought up passive aggressive behavior. It seems psychiatric drugs/treatment is a passive aggressive approach, no? Rather than addressing the conflict, diagnosing it as an illness is a passive approach. Then a pill can be passively taken to treat this “illness,” without addressing the underlying conflict. There always is one!
It seems our culture, especially the medical model, is rooted in this passive aggression. The medications are even passive aggressive, harming our bodies while making us more passive. It feels good to me to at least name this as conflict avoidance, even if I don’t know how to go about addressing these conflicts all the time.
🙂 Thanks for the comment chrisreed. It’s good to have a reminder of these things, as with the rents currently being the highest in the country, a lot of these values are being priced out of San Francisco, making it less friendly to people without wealth. Still, you are right, the Bay Area is a hub of cutting edge thought and innovation.
Thanks Someone Else. This is what I was thinking too. Alasandra, welcome and thanks for the great article. It is important, though, not to remove politics, economics and law from the picture, which is what we would have to do in order to say the consumer has the power in this case.
We need both abolitionists and reformers. Even if abolition is impractical, we need to hear the gut wrenching stories of abolitionists and respect them. We need to hear from those who have been so harmed by psychiatry and forced treatment that intellectual exercises and even diplomatic strategies are painful.
Reform on the ground if you have the access, resources and strategies; don’t stop dreaming of an end to all torture if you have the vision, passion and strength of spirit.
Maybe an abolitionist has no practical plan that will work. Sometimes, an intention and dream is as powerful or more than a practical plan, or the seed to creating one.
We need both.
Thanks for this Laura. I went to post the article, “Don’t Send Your Kids to the Ivy League” on my high school’s facebook page, “You Know You Went to Stuy If…”and what do you know, it was the very last thing posted by someone else. Under the article was one comment by a fellow alumn of my high school: “There’s some truth to that. More than a few people I have either known personally – or am familiar with – did not attend any Ivy League institution.” Ha! More than a few?…congratulations!
I was one of a small percentage at my high school, Stuyvesant, who did not attend or even apply to any Ivy League colleges, and I have my childhood trauma to thank for that. Since my high school was basically like an Ivy League University (public, but still), I realized a lot of these things early on and chose a small liberal arts school with no tests or grades (Hampshire), but still very expensive, right up there with Harvard in cost and hence in the privilege and lack of diversity of those who attend. Even so I remember feeling very opened up by the students there, because they were more diverse than those who went to my high school in New York City. They were more creative and interesting and generally actually cared about the world, or about something other than grades. I thought being from NYC I must have known everything and seen everything of importance in the world. I thought I came from diversity because I saw all different races all around me all the time. But nearly everyone at my high school had similar types of goals: to “succeed” and “get ahead” and “win” at life. My group of friends who were a bit less competitive seemed to have more interest in making a difference in the world and doing something meaningful. We also tended to cut class more and sit outside in the Spring and we didn’t pull all nighters to study.
But if I had not been so turned off by this culture in high school, or perhaps if I had thought I could compete with these folks, I may have stayed my pre-high school self longer, and competed to go as “high” as I could.
Thanks for sharing this. It is a very important piece of the big picture of “mental health system” failures that includes economy, education and so many other things.
This is very inspiring! Thank you Jaquelin. When you contacted me I was so honored and also had no idea how long you had been working on this project or how it started, so it is great to hear the back story. And I’m sorry there is so little resistance in Mexico. So important that you are starting it and while some people wight not take you seriously due to being younger, others will. Many young people don’t realize how important their voice is and how powerful it actually is. People do listen; we are listening, and very grateful.
I remember having discussions about psych drugs in high school with my friends. It was a different time period-we had pretty much just missed being the stimulant generation, but Prozac was getting its grip on us. I remember long soul searching conversations with my best friend about what we thought about taking these drugs.
So glad you and your friends realize how much your perspective matters.
I just wrote this and think it is relevant to the conversation, especially Daniel’s comment about this being like a poem:
You can choose your battles as a person but as an artist you must not. As an artist you must fight for the freedom of every particle of existence. Your artist self is uncivilized and not diplomatic. If you try to domesticate her by “choosing battles,” she will only grow more fierce, more dangerous in her cage or shell. No pills will calm her, no cliches will quiet her. She demands and deserves full range of your human body to overthrow anything that stands in her way.
What do you mean exactly by the psychiatric housing issue?
Good questions! I like the idea of college students having advanced directives since they are often at an age and stage in life where so many things are shifting, and think you are right on with suggesting perhaps we ALL need them.
BTW my dear friend Michael Bloom (who later committed what I believe to be psych drug induced suicide) went to Rutgers and was first labeled “bipolar” and put on drugs while there.
Of course these things happen at almost all schools.
I hear your frustration Jeffery C. Sorry that is your situation, or at the very least your situation right now. I don’t believe anything is entirely hopeless or impossible and when I was on 7 psych drugs I struggled to eat, brush my teeth, shower, even walk. I hardly left my house for a year. Still, I acknowledge that some folks have been on more drugs for longer and may never find a way out. Which is horrible.
Yes Stephen, good points. And the cool thing is that most of us do have the power to put the brakes on it. We have so much access to information these days that we can certainly exercise our human right to make our own choices. I believe a true doctor or healer wouldn’t be attached to the outcome, but would advise in some cases and trust the “patients” wisdom at least as much as their own. I’m glad you have a faithful practitioner! 🙂
Cool! I just read some of their statements. Not perfect, but certainly a big step forward!!! http://cspnj.org/medication-optimization/ This is their “medication statement” (see the pdf on that page) for anyone interested. Thanks for sharing this!
Good questions…Given the short amount of time I had with her, I don’t know the answers. I don’t even know her name. My understanding is that the idea that psychological distress, or “illnesses,” could be compared to medical illnesses and resolved with pills was wishful thinking that was never shown to be true and obviously turned into a multi-billion dollar and VERY harmful industry, disguised as medicine or “care.” The interesting thing is that most “medical illnesses” aren’t simple, isolated and fully permanently resolvable with pills either. So I think we need a new paradigm of care across the board.
Thanks for listening to Talk With Tenney! 🙂 Would love to know more about the respites in NJ. Do you have any more information?
Thanks!
Yes, Fiachra, I hear you. 12 step meetings can be very helpful and supportive for some. I have found some support at 12 step meetings, at times. I like that those meetings have a solid structure, and of course that you can “take what you like and leave the rest.” The way 12 steps intersect with institutional psychiatry, though, can be very damaging if diagnostic labels are being validated and feared.
Thanks copy_cat! It’s true, the stories can start to all sound the same after awhile…which is the product of a cookie cutter “medical system.” And a lot of folks don’t see that their story is the product of an industry. Yet, underneath, we all have a more unique story, thankfully.
Thanks Jon! Great additional information. It’s helpful to spell these things out. When I was withdrawing from psych drugs I took quite a bit of Valerian and I think I got mildly addicted to it and it eventually caused me insomnia and anxiety rather than restfulness, but I still felt I needed to take it. Insomnia was so bad at times that perhaps it was just the idea I was taking something that I needed.
This is such an interesting conversation because we are all so different and have such different ways of making decisions about our bodies. For quite a long time I have been highly intuitive about what to put into my body, so much so that I don’t even need to do that much research or think too hared about it. But I did a lot in the past, so my intuition is grounded in knowledge of herbs, foods, etc. I think, like most things, we need to study and learn as much as possible and eventually find our own rules.
Thanks for reading and adding this additional helpful categorization.
Thanks Monica! It’s good to know this information about psych drugs lowering histamine.
It’s true, when I was on and withdrawing from psych drugs, there were a lot of foods I was sensitive to that I never was before or after. For me it was mostly sugars, including fruit. Being on Risperdal made me experience blood sugar problems as a skinny 22 year old.
But I also avoided grains and a bunch of other things at that time based on things I was reading and experimenting with.
Another piece of this puzzle is when to make dramatic dietary changes. Sometimes we have reactions to foods if we aren’t used to them or haven’t developed a tolerance for them. This has happened to me when I’ve avoided certain foods for a long time and then suddenly ate them again. I think making big dietary changes should ideally happen well before or well after the withdrawal, though of course this isn’t always possible.
I appreciate your input about supplements. Supplements have become less tolerable to me as I’ve gotten older. When I was withdrawing from psych drugs I was 22-23 and my body was able to take a whole bunch of supplements but now I can hardly take any at all. It really varies by the individual, as you say. Ideally we can all get to a point where we are close enough to our body and intuition that we have a good sense of what is and isn’t good for us. Before I fully developed this refined awareness (or developed such high sensitivity) I tried a lot of different diets and learned a lot by trial and error. Sometimes this trial and error made me lose dangerous amounts of weight or become so fixated on food that I couldn’t engage with others or do anything else. But that was also perhaps what I needed to do at that time for other reasons.
I also experience and believe that food sensitivities and other types of sensitivities can be in some ways connected with consciousness, trauma and emotions. This isn’t to say they aren’t real. They are very real. Yet they also, in my experience, have function and symbolism outside of just our bodily processes. For example, for me, I was on a very specific diet that didn’t allow me to eat what others were eating and that was part of my need to take space from the outer world and retreat for awhile. There’s more to that story, but that’s the short version.
So I’m interested in continuing this discussion of both nutritional sensitivities and how they are connected to other things as well.
Thanks for reading and sharing what you have learned over a long period of study and practice, Monica.
Oh I thought that was you Aleta. I love that we haven’t met but I’m getting to know how your mind works 🙂
Thanks for reading and consistently adding valuable ideas.
Excellent excellent contribution to this conversation RISN! Thank you.
It’s interesting because how do we define WHO get to be the spiritual facilitators? Some spiritual traditions still support monks and nuns to live without money, but it seems these folks have to be doing their spiritual practice with the confines and structures of a patriarchal and hierarchical organized religion.
Even the ones that are less so seem to require full subscription to a set of rules and ways of life to prove that they are committed to the spiritual path.
But I see some of the most revolutionary spiritual leadership going on in social justice work and outside patriarchal religions or hierarchical spiritual traditions.
You are so right that our views and stories of “mental health” and money go hand in hand. They cannot be divorced and as we change one, the other will follow suit.
With crowd funding and other new technology, I have seen communities back individuals in their spiritual and creative pursuits, so perhaps we are moving towards decentralization of “spirituality” after all. Which is important. If our views of spirituality are centralized, they lose diversity, progression, humanity and authenticity.
Of course if they are medicalized and pathologized…they lose everything.
Thanks Alex. This is inspiring. I, too have noticed that my sense of abundance is not always directly related to my bank statement. There are so many ways the world can offer us abundance and I, too, find that there are infinite ways to be “compensated.” Perhaps even the word compensation is a misnomer. Is it always about exchange? I’m not sure. Maybe we receive as much abundance as we are open to. I know it isn’t that simple and I would never use this line of thinking to address someone else’s situation, but in my own experience there are infinite avenues of abundance.
That doesn’t mean it is always easy for me. I have some “poverty consciousness” that says I need to be limited. There need be no shame in admitting that we are limiting our own abundance with our state of mind because that state come from trauma. Part of me is still holding the trauma my grandparents (and many others) experienced escaping genocide, coming to a new country where they didn’t speak the language so well, or know the culture and had little money or ways of making a lot of money. It was a struggle for them, as it has been for many.
I still reenact that struggle sometimes. And other times I let it go, fully trusting the Universe to provide me with my needs, with or without money. Being on a life path where I live almost entirely by intuition, soul purpose and faith, there is less and less room for financial fears, though I still have them and they still affect me sometimes. Because I’m human.
Thanks again for sharing your experience. I think the more of us who share our honest personal experience of relating with money differently, they more inspired and liberated we all become from the cult.
Thanks Oryx. This is a beautiful piece. I especially like the last paragraph.
When I read or hear the terms “mental health community” and “addictions community” it reminds me of a meeting I was at once in Holyoke where someone said they were very uncomfortable with the term “Hispanic community.” It’s interesting that when people are considered “other” they get lumped together by the term “community” i.e. the “deaf community” the “disabled community” the “gay community.”
I think the term community should be reserved for individuals that have a genuine connection to one another, regardless of whether they have a diagnosis or are of a certain race or “othered” category or anything else. Ironically a true community doesn’t discriminate (as I have no doubt you agree and state in this article). I don’t think we have different views on what an actual community is, but the word community as used in this article seems to be a buzz word. Do you agree? What language can we use that is more descriptive? Perhaps addiction survivors and psychiatric survivors? Having a vaguely shared experience of one kind or another doesn’t exactly equal being a “community.”
Right. Forbes didn’t give us any money, if I remember correctly, but they posted a video of our work on their page which did lead to some considerable donations.
If donations are “no strings attached” because someone already likes and trusts what is being done, I think it works better (which requires a lot of volunteer start up energy to show what is being done), but even then there can be complications about what to do with the money, who gets it, distributing it “fairly” etc. I’ve never seen it be simple.
Some people have a lot of patience and/or skill for these things, but I decided to start my own venture because I want to focus on supporting people in my own way and not spend a lot of time in group dynamics where people are fussing over money and other politics. This is just my way for right now though. I see that those groups who receive donations and use them for good are also doing very important things to serve. Both formulas are needed. Larger organizations can take on larger projects. Individuals can focus their energies on supporting others without as many systems and group dynamics to contend with. Neither need be discarded.
Hi Duane. I do see a place for this. There are wealthy people who are or will become interested in this mission.
There are still problems with decision making when a small number of wealthy people are funding something and therefore have the power to yay or nay the decisions made or withdraw their funding.
Are you familiar with Windhorse Associates? They use this model and it does have its drawbacks (but then again they aren’t focused on supporting people to come off psych drugs necessarily). They are an alternative mental health agency that is expensive and usually funded by clients wealthy and/or desperate family members.
Thanks for chiming in!
Well said Julie. I love your way. In the word professional is profess/prophesy, so I think it is more the spirit with which we work that defines “professionalism” which is quite a co-opted word as you illustrate.
That’s great that you found friends and companions in the same boat (or a similar one as I doubt any of us are in the very same boat).
As a writer I resonate with you. Most of my “professional” work is writing and I do most of it for free. I also see no shame whatsoever in getting or giving free things. In fact that is my idea of utopia. Keep on! 🙂
Right. Thanks Jon, I think you articulated this very well. Ultimately, even in completely professional relationships the giving is both ways, even outside the money exchange. For example, if all I were getting out of talking to someone was money and nothing else, I wouldn’t feel so great afterward or consider it ideal work. Part of the reason I stopped going to therapy was because I felt I was giving so much and it felt draining somehow to be in the role of “client”.
But I agree with you that where we are now in our evolution, the compensation framework can sometimes make things simpler because we basically know our role and set aside time to either give or receive attention, and there is something comforting about that. This could be done on a gift basis or through trade and barter as well, but the money system is already set up so for now we sometimes might need to fall back on it.
I think it would be cool to see the exchange as a temporary role playing structure rather than the roles of client and clinician being our identities. Because any of us could be in either role if life’s circumstances were to change.
Thanks Jon. I think this raises the question of what “peer support” is and while there is no solid line between peers and those with specific skills in this area (as they are often the same), there can be people who have more in common in where they are in their lives. Those who are struggling with psychiatric drug withdrawal vs those who have gone through it 3 or more years ago are in very different places. This is hard because we all want to be “peers” and we all are peers in some way, really every single one of us in the human family and there may be one thing I have in common with a psychiatrist and that would make us “peers” in that sense.
But I do believe that the more we have in common with those we are “supporting,” the more supportive it actually is.
Sometimes the peer support of people who are struggling with a similar thing can be challenging because both have such a strong need for support (while both might also have a lot to give). In these cases, someone who might be a “former peer” as in someone who has been in a similar place but no longer is there as much of the time can be useful. Yet, it is important that we stay humble and human and continue to admit our own struggles when they arise so as not to go into the oppressive “non-transparent expert” role that was so damaging to us when we sought help from the system. I believe that this honest relating and transparency is what is most healing, even more so than any skills or techniques.
Thanks Greg. I like this: ‘Maybe one just keeps doing what they passionately believe is right and funding works itself out without conscious planning,” and have found it to be true for the most part.
When I follow my heart and passion, the answers often seem to just come to me. So I do what my intuition tells me most of the time, following that more than a logical or thought out approach.
You are right about profit motive compromising community. I feel that and that is why I wrote this article. The best “help” I have ever gotten in my life has mostly been free from friends who genuinely love me and care about me. There is always a sense of compromise if someone is being paid to care…yet the conundrum exists that we do care but can only be effective in showing that care and personal attention to so many people.
One of the really sad and unfortunate things, catastrophes really, of being debilitated by psychiatric drugs, is we often lose the ability to connect genuinely and fully, which can leave us with a deficit of support in our lives that is mutual. When I was debilitated by psych drugs it was really hard to foster and sustain mutually supportive relationships, which I think are the most valuable.
I had paid professionals supporting me and it always felt compromised. Yet, without some of them I never could have made it through, so there are once again no simple answers.
Thanks for chiming in Sharon. Ideally I think everything would happen outside of the money economy, someday. I don’t feel I’m quite there yet, but have certainly made a lot of progress when living in places with a high level of sharing and free resources such as Portland, OR. I like to focus my work on what is meaningful to me and what compels me, which isn’t always where the dollars are. Yet often when I do this, resources end up following me and things work out.
Could you say more about bitcoin rapidly changing our economy? I, too, feel inspired by alternative currencies such as bitcoin and others, yet they still seem to be too much on the fringes to be helping meet most peoples’ basic needs. I do feel optimistic, though, that the gift economy and alternative currencies are on the rise and dramatically changing things, especially how we do “business.”
Thanks John… Grants can be a good way to go. They have their limitations, but so does every source of funding, even being payed privately and directly by those we work with, as this article discusses. There are pros and cons to both. With grants, support can be free or low cost to those suffering, which it should be. Yet grants themselves can be time consuming and oftentimes haven’t been sustainable for me. Still, the Freedom Center and other groups I’ve worked with had a lot of success providing grant funded services to the public and creating authentic community…but we also had tons of volunteers, which eventually became unsustainable for most of us. Was great while it lasted though, in many ways.
Thank you so much kimmyo! I totally agree that the money and resources need to go back to those we are working with as well. That was one thing I left out of this article-the need for compensation for those who are coming off. They are doing the even harder work at this point (as we know having done it ourselves). I agree it is a conundrum, as are most things involving money if we are honest with ourselves. This is why I support people to receive disability income and other government assistance even if they don’t consider themselves disabled or don’t want to be seen that way. But like all things it’s an individual decision.
The cool thing is that I believe we all end up getting “compensated” in various ways if we are open to it, whether in money or not, whether directly or indirectly for the good we do. Doing good work from our heart is also its own reward and the good energy comes back to us. Which I doubt very many psychiatrists could say.
Thank you so much Alex! This comment means a lot to me. I, too, felt so scared of being criticized and scrutinized for a long time, and still can feel that way sometimes, but it is freeing, as you say, to share our stories anyway.
I think the more I share, the less scared I am, in part because I’ve gotten enough encouragement and positive feedback that I know I won’t be rejected by EVERYONE, but also because the more of my story I share publicly, the harder it is for anyone to legitimately pigeon hole me or over simplify my reality.
Do you have a place we can read you story?
Thanks Someone Else. You could blog anonymously with a pseudonym. I completely agree it’s important to protect your child’s privacy. How can Facebook stop you from creating a page with a pseudonym? You can create a new email address with a pseudonym and use that to create a new facebook account. Another possible option would be to create a pseudonym AND refer to the person who was abused as a friend/family friend’s child or something of that nature and conceal as many details as possible that would identify you. It certainly is a lot harder.
When blogging with your own name, you may be able to blog about certain things that just pertain to you and not your child, or speak in vague terms that don’t identify any of your child’s experiences, but just that you were in turmoil due to “something” that hurt your child. These are just some brainstorming ideas since you asked for advice, but I am sure you have the expert judgement on which would work in your particular situation.
Thanks for sharing your concerns about anonymity and privacy here. I struggle with similar things and there are things about my family I don’t write publicly, which is a bummer but just where I am at right now. So one more piece of advice when blogging publicly is to pace yourself and go as slowly as you need to. Try revealing a little bit and see how you feel, whether it feels safe. I do a lot of writing that I never share with anyone but hope to someday when I’m ready.
“turning a blind eye in favor of one’s own comfort in one situation” is a good way to put it, certainly done in both the animal industries and psychiatric industry.
Thanks Sera! Just curious, when you say you’re not an animal person, do you mean recreational/pets/domesticated animals or all animals? I wasn’t an animal person for a long time, but then realized I wasn’t a “domesticated animal person.” Even though some domesticated animals seem happy, cute and are well loved, they didn’t have a choice in their domestication and were bred to have traits humans would find endearing, which is similar in my mind to being forced into “treatment” to make oneself more pleasing, calm, cute, quiet, slow, non-aggressive and sweet for people who are scared of the complexity of the full being as it naturally is.
I feel empowered, strengthened, free and happy around most wild animals (and un-psychiatrized people) on the other hand, so I think ironically my “non-animal” personhood was animal empathy in disguise. And the conviction that we should all live in our strongest, most empowered and free state.
Thanks Sera! Great article. Also, thanks for comparing these issues to animal abuse. This is an issue that I would like to see spoken of far more, since what we do to animals oftentimes mirrors what we do to one another, or the “weaker” or less advantaged people, or those we want to control. http://www.globallookingglass.com/2013/03/20/companion-animals-an-apology-to-holly/
I can relate with making some “bad decisions” on my own, but decisions that left me with energy to make better ones, versus psychiatry’s decisions which left me with little energy at all.
I like this:
Hands down, the most frequently asked question I hear when working with providers is how to ‘motivate’ people who seem unmotivated. In more instances than not, that question should be reframed to, “How do I support this person to heal a broken spirit so they can even begin to care about moving toward anything again?”
Well said Someone Else! Thank you. I hope your dreams come true too. I believe in dreams and believe they will all come true, one way or another. Thanks for reading.
Thanks Joey! “As if” is right! Have your father or best friend read this website or any of the other research on the long term effects of psych drugs? Hugs to you my friend.
Thank you Lia. This is very well written. Sad that you weren’t able to communicate as well with your father before he died. This is one of the tragedies of being drugged into a stupor. I’m so glad you lived to tell your story though!
Thanks Maria!
“Drug profitability requires three parties to work together – drug companies to make the drugs, psychiatrists to prescribe them and consumers to take them.”
One addition: insurance companies to pay for them.
And another: Government to work hand in hand with insurance companies.
Thanks for sharing your body sensations and the defensiveness you feel when reading these comments. Hearing that, I feel more open towards you. I imagine you feel some things similar to how many of the commenters feel and have some other perspectives or experiences that perhaps others are unfamiliar with or see as contributing to the system that hurt them. Imagining you feeling angry and defensive, I feel more open to you as a human being. Mnay of us, myself included put up a front of attacks rather than saying we feel angry and defensive, which might open up a more companionable dialogue. I imagine many psychiatrists, therapists and a while host of other professionals in a variety of fields are trained not to share their feelings, in essence trained out of their humanity. Imagine psychiatrists had to use Non-Violent communication. That would mean no labeling, only identifying feelings and needs and making requests. When you are interpreting you can say “I’m imagining…” or “I’m telling myself…” None of us are perfect at communicating but re-humanizing all experiences is important to me. (Again if you need to protect yourself from violence, that is another conversation, but it isn’t the majority of cases we are talking about, I don;t think). If I were a psychiatrist and you were my patient, I could read: “I feel my neck and head muscles tightened and get angry and defensive and end up thinking that was the goal of the writer, whether it was or not, and that doesn’t help me converse,” and label you paranoid or delusional. But I’m not, so I will just call you a human being. I could call you mentally ill, but it’s not my style. I like that you feel angry because I imagine it might help you to understand how enraging this labeling system is for many people.
Why is it hard for you to respond? Rather than put it on the other person and label them narrow and enraged, can you describe your experience of the difficulty of responding?
Thanks for your honesty Mark. I was harmed the most by psychiatrists who are thoughtful and considered, because I trusted them a little bit more than the others. The concern I have with this line of thinking is that the psychiatrists and community aren’t taking responsibility for their part. If you need someone to be on a drugs in order to connect with them, do you ever ask yourself what might be going on with you? Any relationship between 2 individuals should not label one as mentally ill and the other as a doctor. If psychiatrists are doctors of the soul (the literal meaning), why do they need someone to be on a drug in order to love them?
I do appreciate your acknowledgment that suffering can have value. I’ve never found taking a pill to help me work through any issues more easily though. For me it has always been the opposite. On a pill the issues get all muddled up and there are more problems that the pill creates so the whole thing just becomes a huge mess. Others may SEE a person on a pill as being more able to work through things, but it might be a superficial judgement. For me the only time I wasn’t able to shower or take care of myself was when I was on psych drugs.
Perhaps what is needed is a higher level of faith. If we believe those we work with need a pill to work things through, perhaps we don’t hold enough confidence in the human spirit to actually support them. There may actually be enough love in your heart to open up to anyone. My understanding is that love is what heals, which you also elude to. The love needs to be huge to be healing.
If we are too scared to open up to someone because they are violent, smelly, incoherent or something else, that is valid. Yet our own fear is part of the picture. We may feel vulnerable and need to protect ourselves. Our own fears may be getting triggered. We may need to humbly admit we are not capable of helping everyone and do what is necessary to protect ourselves. Let’s just admit when we need to do that.
I love that Fred! Thanks. I’m working to embrace this paradox, as it is so necessary when discussing ANY “groupings.” It is incredibly challenging to talk about gender. class, race and other life experience categories without using language that makes inaccurate assumptions, yet, I do believe it is better than not talking about these things at all. Thanks for your comments!
Thanks Corrine!! It means a lot to me to read these words. I love how we can pick up on what others have to offer. Thank you for seeing that in me. Where did we meet?
Thanks Melodee!
“For me, when I have those thoughts or feelings, it’s often a sign that something isn’t getting communicated, or that something in my life needs attending to in a serious way. Then my task is to figure out what that is, and how to attend to it — often not an easy thing.”
Yesss!!!
Yeah, it’s hard to say because the mental health system can create a learned helplessness that reduces people’s confidence. That definitely happened to me.
I’m glad you were able to live above it and not kill yourself.
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Maybe for a sense of inclusion or camaraderie with others who have that label? Maybe so others will view them with compassion (it may not usually work that way, but in certain circles it does). It’s pretty easy to get a label though…can’t imagine needing to beg for one. What do you think?
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Interesting streetphotobeing. There have been studies that show a knowing someone has a diagnostic label lowers compassion and contributes to dehumanization, less empathy for the person with a label’s suffering etc.
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Thanks Rosalee. Sounds like you listened to the podcast which I appreciate!
I love holy basil/tulsi for calming and adrenals and people have found it helpful in psych drug withdrawal as well, along with my favorite, oatstraw.
I have never found labels or disorder language helpful myself either though sometimes I resonate with the idea of feeling “sick” whether long term or acutely for a short while. Not in a pathologizing sense like many people use it, but more like I have the flu. It’s weird how with mental illness labels “sick” sounds like a degrading insult to me. But I’m not sure everyone thinks of it that way. Either way I only find it useful to talk to myself that way and would never want that label put on me by anyone else.
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Yes, definitely. Sometimes it baffles me when people share my views so much on some things and not so much on others regarding psychiatry.
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Kindredspirit, same here. I relate with that part about self care a lot also.
I agree with you too about the language, yet so many people use that language to describe their experience, so it’s good to have people who can speak that language AND talk about things in a nuanced way. It isn’t my framework either, yet so much of what Jesse shares still resonates with me..
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Thanks for letting us know Nijinsky. Not sure if I have editing powers…
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Thanks Fiachra. Yeah, twitter is pretty cool. Sometimes better than Facebook for certain things. Took me awhile to figure that out. Join us there if you’d like.
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Interesting perspective Something Else. It seems some people have an easier time fitting in to society’s prescribed frameworks. it can definitely be a struggle to be an artist in this world, yet like you say, we are so needed.
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Rachel, What time period are you referring to?
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Bradford, definitely!
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Steve: yeah, depends whether the Bible is seen as a holy book or a false system of coercion and social control. It’s probably both, but the DSM is severely lacking in the holy factor.
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Miranda-totally!
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Well said Someone Else. Yeah, psychiatry is a major delusion of grandeur in itself.
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Cat Night, you’re right about the prison industrial complex. Many many are on psych drugs there too. And it is definitely obviously an extremely racist institution and extremely unjust. I agree. Thanks for bringing this up.
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Thanks. Good article. I have thought about this a lot as what is called the autism spectrum seems to keep including more and more things, many of which seem in opposite ends of a spectrum. Like everything that is either highly sensitive OR highly insensitive to anything can be considered on the spectrum.
I used to think I was the opposite of autistic, as I tend to be hyper aware of other people, hyper sensitive to surroundings. But now those traits are also discussed as being on the autistic spectrum.
I think if the label helps someone get services and accommodations, then it has a use but I definitely don’t know what people are referring to when they identify as autistic
as it seems to encompass people with both very high and very low levels of different types of sensitivities.
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Thank you Alex!
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Thanks madmom.
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Thank you oldhead.
Yeah, I think there are as many “bibles” as there are people probably…or more.
We all have different books that can serve as our bibles at different times and it helps to stretch our imagination about what a “bible” can be (maybe not as far as the dsm tho!) . Especially to include things written by marginalized/oppressed groups.
I’m sure they do have the dsm in there-but in the doctors offices, not floating around the ward.
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Thanks Ekaterina,
It starts in January 2019! excited that you joined. As for sleep I agree with the suggestions of others here.
Here are a few other things that may help:
https://chayagrossberg.com/herbs-and-supplement-for-anxiety/
I also like skullcap, passionflower and hops for sleep.
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Thanks Margaret. I certainly drank copious amounts of water when on psych drugs, to the point that my psychiatrist and other doctors were concerned my problems were caused by water toxicity. Unfortunately, it didn’t flush the drugs out of my system, or at least not enough to prevent them from harming me.
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Thanks S and T.
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I made this video about why I don’t say mental health.
https://chayagrossberg.com/mental-health/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg2_N1P8Qi8
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From Corinna West who can’t remember her MIA password and sent this to me privately:
have the read this book? https://hsperson.com/
and you know about cytochrome P450 liver enzymes? About 10% of caucasians just can’t process the psych drugs and they build up to toxic levels. There’s genetic tests so you can tell ahead of time if you are a “High metabolizer” or low metabolizer but they’re not used clinically yet for some reason.
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OK, it doesn’t seem to be in response to anything being discussed though.
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Boans, wow that is terrible. I haven’t heard of it in the US but who knows? How do they do it? If patients know that is possible, can’t they avoid consuming anything given to them by their psychiatrist? Or do they get family members complicit in this too? Sounds terrilbe!!!
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yep…
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There have been several new comments today but I can’t find them.
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Thank Steve, that would be great.
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BTW I subscribed to comments on this blog via MIA but haven’t gotten them emailed to me, so I am having a hard time keeping up with responding and finding the new ones. Steve M, or someone at MIA, do you know why the subscription feature didn’t work? It’s worked for me in the past.
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I appreciate this comment Steve Spiegel. BTW I subscribed to comments on this blog via MIA but haven’t gotten them emailed to me, so I am havinga hard time keeping up with responding and finding the new ones. Steve M, or someone at MIA, do you know why the subscription feature didn’t work? It’s worked for me in the past.
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John, that’s cool. Have you made any videos or blogs yourself? That might be an avenue to get your story out. You could even submit to this very website.
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ConcernedCarer, that makes sense.
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Thank you eccentric. That makes sense. Would you clarify for me which parts you relate to and which feel alienating? My understanding is that as an atheist you don’t believe in a God or gods, though I still don’t know your belief system.
I think the term God means so many different things to different people and can be religious or just an overall sense that there is a force of good. Either way, I get that you don’t believe in it, but I am curious to know what that means to you.
Same with the word soul. What does it mean to you and what about it is alienating? Does it seem to be associated with a particular religious belief?
To me it is a sense of who I am beyond my body, so perhaps you don’t believe that we are anything beyond our bodies? I don’t know. Honestly, it’s like if someone tells me they have a certain diagnosis, I want to know what that means to them, even if I have stereotypes about what it may mean.
Perhaps I could have clarified in this piece what I meant by soul, and I wonder if that would have been more or less alienating to you and possibly others?
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Wow, thank you Alex! That’s a beautiful and moving reflection. Very validating to me and I appreciate it.
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John, again, I agree with you 1000%. There are already hundreds of thousands of people on psych drugs and many of them can’t get off when they try, even though they realize the diagnoses are not valid.
I think you are right though. Undiagnosing is a huge piece- especially in allocating funds towards resources for people in withdrawal. And of course for not getting people on in the first place.
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John, I completely agree with you. If you read any of my other articles you will see that. The purpose of this article and the ideas behind it, is to support people in freeing themselves from psychiatric drugs. I talk to people regularly who know everything you (and I ) are saying about the politics, but are still struggling immensely with psychiatric drugs withdrawal for years.
So there’s knowing what is going on and then what are we going to do about it? Many people have been made too sick by psychiatry to go out and try to change the system. They can barely get out of bed or even read/write. That’s where I was at too.
I completely agree with all of your points. You are preaching to the choir. If you read my other blogs you’ll understand where I’m coming from. I’ve been saying all the things you are writing here for almost 2 decades now.
But we need to also meet people where they are at, and offer practical steps to empowerment.
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Thanks ebl. And congrats!
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John,
You’re right. The quest for parental approval is so insidious. Have you read/watched any of Daniel Mackler’s work on breaking from parents?
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Thanks Steve S!
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ConcernedCarer, I pretty much agree with you. When I say “designed” I do not mean in a benevolent way. Yes, they were discovered, but then they were tweaked into their “medication” form. I don’t credit these drugs with anything helpful either.
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markps2 I agree. Though the ones marketed as medications are designed to make people feel better withinthe first few months so that they will stay on them, and stay straightjacketed, and more importantly so that they will appear to be “working” in drug trials.
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swarajit, sorry to hear things are so bad in India and that there isn’t much of a movement. Thanks for raising awareness over there!
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This comment seems like spam.
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Thanks out. I think you are right. The drugging is a part of the picture of oppression, but not the whole thing. In some ways it is a big part because it does leave people so intensely vulnerable and out of control of their own body and mind. But then so do abuse and neglect in other ways.
I think in order to achieve freedom from psych drugs and overall integration, there are definitely bigger pictures of abuse that need to be considered. Everything is so interconnected.
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Vanilla, I think this is an excellent point. Also, everyone, please excuse my slow responses, as we are having a smoke storm here in the PNW and it’s been hard for me to think clearly…no comparison intended.
But, yeah, vanilla, I resonate with what you are saying. Even from a young age, the idea of a quick fix, or burying my emotions and problems with pills did not sound like a good idea to me. I personally was forced onto psych drugs and then was in withdrawal without knowing it and reluctantly went on more because I was in such extreme panic. Then I lost my will and ability to discern from the drugs, and ended up taking more “consensually”. But if someone spikes your drink and you then have consensual sex, it that truly consensual? Of course not.
So yeah, it’s tricky how to not blame people for all the circumstances that are out of their control while also offering a path with more integrity.
I personally am not telling anyone else what to do or assessing their behavior or choices, since I don’t see that as my role in other people’s lives. I would like to offer helpful support for those who want freedom from psychiatry. Those who WANT freedom is the key part.
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Thanks Dru <3
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rasselas, I’ve wondered about that as well, whether the drugs damaged my emotional range, even after all this time.
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Steve S. I think you’re right. Having lots of compassion for my parents as a child made it harder for me to detach. I think I felt I had to protect my younger sibling too. They were better at raging and seeing the family as crazy, while I was getting drained feeling compassion for everyone. Definitely took its toll.
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Well said Steve M. Thanks. It’s true that while we can understand it, working through it is more of a challenge.
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John, Yes there is a lot of scapegoating that happens.
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Thank you so much Hugh.
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Janehhhh, It was a local zine that doesn’t exist yet, so I’m sure you wouldn’t have heard of it. I’m not trying to demonize the people making this zine as I don’t know them at all. I might even like to get to know them, and know better their intentions.
I used this as an example, because it prompted these thoughts, but I’ve heard similar words so many times, that the zine person was just another person saying the same party lines as thousands of others.
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Thanks Ally. I see what you mean in a way, because sometimes when I have been abused by family members, or others, I have had a strong need to label them somehow. I often go to, “they are a bad person”, which is interesting because I never used to believe people could be inherently bad.
I still don’t actually believe that people are simply bad. Abusive people became that way for a multitude of reasons, yet sometimes I just want to call them bad, because they hurt me so much and analyzing “why” they did so puts me into empathy and considering their situation instead of my own. For me this is usually not healthy at all.
If I decide they are bad people, I can simply stay away from them and focus on bettering my own life, healing and not being abused anymore.
So I think there’s a time and place, especially for those who were conditioned to be empathic, to simply label another person. It doesn’t mean they necessarily have an intrinsic disorder or that it could never be reversed, but it can be a good protective instinct, and a reasonable prediction. People can change, I believe, but after a certain point, I’m not holding my breath, and if I were to do so, it would make ME crazy.
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Gabi and Julie, also I think it can sometimes be easier for someone who has less at stake to go along with someone’s story, versus their significant other or family member, who is probably tied into the whole drama much more. Even having an attachment to the outcome can be a hindrance in these circumstances.
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Julie, I remember when I was first in the hospital system many years ago (in 2001 to be exact), I told my friends that, “There’s this system,” and when they asked if I trusted my parents to help me, I said, “They’re part of the system.” To them I was psychotic, but when I look back now, I knew exactly what was going on. I knew there was a totally rigged system, and like I said, this was in 2001, before you could do real research on the internet, before anyone in my world (and most of the world) knew or talked about big pharma. It was when people still thought psych drugs were medicine,
Often the one we call psychotic is in some way ahead of the curve in their awareness.
It’s like that Shlomo Riskin Quote: “When you’re one step ahead of the crowd you’re a genius. When you’re two steps ahead, you’re a crackpot.”
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Lavendersage, I love this, and I do know people who do theater improv and who are much better than the average person at being with those in “altered states”.
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Well said Rachel.
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Excellent points Julie.
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Thanks Huami. Guess I’m preaching to the choir here. I thought I’d get some push back on this one.
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Rachel, definitely. They view marijuana as invading their turf too, and even herbs and supplements, trying to make them seem illegitimate or unscientific, when most of them are far more scientific and safe than their drugs.
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Thanks Stella. Thank you for sharing your story and what has helped you.
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Thanks Julie, good to know.
In emergencies, with people who have health challenges, psych drugs can also instantly kill them such as in this case:
http://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article198930799.html
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Thank you Ally! I’m curious, do you think the term neurodivergent is meaningful or accurate? To me it sounds like yet another euphemism, that may or may not mean anything in particular. Perhaps some people identify with it, but without a set standard for “normal” or “mentally healthy” I’m not sure how we can even know what neurodivergent is. And more importantly, I don’t want a standard for mentally healthy as I think it would severely limit creativity, connection and healing.
I totally agree with you about iatrogenesis and how little social support there is, how few people even know about it or understand it, even now.
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Internalized oppression.
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Hadn’t thought of that one Julie.
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Thanks Igor. I never felt good about that book. I heard rumors it was sponsored by pharma, like they paid her to write it, though I don’t know for sure. I wouldn’t be surprised though. Even the phrase “my drugs” or “my meds” bothers me because people identify with them as “theirs” which doesn’t seem healthy, like it creates an attachment.
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When I first was told about them in the 90s, it was always, “the medication”.
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Steve, yep. I’m glad more and more people are calling them drugs lately.
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Slaying the dragon, yes, you’re right. It’s still dishonest and misleading.
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Yes gabi, I agree and thanks for your comment. As far as we know all or almost all of the mass shooters in recent years were on psych drugs. CCHR has a list of all of them if you google it.
I do think in emergencies, drugs can be helpful, when taken as a one time thing, or maybe for a few days to help some one calm down or sleep if there’s an emergency need for sedation.
There may be herbs and less dangerous techniques that can work too. Recently a young woman in my town died of a chemical restraint, that was a benzo.
Some herbs are extremely calming and sedating, and safer than benzos. An expert herbalist would know more than me, even while I’ve been studying and using herbs for a long time. There are those who know more. Sometimes even good food can be enough to stop violent behavior. Common sense often goes out the window in emergency moments.
Here’s something I wrote with some alternatives:
https://chayagrossberg.com/alternatives-chemical-restraints/
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Well put Slaying the Dragon. Don’t you think the term “meds” came about with psychiatry because medicine is so obviously an inaccurate term? “Meds” is a euphemism, and feels a little less dishonest than medicine somehow.
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Yeah, we can say whatever we want but if the law disagrees we have a real issue. If “science” disagrees, we have a social issue because “science” is waaaaay more political than people would like to admit.
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Sticks and stones can break my bones but names will never hurt me… What we are inaccurately called only matters if it is then considered “science” or worse, law.
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Thank Steve! Good luck in speaking about it with others. Somehow facts seem less relevant in these conversations than they should be.
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Thanks Tom.
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Hmmm…are you threatened because you don’t take medicine?
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Lavendersage, thanks for your comment. Listening to our gut is so important in making medical decisions.
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Sylvain, thanks for your comment. I agree with you that people have a hard time being honest with themselves. On one hand I think you are right, that there is a personal responsibility that is being averted.
On the other hand, I don’t think people need to take total responsibility for everything in their lives OR put the responsibility on diagnoses and drugs if they are able to hold complexity. In fact, I think if people were able to accept that they don’t actually know why they lived, or the exact cause of their problems, and acknowledge that there were/are a bunch of different possibilities, explanations and forces at play, they might be able to find peace without dishonestly clinging to an unscientific or untrue explanation.
If it’s a choice between saying it’s all their responsibility or all a diagnosis and a drug, many people will choose a diagnosis drug…but if it’a also socioeconomics, trauma, mystery, fate, etc etc…then there doesn’t need to be one answer. To me that is more honest, and even more scientific.
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Thanks Fiachra. I’m glad you’re still alive to tell your story.
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This blog got quoted in one called “A Therapist Explains What Happens When People Try To Quit Psychiatric Meds”
Here are the links, if you want to see public comments or join in these conversations:
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/a-therapist-explains-what-happens-when-people-try-to-quit-psychiatric-meds_042018
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-06/therapist-explains-what-happens-when-people-try-quit-psychiatric-meds
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2018/04/04/therapist-explains-what-happens-when-people-try-to-quit-psychiatric-meds/
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Thanks Svava. Good to hear that you are interested in this. Keep us posted on your ideas.
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Thanks so much S_Randolph. I forgot to mention that I work with people all over the world. Almost all of my work is by phone or video chat. You can surely refer anyone to me from your local area or anywhere at all. That’s great that you work with folks as a lawyer and I will surely keep you in mind if anyone in the Chicago area reaches out to me.
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Thank you Camille. I hear you and know a lot of people in similar shoes. When you’ve been on the drugs for a long time sometimes it takes a lot more support and resources than most people have access to. Hopefully someday high quality detox centers will be freely available to all. Thanks for your comment.
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Thank you so much for your supportive comment JanCarol. Yes, there is lots of info online, both helpful and not, so I aim to help people find the best info for where they are currently at and inplement it in ways that are personally relevant. Thanks again and I’m glad you are helping people at survivingantidepressants. I often link to that site on my blog.
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Hi Rachel, I do think I could help you find ways to absorb nutrients. There are a lot of alternatives to supplements in liquid, herbal and/or food based forms that we could talk about. I wish you the best! Molasses is a good idea from Steve and if you take it with vitamin c rich foods such as fruit or lemon juice, the iron will be better absorbed. I have a lot of other ideas for you for when we talk.
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Hi Rachel, I’m sorry to hear this. It can take awhile to recover from all of this. Where are you located? Are you taking any supplements for the anemia?
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Yes I am tinabud. Thanks.
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Seriously. Thanks Steve <3
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Thanks so much Alex.
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Thanks Fiachra. I think you’re right.
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Tireless fighter, I get your point and it has some validity. Yet, if you look for everything to be “therapy, healing, life coaching and motivationalism” you can make any simple human act of striving to survive or live well into your idea of a demon.
People are doing their best and sometimes have the time/energy/resources to fight and other times are doing what they can to survive and live their lives the best way they can.
As Steve said, living well is the best revenge. Your point that taking action is necessary is valid though.
I do appreciate where you are coming from, and agree that systemic injustice is at the root of it all and denying that will not “heal” anything. So thanks for your relentless belaboring of this point.
It was also the direction of this article, which had nothing to do with therapy, life coaches etc etc. but rather acknowledging the injustice and addressing it.
We likely have different strategies, since I don’t tend to believe in violent retaliation, though many have the impulse for revenge.
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Thanks Steve. You say this well and I completely agree. Some very powerful people like Oprah Winfrey come from abusive childhoods/backgrounds.
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Hi Tirelessfighter. I disagree. Hitting children is commonplace and most people do not end up enforced by the law since hitting children is legal as long as it isn’t “severe” or leaving heavy bruises.
Are you saying well off educated people don’t hit children? That is simply not true.
It seems you didn’t read what I wrote about healing coming from NOT continuing to live in denial. That was the whole point.
Saying someone is completely off base and then not referring to what was actually written here isn’t helpful.
I agree with some of what you say at the end here about choosing not to collaborate with perpetrators…but that is not contradictory to what I wrote.
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Definitely a sign you’re onto something.
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Yetanotheraccount, thanks for your point about NAMI.
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Thanks Steve. Totally agree and well said. Yes, social and familial abuse go hand and hand. I read something really good about that recently that I will need to send you. It was about how Hitler was so severely abused and treated as subhuman by his family. It talked about how we often replicate the abuse we experience in our families and then expect/accept that treatment from society (or perpetuate it, depending on the level of socioeconomic power).
A lot of survivors of abuse in childhood go on to have abusive conditions at their jobs, but it just seems normal or comfortable as that was all they/we knew.
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Hi Fred,
That quote is a perfect example of why no one can be outcast as fundamentally “psychiatrically or psychologically ill”. How could any soul be a mistake that needs to be permanently drugged into compliance?
Thanks for checking out my work. I appreciate your recognition.
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Thanks someoneelse. Well put.
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That must have been scary yetanotheraccount.
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Thanks mhadvocate. Yes abuse definitely has been integrated into our systems of government.
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Yetanotheraccount- for sure, there are all kinds of emotional and mental abuse children endure as well, and again the “blame” for their reaction is falsely placed on some kind of yet to be discovered mental imbalance.
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John-yep.
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Yetanotheraccount, yes the mythology we are told.
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Thanks Steve. I absolutely agree.
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“The cycle goes on, until a true psychiatry (literally: medicine of the soul/psyche) emerges, puts down its tools of silencing and advocates for us all to speak out about who hit us, when, where and how often.”
The word psychiatry means medicine or healing/treatment of the soul. The “reformed psychiatry” is the one we see now-corrupted by all the things you mention.
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Thanks Julie! I love this!
So many previously ordinary ways of relating are falling out of style in favor of Facebook, texting and other digital means that don’t provide the same emotional release and satisfaction as the old fashioned ways… studies have shown that we need to actually talk to balance experience emotional connection in interactions to some degree.
I’m working on letting go of filler and opening to connections with people who want to relate in the real world. They do still exist but I had to get off Facebook to find them!
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Thanks samruck2. I think you’re right!
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Kallena,
Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I do think it’s up to chance…or a mystery of some kind. I was brought up that therapy is “the” answer, kind of the way I was brought up that the doctor has the answer. So it’s important to question these assumptions and find our own way, if that is not the best path for our individual selves.
That’s cool that you had a good experience.
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Thanks CatNight! I like the way you said this. Are you an ex-therapist?
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Hi Steve. Thanks for sharing your experience. Studies have certainly showed that “lay people”, or those without any psychology training can help people at least as successfully as those with it. Soteria is a great example of that, as well as all forms of peer support.
One question that arises, is whether some therapists are able to not get triggered for socioeconomic reasons, or simply because they’ve had less trauma.
Is the therapist always a “higher rank” in society than the client? Is this necessary?
I know lots of therapists who have been through very severe trauma themselves and would never want their clients to know this because somehow they fear it would take away from their professional image.
Gender, race, class (and class history), trauma history of the therapist are all hugely relevant, but we can only see some of that on the surface.
This is a topic I may write another blog on.
My therapist I write about in this blog is black, living in a primarily white town and told me she has a chronic autoimmune illness. These were some reasons I trusted her, because I knew she hadn’t had an entirely easy life, and therefore could possible relate with my suffering in some way.
It also made it harder for me to objectify her. For example, when black men were murdered by cops, and I knew she has black sons, I couldn’t help but wonder how she was doing with that.
In some ways therapy requires an objectification of the therapist. If we see them too much as a person, it’s hard to indulge in a conversation that is only about ourselves. At least for me.
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Wow dfk! Did you save that piece of paper? Lol.
I agree so much that it’s expressing our feelings in a way that feels safe is what is therapeutic. Advice is often annoying or simply not on point.
Occasionally I have gotten good advice from therapists or friends. But usually when I was asking for the advice.
Somehow bad advice from a therapist is so much more annoying and aggravating than from a friend.
This whole conversation is making me feel really sorry for therapists because it seems like they can only do wrong… And are bound to fail… Yet the average person is much less critical of therapists and the system than we are here on Mia.
One therapist randomly suggested that I might want to visit someone who I had told her I need to stay away from for my safety. And we weren’t even talking about this person. I mentioned wanting to travel to the state they happen to live in, and she suggested maybe I want to see them. This was highly triggering since that person has been emotionally anusive to me and I had no desire to see them at all but her suggestion made me second guess myself and then just feel like she hadn’t listened to me.
One issue with therapists is when their egos get involved and they feel like how can they be getting paid to just listen and be supportive… And then comes the bad advice.
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Thanks uprising. I appreciate the validation that my experience was really painful and it wasn’t just about me, but her behavior played into it. A therapist could respond heartfully and sensitively in that situation. She admitted at the end that she’s really bad at conversations about money, insurance etc.
It definitely felt that way. Yet of course I, being an empath who seeks to understand wanted to know WHY she was acting heartless.
To me, healing in any relationship requires learning as much as possible about why people behave the way they do.
What you don’t know CAN hurt you. I prefer transparency.
Thanks again for your validation.
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Yes, I agree and can definitely relate with that woundedsoul74. That sense of rejection can bring up old wounds and then it can be like you need support to have a therapist haha.
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mik, wow! That validates for me the fear I have around therapy or really any relationship that is set up to be one sided/one way. It seems fundamentally dishonest. Though I always second guess whether it might have its place in some situations. Sorry that happened to you.
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Nathan, I hear you. I’d prefer to hear their own experiences… Perhaps it again goes back to me wanting to get to the bottom and know the truth about everyone. If someone wants me to give it another try, I want to know why they feel that way.
Did they lose trust in therapy and then earn it back somehow? How was it for them? Then I can make my own informed decision… Especially if I know them and can discern whether we have enough in common to have a similar experience.
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I also want to add that idealization isn’t that big of a thing for me in therapy, even though I mention it. It was when I was a child for sure! I think the hardest part for me is opening up and testing someone in that context where there are professional boundaries that keep me from getting to know the full truth of who they are.
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Kallena what is your experience with therapy? Are you a therapist or have you found it helpful for yourself? Literature doesn’t convince me of much but real people and their testimonials can be intruiging or inspiring.
Are you suggesting therapy would be helpful for everyone?
Which was the paragraph that made you sad?
Thanks for reading. It sounds like therapy has helped you and I’d be curious to know more about that versus your projections about what would be good for me.
Thanks!
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Thank you Nathan!
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Thanks Bonnie! I like the idea that to live a lie that harms others is already a curse, as we are all connected. Likewise to know the truth is already a blessing.
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Makes sense that a service dog trained to do a specific task for a blind or otherwise physically disabled/differently abled person would need those skills.
These are a very small percentage of the animals that have service dog status now though. I’ve never encountered a problem with a service dog trained to do a specific task- in fact I’ve rarely ever seen them.
It’s the mental health dogs that aren’t in most cases trained to do a specific tasks that have caused me and others allergies and other problems for the most part. I’m sure there are exceptions, but most mental health service dogs aren’t hypoallergenic, and it’s not because they need to hold credit cards as far as I can tell.
Thanks for your comments Julie.
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I’m always appreciative of hypoallergenic pets.
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Yeah, I think fear of dogs is pretty natural unless/until unlearned if you think of how most people would feel upon approaching a wild dog/wolf.
My aunt had a poodle and I think I was okay with being at her house when I was a kid. She also kept it spic and span!
What breed is your dog Julie?
I once heard service dogs have to be hypoallergenic, but like most laws surrounding service dogs and pets, it’s rarely, if ever, enforced. It seems only fair to have laws requiring breathable air for allergy sufferers if there are laws making it legal to have a service animal for a mental health diagnosis.
I’ll keep dreaming air filters are a legal requirement in all public places that allow service animals.
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Thanks Prettypurplepill! That would be a good idea, to ask to be seen on a different day, though it can often be hard to get an appointment with that much flexibility unless it were well in advance.
One medical office I went to regularly last year had a therapy dog off leash in the waiting area! But it was still the best option I could find because I had a practitioner I liked a lot (which is of course often hard to acquire) and the therapy room itself was clean and free of dogs.
In fact my practitioner was as allergic to dogs as I am! And so is my naturopath. I heard her recently tell someone with a service dog she was allergic. Luckily that person put the dog in their car and it seemed to be a non issue.
Do you know if any airborne allergens trigger your asthma reactions? I think like most things in the medical
model, asthma is framed as an isolated condition that is unrelated to anything else in the body or environment, but usually there is something in the environment that triggers it, or it can be brought on by emotions or trauma, like in your case.
I read somewhere that most people with extreme allergies are childhood trauma survivors.
It may be intergenerational trauma too. In my case it’s at least a good part genetic, and I was allergic to dogs from a very young age before any majorly traumatic events had happened in my life. The first few years of my life were actually relatively trauma free. But my father has the same type of allergic asthma as I do, so I’ve always known I inherited it from him.
Though my brother didn’t get it and I always wondered if it was partially because he was allergic to antibiotics and I was given tons of those at a young age, which can contribute to immunity and allergy problems.
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You’re welcome and thanks for your comment. Coffee can help some people with allergies and asthma for sure. My experience is that asthma is generally an allergic response, though for some it is induced by exercise. For me it’s induced by allergens. Thanks for reading!
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Old head, you are right that the democrats aren’t exactly better on this issue, and they certainly haven’t helped keep people free from psychiatric harm in the least. The implication of this article is that the democratic regime has had us sleep walking, but in crisis nonetheless. I do think Trumps leadership will be different, and different from other Republicans as well. He was a democrat himself at one time, but never a politician.
The main point is that he brings an air of complete unpredictability and erratic decisions, so we have no idea what will happen, except that things will not stay the same.
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Hmmm that wasn’t my experience. I was only able to be convinced of any of those things when I was drugged.
You are right that it’s a much bigger issue, but the drugs are the currency, the drugs are what they’re selling, the drugs are causing a huge amount of harm that cannot be overstated.
Our bodies deserve safety and respect, not just our minds as patriarchy would try to tell us.
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Another thing about withdrawal symptoms is that if someone has been on drugs for awhile, organ damage has been done, and there will be more physical symptoms, fatigue, anxiety, blood sugar problems, etc that go along with adrenal fatigue and liver damage etc. Also, the person has aged, which can bring further health challenges that most of us normally experience as we get older with accumulation of stress, wear and tear on our beings and toxins. So there are many reasons why withdrawal symptoms can be intense and why it can be hard to discern what is withdrawal and what is a normal body process that may have not been experienced before for other reasons.
But more often I think people don’t know about withdrawal at all, and that can be dangerous because then they may go back on the drug out of fear these symptoms are a result of going off the drug.
So I would say it’s best to assume most problems experienced in withdrawal are somewhat withdrawal related and are likely to subside or improve dramatically over time if someone can stay off of drugs, eat well, rest and recover.
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Excellent points Julie, about needing self awareness. I too would be dead long ago, in my 20s, if I’d listened to their advice.
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Thanks Julie, excellent points. Yeah, it’s tricky with cold turkey because there are those few instances where it works for some own and can be a big blessing….im glad that happened for you! And then so many cases where people are thrown into cold turkey with no idea about withdrawal and end up in very severe suffering. Both happened to me personally and in one case I got through it, while in the other I ended up being hospitalized again and put on many more drugs.
There is no one size fits all formula for withdrawal obviously, but I am glad you also see this opportunity to raise awareness about how necessary withdrawal and un-diagnosis are.
Going back to prettypurplepill’s comments above, un diagnosing oneself is an important tool for avoiding harm and medicalization. If we can talk about our experiences in normal human being language, others are less likely to pathologize us as well.
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Thanks Matt! Great quote, except that one sentence of course. Thanks old head, that line stuck out to me as well.
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Thanks the cat.
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Thanks dfk. I agree we should not tell people how we really are if they are going to try to “fix us” or otherwise interfere. Socializing, as you say, is what we need, but with people who are on equal ground and won’t try to get us to “go anywhere” or be “fixed”.
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Nomadic: where did you find anything about therapy, recovery or healing in this article? Where do you see suggestions to see therapists or life coaches? Quotes please.
“it would be wise to prepare by relearning basic things like how to have conversations, how to listen (a practice that is clearly declining; why listen to the person in front of me when I could be texting someone else?), how to make friends and meet new people, including and especially those very different from ourselves. There is an emphasis on learning/relearning to do these things in organic ways, outside of contractual relationships.”
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Could be a good time for med hoarding for other reasons…
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Oldhead: Hard to say since we’ve never had a billionaire president with financial power that extends way beyond this country to owning massive amounts of high value real estate in over 20 other nations before. Not to mention all the billionaires on his team…so I don’t think we can be sure things will stay the same.
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PrettyPurplePill: That’s absolutely true. Thank you for saying this. I completely agree, we need guidebooks on how to discern if people are trustworthy in this sense. Maybe I will write one.
It took me over a decade to find a therapist I trusted after being forced drugged and in the system. I always interviewed therapists and asked if they believed in diagnoses and drugs and no matter how great they seemed, I didn’t go to any who did.
You are so right about trust issues, and I can personally relate as that was the justified paranoia that made me “mad” to begin with.
Now I tend to be able to find more easily people who get it about the system, and have many many psychiatric survivors who understand in my circles, but that doesn’t mean I can always find someone who is available or willing/able to be supportive.
Thanks for your comments.
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Yeah, thanks Beth. I like this comment. Maybe we will see within this country what has already been documented in the world, that people with less access to psychiatry will “get better” more often.
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Point taken prettypurplepill. Thanks. You may be right, that many people need to be very careful about who they tell about withdrawal and other experiences. Though it is my hope that we can all find at least someone we feel safe to talk to who won’t pathologize or try to intervene.
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Thanks Faichra. Many of us similarly feel that having our natural emotions may be difficult, even excruciating but is still a gift of being alive.
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That’s great Fiachra. Your experience is very common(albeit lucky you came out well), being in withdrawal and then hospitalized and told it is a relapse, and I think our movement will need serious solidarity in the upcoming regime to protect people.
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Thanks for your comment Stephen. What state are you in?
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Sounds like a good idea 🙂
I appreciate that you are thinking about how to get the message out to a wider audience. That helped me get through the coming off process in a way that was inspiring and not purely tedious. Sending good wishes!
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That’s great Victoria. Thanks for reading and commenting. My .02 is that it is important to be as honest as we can with ourselves and then choose our battles as to who else is worth investing in the truth with. I don’t believe we owe it to medical professionals to share our truth with them unless we want to, because it can be draining and distract us from taking care of ourselves if we feel we are responsible for telling everyone everything we have learned. But it is a personal choice.
In your journey to stop drugs, I would offer that it’s okay to put yourself first and find practitioners who will support you, if at all possible. Trying to convince doctors to take you seriously or respect you when they don’t naturally do so can be a very frustrating process.
Wishing you the best!
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Thank you Knowledgeispower! Interesting you say, “therapy is supposed to be a place for personal growth and development”. Makes me think of how in general people go to therapy out of a desperation of some kind…like you say, in times of a big life change. But many people have been going through constant big life changes for pretty much ever, which often results in overwhelm. So, while the result may be growth and development, I think the initial motivation is usually overwhelm.
I think it’s great when therapists are transparent, especially because more and more people know how the system works so clients are assessing the therapist’s ability to be honest and aware, both with us, and themselves. At least that is my hope. I realize many still go into therapy without this awareness.
The dilemma and necessary evil mentality you describe is only true of some therapists. Many actually believe in diagnoses and drugs, in fact I would say the majority do, since that is how they are trained. They would need to actively go against their schooling and industry to see it as a necessary evil. I’m glad there are those out there who do, though, and it sounds like you are one of them.
Thanks!
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Thanks for reading and commenting. BPDTransformation. I completely agree.
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Thank you so much Sera for raising this very important topic that affects me and I imagine all of the women in this movement and elsewhere every day of our lives.
I must confess, these issues are a large part of why I have stepped away from the movement to some degree for a little while, to regroup and make sense of my voice and offerings without having them alongside a male’s.
I am that hyper sensitive, too emotionally reactive, thin skinned woman the ‘rock star’ men may have warned you all about. In fact I wrote a blog once about gender issues in this movement but got so much immediate backlash and personal attack that I had to take it down because I didn’t have a lot of support or resources in my life to help me deal with the triggers.
Though, some of the biggest triggers for me are the most “subtle” such as being ignored or excluded.
I grew up with a split family and one half of it was me and two males, so I got used to feeling invisible, being left behind and feeling like an outsider, or simply not connecting with or caring about whatever they were talking about like car brands and sports teams. And not even considering that they might ever care about or listen to what was on my mind. That was always ignored, so I wrote in my “diary” instead.
In this movement I’ve been silenced and critiqued by men who later admitted to me their egos were getting triggered or they were feeling self conscious or self critical when they lashed out at me.
I recognize men have a lot of wounding too, but Sera says it very well in this blog, as do many of the other commenters, it isn’t the same and there are specific types of oppression and silencing women are often so used to, we don’t even bother to speak up about.
Thank you so much Sera, for putting this blog out there.
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Thanks Daniel. I found this article entertaining and enlightening as well. To me it points to the fact that if anyone were good enough to be a good therapist they would probably be too good to the point of me idealizing them and thereby eliminating the benefits. Honestly, I don’t really trust therapy and haven’t been able to go in many years, despite occasionally trying to convince myself I “should.” It seems finding friends with therapeutic qualities is easier, freer (not just financially, but in the sense that there is no false paradigm or fake roles being played out, or if there are, they are acknowledged as such) and more honest.
I’m a bit too scared to trust a therapist as re-parenting influence, despite having heard of friends who have supposedly had that experience and benefited from it. Of course, it would be great to be re-parented sometimes, yet I guess I would never be able to let go enough into the “game” to allow it. Hmmm….brings up vulnerable feelings to even think about that…yet something in me just doesn’t believe in therapy for myself I guess, when I’m honest with myself. Bummer. I wish I could.
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Very true, Ted, and good point. Though I do know some otherwise intelligent and kind people that seem to think it’s good to give kids psych drugs if it improves their performance in school, hence raising their self esteem or something. And gosh, if so few people were for it, it doesn’t seem like we could possibly have the numbers of kids on them that we do. It is pretty cool to have a unanimous comment section on HuffPo, and not only that, they are almost all clearly anti-psychiatry as a whole. None of them mention a single thing about the possibility of psych drugs as “preventative treatment for developing mental disorders later on” or even any party lines like, “meds can be good for some people but they are over prescribed.” Nope, not one single BS line in the entire comment section. This is a victory!
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Thanks Jim! One thing that’s encouraging is that all of the comments (at least so far) are supportive. In the comments section, people also share stories of their own experiences of psychiatric torture as children. The commenters are not only agreeing with the article but criticizing the entire psychiatric system. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such an enlightened string of comments about psychiatry anywhere, even here on MIA where we sometimes feel we are preaching to the choir.
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LoveLife32 I wish you the best! We are survivors of such intense “treatment”, which has taken away our basic capacities to be ourselves, yet perhaps ourselves grow even stronger and emerge more powerfully out of that.
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Hi Daniel,
I started to be able to read again while I was in the process of withdrawal, towards the end. Writing was a gradual process. I was able to write towards the end of my withdrawal, but my writing didn’t return to being clear and well received until about half a year later, or more. It was a gradual process of being able to think clearly again. Though there were a few odd times while on psych drugs that I wrote things that were coming to me from beyond and were poetic and clear. But I wasn’t able to write good essays or anything until after I was completely off for at least a few months.
I went back to college while I was still in my withdrawal process and it was the first time in my life my writing was received poorly by my teachers, in that they seemed to think I was intrinsically a bad writer, or just didn’t get how to write.
Feeling emotion…well that too was a gradual and complicated one, so it’s hard to say. I gradually felt more emotion with each withdrawal in a way that can’t be quantified.
Being able to relate with others as a relatively “normal” human being…another very tricky one because I emerged from psych drugs and immediately got involved in activism, so I was accepted by that community right away and felt normal there, so that eased me back in, but I think it took me at least several years to feel “normal” around other people, especially since I was so young and my adult identity hadn’t been formed yet.
I think age and how long you were on the drugs are important factors, as well as how much peer support you have, peers meaning people who have been through withdrawal and get it.
Good luck with grad school!!!
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Thanks Alex! You are right! We are in a new era of possibilities, despite how bad things look in the psychiatric system.
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What a story Fred. Reminds me of how much we are survivors. It’s great to hear you are doing so well now and were able to come off! And sleep well. That is a big one…I feel so rested and spiritually renewed after sleeping now, compared to when I was on those drugs.
Thanks for reading and sharing your story here.
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What a powerful testimonial aria! That a lot of dramatic shifting. So sad that this is what is called “medicine” for “mental health”. I, too, could not read and had a lot of the experiences you described including Akathesia.
Thanks for reading and sharing your story!!!
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That was certainly my experience, John. Thanks.
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Very true and sad B.
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Yes, very sad B.
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Hi Luisa,
I’ve actually never tried that supplement, but I have some friends who have used it. Have you tried it? Thanks for the tip.
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Well said Alex. Beautifully put. I remember especially how amazing it was to hear music again and be able to feel it. I too was unable to cry. As for laughing, I laughed a lot while on psych drugs and withdrawing, but it was as a way to discharge all of the weird stuck energy I felt. Thanks for sharing your experience and for reading!
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Hi Sa,
It was different for different things. Some of these things I was able to do again almost as soon as I started tapering while others took years to gain back. Which specific ones were you most interested in knowing about?
Thanks for reading,
Chaya
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Thanks Rossa.
What do you mean by “I suspect that there was something else going on with you–a realization, a determination perhaps, that you no longer subscribed to the old you.”? I very much subscribed to the old pre-drugged passionate young me. Sure, there were things I did that were quite immature and that I wouldn’t do again, but I needed to go through them to learn from life. It would have been nicer to have more support that wasn’t pathologizing though. Most of my paranoia and fear came from living in a society that isn’t safe to go through a spiritual emergence in.
Or did you mean the old me was the drugged me?
In any case, I regained these abilities without all that much determination-they all naturally came back to me.
It’s a lot more complex, as you say, since my life was never “normal,” before or after drugging… nor did I really want it to be, haha.
I also agree that as a young adult, there were ways in which maturing helped me to move beyond certain experiences. Getting off psych drugs isn’t the only thing anyone ever needs to do to have the life they want. But I do validate those who feel it is an important step.
Going off psych drugs won’t solve all of life’s ills. I still have plenty of problems in my life- actually more in a way. Lying in bed all day didn’t give me much opportunity to have problems other than my own health and lethargy.
There are all kinds of struggles in my life all the time, which in fact I’m grateful for to some degree. Being drugged out of my mind to eliminate those problems didn’t really work, unless you consider inactivity to be a life goal.
It sounds like your relative is having a different experience. My story isn’t everyone’s story. I wish your relative the best in health, knowledge and true freedom, however that looks for them.
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Thanks Fiachra. Yes, that’s an important one. Some of those drugs made me sleepless yet tired all the time.
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Thanks, I would like to read your list.
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Thanks Ted. I agree, it is a fight of the spirit to be free and it strengthens us somehow.
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Thanks eng! Yes, it is like being reborn. Actually, in the context of spiritual emergence, I truly had a death experience while on 7 pharmaceuticals (most psych drugs). Being reborn happened so slowly and gradually as I withdrew, recovered from them and recovered from the extreme harm they did to my body and spirit. But that death experience happened for a reason and somehow seemed fated in my life, like something I needed to go through, both to understand the harm done by psych drugs and to understand death more intimately.
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Yes, ebl. I hope it’s sooner than later! It is a sorry chapter in human history.
I’m glad you are free to feel now without having to wonder whether your feelings are being manipulated by a drug. Thanks for reading!
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Wow, what a story wileywitch. It’s true these drugs affect how we are in relationships and awful that the apathy you experienced on Lithium caused you to be harmed that way.
Yeah, I’m not sure I believe in “mood problems” either. Feelings, moods, they are normal parts of life, even “extreme” ones. There’s extreme stuff going on and we are human so we respond to it with strong feelings. Totally valid, and not diagnosis worthy.
Glad you got out.
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Ohhhh I wish you the best! It’s so sad what these drugs do to us. Really glad you feel excited and that you have the courage to taper.
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Great article Ted! Excellent point about the ease of creating news in small towns. It was pretty easy in Northampton, MA even when we did very small protests with about a dozen people. I’m pretty maxed out at the moment but would like to help you in any way possible once things calm down. Do you have a location yet for San Francisco? At the very least I could spread the word and we could put out an email to the folks who were at Leonard’s memorial as quite a few of them are shock survivors.
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Thanks John!
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Yes, excellent point Cheryl. Sensitive and creative minds are often highly attuned to the unmet needs of us all. I look forward to seeing what we will all continue to create as we step into the future and step up as valuable members of society.
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Thanks David Bates. Great comment.
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Haha…interesting line of thought Someone Else. I especially like the last part:
What kind of sick society believes a book of stigmatizations is a “bible’?
No offense, but it is possible that if there is a God, that He was angry with a nation that inadvertently elected a president whose family had financed WWII, and seemingly has adopted a book of stigmatizations as a “bible,” while hypocritically claiming they are still a Christian nation.
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One other thought Alex… I do believe one way to do what you are suggesting (diversifying professionalism…if I understand correctly) is exactly what I am talking about in this article. I’m not sure if that came across, but it was my intention. Plus I think “craziness” always exists to liberate something…and to liberate, I believe is the highest form of service. I would like to see society value most highly what is in fact most valuable. This would give me a profound sense of “sanity” or living in a real world. I think that might be why it feels so healing to me to witness financial transactions that put high monetary value on liberation/healing arts. It is a visible/tangible expression of a truth.
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Thanks mclinn. 🙂 I agree wholeheartedly. Look forward to seeing your postings in the group.
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thanks Heather 🙂
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That’s awesome Alex. It sounds like the gift economy works really well for you. I can relate with the sense that the Universe is taking care of me…I guess though, recently one of the ways the universe took care of me was by telling me to charge more for my offerings. I kept getting nudges in that direction. That’s great if your path is different…I have no attachment to there being one way of doing things and I think both can be sacred. I only want to encourage those who never considered charging for their gifts to realize they can be valued in the “mainstream” economy.
I’m recently learning a lot more about how financial transactions, with money, can be sacred. For example, imagine a wealthy white male CEO paying a low income single mother of 5 kids $1000 to teach him how to make a good meal or grow vegetables in his yard. That was a fantasy I had this morning of how money can be a vehicle for a sacred exchange.
As for “crazy weirdo living on the fringes,” it’s in quotes for a reason. Not to stigmatize anyone living outside the mainstream economy, but actually to de-stigmatize being different. And one way to de-stigmatize being unique, is to remove its association with poverty. I’m sorry if that cam across as stigmatizing to you. I certainly didn’t mean it that way. I believe we should be able to continue to be as “crazy” and weird as we are while still valuing what we offer, so I’m not suggesting anyone has to conform in order to make a living, in fact quite the opposite. And for those who have no interest in money at all, that’s fine too.
I do believe that at this particular stage of evolution, money can help our movement to move from fringe to front and center in the public eye…and that is my main goal because so many more people need our message and I don’t want anything to hold our truth back.
I really appreciate your thoughts about a while new way of doing business and healing. I do agree we need to re-create business in ways that work, and those are quite individual to each person. I honor you for creating your own unique ways.
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Thanks Monica. 🙂
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Thanks for your reflections Monica, and thanks for reading. I do believe that most of what I offer will always be “free” as well. It’s interesting to use the word free, as most of what I freely offer, I actually offer *to* free- to free ideas and parts of myself and others, and it doesn’t feel like an option, but a requirement in order to stay here in this world. My body and mind will completely revolt against me if I don’t give what I have.
Money is only a possible vehicle for freedom, and will never be freedom itself. But I think what you mean by “free” is “at no cost,” which I understand. I still offer most of my work at no cost too and spend many many hours per week working on things to share with the world simply because I must, and I do so without thoughts of money or compensation or even personal acknowledgement.
I definitely hear you about being supported in unexpected ways as I have experienced that too! I’ve been “paid” in all kinds of ways including free vacations, housing, travel, publicity, food, and most importantly faith and peace of mind of knowing I am on a path and the Universe is holding me and guiding me.
Who cares if some people call that woo? 🙂
I agree with you that having a home makes a big difference. In the past five + years of financial struggle (until recently when I have been stepping out of that), the very worst part has been not having a stable home. There are so many ways that impacts my emotions as a sensitive person ranging from not having privacy, having unreasonable demands made on me, having to smell cigarettes/pot/perfume/cologne all the time, constant anxiety of not knowing what to expect day to day…I could list the stresses of not being a homeowner forever. Even having a huge amount of faith that I was on a path and the universe was holding me didn’t resolve any of those problems enough. Having money does make a big difference in at least knowing you have some options.
I hear you, though, that even with a home there are many other expenses.
I love Charles Eisenstein’s work and Sacred Economics was like a bible to me a couple of years ago. What I didn’t take into account entirely, though, was that it was coming from a well off, Ivy League educated, upper middle class, married white male home owner. For his soul, surely he needed to offer some things at no cost. That isn’t to discount its profound wisdom and transcendent value, which can’t be spoken of highly enough…yet I think what Charles needed in order to support his soul was somewhat the opposite of what I have needed. And as you say, we each have a unique path, so only you can know what you need.
Reading the article I linked to above by Mirror Living helped me to put these things into perspective and not feel as though I was “not living in a sacred economy” just because I was charging a reasonable amount for my time (while still working most of my time to serve others without charging at all). Curious what your take was on that article if you had a chance to read it?
I’ve noticed a sacred economy has unfolded in my business as well, especially since I have been charging an amount I can actually live on. The clients that have come to me have been so appreciative and I have been able to give them so much. I have felt a profound sense of soul connection and “soul contract” with them that doesn’t feel all that different from the “gift economy” to be honest. I go into almost complete timeless, faith and trust when working with people, and charging an amount I can live on has allowed me to do that.
I wrote this article to reach out to others who might happen to have a similar path as mine, where income in the form of money can help to balance us and give us what we need while we give others what they need.
I will be curious to hear more about your unfolding journey with money and/or the alternative economies.
Also curious, Monica, what you think of this little bloglet I wrote:
http://chayagrossberg.com/how-to-get-money-if-youre-poor-how-to-get-soul-if-youre-rich/
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Yes…another factor I’ve been thinking about is how we are all psychologically affected when a large portion of our friends and colleagues are on psych drugs. It drastically influences the quality of our relationships and our ability to trust and understand one another, when so many are taking a daily drug which no one, not even the doctor who prescribes it, understands.
These things may be “subtle” compared to, say, a drunk driver running someone over, but they don’t feel subtle to those of us who are awake, alive and sensitive in our interactions. Having a lot of numbed people around us is painful for all of us, whether we are the one being numbed and distorted or not.
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Thanks for this reflection Richard! I appreciate that you read this and reflected back my message with such profound understanding.
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Yes, B, I suppose you are right that the ads do in fact work for some people. All the more reason a big part of this issue is for people to learn to think for themselves. Though I do think it is trauma and injustice that cause people to lose their capacity for discernment and want someone else to tell them what to do, be it a doctor or a TV commercial. Either way, it’s a method of zoning out and numbing out with the blind faith that someone else knows best. Of course it is comforting for us as humans to sometimes rely on others to help us…but a healthy individual usually can sense when this “help” is genuine or based on propaganda. Being dumbed down is a sad way to avoid pain, yet the one many are using. I wonder if it is that people actually believe the commercials, or if they are so tired and worn down that they give in in apathy to “going along” with the thing right in front of them.
Anyways, thanks for bringing up the point that many people do buy into TV ads…it can be hard for me to wrap my mind around that, but when I do it makes me very sad.
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Cataract, yes, I have certainly seen a huge difference in quality of groups/organizations that take pharma money versus not. Even those that don’t take pharma money have a hard time staying authentic and not reverting to medical model jargon, but for those that do, it’s nearly impossible.
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I think what would be even more key than halting direct to consumer advertising would be indirect advertising. The primary way Pharma advertises is through control of media, and “grassroots” or “advocacy” groups which they fund.
The ads themselves read like anti-ads, with more space and time on side effects than anything else, and the tag lines are so stupid and obviously manipulative that I would be embarrassed if I did believe in the mental illness model.
Still, having those highly expensive ads creates a disincentive for publications/shows to have any information critical to Pharma in them.
So, yes, the ads are very problematic, despite being a good way to use some of Pharma money to educate the public on why they SHOULDN’T take psych drugs.
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Yes meremortal. It seems so complex to be a parent and navigate the mental health system, or health system at all. I wish we lived in a world that wasn’t so controlled by lies. It’s ever important for parents and everyone to think for themselves and do their own research. It is never wise to assume just because a doctor says something, it is true; most doctors, in fact have been trained out of their common sense.
We must all reclaim our minds and develop our own abilities to discern what is true as we’ve been failed millions too many times expecting any system to do that for us.
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Wow, very well said David. Some beautiful statements you make here, that show me you read very deeply into the article and got my message in a profound way–always satisfying!! It’s true, society seems to have these fears of our own condition, of speaking honestly about it and it’s a relief some of us here on this site and elsewhere can come together to discuss that as human beings.
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Exactly Steve, the key word is INFORMED. Yet, since society is misinformed, where are we left in terms of choice? Choices are being made primarily out of fear and inaccurate information, thus not really choices and creating further isolation. Thanks for your input, totally agreed. 🙂
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You are absolutely right Andrew. Though, perhaps the title of this article might (unintentionally) imply that I would be discussing choice vs force/coercion, in fact I was aiming to discuss choice of the ego versus a higher choice. When society is manipulated through lies disguised as science and medicine intended to make them scared, the choices end up being largely ego choices, choices that come from a sense of isolation and disconnection. An informed choice, as you say, would take the bigger picture into account, and as you say would be based on accurate non-biased facts.
With this information, individuals would have a much greater shot ar making a choice that would take other people into account as well, since none of us are living in a vacuum where we can make choices that affect us alone. The pro-force advocates might use the same argument in favor of forced “treatment”, but since their information has been manipulated, they are coming up with a choice that is harmful and puts society in great danger across the board, on a large scale, which is what we have now.
Thanks for reading and commenting.
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Couldn’t have said it better.
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Yes B, absolutely. There are so many dangers they cause to society, including violence and suicide, as you say.
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Completely agree Duane! Thanks.
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PS, I love that Carlin quote and think it applies.
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Very well said Duane! There are so many ways in which the “personal decision: to take psych drugs affects all of us; as you mention, they are in our drinking water and we have to pay for their harm via taxes and insurance costs. Thanks for bringing up these additional points! We need more blogs on these topics, as of course the decisions of individuals to take psych drugs affect all of us and harm us all when taken as a way of life.
More so, the decision to prescribe these drugs so widely and call them medicine is harming us all, and doctors and drug companies need to take responsibility for the harm they are doing not only to the individuals they prescribe for, but all of us, including themselves.
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Thanks Ted. Yes, telling people what you think is right for them personally can be condescending, especially if they haven’t asked, but I think by admitting that we have some self interest in hoping for others to be free from psychiatry is important. Because none of us are free from psychiatry until all are free.
Thanks!
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Thanks Frank!
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Thank you Jim.
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Thank you so much everyone for sharing these beautiful testimonials of Leonard. What a powerful person we have lost. I spent most of the day on Saturday crying in bed at the loss of such an amazing person. Reading these accounts makes me tear up every time. Thank you all for appreciating this peaceful and brilliant man.
Here is what I wrote in my reflections about the first time I met Leonard in 2004:
http://chayagrossberg.com/leonard-roy-frank-a-memoriam/
I submitted it here, but in case it takes awhile to post, or isn’t shared.
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Yes, uprising. We are social beings who naturally move towards healing! Thanks for reading!
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Thanks for sharing and reading Stephen! I certainly agree in the case of suicide and so many other things, talking to those who have had a similar experience is one of the most healing and connecting things we can do, if not the most.
I had a similar experience at one hospital I was at, where many of us who had had spiritual experiences were able to relate with each other, and it was more effective, humanizing and connecting than anything I got from the counselors. However, at some of the other hospitals I was at, people were treated so poorly and drugged so heavily that there was a similar barrier in us relating to each other. It seems the hospitals often make it difficult for inmates/patients to connect with one another, but when we find ways to, it makes the experience meaningful, and quite different. I still remember people I met at that one hospital almost 15 years ago. I stayed in touch with some by email. Two of them even ended up getting together romantically and stayed together for years afterward. Maybe they are still together today. Peer support all the way!
Yet, I wish ti didn’t have to be called “peer support.” I wish it was just understood that all people need friends, regardless of what their life experiences have been and whether they’ve been given a label.
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Thanks Boans. I’m glad you’re going to keep speaking your truth and I do believe that is the first step in getting things to change. The most informal type of peer support aka friendship has been the most healing for a lot of us.
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Thanks Steve! I agree. And thanks for reading!
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Thanks Duane! And thanks for reading!
regards,
Chaya
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I see what you mean, Boans, I think. When we first emerge from an extreme trauma such as psychiatric abuse or any other abuse, it is nearly impossible to stay silent about it and conform. We may air on the side of speaking up “too much” because we were silenced for so long. I know that was true for me. Once we have integrated some of our experiences it may be easier to stay silent, but I hope we still find ways to speak up. Perhaps we can find more strategic ways to speak up when we aren’t as close to the trauma. Still, I’m glad for everyone who speaks up in whatever way they are able.
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Yes, the natural form of peer support is the greatest I think. Would you mind clarifying your last sentence? “In that sense, listening may be a key to healing, until the training into silence is complete.”?
Not sure what you mean. Thanks!
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Thank you humanbeing!
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Great letter Meaghan! Thanks so much for sharing this!
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Thanks Steve. Yes, radical self-acceptance would release us from the need for mental illness labels, or at least from an coercive corrective practices or involuntary “treatments.” Completely agree with what you say here about psychiatrists protecting themselves by projecting their power over others and often using inherently non-healing modalities that are called medicine.
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Thanks oldhead. I appreciate your concerns about Facebook. Maybe decline, oppose or even boycott would be better words than abstain?
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Excellent points boans! How cool that you thought so deeply about this and came back with these notes. Those fears make sense to me. I was thinking this morning that being “low drama” or low conflict is an often unrecognized privilege. Any of those 4 things would surely trigger a conflict in most people, especially if they had been experienced in childhood or at other times in a way that was traumatic. Thanks again for reading so thoroughly and for this powerful insight.
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I hear you oldhead…tricky. There are some major issues with Facebook for sure, yet so many people use it and find their news and information on there now. For example, I always post my articles on lots of different Facebook groups and that draws new people to this site and to alternatives to corporate sponsored media. I see lots of links to alternative news perspectives on my Facebook newsfeed that I would never see otherwise and get to share both my own writing and other articles of interest with a lot more people than I would otherwise.
I certainly have great respect for those who abstain, as it can be a waste of time and can be a platform for just the kinds of non-productive passive aggressive conflict we are discussing here. Hmmm….maybe we need a public debate about this 😉
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Thanks oldhead! You’re right that the mind cannot have a disease. As for Facebook, whether or not it’s an okay thing, most people are using it. Do you abstain?
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Well said as always RISN! That is the key. How to democratize conflict and move away from conflict being coopted by business…a hefty task. Is humanity up for it? I think we all want it underneath, we just have no idea how to shift things to get there.
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Thanks B. Yes, there’s a lot of stuff in here. I’m glad you brought up passive aggressive behavior. It seems psychiatric drugs/treatment is a passive aggressive approach, no? Rather than addressing the conflict, diagnosing it as an illness is a passive approach. Then a pill can be passively taken to treat this “illness,” without addressing the underlying conflict. There always is one!
It seems our culture, especially the medical model, is rooted in this passive aggression. The medications are even passive aggressive, harming our bodies while making us more passive. It feels good to me to at least name this as conflict avoidance, even if I don’t know how to go about addressing these conflicts all the time.
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And thanks for reading!
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🙂 Thanks Fred! Let’s do it!
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So glad you took this idea and ran with it! Awesome!!
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Edit Wikipedia definitions of mental disorders
add things like Psychiatric survivor to Wikipedia
create a wiki on how to come off psych drugs
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Thanks Jim! This is great news. Has her settlement been established?
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Thanks James! This resonates with me!
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You’re welcome, and thank you for reading Anon.
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🙂 Thanks for the comment chrisreed. It’s good to have a reminder of these things, as with the rents currently being the highest in the country, a lot of these values are being priced out of San Francisco, making it less friendly to people without wealth. Still, you are right, the Bay Area is a hub of cutting edge thought and innovation.
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Thanks B and thanks for reading. Yes, it feels good to have a non-crisis option.
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Great article Michael!
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Thanks Someone Else. This is what I was thinking too. Alasandra, welcome and thanks for the great article. It is important, though, not to remove politics, economics and law from the picture, which is what we would have to do in order to say the consumer has the power in this case.
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We need both abolitionists and reformers. Even if abolition is impractical, we need to hear the gut wrenching stories of abolitionists and respect them. We need to hear from those who have been so harmed by psychiatry and forced treatment that intellectual exercises and even diplomatic strategies are painful.
Reform on the ground if you have the access, resources and strategies; don’t stop dreaming of an end to all torture if you have the vision, passion and strength of spirit.
Maybe an abolitionist has no practical plan that will work. Sometimes, an intention and dream is as powerful or more than a practical plan, or the seed to creating one.
We need both.
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Thanks for this Laura. I went to post the article, “Don’t Send Your Kids to the Ivy League” on my high school’s facebook page, “You Know You Went to Stuy If…”and what do you know, it was the very last thing posted by someone else. Under the article was one comment by a fellow alumn of my high school: “There’s some truth to that. More than a few people I have either known personally – or am familiar with – did not attend any Ivy League institution.” Ha! More than a few?…congratulations!
I was one of a small percentage at my high school, Stuyvesant, who did not attend or even apply to any Ivy League colleges, and I have my childhood trauma to thank for that. Since my high school was basically like an Ivy League University (public, but still), I realized a lot of these things early on and chose a small liberal arts school with no tests or grades (Hampshire), but still very expensive, right up there with Harvard in cost and hence in the privilege and lack of diversity of those who attend. Even so I remember feeling very opened up by the students there, because they were more diverse than those who went to my high school in New York City. They were more creative and interesting and generally actually cared about the world, or about something other than grades. I thought being from NYC I must have known everything and seen everything of importance in the world. I thought I came from diversity because I saw all different races all around me all the time. But nearly everyone at my high school had similar types of goals: to “succeed” and “get ahead” and “win” at life. My group of friends who were a bit less competitive seemed to have more interest in making a difference in the world and doing something meaningful. We also tended to cut class more and sit outside in the Spring and we didn’t pull all nighters to study.
But if I had not been so turned off by this culture in high school, or perhaps if I had thought I could compete with these folks, I may have stayed my pre-high school self longer, and competed to go as “high” as I could.
Thanks for sharing this. It is a very important piece of the big picture of “mental health system” failures that includes economy, education and so many other things.
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This is very inspiring! Thank you Jaquelin. When you contacted me I was so honored and also had no idea how long you had been working on this project or how it started, so it is great to hear the back story. And I’m sorry there is so little resistance in Mexico. So important that you are starting it and while some people wight not take you seriously due to being younger, others will. Many young people don’t realize how important their voice is and how powerful it actually is. People do listen; we are listening, and very grateful.
I remember having discussions about psych drugs in high school with my friends. It was a different time period-we had pretty much just missed being the stimulant generation, but Prozac was getting its grip on us. I remember long soul searching conversations with my best friend about what we thought about taking these drugs.
So glad you and your friends realize how much your perspective matters.
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Good job metalrabbit! You never know when those words will echo back to her.
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I just wrote this and think it is relevant to the conversation, especially Daniel’s comment about this being like a poem:
You can choose your battles as a person but as an artist you must not. As an artist you must fight for the freedom of every particle of existence. Your artist self is uncivilized and not diplomatic. If you try to domesticate her by “choosing battles,” she will only grow more fierce, more dangerous in her cage or shell. No pills will calm her, no cliches will quiet her. She demands and deserves full range of your human body to overthrow anything that stands in her way.
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What do you mean exactly by the psychiatric housing issue?
Good questions! I like the idea of college students having advanced directives since they are often at an age and stage in life where so many things are shifting, and think you are right on with suggesting perhaps we ALL need them.
BTW my dear friend Michael Bloom (who later committed what I believe to be psych drug induced suicide) went to Rutgers and was first labeled “bipolar” and put on drugs while there.
Of course these things happen at almost all schools.
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Thanks Michael. This is great!
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Thanks Fiachra. I completely agree.
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Thanks B. Well said.
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I hear your frustration Jeffery C. Sorry that is your situation, or at the very least your situation right now. I don’t believe anything is entirely hopeless or impossible and when I was on 7 psych drugs I struggled to eat, brush my teeth, shower, even walk. I hardly left my house for a year. Still, I acknowledge that some folks have been on more drugs for longer and may never find a way out. Which is horrible.
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Yes Stephen, good points. And the cool thing is that most of us do have the power to put the brakes on it. We have so much access to information these days that we can certainly exercise our human right to make our own choices. I believe a true doctor or healer wouldn’t be attached to the outcome, but would advise in some cases and trust the “patients” wisdom at least as much as their own. I’m glad you have a faithful practitioner! 🙂
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Cool! I just read some of their statements. Not perfect, but certainly a big step forward!!! http://cspnj.org/medication-optimization/ This is their “medication statement” (see the pdf on that page) for anyone interested. Thanks for sharing this!
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Yes, tihs reminds me of how in Asian languages mind and heart are the same word.
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Good questions…Given the short amount of time I had with her, I don’t know the answers. I don’t even know her name. My understanding is that the idea that psychological distress, or “illnesses,” could be compared to medical illnesses and resolved with pills was wishful thinking that was never shown to be true and obviously turned into a multi-billion dollar and VERY harmful industry, disguised as medicine or “care.” The interesting thing is that most “medical illnesses” aren’t simple, isolated and fully permanently resolvable with pills either. So I think we need a new paradigm of care across the board.
Thanks for listening to Talk With Tenney! 🙂 Would love to know more about the respites in NJ. Do you have any more information?
Thanks!
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Yes, Fiachra, I hear you. 12 step meetings can be very helpful and supportive for some. I have found some support at 12 step meetings, at times. I like that those meetings have a solid structure, and of course that you can “take what you like and leave the rest.” The way 12 steps intersect with institutional psychiatry, though, can be very damaging if diagnostic labels are being validated and feared.
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Thanks copy_cat! It’s true, the stories can start to all sound the same after awhile…which is the product of a cookie cutter “medical system.” And a lot of folks don’t see that their story is the product of an industry. Yet, underneath, we all have a more unique story, thankfully.
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Thanks Jon!
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Thanks for reading B.
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Thanks Corrine!
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What is this “order” we all seem to be incapable of attaining?
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Maybe your ex-psych would want to write a blog on what he learned from you and how it affects his practice.
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Thanks Leah! This totally gave me goose bumps as well. Beautifully written!!!!!
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Thanks Alex! Thanks for reading 🙂
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Thank you Cindypetersondana. And thanks for reading!
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Thank you and thanks for reading Someone Else.
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Thanks Jon! Great additional information. It’s helpful to spell these things out. When I was withdrawing from psych drugs I took quite a bit of Valerian and I think I got mildly addicted to it and it eventually caused me insomnia and anxiety rather than restfulness, but I still felt I needed to take it. Insomnia was so bad at times that perhaps it was just the idea I was taking something that I needed.
This is such an interesting conversation because we are all so different and have such different ways of making decisions about our bodies. For quite a long time I have been highly intuitive about what to put into my body, so much so that I don’t even need to do that much research or think too hared about it. But I did a lot in the past, so my intuition is grounded in knowledge of herbs, foods, etc. I think, like most things, we need to study and learn as much as possible and eventually find our own rules.
Thanks for reading and adding this additional helpful categorization.
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Thanks Monica! It’s good to know this information about psych drugs lowering histamine.
It’s true, when I was on and withdrawing from psych drugs, there were a lot of foods I was sensitive to that I never was before or after. For me it was mostly sugars, including fruit. Being on Risperdal made me experience blood sugar problems as a skinny 22 year old.
But I also avoided grains and a bunch of other things at that time based on things I was reading and experimenting with.
Another piece of this puzzle is when to make dramatic dietary changes. Sometimes we have reactions to foods if we aren’t used to them or haven’t developed a tolerance for them. This has happened to me when I’ve avoided certain foods for a long time and then suddenly ate them again. I think making big dietary changes should ideally happen well before or well after the withdrawal, though of course this isn’t always possible.
I appreciate your input about supplements. Supplements have become less tolerable to me as I’ve gotten older. When I was withdrawing from psych drugs I was 22-23 and my body was able to take a whole bunch of supplements but now I can hardly take any at all. It really varies by the individual, as you say. Ideally we can all get to a point where we are close enough to our body and intuition that we have a good sense of what is and isn’t good for us. Before I fully developed this refined awareness (or developed such high sensitivity) I tried a lot of different diets and learned a lot by trial and error. Sometimes this trial and error made me lose dangerous amounts of weight or become so fixated on food that I couldn’t engage with others or do anything else. But that was also perhaps what I needed to do at that time for other reasons.
I also experience and believe that food sensitivities and other types of sensitivities can be in some ways connected with consciousness, trauma and emotions. This isn’t to say they aren’t real. They are very real. Yet they also, in my experience, have function and symbolism outside of just our bodily processes. For example, for me, I was on a very specific diet that didn’t allow me to eat what others were eating and that was part of my need to take space from the outer world and retreat for awhile. There’s more to that story, but that’s the short version.
So I’m interested in continuing this discussion of both nutritional sensitivities and how they are connected to other things as well.
Thanks for reading and sharing what you have learned over a long period of study and practice, Monica.
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Does Charles have a view on what this story is? Interesting question…
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Oh I thought that was you Aleta. I love that we haven’t met but I’m getting to know how your mind works 🙂
Thanks for reading and consistently adding valuable ideas.
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Excellent excellent contribution to this conversation RISN! Thank you.
It’s interesting because how do we define WHO get to be the spiritual facilitators? Some spiritual traditions still support monks and nuns to live without money, but it seems these folks have to be doing their spiritual practice with the confines and structures of a patriarchal and hierarchical organized religion.
Even the ones that are less so seem to require full subscription to a set of rules and ways of life to prove that they are committed to the spiritual path.
But I see some of the most revolutionary spiritual leadership going on in social justice work and outside patriarchal religions or hierarchical spiritual traditions.
You are so right that our views and stories of “mental health” and money go hand in hand. They cannot be divorced and as we change one, the other will follow suit.
With crowd funding and other new technology, I have seen communities back individuals in their spiritual and creative pursuits, so perhaps we are moving towards decentralization of “spirituality” after all. Which is important. If our views of spirituality are centralized, they lose diversity, progression, humanity and authenticity.
Of course if they are medicalized and pathologized…they lose everything.
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Where do you find the google stats?
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Thanks Alex. This is inspiring. I, too have noticed that my sense of abundance is not always directly related to my bank statement. There are so many ways the world can offer us abundance and I, too, find that there are infinite ways to be “compensated.” Perhaps even the word compensation is a misnomer. Is it always about exchange? I’m not sure. Maybe we receive as much abundance as we are open to. I know it isn’t that simple and I would never use this line of thinking to address someone else’s situation, but in my own experience there are infinite avenues of abundance.
That doesn’t mean it is always easy for me. I have some “poverty consciousness” that says I need to be limited. There need be no shame in admitting that we are limiting our own abundance with our state of mind because that state come from trauma. Part of me is still holding the trauma my grandparents (and many others) experienced escaping genocide, coming to a new country where they didn’t speak the language so well, or know the culture and had little money or ways of making a lot of money. It was a struggle for them, as it has been for many.
I still reenact that struggle sometimes. And other times I let it go, fully trusting the Universe to provide me with my needs, with or without money. Being on a life path where I live almost entirely by intuition, soul purpose and faith, there is less and less room for financial fears, though I still have them and they still affect me sometimes. Because I’m human.
Thanks again for sharing your experience. I think the more of us who share our honest personal experience of relating with money differently, they more inspired and liberated we all become from the cult.
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Thanks Sera! I appreciate what you are doing to bring a “different viewpoint” to students. This is very important.
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Thanks Duane.
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Thanks Oryx. This is a beautiful piece. I especially like the last paragraph.
When I read or hear the terms “mental health community” and “addictions community” it reminds me of a meeting I was at once in Holyoke where someone said they were very uncomfortable with the term “Hispanic community.” It’s interesting that when people are considered “other” they get lumped together by the term “community” i.e. the “deaf community” the “disabled community” the “gay community.”
I think the term community should be reserved for individuals that have a genuine connection to one another, regardless of whether they have a diagnosis or are of a certain race or “othered” category or anything else. Ironically a true community doesn’t discriminate (as I have no doubt you agree and state in this article). I don’t think we have different views on what an actual community is, but the word community as used in this article seems to be a buzz word. Do you agree? What language can we use that is more descriptive? Perhaps addiction survivors and psychiatric survivors? Having a vaguely shared experience of one kind or another doesn’t exactly equal being a “community.”
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Right. Forbes didn’t give us any money, if I remember correctly, but they posted a video of our work on their page which did lead to some considerable donations.
If donations are “no strings attached” because someone already likes and trusts what is being done, I think it works better (which requires a lot of volunteer start up energy to show what is being done), but even then there can be complications about what to do with the money, who gets it, distributing it “fairly” etc. I’ve never seen it be simple.
Some people have a lot of patience and/or skill for these things, but I decided to start my own venture because I want to focus on supporting people in my own way and not spend a lot of time in group dynamics where people are fussing over money and other politics. This is just my way for right now though. I see that those groups who receive donations and use them for good are also doing very important things to serve. Both formulas are needed. Larger organizations can take on larger projects. Individuals can focus their energies on supporting others without as many systems and group dynamics to contend with. Neither need be discarded.
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Hi Duane. I do see a place for this. There are wealthy people who are or will become interested in this mission.
There are still problems with decision making when a small number of wealthy people are funding something and therefore have the power to yay or nay the decisions made or withdraw their funding.
Are you familiar with Windhorse Associates? They use this model and it does have its drawbacks (but then again they aren’t focused on supporting people to come off psych drugs necessarily). They are an alternative mental health agency that is expensive and usually funded by clients wealthy and/or desperate family members.
Thanks for chiming in!
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Well said Julie. I love your way. In the word professional is profess/prophesy, so I think it is more the spirit with which we work that defines “professionalism” which is quite a co-opted word as you illustrate.
That’s great that you found friends and companions in the same boat (or a similar one as I doubt any of us are in the very same boat).
As a writer I resonate with you. Most of my “professional” work is writing and I do most of it for free. I also see no shame whatsoever in getting or giving free things. In fact that is my idea of utopia. Keep on! 🙂
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Right. Thanks Jon, I think you articulated this very well. Ultimately, even in completely professional relationships the giving is both ways, even outside the money exchange. For example, if all I were getting out of talking to someone was money and nothing else, I wouldn’t feel so great afterward or consider it ideal work. Part of the reason I stopped going to therapy was because I felt I was giving so much and it felt draining somehow to be in the role of “client”.
But I agree with you that where we are now in our evolution, the compensation framework can sometimes make things simpler because we basically know our role and set aside time to either give or receive attention, and there is something comforting about that. This could be done on a gift basis or through trade and barter as well, but the money system is already set up so for now we sometimes might need to fall back on it.
I think it would be cool to see the exchange as a temporary role playing structure rather than the roles of client and clinician being our identities. Because any of us could be in either role if life’s circumstances were to change.
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Thanks Jon. I think this raises the question of what “peer support” is and while there is no solid line between peers and those with specific skills in this area (as they are often the same), there can be people who have more in common in where they are in their lives. Those who are struggling with psychiatric drug withdrawal vs those who have gone through it 3 or more years ago are in very different places. This is hard because we all want to be “peers” and we all are peers in some way, really every single one of us in the human family and there may be one thing I have in common with a psychiatrist and that would make us “peers” in that sense.
But I do believe that the more we have in common with those we are “supporting,” the more supportive it actually is.
Sometimes the peer support of people who are struggling with a similar thing can be challenging because both have such a strong need for support (while both might also have a lot to give). In these cases, someone who might be a “former peer” as in someone who has been in a similar place but no longer is there as much of the time can be useful. Yet, it is important that we stay humble and human and continue to admit our own struggles when they arise so as not to go into the oppressive “non-transparent expert” role that was so damaging to us when we sought help from the system. I believe that this honest relating and transparency is what is most healing, even more so than any skills or techniques.
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Thanks Greg. I like this: ‘Maybe one just keeps doing what they passionately believe is right and funding works itself out without conscious planning,” and have found it to be true for the most part.
When I follow my heart and passion, the answers often seem to just come to me. So I do what my intuition tells me most of the time, following that more than a logical or thought out approach.
You are right about profit motive compromising community. I feel that and that is why I wrote this article. The best “help” I have ever gotten in my life has mostly been free from friends who genuinely love me and care about me. There is always a sense of compromise if someone is being paid to care…yet the conundrum exists that we do care but can only be effective in showing that care and personal attention to so many people.
One of the really sad and unfortunate things, catastrophes really, of being debilitated by psychiatric drugs, is we often lose the ability to connect genuinely and fully, which can leave us with a deficit of support in our lives that is mutual. When I was debilitated by psych drugs it was really hard to foster and sustain mutually supportive relationships, which I think are the most valuable.
I had paid professionals supporting me and it always felt compromised. Yet, without some of them I never could have made it through, so there are once again no simple answers.
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Thanks for chiming in Sharon. Ideally I think everything would happen outside of the money economy, someday. I don’t feel I’m quite there yet, but have certainly made a lot of progress when living in places with a high level of sharing and free resources such as Portland, OR. I like to focus my work on what is meaningful to me and what compels me, which isn’t always where the dollars are. Yet often when I do this, resources end up following me and things work out.
Could you say more about bitcoin rapidly changing our economy? I, too, feel inspired by alternative currencies such as bitcoin and others, yet they still seem to be too much on the fringes to be helping meet most peoples’ basic needs. I do feel optimistic, though, that the gift economy and alternative currencies are on the rise and dramatically changing things, especially how we do “business.”
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Thanks John… Grants can be a good way to go. They have their limitations, but so does every source of funding, even being payed privately and directly by those we work with, as this article discusses. There are pros and cons to both. With grants, support can be free or low cost to those suffering, which it should be. Yet grants themselves can be time consuming and oftentimes haven’t been sustainable for me. Still, the Freedom Center and other groups I’ve worked with had a lot of success providing grant funded services to the public and creating authentic community…but we also had tons of volunteers, which eventually became unsustainable for most of us. Was great while it lasted though, in many ways.
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Thank you so much kimmyo! I totally agree that the money and resources need to go back to those we are working with as well. That was one thing I left out of this article-the need for compensation for those who are coming off. They are doing the even harder work at this point (as we know having done it ourselves). I agree it is a conundrum, as are most things involving money if we are honest with ourselves. This is why I support people to receive disability income and other government assistance even if they don’t consider themselves disabled or don’t want to be seen that way. But like all things it’s an individual decision.
The cool thing is that I believe we all end up getting “compensated” in various ways if we are open to it, whether in money or not, whether directly or indirectly for the good we do. Doing good work from our heart is also its own reward and the good energy comes back to us. Which I doubt very many psychiatrists could say.
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Oh gotcha!! Thanks Copy cat. That’s helpful.
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Oh cool. I love your article and listening to your I got better video now. BTW I plan to be in the Bay Area in March, would be great to connect.
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Thank you so much Alex! This comment means a lot to me. I, too, felt so scared of being criticized and scrutinized for a long time, and still can feel that way sometimes, but it is freeing, as you say, to share our stories anyway.
I think the more I share, the less scared I am, in part because I’ve gotten enough encouragement and positive feedback that I know I won’t be rejected by EVERYONE, but also because the more of my story I share publicly, the harder it is for anyone to legitimately pigeon hole me or over simplify my reality.
Do you have a place we can read you story?
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Sorry copy cat I might be a bit slow here, but can you clarify what messages you are sending and what the purpose is?
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🙂 Thanks Jonathan.
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Great idea copycat. Thanks for sharing.
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Thanks Someone Else. You could blog anonymously with a pseudonym. I completely agree it’s important to protect your child’s privacy. How can Facebook stop you from creating a page with a pseudonym? You can create a new email address with a pseudonym and use that to create a new facebook account. Another possible option would be to create a pseudonym AND refer to the person who was abused as a friend/family friend’s child or something of that nature and conceal as many details as possible that would identify you. It certainly is a lot harder.
When blogging with your own name, you may be able to blog about certain things that just pertain to you and not your child, or speak in vague terms that don’t identify any of your child’s experiences, but just that you were in turmoil due to “something” that hurt your child. These are just some brainstorming ideas since you asked for advice, but I am sure you have the expert judgement on which would work in your particular situation.
Thanks for sharing your concerns about anonymity and privacy here. I struggle with similar things and there are things about my family I don’t write publicly, which is a bummer but just where I am at right now. So one more piece of advice when blogging publicly is to pace yourself and go as slowly as you need to. Try revealing a little bit and see how you feel, whether it feels safe. I do a lot of writing that I never share with anyone but hope to someday when I’m ready.
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Thanks Corinna! I will. 🙂
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Thanks Vikki. It’s great to know you are out there making a difference and thinking about ow to make a bigger difference.
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Thanks Greg! I resonate with this.
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“turning a blind eye in favor of one’s own comfort in one situation” is a good way to put it, certainly done in both the animal industries and psychiatric industry.
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Thanks Sera! Just curious, when you say you’re not an animal person, do you mean recreational/pets/domesticated animals or all animals? I wasn’t an animal person for a long time, but then realized I wasn’t a “domesticated animal person.” Even though some domesticated animals seem happy, cute and are well loved, they didn’t have a choice in their domestication and were bred to have traits humans would find endearing, which is similar in my mind to being forced into “treatment” to make oneself more pleasing, calm, cute, quiet, slow, non-aggressive and sweet for people who are scared of the complexity of the full being as it naturally is.
I feel empowered, strengthened, free and happy around most wild animals (and un-psychiatrized people) on the other hand, so I think ironically my “non-animal” personhood was animal empathy in disguise. And the conviction that we should all live in our strongest, most empowered and free state.
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Thanks Sera! Great article. Also, thanks for comparing these issues to animal abuse. This is an issue that I would like to see spoken of far more, since what we do to animals oftentimes mirrors what we do to one another, or the “weaker” or less advantaged people, or those we want to control.
http://www.globallookingglass.com/2013/03/20/companion-animals-an-apology-to-holly/
I can relate with making some “bad decisions” on my own, but decisions that left me with energy to make better ones, versus psychiatry’s decisions which left me with little energy at all.
I like this:
Hands down, the most frequently asked question I hear when working with providers is how to ‘motivate’ people who seem unmotivated. In more instances than not, that question should be reframed to, “How do I support this person to heal a broken spirit so they can even begin to care about moving toward anything again?”
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Thank you Alex!!!!!
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Well said Someone Else! Thank you. I hope your dreams come true too. I believe in dreams and believe they will all come true, one way or another. Thanks for reading.
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Is this a suggestion for mjk or me?
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Thanks Joey! “As if” is right! Have your father or best friend read this website or any of the other research on the long term effects of psych drugs? Hugs to you my friend.
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Thanks Wayne! What an honoring statement. I appreciate you reading my words.
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Thank you Lia. This is very well written. Sad that you weren’t able to communicate as well with your father before he died. This is one of the tragedies of being drugged into a stupor. I’m so glad you lived to tell your story though!
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Thanks Maria! Well thought out and well written article. Good job breaking it down.
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Beautiful greenheron! Authenticity can drown out paternalism if we just relax. I like your optimism and I agree.
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Thank you Donna!!
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Beautifully said Alex! Thank you!
“it guides us back to our own energy and true nature, not to be confused with those of others.” Perfect. I love it.
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Thanks Maria!
“Drug profitability requires three parties to work together – drug companies to make the drugs, psychiatrists to prescribe them and consumers to take them.”
One addition: insurance companies to pay for them.
And another: Government to work hand in hand with insurance companies.
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Thanks for sharing your body sensations and the defensiveness you feel when reading these comments. Hearing that, I feel more open towards you. I imagine you feel some things similar to how many of the commenters feel and have some other perspectives or experiences that perhaps others are unfamiliar with or see as contributing to the system that hurt them. Imagining you feeling angry and defensive, I feel more open to you as a human being. Mnay of us, myself included put up a front of attacks rather than saying we feel angry and defensive, which might open up a more companionable dialogue. I imagine many psychiatrists, therapists and a while host of other professionals in a variety of fields are trained not to share their feelings, in essence trained out of their humanity. Imagine psychiatrists had to use Non-Violent communication. That would mean no labeling, only identifying feelings and needs and making requests. When you are interpreting you can say “I’m imagining…” or “I’m telling myself…” None of us are perfect at communicating but re-humanizing all experiences is important to me. (Again if you need to protect yourself from violence, that is another conversation, but it isn’t the majority of cases we are talking about, I don;t think). If I were a psychiatrist and you were my patient, I could read: “I feel my neck and head muscles tightened and get angry and defensive and end up thinking that was the goal of the writer, whether it was or not, and that doesn’t help me converse,” and label you paranoid or delusional. But I’m not, so I will just call you a human being. I could call you mentally ill, but it’s not my style. I like that you feel angry because I imagine it might help you to understand how enraging this labeling system is for many people.
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I like this Jonah.
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How does that difficulty feel in your body? What sensations and thoughts do you notice?
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Why is it hard for you to respond? Rather than put it on the other person and label them narrow and enraged, can you describe your experience of the difficulty of responding?
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Thanks for your honesty Mark. I was harmed the most by psychiatrists who are thoughtful and considered, because I trusted them a little bit more than the others. The concern I have with this line of thinking is that the psychiatrists and community aren’t taking responsibility for their part. If you need someone to be on a drugs in order to connect with them, do you ever ask yourself what might be going on with you? Any relationship between 2 individuals should not label one as mentally ill and the other as a doctor. If psychiatrists are doctors of the soul (the literal meaning), why do they need someone to be on a drug in order to love them?
I do appreciate your acknowledgment that suffering can have value. I’ve never found taking a pill to help me work through any issues more easily though. For me it has always been the opposite. On a pill the issues get all muddled up and there are more problems that the pill creates so the whole thing just becomes a huge mess. Others may SEE a person on a pill as being more able to work through things, but it might be a superficial judgement. For me the only time I wasn’t able to shower or take care of myself was when I was on psych drugs.
Perhaps what is needed is a higher level of faith. If we believe those we work with need a pill to work things through, perhaps we don’t hold enough confidence in the human spirit to actually support them. There may actually be enough love in your heart to open up to anyone. My understanding is that love is what heals, which you also elude to. The love needs to be huge to be healing.
If we are too scared to open up to someone because they are violent, smelly, incoherent or something else, that is valid. Yet our own fear is part of the picture. We may feel vulnerable and need to protect ourselves. Our own fears may be getting triggered. We may need to humbly admit we are not capable of helping everyone and do what is necessary to protect ourselves. Let’s just admit when we need to do that.
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I love that Fred! Thanks. I’m working to embrace this paradox, as it is so necessary when discussing ANY “groupings.” It is incredibly challenging to talk about gender. class, race and other life experience categories without using language that makes inaccurate assumptions, yet, I do believe it is better than not talking about these things at all. Thanks for your comments!
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Thanks Corrine!! It means a lot to me to read these words. I love how we can pick up on what others have to offer. Thank you for seeing that in me. Where did we meet?
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Thanks D!
That means a lot to me.
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Thanks Duane! I agree. “There’s a crack in everything. That’s how the light gets in.” Leonard Cohen
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Thank you Jonathan!
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Thank you Tom. Yes, many chosen family are on my path and I am glad to have such wonderful people around me.
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Thanks uprising!
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Thanks Faith!
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🙂
Thanks Copycat. I appreciate the solidarity. 🙂 This comment makes me smile.
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Thanks Melodee!
“For me, when I have those thoughts or feelings, it’s often a sign that something isn’t getting communicated, or that something in my life needs attending to in a serious way. Then my task is to figure out what that is, and how to attend to it — often not an easy thing.”
Yesss!!!
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Thank you Wiley witch! Well said!
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Thanks 🙂
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Thanks Duane!!
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