October 18, 2016 at 1:03 pm #82982October 18, 2016 at 5:23 pm #82990
I agree with what you have said, however for anti-psychiatry to be truly successful, i.e., the complete demise of psychiatry, the problem of why people suffer needs to be address and adequately answered. How can a person overcome depression or anxiety or more serious problems such as what at present is termed “schizophrenia” or “bipolar disorder” etc. These are labels and the conditions are trivially assessed. How do you see that these can be addressed so that the person overcomes the suffering and recovers their state of wellbeing? I think they can be overcome without drugs but I’d like to hear from you. Only when we can address people’s suffering and resolve their problems can we dismantle psychiatry because IMO psychiatry is criminal abuse of power, motivated by greed and with a political agenda.
The Catch 22 of psychiatry, in the setting of a ‘total institution’, is admission of “mental illness”. The person who doesn’t admit to having a “mental illness” is said to be “sicker” than the person who does. Denial of “illness” will keep one from being “discharged” back into their home community. I don’t see any disease there, but I do see a whole lot of brainwashing. You have to have a “disease” or you don’t get released. Judges and juries make mistakes. I would think that it is possible for psychiatrists, and mental health workers, to make mistakes, too. One big mistake is presuming that anybody suffers from a “mental illness”.
How can a person overcome this ‘demon’ or that? The question makes as much sense as the question you asked. You see the ‘demon’ for what it is. Ditto, the “disease”. When you see it for what it is, you see through it. Some people believe in ghosts, however, ghosts harass people less than extraterrestrials these days. Extraterrestrials, barring more lax laws of physics, are more transparent than one might imagine. I’ve heard tales of alien abductions, still, just as with Big Foot, etc., the evidence is all too often less than overwhelming. Perhaps you need someone to help you with things that are overwhelming. That’s understandable.
The truth is that the drugs are, literally, killing people. People, research has shown, do much better who have never been exposed to such drugs. Such people actually do “recover” from the ‘demon’ infestations and harassment that they have experienced as a rule. Long term outcomes, given a daily regimen of pharmaceuticals, are notoriously bad. What’s more, when the drugs don’t cause neurological conditions indicative of brain damage, they cause other physical conditions, such as diabetes and heart disease. Well being is good physical health. Get that, and all else should follow.October 18, 2016 at 7:34 pm #82991
My experience in the “mental health” system has been one mostly of forced treatment. You don’t have to force treatment on anybody who is really sick. Generally, I think the system is about getting rid of unwanted human beings. I think it makes more sense to deal with them (find a use for) than to get rid of them (dump in the loony bin).
I’ve read recent literature suggesting that fools at court were actually suffering from some form of “sickness” or other. I could say the same thing about the Marx Brothers, Laurel and Hardy, the Three Stooges, etc. Actually, the actors I’m speaking of were probably more artificial fools than of the natural sort, but if that’s a distinction requiring the services of a psychiatrist to ascertain, maybe not.October 18, 2016 at 7:54 pm #82993uprisingParticipant
How do you see that these [mental/emotional problems] can be addressed so that the person overcomes the suffering and recovers their state of wellbeing?
Frank (essentially) wrote:
Easy: We deny these problems’ existence.October 19, 2016 at 1:39 am #82998
That’s not what I said. I certainly don’t deny the existence of problems, however problems are not diseases. I think rather than what you refer to as “mental/emotional problems” what we actually have are social (relationship and communication) problems. Sometimes they are problems that arise out of inequality and power disparities. Social solutions are rarer, but if one’s works at it, sometime you find some of those, too. I’m not sure the best approach is to indulge the self-indulgence of self-indulgent people. I think the solution is to look beyond the self to the world. If obsession becomes a problem. What do you do? The logical thing to do would be to cease obsessing. Some people say they don’t have that much control. I say they do.October 19, 2016 at 11:00 am #83010
Frank, it is true that those caught in the system have to agree to having a disease in order to be released. However those people once released together with the friends of psychiatric abuse survivors need to get together and show that there is no disease. At present the public has been brainwashed and terrorized, I would say, into believing not only in mental diseases but that the people who are labelled as mentally ill are dangerous to society. The way this has been done is that whenever there have been mass shootings psychiatrist use the media at a time when people are afraid and shocked to sell the idea that the criminal who did the shootings was mentally ill and particularly labeling them as schizophrenic. They essentially imprint into the public collective mind the idea that there is mental illness and that it is a threat to their safety and that they, the psychiatrists are needed to address the problem. This is a gross betrayal of public trust. This treachery needs to be exposed and the public shown the truth. The people committing crimes are not mentally ill but criminals. Criminals do crimes willfully in the full knowledge of what they are doing.October 19, 2016 at 11:13 am #83011
I found that the “demons” have names and addresses and phone numbers, flesh and blood and bones. They are always related people in the person’s life, who abuse relationship to play mind games and for various reasons. These reasons include:
1. gaining power and influence over the other person,
2. taking revenge or punishing the other person
3. always to get their narcissistic supply, i.e., to get pleasure from seeing the pain and suffering of the other person.
I call these abusers “toxic people” but the psychiatric profession has many labels for them including psychopathic, narcisstic, sociopathic and so on. They claim them as personality disorders. These people are criminals but not obvious for the underhanded way that they abuse. And they have medical cover because the biomedical community deny the fundamental basis, which is the ability of people WITHIN relationship to be able to perceive mentally presented ideas.
There is some research done in parapsychology but from what I see the results are diluted by including some subjects that are very closely related with others that are only trivially related. Thus they may claim “yes we see some effect” but it is a blip that they then look to justify using statistics. If the experiments were done properly the effects would be obvious.
And it is also important to say that a person, such as a psychiatrist, who is not a part of the person’s interpersonal environment , is not privy to that environment. And yet psychiatrists sit in judgement of the person’s interpersonal world and claim it imaginary. This needs to be demonstrated and it will never be demonstrated in academia. It needs humane people to do the experiments and make them public.October 19, 2016 at 11:36 am #83012
The WHO has done studies that show that people in poorer countries, who don’t have access to drugs and psychiatrists recover from their problems. It is a pointer that the drugs may do enough damage to the person’s brain as to prevent recovery, especially if they become dependent on the drugs or take them over a long term.
But I also see another reason. In many of the first world countries there is still some degree of real community, i.e., people caring for one another and interacting with one another in a way that is supportive. I remember an incident when I was holidaying in Greece that I had never seen in Australia. I was living in a suburban area where I had met a number of the locals. Then for a few days I had the flu and I decided to stay home. On the second day, late in the afternoon, one of my neighbors knocked on my door and asked how I was. She said “we had not seen you around for a few days now and we are wondering if you are okay”. And she had brought a bowl of soup for me. I was very surprised and grateful but I had not even met this woman, though as it turned out I had met some of her folk.
In Australia the contrary is true. I have heard of people dying in their homes and not been discovered for months. No one really cares about another person. Everyone is too busy trying to get what they can for themselves. And we are encourage by various means to be self-centered in order t be normal and successful. I think in the first world community has been ripped to pieces. So the person, who is abused, does not have the support they need. Added to that they are seen as someone to be wary of, someone that “we are better off without”. This gives psychiatrists business and a reason to exist but it means more and more erosion of community.October 19, 2016 at 12:37 pm #83023
kyrani99, I agree that people oppressed by the “mental health” system need to get together in order to survive and fight the system. I’m not one who thinks that such activities necessarily include working in, and for, the “mental health” system. I tend to see working in the “mental health” system as treasonous activity.
The Insanity Defense is something that taints the whole business. Civil commitment is all about scapegoating a certain segment of the population. It isn’t about health at all. It’s about throwing away people for being different, for breaking the mold, so-to-speak, for not being all “apple pie” and “ice cream”, mahogany desks and three piece suits.
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. The people who manage the “mental health” system have been “demons”, flesh and blood “demons”, in my case as well, that is to say, their interests and mine, despite sentiment and rhetoric, don’t coincide. I guess the honcho top-dogs, in that category, are psychiatrists.
The social Darwinism that accompanies laissez-faire capitalism is very much a major part of the problem. You point to the WHO studies in developing countries. I hear through Robert Whitaker that due to the exportation of western medicine the outcomes in poorer countries are coming more and more to resemble those in the west.
I think it is good to have a sense of community, and that, yes, there are places in which that sense of community is vanishing, if not non-existent. Given this situation, people need to create their own communities, pockets of resistance and caring you might call them.October 19, 2016 at 4:11 pm #83043
I agree with what you have said. I think that trying to fix the system from within won’t work. There are some good academics but they are either too afraid to go against the system because they get marginalized or worse or they are up against those who for money will do whatever the drug companies want of them. There are plenty of academics who will do research in a way that muddies the waters and creates the very ground that supports psychiatry. And the research has to pass the scrutiny of reproducibility. This is reasonable but many experiments can and are being tampered with so that they appear to not be reproducible.
For example, the experiments that Dr Sheldrake did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QsPWitQovM about dogs that know when their owners are coming home demonstrates a non-material common mind or mental platform through which we all interrelate mentally. His experiments it is claimed are not reproducible. IMO what has happened is that the dogs are covertly threatened and dogs can detect that easily, so they become nervous and focused on the threat and won’t show signs of knowing .their owners are coming home.This is treachery. And the same is with the experiments that have been done to supposedly show that the immune system kills cancer cells. The experiments are not valid. They are claiming them as proof of concept but the cancer cells they are generating are not real cancer cells but artifacts.
What I see is needed is that the public need to become aware of the demons in their lives, who are directly associated with their problems. And the time is right because mental health is only the tip of the iceberg. I found the same basic issues also apply to physical disease. We are sold the idea of physical causes but it is ideas, which have become beliefs that are at the heart of all disease.
I have suffered some small amount of anxiety years ago but most of my problems were bad physical diseases like cancer and diabetes and some heart problems. I could see that all of them had involved ideas and emotional reactivity but I never understood what was going on very well. Then towards the end of his life, my husband revealed to me that he was toxic and he also revealed how toxic people operate and the nature of the foul games they play. This knowledge (which I have documented in this series of 5 videos total 1hr 40mins) The events that took place and my husband’s revelations in the first video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QsPWitQovM (24 mins). The things I learnt from him and what I was able to realize since in subsequent circumstance, have helped me overcome everything that has been thrown at me because since he died I became an activist. In trying to help expose toxic people and their methods, I have seriously upset a lot of toxic people.
The same issues underlie mental problems as physical problems. So there is a huge number of people in the community who will be interested. The number of toxic/ inhumane people are said to be 2 or 3 percent but I found it is more like 15 to 20 percent. But that still leaves the majority of 80 percent who are humane and who would again rebuild community once they realize that their own health is at issue. The most basic issues have to do with relationship and ESP within relationship. It is this that the psychiatric profession is trying to destroy by claiming that a). mental illness exists and b). that it is a brain disease, i.e., physical.
The treachery of psychiatry protects the pharmaceutical industry in all aspects of its business. But once people begin to find that they can get well without medications and medical procedures, psychiatry is finished. It is only a house of cards.October 20, 2016 at 2:38 pm #83135
Working within the system, usually, means colluding with an expanding system. I don’t think there would be any way for me not to have serious moral qualms about doing so. Working outside of the system, and against the system, means opposing that expansion. The running joke propagated by conventional psychiatry is that 1 in 5 people have a “mental illness”. This is absolute nonsense. This 20 % figure reflects the growing medicalization of society in general. We would be much better off, and healthier, with less medicalization, not more. Much talk is also being made about people with “mental illness” who are not receiving treatment. Problem: some people are receiving treatment they don’t want, and others are not receiving treatment because they don’t want to receive treatment. The 20 % figure doesn’t give anybody credit for no longer receiving treatment. You’d think, because of it, the applicable maxim should read, “once in treatment, always in treatment”. “Over it” is not a situation the system accepts.
Curious that your 15 to 20 % estimate for “toxic people” should rival the estimates by “mental health” professionals of the numbers of people with “mental illness” in the nation (&, possibly, world). I can only see in both claims bunk.October 23, 2016 at 10:55 am #83245
The figure I quote for toxic people is based on the number of people that it takes to hassle and trouble another person. The person troubled is then labelled mentally ill. But so-called mental illness is not the total of the problem by a long way, but only the tip of the iceberg. Most physical diseases have nothing to do with any environmental factors and everything to do with the way a person reacts to ideas and the subsequent bodily reactivity or what is called the nocebo effect. And they have done some dreadful experiments where they have either seriously harmed or killed people and as a result have outlawed any experiments on the nocebo effect. So the effect can now never be tested and examined scientifically. How very convenient for the drug companies!
The 20% that is claimed for mental illness has NOTHING to do with my figure at all. It has a lot to do with drugging aged people, especially in old age homes, who are not sick at all. It is done for the convenience of the staff and most old age homes can run their establishment with less staff by drugging the aged people in their homes. It comes down to profits again. If someone is agitated because their meal was brought to them or they needed a drink of water and there was no one to help them then they are considered a problem and drugged. This amounts to quite a sizeable number of people. The other big group is children with the mythical disease of ADHD. This is criminal and more so because teachers in schools can bring the child that is less attentive or more active in a classroom (usually oversized classroom where one teacher can’t cope) to the school counselors with a recommendation of needing a diagnosis for possible ADHD. So the children are forcibly drugged or parents would have to home school. This is a disgusting practice and only serves the sale of drugs to the detriment of the child’s health.
The percentage that take medications at present, even if you add in those who have stopped taking medication, you will find are a small percentage and possibly about 2 or 3 percent, maybe 5 percent but I doubt it is more than that. Also the 1 in 5 have a mental illness that is at present quoted is based on the DSM 4. If you look at the DSM 5 you will find that they have pushed the boundaries back so far that normal might be counted as 1 in 5 and mentally ill as 3 to 4 out of 5. This has nothing to do with disease but politics. Psychiatry is about gaining control and creating a tyrannical state inside every democracy.
Working inside the system won’t work because the drug companies, though the doctors they have in their pockets, simply use definitions and descriptions to redefine the same bullshit as they had before but in a new and seemingly changed perspective until people realize it is just window dressing. Then they start over again with the same sort of tactics. It is all about damage control. You can never bring about change from inside the system. I have worked in research at the university from which I got my degree and I saw what happens from the inside. There is more politics and backstabbing than there is in industry.
Working outside the system is the only way to go but that involves educating people about what is happening in their lives. Community is non-existent in most western countries and corruption is rife. We are living in a sewer if the truth be known. This is what we have to deal with. Helping people overcome their problems and not get sick. From what I am seeing lay people are going to need to do the experiments that demonstrate the nocebo effect. Not by doing harmful experiments that kill people but by experiments that show the harmful nocebo effect just enough. Then by debriefing the person they see how the problem in their body arose and how it then disappears. This is empowerment. This then means the whole medical system downsizes enormously and psychiatry collapses and in both cases because the funding has evaporated. No amount of advertising of “you need this drug ask your doctor” on TV is going to get them any revenue because people will be healthy. That is the goal.October 23, 2016 at 6:07 pm #83258
I agree with most of what you say here, but I’m a little more cynical about the prospects.
Funny that we see no experiments on the nocebo effect. I’m sure that that has much to do with what is going on in some cases.
According to the statistics I’ve seen, psych-drugs are much more prevalent than you suggest. 2,3, even 5 % is an “I wish” sort of thing. It is politics, surely, but rotten politics.
Working inside the system, as a rule, expands the system. This is why people work outside of the system in the first place, they are against this sort of expansion.
I’d like to see the house of cards collapse, problem is, many people are more concerned about pumping money into it. Eventually, the problem is going to be such, in an economic sense, that nobody is going to be able to ignore it. The system is going to have to downsize because people are not going to be able to ignore the bogus dimensions of it due to the impending economic collapse it will be facilitating. The problem is sustainability, you get more people not working than are working, and sustainability gets to be a issue as the latter are supporting the former.October 24, 2016 at 8:30 am #83283
I’m sorry I didn’t express myself very clearly. I meant the number of people who could possibly be justified giving drugs to, to give some relief (and really only short term relief is all that can be justified) is 2 to 3% and maybe upto 5%. I know a lot more than that are on psychotropic drugs but these are not justified, eg people in old aged home need care not drugging and young kids at school need better, smaller classes and teacher that are interested in teaching and inspiring children and not wanting an easy job. Otherwise, I agree with you it would only be a wish list.
I suspect that most, if not all the problems people suffer and for which they are labeled as mentally ill, has to do with toxic relationship and toxic people, who look decent, but who behind the appearances are rubbish. I know this only too well. I have first order relatives, who to my face would say “hello lovie, how you going lovie” and behind my back they were working to stab me. The psychiatrist do no nocebo experiments at all, which means they deny the reality. Instead they talk about misfiring neurons and malfunctioning fight or flight /fear responses. People don’t appreciate how corrupt the system is. I don’t know how it can be done, but I think it is vital that somehow nocebo experiments need to be done as to show people how a person can be seriously maltreated through a toxic relationship. No one feels fear for no reason. There is always a reason but it is underhanded.
I agree with you 100% that any attempt to work inside the system will only expand it. The corrupt elements simply go into damage control. They use definitions and reasoning as weapons and move to broaden the boundaries. This is in part due to an agenda by the drug companies to try and justify selling more and more drugs. Another part, I suspect, has also to do with those that want a new world order, which is code for tyranny.
I think there is an economic aspect, that it will lead to economic hardship at least, if not collapse. But I don’t think simply from an economic point of view the problem will go away. The US spends way, way more on wars and foreign affairs than they do on health and welfare so it would take a lot to collapse the system economically. And while people are suffering they will try to get some relief, no matter what economic environment exists. That is why I think that while people are in the dark about the real problems they face they will turn to drugs. And don’t forget those that profit from the drugs, which includes of course the big pharma agents, aka psychiatrists, have reason to pressure governments to provide drugs to people no matter how bad the economy may get. It is all about moving money vertically upwards from the public purse into the bank accounts of the ultra rich.
Drugs are sold to the public under the banner and legitimacy of science. So they sway public opinion to buy into this garbage, not realizing that the drugs have no scientific basis. There is no evidence that the drugs help. On the contrary there is evidence that the drugs make things worse overall. The drugs possibly put them into some mentally numb state so they don’t comprehend or are not aware of their problems but the problems haven’t gone away. And the drugs do serious harm, like diabetes and heart disease and worse.. death.
I still think the only way the system will collapse is when people wake up to the reality of how they are being adversely affected. Only then will they have the knowledge and knowledge is power. Once ideas that trouble them are seen as a hoax, as some bogus, hateful suggestion of people that are fake in their lives, can they discharge those ideas. Because while they believe the ideas they will continue to be troubled and look for something to get relief because the troubling translates to ongoing adverse bodily reactivity. That is why they turn to drugs, whether legal or illegal, alcohol and any other activities that can change how they feel. So once you can take away the problem, i.e., help people see through the mirage and overcome their problems, then the system collapse happens.
I see that the methods used to trouble people are the same whether we are talking about physical disease or so-called mental illness. That is why I am working to try and educate people about how toxic people operate, raise awareness and help people overcome all disease. It means there is a huge majority that is suffering physical illness that can suddenly realize the same problem exists for them as for those that have this mythical mental illness. The only thing that differs is the ideas /suggestions. For example he idea of “it’s hopeless” causes a person depression, where as an idea of “a lot get wasted” (and hashed to “a lot.. get wasted” to change the meaning) may lead to ovarian or testicular cancer. Of course there is more to the story, but these are the basic ideas/ suggestions. The problem comes when the person doesn’t realize that the fear they feel is unrelated to the ideas. They upgrade the ideas to beliefs and hence react somatically because they think the fear is evidence for the idea. This is the linchpin. Once they see through this they are home free. They do want drugs anymore because they are not suffering anymore. Psychiatry dies.
October 24, 2016 at 1:31 pm #83294
- This reply was modified 3 years, 4 months ago by kyrani99.
First, thinking that 2 or 3 % of the population might require these substances is what led to the present mess. Psych-drugs are drugs not medicine. They are also harmful, and tend to be ineffective. One thinks about Mad Magazine parodies of cigarette advertisements. Ultimately, they feed the graveyards.
I’m not one to conceive an end to suffering. I think suffering is a part of living. I just don’t think drugs are any way to deal with suffering. One faces one’s suffering and deals with it in the best way that one is able. “Grin and bear it”, as the saying goes. Stoicism is also a part of life.
I think when psychiatry is exposed as non-medical pseudo-science people will turn away from it. Should “mental illness” be proven non-existent, psychiatrists become con-artists. Nobody needs to be sending people to medical school so that they can operate fraudulently. Treating “well” people as if they were “sick” is fraud, and the practice should be prosecuted in a court of law, not rewarded. Exposure of psychiatry should lead to the withdrawal of its legal sanction eventually. Fraud…is fraud.
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