Wednesday, July 17, 2019

The Bridge

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This topic contains 1,155 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  The_cat 6 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #46315

    boans
    Participant

    Just watched this documentary about suicide and the Golden Gate bridge.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3iw-9O4ONI

    Some interesting perspectives on “why they did it”.

    #46319

    humanbeing
    Participant

    This video is not available in our country! I understand they just installed more protective fencing to cut down on the suicides. Wonder why they don’t want AmeriKans to see this?

    #46326

    boans
    Participant

    I believe it’s about copyright issues human being. There is probably a copy on you tube that you can get in the USA. It’s worth a look. Couple of people discuss briefly the link between medication and making matters worse.

    I don’t know if the footage they have of people on the bridge is real or not, but it sure looks like it was a regular event. Certainly they claim there were 24 jumpers in 2004.

    I followed watching this with another doco called Into The Abyss, about a death row inmate in Texas lol.

    I did start watching an old Robin Williams movie called Being Human (A relation of yours? lol) but it just didn’t grab me so….

    #46330

    humanbeing
    Participant

    Just popping in here-boans; fer chrissake, who wouldn’t want to commit suicide watching all this gloom?…Do you ever just get out and walk? I don’t know why we’re here on this planet, it all seems like some cruel joke a lot of the time, but sometimes just one small thing will make life tolerable-beautiful, if you will, even.

    Funny is good right now, too. Sorry the Robin Willams film didn’t work out-I just looked it up and it looks rather interesting! Maybe I’ll see if the library has it-hah.

    I have a friend who is very ‘spriritual’-in fact, recently, I keep running across this theme; we are in a dream…this is a projection- a result of the properties of the universe-a hallogram, a dream, if you will (Donnie Darko stuff, boans) and yet-AND YET I still can’t shake the longing, the wish to connect, to be a positive influence on my fellow humans and the planet…Is Maslow’s heirarchy of needs just a bunch of human tinkering that is really pointless drivel? My ‘spriritual’ friend assures me there is another manifestation of this life I lead after I die…and if I leave the planet now, I will come back into the same level of hell as the one I left. We humans are always trying to make sense out of the chaos-maybe that is our fatal flaw as a species?

    Thanks for all the movie/music suggestions on that other thread…don’t think I will pursue this particular vid today; I’m rather enjoying my mindless pop culture DVDs at the moment! I’m sure the despair will take me down again-maybe then…

    I hope you feel better soon…it may take some time, but nothing ever stays the same. Peace out bro.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  humanbeing.
    #46335

    schizoeffective
    Participant

    I wish I could “like” or “thumbs up” all of your comments. This is something I wrote in response to Henry Rollins recent condemnation of Robin’s suicide. He doesn’t get it. It’s just a bit easier to face each day when you are a famous rock star with issues. Most of us just trudge ahead in obscurity. It looks like a few days later he has been schooled.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2732155/Henry-Rollins-slams-Robin-Williams-killing-reveals-disdain-people-lives.html

    I tried to post the following comment on the original Daily Mail article. Shockingly, (feel the sarcasm) it didn’t make it through the moderators. Always a day late and a dollar short, that’s me, I bet that’s a lot of you too…

    Anyway, here it is:

    “I know what it is like to live a life full of nearly constant depression, psychosis, pain and extreme difficulty. As a disabled person sexually abused during most of my childhood my life is not, ever, free of pain. Each and every day I make the same choice to stubbornly face it, and never, ever disrespect my life by leaving it. I have contemplated suicide before, but never seriously. But once, 10 years ago, that level of pain suddenly and without warning ratcheted up a billion fold. For those 5 minutes, I was not remotely human, there was no me to make a decision. There was just an animal in a dim red haze, instinctively ready to gnaw it’s way out of a trap. I almost calmly started walking toward the drawer of knives in my house. By some miracle, a friend stopped by, and my mind snapped back into place. It has never even come close to happening since, and I pray to the forgotten gods it never will. I would never believe it if I hadn’t experienced it. Even in many years of dealing with long periods of psychosis I have never experienced anything even close to it. I do not think Henry ever has.”

    You guys who keep relentlessly posting here are the real rock stars in my opinion. Thank you all so much.

    Your minds and hearts shine very brightly.

    Ps. My beloved art school mentor, shot himself a few years ago. He was a man who lived a life of quiet steadiness that inspired so many of us. He had been ill for a short time, and was prescribed an antidepressant just before… This happened. I have no doubt it was the reason he fell from a life of grim determination. He shot himself in his basement with his son and wife upstairs. I think he hit that “red zone”. I think if someone had interrupted him that moment would have passed. He is so missed by the hundreds of students his life touched. Rest in peace E.C.

    http://www.metnews.org/features/the-legacy-of-a-printmaker/

    #46345

    boans
    Participant

    The dream thing is certainly something I have come across many times in my studies humanbeing.

    I’m not sure if it was Yukio Mishima, or if he was talking about one of the Japanese philosophers who believed that it was the dream world that was our reality and that our waking state was the illusion. My own feelings are that it is a continuum, that dreams are what the mind does when the body is in rest mode. The mind/body split doesn’t apply except for the purpose of analysis, and leads to false conclusions.

    One of the greatest books I ever read was George Herbert Mead, Mind, Self and Society (1926). It the first part, Mind, he sets out this mind body (brain) split, and seeks to understand the ‘mind’ alone. Removing the biological in this way has it’s problems, but it does help in understanding the fragile nature of thoughts etc. I stated in another thread about how I felt that my mind had been poisoned. If (and its a big if) our whole lives are mere dream states, then a single event has turned what was a blissful dream into a nightmare that has continued for nearly three years now. Using Meads’ model the ‘mind’ has destroyed my sense of ‘self’, and how I structured my ‘society’. These two things will NEVER be the same again, and the nightmare can only continue until nothingness. My inability to reconcile what constitutes my mind, with my previous structure of self and society has put me in Hell. Just as an example, I believed that there was such a thing as the law, that protected my ‘self’ from the criminal acts of others, and that ‘society’ had mechanisms for dealing with this. I have had it demonstrated to me that this is not the case. My ‘self’ matters nought to anyone else, and the illusion of the law does not in fact exist.

    As an example, there was a man here who was eventually labelled the “30 second rapist” (Kevin Ibbs). His wife conspired with her friend to encourage him into having sex with her, and then withdrew consent at the crucial moment (30 seconds before orgasm). He was convicted of rape and sent to prison for 4 years. The poison was administered, his whole view of ‘self’ and a belief in ‘society’ destroyed. But he did not commit suicide, he fought and eventually his wife and her friend were convicted, and his sentence overturned. Did this restore his prior belief in ‘self’ or ‘society’? Perhaps a little, justice was served in the end right? It is my belief that in his ‘mind’ that the poison was never neutralised and after ten years f struggle with his new ‘mental structure’ he just could no longer face the day, and was found dead under a bridge.

    We look at event immediately prior to a suicide, but very rarely look at where the poison was injected into the mind of the person. Recognise that point (or points) and it is perfectly understandable. My poison was administered on the 30th Sept 2011. Will it eventually kill me? I believe so, though I struggle each day trying to get others to understand why, in the hope that with some form of justice that the damage being done by the poison can be stopped.

    I know I’m not being very clear, but feel sure that those of us who have seen this dark landscape, and have visited on many occasions would understand what I’m saying. Contiguity is deceiving when it comes to suicide.

    Shame they didn’t publish your comment shizoeffective. I think that what i’m saying here is borne out by your comment. Events many years ago still poison your everyday life. I’ve got to go now so will leave my thoughts there.

    Sweet dreams all.

    #46350

    schizoeffective
    Participant

    Well fucking said boans.

    I was abused as a woman, by a man who was abused by a woman,
    who was abused by a man…
    Etcetera
    Ad Nauseum.

    Cause and effect doom us all.

    We decide to cut that Gordian Knot.
    Male or female, it ends …

    HERE.

    In our broken bodies, minds, and souls.
    Hearts Intact.

    “Once upon a time, I, Zhuangzi, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Zhuangzi. Soon I awakened, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man. Between a man and a butterfly there is necessarily a distinction. The transition is called the transformation of material things.”

    #46352

    boans
    Participant

    I would like to explore this concept of ‘poisoning the mind’ a little further. I have been going over the contents of the above documentary, and trying to blend my experiences with that of others. To do this I will walk right into the trap of being accused of reductionism. I have severely criticised the science of psychiatry for this, and am aware of how vulnerable my position on these issues is. I can see no other way of resolving the chicken and the egg problem.

    The first and primary issue for me is one of responsibility. I believe that there was a plan made to murder the prophet Mohammed (SAW) in which it was decided that he should be speared in the chest by 7 attackers. This way no one man could be held responsible for his death, and no one could be sure that they had delivered the blow which killed him. What I gathered from the story as it was told to me was that the attackers would not have knowledge that they had committed the sin, and may therefore be forgiven by God. In brief, they were looking for a loophole in the commandment “thou shalt not kill”. I feel sure that those who have been subjected to forced psychiatry would be fully aware of how this type of diffusion of responsibility works within the mental health system. One is not attacked by a sole individual but a team, who can then wash their hands of any real responsibility should this be necessary. One can justify ones actions on the basis that it was not them who delivered the fatal blow, and they therefore need not ask forgiveness as they have done nothing wrong. It is highly effective, and allows the system to maintain itself, and not be subjected to loss of members as a result of negligence. If every act of negligence were punished, there would be no one left to do the job. Ergo, only the most gross acts of negligence or corruption will be pursued by those within the system.

    This problem of causality and responsibility is an extremely difficult area as any lawyer who has dealt with negligence claims will testify. A psychiatrist hits you on the head with a hammer, and as a result you loose the function of a large part of your brain, and can no longer walk, then causality and responsibility are fairly clear (but by no means absolute even in this type of situation). But what about where there is damage to the ‘mind’? How do we establish causality and therefore responsibility? This is particularly problematic.

    Of course this is the forest in which we find mental health professionals hiding. Ask a psychiatrist to identify structure and function of the brain and they will have little difficulty. Though I would argue that function is a little more difficult than structure. Major neurotransmitters? No problem. But how does this biological process actually produce ‘mind’?

    I am struck by the similarity to gardening. The right soil, and pH, correct nutrients, regular pruning, pest control etc and a thing of beauty is produced. But what is beauty? A subjective interpretation.

    If the plant is sick, then the gardener may do certain things to revive it. Check soil pH, feed correctly, treat with chemicals and if they are skilled they may succeed. In this sense forced psychiatry consists of ripping the plant out by the roots, savagely cutting it back, throwing random chemicals over it and crossing ones fingers. Much damage is done in the hope that something good will come of it. It is here that we see the most brutal aspects of the psychiatric system. There is so little invested in revival by the psychiatrist. So like the gardener they will do what they can given their experience, but care little if the plant survives. Though what is done when the plant is owned by the gardener and is a 400 year old bonsai tree? The investment here is much different. In this case best practice is followed, tools are sterilised, and every precaution taken. So the attitude is one of “we do our best given the resources we have, and consistent with our level of investment”.

    This is important for me because when my wife rang mental health services on the 30th Sept 2011 she was expecting me to be treated like the bonsai (her investment was large). What she got was a man who ripped her bonsai out of the soil, cut off most of the foliage, and threw it in the back of his van with the intention of doing something about it later. He cared little about the history of this plant or whether it survived his treatment. This is just how they deal with all of their plants. Once the experienced gardener at the hospital (the psychiatrist) actually examined the plant he realised that it’s removal was totally unnecessary and that what was left was put into a pot and returned to my wife. She had a stick returned, that was unlikely to survive even with great care.

    I like the plant/gardening analogy because like the plant I got no say in any of this. It was done to me without my consent, and despite my protestation. And the ‘treatment’ was as if I were a weed, rather than anything of value. Im sure this attitude comes from years of working with people labelled mentally ill, and a gradual devaluing of their worth to mental health professionals.

    Anyhow I digress. The poisoning of my mind was done in stages, and I believe this is best understood by examining each stage to identify the ‘poison’ that was administered, and the ‘organs’ that were effected by it.

    To do this will require an understanding of the relationship between attitudes, beliefs and values. It is these three concepts that have been damaged by certain events, and it is here that we can see clearly the progression of ‘disease’ as a result of the actions of others.

    To be continued….

    #46353

    uprising
    Participant

    ^This is excellent, boans. Look forward to more.

    The psychiatrist always has the mythical “underlying disease” on which to blame whatever harm his/her quackery has caused to the “patient.” So, to stay with the plant analogy, they will say, “We did everything we could for this wretched plant, but it was too sick to save.” Never mind that in reality, their own bunging murdered it.

    I also really like the discussion of “treatment teams” and defused responsibility. I think this is right on target.

    #46355

    boans
    Participant

    As I have stated above I accept the model of mind presented by G.H.Mead in his book Mind, Self and Society.

    I also accept that mind is formed and reformed through a process of interaction between the concept of self, and perceived societal structures. It is as a result of this interaction that we develop attitudes, beliefs and values. I have read about this though can not reference any particular work in this regard. However, from memory these three concepts are to be understood in terms of a hierarchical structure, with attitudes being loose and ill defined, and values being rigid and fairly fixed.

    Some dictionary definitions.

    Attitudes. “a settled way of thinking or feeling about something.”

    Beliefs. “an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof” and “trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something).”

    Values. “principles or standards of behaviour; one’s judgement of what is important in life.”

    Attitudes can be changed fairly easily, they can be challenged and the person who holds the attitudes usually looses very little if they are challenged and seen as being ‘faulty’.

    Beliefs lie a little deeper in the structure of mind. A belief in God, or in the effectiveness of a treatment would be examples. To challenge these is a little more difficult, as it may involve a major shift in how the person perceives their world.

    Values are at the very core. The value of human life, or the sanctity of marriage come to mind. It is from values that the persons whole way of viewing the world is generated. They are guiding principles, and if challenged can cause major psychological disturbances for a person.

    If I have time I may look further into this model and give some references for it. I do not have the skill or ability to describe the interaction between these concepts here, though hope the reader understands what I am trying to say. I will attempt to show how certain events resulted in numerous attacks on my core values, and the effect that this has had on my mind. Has a ‘chemical imbalance’ come about as a result of these changes? I have no idea, and the doctors have not tested for any such change. Would taking medication change the chemical balance of my brain? Certainly, but it would not restore my mind to it’s previous state. And there lies the problem for me. It would cause change, but NOT restore. That could never be achieved. I am therefore left with a situation where I adapt and develop a new way of perceiving the world minus the values, beliefs and attitudes that I held, or remove myself from this hideous new ‘reality’ in which I find myself.

    After stepping in front of a truck and ending up in hospital, I was regularly examined by a psychiatrist. Dr Baker is one of the most honorable men I have met in my life. I asked him what he saw as the reason for my attempted suicide, and he responded by identifying three contributing factors.

    1. Loss of employment(10%).
    2. Family conflict (20%)
    3. Trauma suffered as a result of detention (and subsequent events) on the 30th Sept 2011 (70%).

    I am in agreement with him on this. I have added percentages to each of these based solely on my subjective judgement. I will give brief details of 1. and 2. and focus mainly on 3.

    To be continued…..

    #46356

    boans
    Participant

    Thanks Uprising,

    it was a discussion with humanbeing that got me thinking about the gardening analogy. I actually had a pesticides/herbicides license and got to thinking about my use of chemicals to effect the biology of plants. In that sense I get to play psychiatrist lol. What really strikes me is the investment that each party has in the outcome. Sure I will do my best to make your lawn look like a professional football field, but all I have is this herbicide and not a lot of time. What are the consequences if I fail? Well, you no longer employ me as your lawn is now dying or dead, and I move on to the next lawn. Cost to me, maybe my reputation might be damaged a bit, cost to you, no lawn. However, where forced psychiatry is concerned you don’t get to decide if I will be employed, and even if you know i’m killing your lawn, there isn’t a damn thing you can do about it. In fact, I can have a fence erected to keep you from even walking on it. Of course you can appeal the decision, to my fellow groundskeepers association (who I pay a subscription to and you don’t). Good luck with that lol.

    I think the diffusion of responsibility is really important because it’s something we all do as social beings. It’s just that the consequences where psychiatry and health care is concerned can be fatal. Holding people accountable would increase the standards of health care immeasurably. I understand why doctors fear accountability so much, but the situation is enabling negligence and corruption and will do them more damage in the end.

    #46359

    humanbeing
    Participant

    It’s not just health care-it’s all of modern ‘civilization’s institutions.

    My date was July 24, 2000. I was served with papers by the sheriff at my place of employment that took my children and my home without my ever being brought before a judge.

    Will try to follow this as best I can with my damaged brain-concepts are hard for me to grasp. It makes me angry that I’ve been robbed of all the things I valued/found meaning in by a diagnosis and crippled so there’s not much I can do about it.

    Yup. I’m drawn to knives, myself.

    #46374

    boans
    Participant

    I suppose as an Australian humanbeing I should do the Crocodile Dundee thing and say “That’s not a knife, now THAT’S a knife” lol

    I didn’t realise that your trauma started so long ago. That has been one Hell of a loss for you. It is difficult to understand in some ways because of the differences in our systems. And of course the only contact I had with psychiatry before my experience was voluntary on two occasions where I was seeing a social worker for a bit of counseling. And a couple of appointments to have a report written about the psychological damage as a result of my work situation. I’ll go into this a little more once I expand on the above.

    The court system doesn’t get involved as far as I know unless all other avenues have been exhausted first. So this may involve months of incarceration and Mental Health tribunal reviews before you could get to even put a case to a judge. The tribunals are made up of a psychiatrist, a legal representative, and a layperson I believe. Which usually means the decision of the psychiatrist is what goes. I know that what tends to happen is that just before a person is to appear before a tribunal, they are made into voluntary patients, and then made into involuntary patients once the tribunal date has passed (usually without the person even knowing). So your detained for a year, released and then detained for another year, and never get to put your case before a judge. Nice little loophole that gets exploited when psychiatrists don’t wish their work to be scrutinised.

    Bit like being charged with a crime, held in prison until the court date, released without charge, and then arrested on the same charge as soon as you walk out the prison gate. I know that even with what you describe as a damaged brain humanbeing, I really appreciate your input and comments. I sometimes feel like I’m talking to myself lol.

    I just finished re watching “Did you used to be R D Laing?” There is one part that really was like a slap in the face for me. At 34 min, he speaks about “The Lies of Love”. I sure would have liked him as a psychiatrist that’s for sure. It drove home what was so good about our marriage, and the ‘mistake’ I made of trusting the person that I loved. Worth watching that short piece, and the piece on the “politics of Psychiatry” at 1:19.

    I’m drawn to the presidential suite at the Hyatt myself. One of the two happiest days of my life. And how ironic that it will be me shoving the medication they provide down my throat instead of them lol.

    Strange coincidence. I sat next to Jerry Hall in the Hyatt for dinner one night, and then Mick Jagger was staying there when his girlfriend killed herself, and they cancelled their tour while he returned to NY.

    #46378

    humanbeing
    Participant

    I just watched it myself; I liked that particular segment as well…the bit about not trusting our own reality and believing the beloved’s interpretation…my kids are doing that now, all these years later. I am so confused about who I am and what I’m suppose to be.

    Another bad day-I can’t keep up with all you intellectuals…will try and follow the best I can.

    O-and I would never use pills…something about the chemical feel to it; this benzo experience has taken that option off the table.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  humanbeing.
    • This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  humanbeing.
    #46385

    boans
    Participant

    Yes, he was certainly referring to the process of ‘gaslighting’. It’s a waterfall, not a naked woman. It is insidious, and would certainly constitute parental alienation if it is being done to turn your kids against you humanbeing.

    I think Laing’s advice about trying to live in the moment is good. Though as he also said, difficult to do.

    There is so much in what he was saying. On the surface it was almost ‘shallow’ and yet the consequences when you begin examining it are astounding.

    Maybe a joke might help humanbeing.

    Two cannibals are sitting eating a clown. One says to the other “Does this taste funny to you?”

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