Sunday, December 10, 2017

Comments by AntiP

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  • Well said, Sera Davidow (at September 10, 2017 at 8:48 pm ).
    Is a bit amazing that in the days between the Patrick Hendry original post and your post… despiste all the nonsenses he wrote… MIA has not been able to dissecate the many lies. And you Sera were well at that.

    Patrick Hendry, i am amazed that that your original post fits MIA standards.
    Most people that did passed the disgrace that is the peer fakes, dont know. Those that were inside, know you full of…

  • Quote from Frank:”Most of us are not members of the 1 %”.

    Well, some are 🙂 Quote: “About 1.1% of adults have schizophrenia in the United States”.

    link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia
    ……..

    Now if you were tallking about the top 1% with more money at the USA (like Trump), lets give some “ball in the park numbers”…

    Quote: “Our clients largely fall into the top 1%, have a net worth of $5,000,000 or above, and — if working — make over $300,000 per year. My observations on the sources of their wealth and concerns come from my professional and social activities within this group.

    Work by various economists and tax experts make it indisputable that the top 1% controls a widely disproportionate share of the income and wealth in the United States. When does one enter that top 1%? (I’ll use “k” for 1,000 and “M” for 1,000,000 as we usually do when communicating with clients or discussing money; thousands and millions take too much time to say.) Available data isn’t exact, but a family enters the top 1% or so today with somewhere around $300k to $400k in pre-tax annual income and over $1.2M in net worth. Compared to the average American family with a pre-tax income in the mid-$50k range and net worth around $120k, this probably seems like a lot of money. But, there are big differences even within that top 1%, with the wealth distribution highly skewed towards the top 0.1%”.

    link:
    http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/investment_manager.html
    ………….

    Now lets use some maths converting USA dollars to Euros…

    The USA working 1%… make over 300.000 USA Dollars per year.
    That is more than 275 thousand euros per year.

    You want to bet that 1% feels has the rigth to impose his will over the life of “normal” others? Are even step over teh rigths of the “mad” (so to say)?

  • “Liberté, égalité, fraternité” (liberty, equality, fraternity).

    Quote: “The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen of 1789 defined liberty in Article 4 as follows:

    Liberty consists of being able to do anything that does not harm others: thus, the exercise of the natural rights of every man or woman has no bounds other than those that guarantee other members of society the enjoyment of these same rights.”

    Link:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A9,_%C3%A9galit%C3%A9,_fraternit%C3%A9

    ……….

    So despite some MIA posters… with tender ears… and tender eyes, dont like to: SEE/ EAR about:
    SLAVES;
    EVIL;
    VIOLENCE…

    …DO the slaves lack liberty? Are the slaves abused? Can the master kill a slave and say: “slaves die early, was natural, is their genes/ diaseases”?

    If the doctors/ nurses using force and against your will inject Haldol into your body… and that same haldol harms you… and chemically lobotomizes you… are free?

    NOOO!

    You are a slave of the state.
    Meat for cannon.
    Or a pharma/ psychiatrists paying slave for life (AKA: consumer).
    ……….

    By the way Sylvain, i am also from Europe (dont ask where).
    Is there any worthy “resistence” at France?

    And they used to teach at the school the “French revolution” (very violent), changed the world. But today…

  • Well, some Trump voters here at MIA, got: “TRUMPED”?
    (not saying Hillary was better)

    And that DDT decision is funny (to choose that woman), since DDT himself is pround of not using drugs (tobaco, weed). You can read it here:

    https://www.dispensaries.com/blog/donald-trump-never-got-high/

    Quote: “He’s the first president since 1992 who says he never tried marijuana.
    Asked in an interview with Fox News’ Jesse Watters “Have you ever smoked weed?” Trump replied:

    “I have not. I would tell you 100 percent because everyone else seems to admit it. Almost like, it’s almost like, hey, it’s a sign. No. I have never smoked a cigarette either.”
    ……………

    So, the good news are this:
    WAKE UP PEOPLE,
    Trump wont help.

    (that shoul had beeing obvious from the start)

    And forget about republican/ democrat hair pickings. Most of both parts are the same under their pins: Greedy, fake, lowlifes.

    See? DDT takes no drugs, but orderin to inject WORSE DRUGS at OTHER PEOPLE..
    oh yeh, that is fine.

    Vote (again) for Trump, he will make Pharma great (again).

  • FeelinDiscouraged,
    The reasons can be many, but the results are similar. Psychiatrits, nurses, NAMIS, and the whole circus help, yes…

    a) Many of teh diagnosed/ injected… never marry, and even if living together, they avoid to have kids (family, NAMIS, social pressure, lack of $…);
    …………….

    b) They Feel/ think like second grade citizens, not worthy of spending time/ effort/ care with them. Is sad;
    …………….

    c) Yet more sad (but i have seen that), they make excuses. Not honest excuses. Like: “i do that (evil/ non-sense) thing and it does not work, i can always say:

    “i can do no better, i am just a: “_____”.

    Yet… they knew they crossing the line, from the start point.
    Honest people dont do that… injected or not.
    …………….

    d) They have troubles finding/ keeping a job. Part is stigma, i know.

    Yet… a hidden truth… are the priorities.
    Dont know where some learned that… but if asked they say: “I have no power”. Yet fot what they like to do (i wont mention what), they always have time/ money/ and no doubts/ no concerns. What about working hard? Ah… well… excuse number 12578 is… 🙂
    …………….

    e) In the end, all of them agree there are differences. But most (almost all), wont help others. Even those that have the same problem. Or the new generation that will be injected.

    And that… Mr. and Mrs. “Peers”… the above… remains, with or without you.
    Priorities? Keep a job is first, yes?

    “The money or your soul”, like they used to say back in the street robberys in the old days.

    Or was: “The cellphone or your life”?
    Something like that.
    …………….

    f) Yes, love can turn into hate. And wise persons shoud know it from the start.
    Yet, DSM does not like emotions. And emotions are something that even great persons excel. Is not easy. Yet… at more developed countries people are so out of the touch with reality that see verbal/ written abuse/ or even the truth… as worse then death/ being injected.
    Reminds me Homer Simpson.

  • FeelinDiscouraged,
    I did not lost my time at Tracey blog, because:

    a) I have no doubt Tracey does not allow any negative comments at her blog.

    I not going to argue if bipolar or SZ do exist or not (i leave that for those who like it).

    The real persons (diagnosed bipolar), i had met at my life, despite seem (at their good time of the day), normal (or even very inteligent), are not reliable.

    B) I explain: some bipolars (and often), say/ do things that hurt the feelings of their former friends.

    Now… what do some bipolar say? That is “their disease”, they cant control themselves sometimes and they “say things”… that hurt.

    Teh bipolar are (at some point)… aware they hurted other people… but they think they have wide rigths. Their friends should had… “forgived and forgeted”.

    And that “forgived and forgeted”… i DO-NOT-AGREE.

    SZ or/and Bipolar should not be forced to get injected with psychiatric drugs!

    But… both SZ or/and Bipolar… should be fully responsable/ even legally accused for their proved bad actions (if any).
    ……………..

    Due to a) and b) and more…
    i dont have time to deeper try to understand Bipolar people.

    Both SZ and Bipolar people have qualities and faults.
    That is not a big problem.

    The problem is there are so few… willing to make a regular commitment to help others (SZ and Bipolar, and such).
    ……………..

    As for Tracey says/ supports one thing and does the opposite… The actions, the final result prevails. Always.

    So… does the PHARMA/ APA/ NAMI supports useful (to-hire) idiots? Yes. Hire Tracey she is for… 🙂

  • Cat,
    the Natasha Tracy, mencioned…

    1) Her blog, “Bipolar Burble,” has been named a top 10 health blog by Healthista, Health.com, Healthline, and many others (from Amazon).

    2) Her long-running blog “Breaking Bipolar” on HealthyPlace has garnered back-to-back Web Health awards (from Amazon).

    3) Her book at the amazon USA, has for 5 star: 83%. In case you dont know… many goods products dont get that % of 5 stars.
    For example: “Anatomy of a epidemic”, as i write this (at the very same site), has 80% for 5 stars.

    And more? She is “easy to troll”, yes?
    No at this amazon review:
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R28QBC9IGGGLO0/ref=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1539409147

    The review putted Natasha Tracy, and her blog down…

    Yet… look at the 5 dog-alikes comments that folowed of that 1 star review. Harsh comments. People here at MIA are not trained to handle nothing near that.

    Au contraire… we have persons at MIA that say: “tell your name, post publicly your picture, have guts!”

    So, despite here at MIA many persons say should should be “saints”… The reality is ugly out there. Just saying…

    I dont say to poster to have fear and back off. No.
    Just to open the eyes and smell the coffee 🙂

  • Thanks Frank 🙂

    Western Massachusetts Recovery Learning Center, in Northampton, Massachusetts, yes?
    I went into the dicionary… They have a site:
    http://www.westernmassrlc.org

    And at a page there, quote:
    “AOT stands for ‘Assisted Outpatient Treatment… forced outpatient treatment.
    … Currently, 44 states in USA have AOT laws.
    Massachusetts, Connecticut, Maryland, New Mexico, Nevada, Tennessee, do not”.

    So… at the USA, when that glossary was written: 44 states… used the “long arm of the needle” 🙂
    And 6 USA states… did not (so far). Lets see for how long.
    Does not look promising. I dont undestand why some article makers at MIA seem so optimistic.

  • Frank, Sera, Gilbert, anyone ?
    A small question… if you have the time?

    What do you think (after reading the posts of this article)…. that nobody seems to be surprised with the lack of “response” of Peer organizations?

    Quote: “Unfortunately, no peer-run organization has taken on this challenge yet.” – Patrick Hendry. ‘An Open Letter to the Peer Community’ July, 2016.”

    So…. no feedback, of the reasons of the… “silence”?
    ………………..

    There was one post, of Lauren Spiro, that wanted a “peer make the rules, peer has all the control”. Yes, but that SINGLE post seems to see the moment… as seeing a… “business oportunity”. A “variation”, so to say?. As Lauren Spiro was silent about the problems/ issues associated with this “peer business”.

    First to see the problems… THEN to see the solutions, yes?
    ………………..

    Other than that, the USA are known as a country where a lots of statistics are made, yes?

    Where (links) are the best examples of statistics complied by peers themselves?
    So i can see what the users of the peer services…. seems to want?
    Thanks.

  • Frank,
    I read your post. Quote: “People say you need “community supports” before you can shut down institutions as an excuse to build the community mental health gulag. No you don’t. You just need to empty the building, and close it down.”

    re: Well, is possible similar things/ laws/ ideas… done at different countries have very different results.

    For example the very same book published at one country can be a best seller and distributed at the otehr country can have average sells.

    May point… at some countries… there were a serie of laws that wanted to close the asylums, and/or parts of the general hospitals, or some big psychiatric hospitals/ wards. Maybe at the USA also?

    I heard… have yet to verify… that years after that was done… the reality (not the propaganda), was the measured effect (dont know any numbers yet), was worse mental and physical health (or even more deaths, then expected).

    I am not arguing this is good, that was bad, the ideal is that one. No.

    My question: and you know that not all persons that passed by the system kept their mental capacities as well as you… is this:
    do you have a link or something pointing that way that i can look?
    I say this because many familiies already rejected them, dont want them near. Some become homeless… with all that carries… even dying at a colder nigth.

    Not attacking you, just trying to learn.

  • Quote from FeelinDiscouraged: “All these “peer specialists” are supposed to be “meds compliant” right?”

    re: There are peers at many countries, and even within the same country (as the USA),… each state/ province can have variations at basics:
    peers pre-requirements, the code of ethics, daly requirements: “do-this”; “dont-do-that”… or else 🙂

    Many peers life are a open book, the code of ethics if applyed to the health professional would put most out of the business. And a peer not complying to the the code of ethics is reason to get fired (and that is in the signed papers of many peers).

    So, if the supersivors/ bosses of the peer want (if a peer becomes problematic… if he helps the regular users too much, the peer can get fired quick and legally). They (those who have control of the peers, know tto much about them). They demand that information from the start, and all the way after.

    Those who had read “Anatomy of a epidemic”, by Robert Whitaker, know that a page (cant remenber the number), he mentions a peer, that someone acused of beeing NOT-compliant with psychiatric medications. Quick result: the peer was fired (put out of peer job).

    You migth recall Julie posting to apply for jobs/ interviews… as a experienced user. You know the results.

    Psychiatric drug compliant… is among the first questions a user is asked (even at written anonymous queries). Why? Likely because: if the answer is NO (not compliant, not taking the psychiatric drugs… THEY WILL REJECT ALL YOU SAY/ WRITE after.
    ………….

    That said… ex-users are not necessarily more dumb than the psychiatrists 🙂

    Now… there are known posters at this MIA site that say:
    we should: be vocal, be open about our secrets, be honest to reveal all our weak spots…

    And then what? That information wont be used against the users/ peers?
    Nah, never was done in the whole world history (IRONY) 🙂
    ………….

    Now, lets forget for a moment the sheep and dumb sheep… lets look at the wolves for one moment, shall we?

    You know Joseph Bierderman? He is quoted at least at 10 pages at “Anatomy of a epidemic”, by Robert Whitaker. And if you look how Joseph Bierderman behaved at legal courts (there are court transcriptions at the net), you will see the same techniques used by those acused of to be hardcore Mafia hitman.

    That is telling? Should be, for those other other than the useful idiots.

    Now… look at Joseph Bierderman wikipedia page:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Biederman

    Can you even see his birth date? No.
    Does he seem a very important person? No.
    Now go to re-read “Anatomy of a epidemic” again… and take your own conclusions. Joseph Bierderman is no sheep.

    As for Joseph Bierderman and…. lawsuits… courts… lies… and pretending to know nothing… and having no power… =) Look at the internet.

    Well what do you call to that? That he was born yesterday? Nah.

  • oldhead,
    That peer “thing”… is complicated. Unlike the DSM-5, that the APA makes… the DSM-5 (USA version), is very similar of the DSM-5 used at Germany (translated by well know psychiatrists from Germany).

    Now… peers laws/ rules/ code of ethics/ pre-requirements to get selected/ the payments/ the working hours/ the limits of what a peer can do (and is forbiden to do), all that (and more)… varies. Can even vary at the same country, you know that.

    To add to the confusion…
    What is in the papers is not what is done (in practice). By both sides. So there can be a extreme variation.

    My congratulations to those peers that despite to all the pressures done against them… still work: FIRST AND ALWAYS for the users (users with SZ and alikes). Surely… the peers cannot tell their bosses (Pharma/ APA/ psychiatrists/ supervisor(s)/…/ that they (the peers themselves), dont religiouly take their daily Risperidona, yes?
    …………

    Well, that is not my area (the mental tools/ mental skills), or to: name/ translate the name those specific tools/ mind skills/ mind techiques used, i would look like an idiot. I gave those 3 examples to “put the ball in the park”. Those who work in that are will know that was/ is true.

    As of what would be useful in practice for peers to do… that is not allowed at ANY peer organizations (now or soon), i think.

    at Sera article… did you saw the reply (or lack of it), of the “peers organizations” to the events Sera wrote? Seems promising? Or a total failure?
    So, can “peers organizations” improve?
    Keep dreaming (not you oldhead)…
    …………

    Quote from oldhead: “It is not a special skill to give one another emotional support. It’s part of being human, at least in a less alienated society.”

    re: Well, my English is so bad that i may miss your fine points 🙂
    We need find what we have in common, unite at that points, and work/ help/ support those that are willing to make good & lasting changes.

    If that is a skill? A superpower? Ntural… or to be learnead… ai dont know.
    Some people can do that, and are even good at it.
    Some people suck out the energy/ time/ goodwill of the others near. Is that a skill?

    At one point… i confrontated a health profissional saying something of the likes: “you do this (i explained in detail), and you must un-learn to do that, as it drestroys comunication.

    Note: i did not knew (i still dont), it was something “natural” or a “learned skill (by life and/or university degree). Anyway, the result was the same 🙂

  • In a nutshell… “they” (those who promote/ pay/ make the rules/ control/ select/ train/ aprove/ supervise… in the end… can do what they like.

    When a user of mental services applies to be a “pee-r”… there is a “Code of Ethics” to sign. And it may vary… but they require to know you very well, you must tell all the bad things you done at your life.
    Those who have been at the university, even at medical training, know that i going too far. No freshmen/ freshgirl (that i know), has to go under that kind of degradation.
    Not to study for psychiatry;
    Not to have a public job (even a high grade politician).

    Is the kind of thing used with…. drug addicts, or convicted criminals, ex-whores applying to clean houses?
    ………….

    Well, see for your self:

    “Certified Peer Specialists will maintain HIGH STANDARDS of personal conduct in a manner that fosters recovery”.

    Well, Stephen Gilbert has already pointed that: we have to be more holy than the POPE (any psychiatrist, any nurse, any social worker, it seems). Certlainly… the Peers will have to be more “SAINT” than ANY familiar that IS part of the NAMI.
    ……………

    See… they gave you grabbed by the B… you know what 🙂

    Yet, you may think, i myself have noooothing to hide.
    Well… or you are dumb & have not lived…. or you are a wannabe Jesus Christ, yes?

    Is the Code of Ethics “fine stuff à la Joseph McCarthy”?

    You can look for McCarthyism here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
    ……………

    Checklist: signed copy of Code of Ethics Form, with the lived experience and recovery journey to include the date when your recovery began.

    Began, sir!

    You will NEVER be fully 100% certified recovered… aka: “normal”. But… you can fall into “sins” again. And again. After all you have a genetic/ chemical/ dopamine/ serotonine/ broken brain/ imbalance/ a major-serious-grave DISEASEEEEE.

    Is your new “yellow star” at your chest? Dont worry… now you are a “ultra-THX-certified-support-peer-allyed-in-recovery”.

    So, some Code of “Ethics” examples:

    1) “Certified Peer Specialists will actively pursue recovery in their own lives as well as ROLE MODEL recovery for others.”
    ……………

    2A) “Certified Peer Specialists will keep current with emerging knowledge relevant to recovery, and openly share this knowledge with their colleagues and those they serve.”

    2B) “Certified Peer Specialists will keep current with emerging knowledge relevant to recovery, and openly share this knowledge with their colleagues and those they serve.”

    About 2A & 2B) is worthy to note: that health professionals DO NOT WANT… peers to have acess to higher grade training (the same stuff that: psychiatrists/ psychologists/ occupational therapists have).

    Example: they do not want peers to have acess to tools to deal with: cognitive behavior therapy, crisis interventions or emergency psychologic support.

    Wouldnt those 3 tols would be useful to both peers and users?

    Nah. Dont create competition…
    Is not much diferent to forbid the translation of the Bible from the Latin. That gave teh priests… more power to control the sheep.
    ……………
    So, remember the quote from this same MIA article:

    “More detailed knowledge of clinical interventions will be needed so that peer specialists know when and how to support individuals in treatment. For example, Hendry explained, research has shown that when an individual is receiving DBT for a personality disorder, peers must have enough knowledge about the phases of DBT to avoid “getting in the way.” This can occur when the individual’s therapist “withdraws,” leaving the individual “alone” to face challenging situations as a means of developing essential distress tolerance and emotional regulation skills. Peers who recognize the phases of DBT treatment can adapt their interactions with the individual in ways to support the therapeutic goal.”
    Patrick Hendry. July 2016.
    ……………

    Now you get it?

    If you get similar education (they assume peers will (with time), understand/ dominate those tools. And peers will see the “health profissionals have no cloths”. We can do the same stuff they do. Or better. So lets deny peers acess to those tools. Better yet… lets deny them acess to that education/ tools… and when fits our agenda say those “nice things”, about THOSE HARD WORKING LOW-PAID peers. WIN-WIN!

    And there is more evil than that. “They” dont allow you acess to training skills, they dont sahre what they know, but they want (DEMAND) to know “what you know”.

    VERY Ethic??

    Or a LOSE-LOSE-LOSE situation?
    ……………

    3) “Certified Peer Specialists will respect the privacy and confidentiality of those they serve”.
    Seems basic, yes? Huge lie. HUGE.
    ……………

    4) “Certified Peer Specialists will never intimidate, threaten, harass, use undue influence, physical force or verbal abuse, or make un warranted promises of benefits to the individuals they serve”.

    Wait?! Psychiatrits, doctors and nurses… dont do that? Ask Julie.
    ……………

    5) Certified Peer Specialists will never engage in sexual/intimate activities with the consumers they serve.

    God, i have sinned 🙂 Me and 999 hundreds thousands millions humans (give or take).
    ……………

    6) “Certified Peer Specialists will not exchange gifts of significant value with those they serve”.

    Only the money my SZ fellows never payed me back, would allow me to buy me a Samsung SSD.
    I would do it again 🙂
    ……………

    7) “Certified Peer Specialists will not abuse substances under any circumstances”.

    What do you know? At Australia the wine industry began with doctors planting grapes to make wine. And for the Homer Simpsons: to make wine… we must taste it, and be good at it.

    There are (at the UK), 1 studies of alcohol made with male doctors.
    You may bet, they never drunk wine?
    Wrong, sir.
    Look again:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2541157/pdf/bmj00460-0027.pdf

    “Mortality in relation to consumption of alcohol: 13 years, observations on male British doctors”. By: Richard Doll.

    And dont try that at home, kids! Is just for: high Ethics hardcore doctors. At page 3 of the PDF, at the button left… shows that not less than 154 UK doctors admitted having drinked more than 43 (forty three) units of alcohol at 1 single week (ages: 29-42 years old).

    And at the UK, they dont drink that much. Other countries drink more.
    ……………

    Lets replay (is not a typo):

    “Certified Peer Specialists will not abuse SUBSTANCES under any circumstances”.

    Have you seen “Doctor House” (the tv series)? He “avbvbuseedd” pharma pills?1? 🙂
    Only every day of the week.
    ……………

    More could be said? Yes, but is already a lonf post. You got the idea (or you belong to the APA).

    The psychiatry likes using the peers (goats). This seem not logical… until you see the big picture.

    Frank helped in that, saying a part of the “movement” wanted that peer path (the money). Compromisses were made, for Pharma money? Very Ethic 🙂

    Under Influence?

  • Anonymous2016,
    Pieces of the info of what you asked can be found at:
    “Anatomy of an epidemic”, by Robert Whitaker, at page 266 (chapter 13).

    Quote: “… but during the 1970s, the percentage of medical students graduates choosing to into it ] psychiatry [ dropped from 11% to less than 4%. This lack of interest in the field, the New York times reported in a article titled “Psychiatry anxious years”, was seen as a particularly painful indictment”.

    That NYT article was written by: Bryce Nelson (02 November, 1982). It can be found (2 pages) here:
    http://www.nytimes.com/1982/11/02/science/psychiatry-s-anxious-years-decline-allure-career-leads-self-examination.html
    ………..

    Now… the years have passed, and unlike the peers morons (sorry), the APA is not naive, saw it coming… and Whitaker at his book (Anatomy), explains it very well.

    So (at Europe, at this days) a psychiatrist working at the very same organization, working with the same person/problem… a psychiatrist can gets payed by consultation (all of them not famous), more 20-30€, by a single appointment… than a psychologist.
    And then if you look from a famous psychiatrist… then you pay 3 digits (euros), by one single appointment.

    Despite that… Jeffrey A. Lieberman said, the psychiatrists “wanna-be”… are being bullyed. Oh… the poor Lieberman, wants MORE money (and silence the dirty truths) 🙂
    ………..

    So, here is one ideia for those sheep that are not yet lobotomized enough:
    Saw that NYT article, the whole 2 pages?
    Is dated (1982), yes?

    Never mind is not dated enough. Tey were worried? It hurted them?
    There you go! Now have the solution and it is simple: HURT THEM WHERE IT HURTS. Quite simple, really 🙂

  • FeelinDiscouraged,
    I dont pretend to be an expert about slavery. Slavery is a very old practice… and still exists to our days. There are reports of cases… every year.

    So, allow me to try to explain: it depends about the country, the time and the local law. At some cases (in special circunstances), a male or female slave could be set free. In very rare cases, i suppose… and if slavery was the law of the land… it could require a special demand to the king/Emperor.

    Anyway there are cases where slaves were set free and had the legal proof with them. So if they a person that was aa slave and set free (ex-slave)… if that person stayed at that place it would be illegal to make him/her a slave again. Safe in that regard, so to say.

    But i heard that the ex-slave would not find easy to:
    a) find a job;
    b) buy land;
    c) get any respect.

    That because the free folks (the masters), would not trust the ex-slaves.
    And is logic… they made the abuse of slaves… a way of life. Do you think the slaves have short memory? Years, decades of abuses?

    Ah, tiny detail… the freed slaves, sometimes went into the business of “recruiting slaves”. In other words… used their experience “experts by practice… so they say”… to make new slaves, and make profits with it. Maybe very sad… but true. Dirty work.

    Can a person go any lower?

    Yeah, i have read (here at MIA), some folks dont like this kind of comparation… with slaves, or similar comparations… even comparations that are useful… at gaining more understanding of history, the commom problems, the common solutions, the generic needs if any measure of sucess is the goal.

    Pity; Vanity, Show-off: “i am a SZ and proud of it, i tell my name is Homer Simpson; Cherry-picking: “my comment is better than yours”… yada-yada.

    As i see it… is short sigth. Dumb. People that dont understand: 1+1=2 are dumb.

    What does Homer Simpson? He divides. Of 10 (ten) he makes fractions of unit. Splits hairs.
    And at the end of the day… Homer Simpson sees televison until he sleeps. At the sofa. tired and having done noting. All day long.
    ………..

    Anyway… some people (at some countries), menaged to get away from psychiatric medications.
    And some feel “safe”… that will remain like that… since they migth have family support, money, a job, or a good relation with the local psychiatrists.
    But that is the exception.

    At the end of the day, the SZ that care about the others (users in the system, and the thousands that will get in teh system), the ones that are willing to figth to improve things, and break this system… are few and between.

  • The Downfall of Peer Support: MHA & National Certification, by Sera Davidow.

    Is just the old: “Divide & Conquer”… applyed to… the mad idiots?
    In the old days, was: “Divide et impera” (Latin).
    Every good leader/ organizer/ militar had used that…. and worked… every time.
    ……………..

    1) Who had the idea to “use/ exploit”: patients, ex-patients, trusted prisioners, ex-prisioners, trusted slaves, ex-slaves, mercenaries, local guides?

    2) Who selects/ rejects them?

    3) Who gives them the training, and limits their competences?

    4) Who certificates them, or cancels theirs licenses (including automatic expirations/ add the need to do cyclical training… or else…)?

    5) Who decides what are the criteria to qualify for a: “PEE-R”?

    6) Can those “criterias” change with the seasons/ allow the the master subjectivity/ evil finger?

    7) Has any of those “certified trained ex-slaves” achieved anything… other than 30 pieces of silver (Judas’s payment for betraying Jesus). Well… what do you call telling your master… that your “not-certified-peer” is not taking his/ her psychiatric medications?
    30 pieces of silver was dirty cheap (at those days, for a rich person).

    8) Will the masters of the slaves (the white coats that dictate/ force the peer rules), accept anything similar TO those PEER RULES/ Code of Ethics…. at their own jobs/ personal lives?
    HELL… NOOO !!! NEVER.

    9) Is there any future at “certified-official-legal-community-peer-support”?
    Where are these experienced peers? What have they done? What are their names?

    Did they done nothing of useful? Anyting that lasted? Nothing?
    Of course… that was the idea. A few “sheep with guts”… to lead even more dumber blind sheep to the injections/ pills. Meat for canon?

    From the text of Sera Davidow:
    “Teva, Eli Lilly, Jaansen, Lundbeck, Otsuka, and Takeda”.
    That is funny… i sent a poster (artwork), to MIA (that MIA never published), that putted that at the eye level. Not good enough? Yet is what is needed… to wake the sheeps?
    Maybe they like more… Andy Warhol?
    ……………..

    To Sera,
    quote: “Sure, I had to dig around a long time to find an absolutely definitive statement saying that this MHA certification does not involve any sort of actual training from MHA, but that is indeed the fact of the matter.”

    I am very sure of this: when peer training is done… health professionals DONT WANT peers to have ANY access… to any higher grade training. AKA… any training that would allow “peers” to make ANY competition with them (their own jobs).

    This is intuitive enough?
    Is the reality… after the blah, blah (sweet talk for dummies).
    Anybody that has doubts… just try.
    ……………..

    ” Follow-the-money… ”
    Teva
    Eli Lilly
    Jaansen
    Lundbeck
    OtsukaTakeda…

    …that pays the: APA/ NAMIS,
    that promotes the DSM,
    that gives the guns… to all those fake doctors & remaining parasites.

  • Quote of the title of this MIA piece:
    “Descartes was Wrong: a Person is a Person through Others”.

    Descartes? Which one?

    Donald Descartes?
    Hillary Descartes?
    Bill Descartes?
    Ivanka Descartes?
    George W. Descartes?

    Oh! You mean… René Descartes, the mathematician?
    1596-1650… that dude that died more than 367 years ago?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes

    Quote: His best known philosophical statement is:
    “Cogito ergo sum”
    “I think, therefore I am”
    … found in part IV of Discourse on the Method (1637).

    Well… well…
    By the title: “Descartes was Wrong: a Person is a Person through Others”.

    One could be lead to think Descartes wrote (at 1637), something like:
    “I DO OBEY THE-OPINION-MAKERS ORDERS, THEREFORE I AM A PERSON”.

    But people were WAY less stupid at 1637… than we are at 2017, it seems.

    Is Descartes a DSM author?
    Was Descartes a psychiatrist?
    Was Descartes a good organizer?
    Are Descartes mathematics theorems quoted to people diagnosed by the DSM?

    NO. NO. NO. NO.
    …………..

    Is nonsense (old nonsense), a shoot in both feet… to look at Descartes for answers.
    Why does MIA does this? Goes tottaly against of what should be done.

    Pharma/ APA/ NAMI (and wannabe Namis)/ Families/ brainless-Sheep-Comunities… are the massive group forces that are used… against us.

    And the answer at MIA?
    To obey/ submit more to the “assertive treatment power” of the comunityv(OTHERS).

    The loudspeaker: “For your own protection, a injection of Haldol to table 5, please. All is well.”
    …………..

    Descartes will divide us. Keeping us impotent and aimless.
    Health professionals are compact (united). SZ are like: “everyone for himself/ herself”.

    Blind, blind, blind…

    Is by pieces like this article (and associated lack of brains), that Pharma rules, psichiatrits are rich, DSM sells like hotcakes, and we have peer supporters to keep the sheep happy (and divided).

  • oldhead, hi 🙂
    Well i am very sure it will be fun. Calling it:
    a) “fun”;
    b) having very happy moments when “things” move towards helping people with SZ… is fun/ happy moments. And then its time to move forward. More “fun” is near.

    Sure i understand MIA has its priorities (you pointed it to me, i listened, i checked… and was/is true). Thanks.

    Is because of that i wont describe what “fun” is.
    I am no helpless SZ with no goals. Surely i am not romantic, i do like reality 🙂
    And thus want to change things during my lifetime.

    Beacause of that i ask questions, and i search other people with experience and willing to help. We dont have to agree that the Pope is virgin… or that Trump will make America great again.

    Sure… i did read so many books/ articles/ seem so many things at life/ or figthed agains the system like many users here. I dont pretend i did.

    But… i am not advocating this or that. I would like know the rigth people, and find the rigth information. If most of the users at MIA prefer to talk/ chat/ complain… and after all the years MIA exists… the results are (not saying).

    Well is our life, our choices.
    I think you have a hint that a few writers (article writers) here at MIA, are weak (in the sense that all little, or even add to the confusion/ division). I seen that and is their problem and the MIA owners site option.

    Now, i been posting here for a few months. Help/ info/ sharing is not coming.

    Is better to look for sites that want changes/can make cahnges (with SZ or with no SZ).

    You may see me as romantic, but i tryed to help SZ users for many months. And by try/fail i am finding what works.

    So let info/ help come to my way. Is fun (and is a lot of work too).
    Tahnks.

  • Vortex,
    Despite fears of some that your message would put MIA owners/site at risk…
    What you just posted seems to point that in the USA (before TRUMP, knock on wood)
    that is not likely…

    Well… if we dont mess with the RIAA 🙂
    Which migth be the case… if we start to post MP3 audio files of the young Dr. Jeffrey Lieberman, saying things like: Prozac does not cause suicide hehe =)
    ………..

    Anyway, my question:
    Those sites (anarchist or related), worked? In the sense that they made something “they wanted/ figthed”… to happen? Things that lasted/ were worthy?

    If so Vortex, do you think the tactics that worked (anarchist or related) can be used by the victims od DSM?

    If yes… can you point a couple of links of those “effective” sites.

    I dont know about other MIA posters… but i do want to know/see waht worked. And see if i can use it to help the victims of DSM, or to prevent further damages.

    So, Vortex, when you can, do your part. Post the links.
    Then i can have some fun 🙂

  • AA,

    http://www.nasmhpd.org/sites/default/files/Mortality%20and%20Morbidity%20Final%20Report%208.18.08.pdf

    This PDF is from 2006, but discriminates between the % of diseases of persons with mental problems (that affected the USA folks). So… even than 10 years passed, you get a idea of what are the probabilities of the disease… that in the end… will kill you.
    ………………………….

    As for having cancer, is not the end of the world. Sure… it shakes your life, sometimes changes deeply a person priorities.
    Over the years i seen several people had different types of cancer.

    From what i seen: most people consider the cancer:
    a) their enemy;
    b) something to cut out/ put x-ray over it, or use heavy chemoterapy;
    c) sometimes a disease something to hide from others (shame);
    d) sometimes a person with cancer hangs to the hope to live… beyond any good sense.
    ………………………….

    Disclaimer (not for any respect about: doctors/ FDA/ fear of giving medical advice), but because in the end of the day… the choices/ responsabilities are yours.

    That said… cancer is a part of you, growed from your cells. Something caused it. Try to find what. If you feel that cancer part lost all its natural “good humor”, maybe is time to say good bye to them.

    And when you have recovered enough (some terapies, even some vitamins, are not allowed during the convencional medical treatment),… you may want to change your way of: thinking, eating, living… and your goals in life.
    ………………………….

    And in the sligth chance… you are willing to “think out of the box”… i would say, consider:

    1) “to improve your immunity”;
    2) “to reduce foods/ emotions/ things (in general) that weaken your immunity power.

    Number 2) has a lot of info available, i think.
    ………………………….

    As for number 1)… is maybe possible some supplements improve your immunity. To look for info about it… there is a good site (if money is no obstacle… they sell the state of art book about supplements). Part of the info is free… you get a idea of what to expect.

    Link:
    https://examine.com
    ………………………….

    Look at figure 3 (page 5), of this PDF:

    http://www.klaipedosmedus.com/uploads/2/0/5/9/20595306/am_j_clin_nutr-1973-sanchez-1180-4.pdf

    Think!
    Then ask your doctor if there is anything available to improve your immunity?

    You will at the PDF… that certains “so-said-healthy-foods”… weaken your immunity. And fasting for 36 hours improves it. I doubt you will find someting more effective (if you health allows it).

    On the other hand, as you may already know… after beeing treated for cancer… you may have reduced immunity (a little reduced, or a lot reduced… depends), for the rest of your life. Think.

    Again… meee-noooo-doctorrrr, you have ALL the power.
    ………………………….

    (lack of sleep is tricky… the sleep pills are only to be used for 3 weeks (or so). Pills are not the answer for “sleep” (unless you want to suicide). Good luck.)

  • FeelinDiscouraged,
    I think oldhead was “hinting” that those sel-proclaimed/ self-advertised/ center-advertised (as in to: sell something… books, interviews, or vanity or deny their iminent mortality), that are said “cancer-free”…

    Thery arent.

    I suppose each country has its owns statitics about cancer (Sweden cancer treatments are not the same as Nigeria cancer treatments.

    What i think oldhead was pointing:

    a) people who had cancer die earlier than the general population of the same age that never had cancer.

    b) some people have cancer. Then then say:
    1) “I am cancer-free”.
    2) “I am a cancer survivor”. Then they get cancer a second time… (thus a lie, since that possibility was known from the start).

    c) There is the “honeymoon phase” after cancer treatments. At that time may seem… all is well and merry.

    Again, it depends with the: country/ type of cancer/ kind of treatment/ age of the person & his/her basic health prior to cancer/ how wise was the person was during/after the cancer treatment.
    ……………

    As for well know “cancer survivors”, several had/will publish books… and died/ will die a few years after. And the books continued to sell to this day. One example:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anticancer-New-Life-David-Servan-Schreiber/dp/0718156846/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

    Title: “Anticancer: A New Way of Life”
    Author: David Servan-Schreiber, M.D., Ph.D, is a clinical professor of psychiatry at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine.

    See? No shame. No mention the psychiatry dude died of cancer at the Amazon publicity (at the UK or the USA site).
    ……………

    Now, lets look at the wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Servan-Schreiber

    David Servan-Schreiber (April 21, 1961 – July 24, 2011)

    There is no doubt: he died of brain cancer.
    He died with 50 years & 3 months.
    He wrote the book “Anticancer” at 2007. Died at 2011.

    Survivor?!
    No, but he did made money, as a psychiatry and then promoting cures. And “his cure” did not worked for him.

    The shame is this: he was not exposed as the fraud he was and is.

  • Well, Julie…
    to know for sure… sometimes can take decades, and sometimes can only be declared: not classified anymore (available for public/ certain clearances groups/ persons… or partial disclosure),… sometimes after 50 years, or after all people involved had died.

    And you and me will died before another 50 years.

    And during 50 years when something very dirty becomes public, and all the witness had died, all traces covered… who will know if the reality wasnt even darker? Envolving more people, higher ranked people, several governments, several countries, for several years/ decades?
    I think at the USA “national security” umbrella is wide enough to cover all the truths if used early enough.

    I think Nixon also wanted the things linked to watergate to become “secret of the sate”, and forbid any news about that, and get into prison to the funny honest people that did not agreed.

    And again for Nixon… recently Robert Redford (from the movie about the watergate: men of the president), said the dear president DDT (aka trump), was worse than Nixon.

    Where i live, we dont have much to choose. And to look (and find), who payed €€€ to Mrs. X… is a white burocrate crime… that gives the basic human rigth to go to… prison.
    Enemy of the state 🙂

  • Julie,

    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/30/europe/joseph-goebbels-secretary-dies/index.html

    Quote 1: “Brunhilde Pomsel worked as Goebbels’ secretary from 1942 until the end of the war, when she was captured by Soviet forces.”

    Quote 2: “Last year, Pomsel spoke publicly for the first time about her experiences working for the Nazi regime and her three years as Goebbels’ secretary. Her story was turned into the critically acclaimed film, “A German Life.”

    In the film, she expressed no remorse for her actions. “I wouldn’t see myself as being guilty,” she said. “Unless you end up blaming the entire German population for ultimately enabling that government to take control. That was all of us. Including me.”

    (note:
    that news is from this year: January 30, 2017)

    So… she had the time (died at 106 years old). She the highest grade contact with the Nazi murderers of the time… until the very end.
    Clearly… she should had been made a very nice hanged example at Nuremberg.
    Not a nice person… but likely would passed the DSM-5 test and… “considered normal”.

    Hope the Devil had a nice eternity with her.

    Just imagine… how many psychiatrists do the same… profit/ profit/ profit.
    One day they will get caugth. Then… thin excuses. Nothing more.
    Who is more human? The hard evil type of Brunhilde Pomsel?
    Or some dumb SZ that never hurted anybody?
    ———-

    As for people with hopes that the HUMAN RIGTHS people, do help the SZ (and alikes)… that is theory. Seems intuitive, such nice people (the HUMAN RIGTHS people). Whe have similar goals, yes?

    In practice (not mine, as i have yet to go to that path), in practice… i had reports it went the other way… instead of helping us… the HUMAN RIGTHS people, did nothing. Or WORSE. Yes. Worse.

    Anyway… i can back it with the author of that information, if anybody asks. Will have to search a bit, but if it wasnt deleted from the net…

    So, if anybody thinks the folks linked to generical “human rigths” can help… nice. Try yourself. And say how it went. Just dont have high hopes… And is better to do nothing than give them more weapons to hurt us.

  • Well… at the MIA article (the original is paid, 36 $USA), after 10 years the SZ not taking medications… have a full-entire-total-to-show… of 37% of them with a job.
    And does not say what kind of job (low pay jobs? part time jobs? unqualified jobs?)

    Yes they do betther than the lobotomized SZ folks. Those are nice people, fully passive, have acess, are satisfied with their way of life, dont shake the boat, and fully respect all laws.
    Those SZ that take their pills/injections… are the number 16.
    16 of 100.

    Applause!

    “I stand here waiting for
    You to bang the gong
    To crash the critic saying
    Is it right or is it wrong?”
    (music by Lady Gaga)

  • So, force does not work… ?

    https://qz.com/948440/violence-against-journalists-shut-down-el-norte-de-ciudad-juarez-newspaper-in-mexico/

    Title: “ADIÓS; Reporting is so dangerous in Mexico that a 27-year-old newspaper is shutting down”. By Ana Campoy.

    Quote: “Violence against journalists in Mexico put a newspaper in the border city of Juárez out of print.
    The owner of Norte de Ciudad Juárez, a regional daily with circulation numbers of about 30,000, wrote in an April 2 editorial (link in Spanish) that he’s unwilling to sacrifice the lives of any more of his staff, or his own, to keep the paper running. Neither the guarantees, nor the security to do critical journalism that acts as a counterweight exist,” wrote Oscar Cantú.”
    ………….

    Killing a few journalists “worked”. I have mentioned this before, at MIA.

    Mexico is near enough of the USA, folks?
    Juárez (the city of the closed newspaper), is at the USA border.
    Distance is: about 5 Km of Fort Bliss (USA), and distance is: about 3km of Socorro (USA)

    Take note: i am not advocating going that far.
    But… was brute force needed to end Hitler days?

    At those days there were also “european sheep”, like: Neville Chamberlain.
    link:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neville_Chamberlain

    Quote: “Chamberlain, in common with most Allied officials and generals, felt the war could be won relatively quickly by keeping economic pressure on Germany”.

    That idiot (Neville Chamberlain), saw Hitler making his moves… but did not saw the World War II coming. There is the consensus that Neville Chamberlain “talking & hoping for the best” almost made the whole Europe speak german.

    “Talk to Hitler”. “Make settlements with Hitler”… Oh yeah 🙂

    The luck of Europe was Winston Churchill… that saved the day.
    Hated by many… Churchill did…. what he had to do.
    Neville Chamberlain… talked.
    Winston Churchill… showed service.

  • FeelinDiscouraged, Vortex,

    Is good to have a plan. That the plan takes years to follow is okay.
    “Underground” has its place. “Play normal” & go public at times has it place too.

    All that can help. Some people can do the “Plan A”. Some believe more at “Plan B”. Some are lost. And some just follow the trends.

    Anyway, Vortex raised a good point: why are the “sheep so sheepish” (passive/ willing to go to the inevitable slaughterhouse (follow the rules/ laws/ other sheep)?

    The answer to that is likely complicated, and i do not pretend to have that answer… yet.
    …………………

    We… the sheep, are divided. That is a problem… the dificulty to unite us. And the dificulty to keep us united. There are reasons for that. And of course… the Wolves (pharma/ APA/ psychiatrists/ nurses/ and the big group of the remaining parasites… know that simple and important rule: “divide to conquer”.

    Yet… some sheep think that are “very smart”, that they need zero plans, that “talk is the way to go”. Like the music: “Dont worry… be happy”.

    Even when someone has the courage figth the wolves… the sheep dont care, do not help that person.
    Some even say… no leader is needed.
    …………………

    Some even say: the sheep should no target the individual “wolf”.
    No?!
    But the wolves did… and DO… target the sheep!

    Wolves like:
    Emil Kraepelin (1856–1926), Germany.
    Eugen Bleuler (1857–1940), Switzerland.
    Edwin Fuller Torrey (born 1937- ), USA.
    Nancy Coover Andreasen (born 1938- ), USA.
    Allen Frances (born 1942- ), USA.
    Jeffrey Alan Lieberman (born 1948- ), USA.
    Joseph Biederman; USA (hides the the born time, “the angel”. Is the well know bipolar drugs pusher).

    Are those Wolves genious? No!
    Now, what works in real life?
    Who has the power? The wolves do.
    Sorry if this seems hard to read… but many sheep seem: “lobotomized”.
    Those sheep: cannot think, cannot make good decisions, cannot see their own mistakes.
    Seems harsh? Sorry.
    Who cares?

    Is the R-E-A-L-I-T-Y, Mr. Sheep & Mrs Sheep.

    Why we are so many… and yet… we the sheep have done so little?
    …………………

    Some sheep are so stupid that say: “force does not solve anything”.

    Well… wolves say: “force has solved more problems during history than anything else”.

    “Force” is a dirty word? “Power” is a dirty word? “Action” is a dirty word?

    Some sheep like those nice words:
    a) “HOPE”.
    b) “PITY”.
    c) “COMPLAIN”.
    d) “ACCEPT”.
    e) “FORGET”.
    f) “GIVE UP.
    g) “happy pills/ weed/ beer/ facebook/ chat/ LCD tv screens/ the Simpsons/ Trump tweets”.
    …………………

    All persons can help. Just dont be sheep and dont expect it will be easy.

  • Torture, yes. Why not?
    Hurted? Checks.
    ………………….

    Quote from the article:
    “and a reminder that psychiatry had the power to do much worse than they did.”

    re: Yes, i was told the same (in other words). They had no problem to say that: “if they wanted to… they could do this and that (frankly hugely degrading at all parts of the world)”. Shure… they will never say that kind of thing to a journalist.
    ………………….

    1) Torture can lead to suicide. Checks (at psychiatric hospitals).
    2) Some groups are the “target” of the torture, others (“the professionals of torture” profit. Checks.
    3) Trougth the times torture was justified with: GOD/ state/ The king/ community… best interests. Checks.
    4) The Torquemadas (psychiatrists/nurses), …. that apply the tortures/ punishments… say was not their faults, they get no pleasure with that… those were the orders (from above). Checks.
    5) Torture changes perceptions… forever. People that suffered the “cocacola torture”, cannot… for the rest of their life… return to: “think like before”.
    There is “before”… and there is: “after”.
    ………………….

    Now… and this is not specific of Ronda Richardson (likely applies most of the regular article makers here at MIA)… where are the “counter-measures”?

    This site (MIA), could be re-labed like this: “all-dressed-up-and-nowhere-to-go” (ADUNTG).
    ………………….

    So, the sheep are tortured/ handicaped/ killed?

    Says A: the sheep should talk.
    Says B: if the sheep had guts/courage… the sheep talks.
    Says C: i am a sheep and i am so happy i have talked.

    Oui?
    So Proud Sheep, may you answer a question?

    When will be the year that all that “talking” will finally produce results?

    Will be the year 2018?
    Will be the year 2050?
    Will be the year 3017?

    Behehe 🙂
    (european sheep talking)

  • Philip Hickey, hi 🙂

    English is not my language, lets see if i can explain explain this…
    If “compelling” is understanded as: “to exert a strong, irresistible force…” My opinion is: no is not, other will do better.

    I did read the 12 pages PDF of Mark Bertram & Sarah McDonald.
    Is nice that the authors made the effort to create a visual image of a important stand of the article. And they hired a designer that used colored trees (instead of the more common black and white linear diagrams).

    The idea of using 2 types of trees is good (had potencial, if well used). Is not a new idea to use trees to explain a idea (has been used for many years).

    But the execution of both drawings could be much better.
    At the PDF says: “Graphic design (Trees) Sophie Walker”. The trees are so amateur-like that i thougth the authors did the trees themselves…
    ……………

    Lets see:
    The tree of the “invalidanting conditions” is at page 9 of the PDF.
    The tree of the “validanting conditions” is at page 10 of the PDF.

    1) The contrast is between the fonts of the words (and the background) is weak. That can be measured (but is very obvious). Amateur mistake.

    2) The font used does legibility no favours. The fonts of the main article is fine (despite small, but that is normal at scientific articles). But at the 2 drawings of the trees have weak fonts, small fonts, bad contrast front vs background, and uses many different directions of text (with no need, i may add… as the text even makes curves!).

    3) The choice of colours of the pictures of the trees (both background & text), reminds vintage pictures, with fading colours. Silly.

    4) The space used by the pic is not fully used for the best legibilty. Is not optimized,

    As a result… at a normal monitor, seeing the pdf to fit the width. Is very hard to read the words of the trees, due to: 1)2)3)4).

    If the PDF is zoomed to 300%, the tiny words can be read. But it should not been needed. Even then (at 300%… reminds me the words/letters the facebook requires to type before a person can seen the page (are difficult to read).

    And no, i am not promoting myself. I dont do trees 🙂
    ……………

    As for the PDF of Mark Bertram & Sarah McDonald… i wish they had more statistics.

    And Philip Hickey… if you want to see what a good artwork is… try this video of Hans Rosling:
    Title: “Hans Rosling’s 200 Countries, 200 Years, 4 Minutes – The Joy of Stats – BBC Four”. duration: 4 minutes and 47 seconds.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo
    ……………

    The person that done the trees could use Hans Rosling ideas… of using volumes/ position, related to the importance of the “words”.

    Example: the tree of the “validanting conditions”, has a regular size apple called: “earning money” (rigth side, down). Yet… at the top rigth there is apple… the biggest one… with no text associated. Or is “taking a leap” associated… and bad posicioned?

    Anyway what is more important? “Taking a leap”? Or “earning money”/ “having a job”?

    We need jobs! We need oportunity to work! We need independance!
    Surely much more than… “to leap”… ?

    Thanks for reading.

  • Philip Hickey,
    i liked your considerations of that article from: Mark Bertram & Sarah McDonald. Is the basic-basic, evident for the “victims” (that do not want to be victims).

    Despite the damages being obvious (for the victims),… the whole psychiatric industry (and the rest of the parasites), is based on those feet of clay.

    Yes, is worth reading the PDF.

    The trees of the PDF (that are copied at this blog), are substandard, child-like. My advise to Bertram & McDonald is ask to do that “tree diagram”, to someone who is worth his/her salt.

    The “artwork” at MIA… is also low grade (sorry for those who took the time/ effort to do it, but is my opinon).
    No need to descrive why is weak art… you get it, or you dont.

  • Emily Cutler, wellcome.

    Instead of Queen Esther… i prefer Jael (the Jew woman from the Bible).
    From the Old Testament (Bible):

    Judges 4:21

    “But Jael, Heber’s wife, picked up a tent peg and a hammer and went quietly to him while he lay fast asleep, exhausted. She drove the peg through his temple into the ground, and he died.”

    The “PEG” is a wooden nail.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jael

    Quote: “Biblical commentaries have viewed Jael as either a heroine or someone much less so. Newsom and Ringe consider her a survivor caught up in her husband’s politics.”
    ……………..

    Jael. The Jew Woman & Survivor & Hero & Example.
    Had the courage that lacks at many men.

    For those of tender ears (and blind eyes), here is a euphemism:

    “Jael administered a anti-psychotic “peg” of long duration. It did not hurt, was ethical.
    The administration site of the peg: the broken brain, as needed.
    The meta-analyse of 30 studies says: “the anti-psychotic peg” will not affect the cognitive status”.
    ……………..

    And now that we had a humorist moment… Emily Cutler is there a link to your “survivor story”? Sure enough is what we would like to read?

    If you want, of course.

  • quote from oldhead: “give it a month or two and some of these questions might be easier to answer”

    re: Ok, i can wait.
    ………….

    quote from truth: “Someone with a plan, an actual plan?”

    re: I dont know what will happen in 1-2 months, from oldhead… hope a good start of something powerful.

    As for “plans”… before plans there 1 tiny thing:
    The “evaluation of the situation”.

    If that evaluation part in not done (or is full of holes),… all future plans will fail. As was in the past and will be in the future.

    We have the current situation… for “reasons”. And this is going on… for decades!
    Talk… talk… chat… chat… write… write… zero effects.

    Meanwhile… Pharma, Psychiatry, NAMI… are where they want to be.
    And they have many “happy sheep” 🙂
    ………….

    I live at Europe, but i can help a bit, and want to learn what i can.
    At the USA there are some factors… at other countries… that can vary.
    Still, some things likely are common. And hope we can help each other, despite speaking different languages (and that we agree… or not… that the POPE is virgin 🙂

  • Oldhead,
    I did not had time to read your previous posts here at MIA (forgive me if you already posted a lot about this).
    ………………..

    quote: “As a movement we need to target the system, not individuals, unless there is particular strategic value in doing so”.

    re: The system has…. VERY high numbers/ parts.
    Spreads VERY wide (up and down).
    And is VERYYY powerful.

    The movement at this time, is:
    hugely divided;
    confused (to use a euphemism);
    lacking important skills;
    lacking resources.

    I would say the movement has “homework” to do.
    I am not trying to be negative. And i am not a depressive person.
    Just saying… the way has been done so far… did not work, and wont work.
    ………………..

    To say something positive/ construtive: we need help from someone with “real world” experience, that has proved himself/ herself/ or as a organization… worthy in the past (done things).

    A lot of thing that i read at MIA will never work.

    More: some things are plain DUMB (i wont quote who said… this or that… as in theory we are in the same side), but in a real job if i asked a plan to “get from A to B”… and i got some sugestions like i have seen here at MIA… i would them out of the job in a minute.

    We dont need big brains. We need people with: good sense/ experience/ courage/ know-how. And i know the SZ crowd lack it (most of them, do).

    I am open to sugestions…

  • Niall McLaren,
    My two cents: regarding why Nazi troops were so effective… well…
    Nazi trops were very effective agoints SOME European countries… like France.

    I read (long ago), that the strategy of the French was dumb. Hitler and their general were smarter.
    I also remember… (from a book that i have), that the French soldiers defending the “Maginot Line” or similar crucial points), were allowed to have a HUGE amount of red wine daily.

    You migth think… “were the Frech so dumb?”. They were.
    France resisted how long? Four WHOLE days?

    Compare that with the time some European gettos of Jews resisted the Nazis. Teh jews… surrounded by all sides, with no food/water… and very few weapons/munitions? WEEKS (AT TIMES), until starving and the last man, woman and kid.

    Other European countries fougth Hitler harder.
    Anyway… is known French have a unique way of “resisting”… they bend 🙂
    ……………

    Anyway, there is been said that the SS (elite nazi troops), used steroids (and more), during missions so they can be more agressive, and have less fear, or maore energy.

    At more recent times… it was on the news that ISIS terrorists used a mix of cheap drugs… that allowed better focus, less fear, and less sense of pain.

    Herbs, potions and mixes to acheieve that have thousands of years of use, likely, (between soldiers).
    ……………
    Even recently i read a doctor said: Ritalin only had advantages. No risks proven.
    A doctor! He is documented. I dont think so…
    ……………

    Now… at the USA, the army uses what for their jet figthers? Anfetamines?
    Anfetamines were used before at the USA air force. And with advantange. I do not know the name of the pills they use at 2017….i not water + lemon (or carrots to see at nigth), for shure.

    A number of nazis scientists/ nazi operationals were recruited by the USA (after the WW2). For the airoplane industry/ space industry. And for the CIA… planning/ surveilance/ interrogation/ torture stuff.

    And DDT (Trump) thinks a “litle torture” is no problem.
    And a few USA citizens complain. Other say: if for the common good.

    (AntiP… from the 1% that had SZ… and the got away of psychiatrists… so far)

  • Bonnie Burstow,
    I see you reply at the articles that you post. I like that 🙂
    At your profile: “She writes about language, institutional ruling, resistance”.

    I liked that part about “language / institutions (can extend to the psychiatric daily speech i think)/ and resistance”.

    As for: “social change”… i liked it less, as is also used at the MIA forums, and nothing changes for the better there. Social change… is too vague, not specific enough. No goals, no timeline.
    …………

    I have seen the name associated around “real things”, and “real projects”, trying to make a diffference, But so so i have not had the time to read the links. But i will do it, during 2017. So Bonnie, you are making a book? Nice. If is a good one, i will buy it.

    Now, about your article, this called my attention, quote:

    “in “polite society,” cursing is largely verboten. Let me suggest, however, that if done in the correct spirit and adroitly, cursing can be a highly useful type of anti-oppression work. How so? It can at once shed light on oppression, express the outrage warranted, and motivate action. On top of which, it can be personally liberating.”

    re: Well, liberating as in: “Feel Good” ?

    Ah, well,… it would be nice, but in some parts of the world… saying the wrong words loudly (or even using the normal volume of speech), to a psychiatrist… can get the injectable loaded with TWICE THE DOSE… and injected, rigth after.
    I seen that, so i am in no hurry to try.
    Was a single phrase… that mutiplicated by 2 his injectabel dose. Result? A walking-zombie.
    Too risky.
    …………….

    As for the cursing, or using slang… (more like single words/ short phrases).
    I have seen that is of the few things that puts psychiatrits (and medical professionals), out of their confort zone. They dont like it.

    Even just words/ short phrases… no risk so to say…. Yet that has more effect that: using lots of truth and months of suffering. After telling them and asking them if they already knew itr all, why is that they done nothing? They quickly make silly excuses/ calim impotence/ changes subjects.

    Now… if you get personal or ifyou use slang… it gets funny 🙂
    They get red! And all of the sudden seem not in control anymore. Their voices shakes… and/or they get angry.
    Just low-class humans… pretending to be GODS. Tigers of paper.
    …………….

    As for language… Bonnie Burstow, that is important.
    Language is a weapon that is used against us… wayyyy to much used.

    Maybe language can be part of a solution. I have hope that you have done progress at that “language front”. Because WE needed it: the users, the wanna-be ex-users; and the ex-users (like me).

    Prescribe! 🙂

  • FeelinDiscouraged,
    Is interesting you said that. Seems Frances was very-very-sure that Trump is as healthy as GOD. And most of the oposition argues: No! Trump is crazy/ narcisistic/ anti-social, etc.

    So, lets follow your path FeelinDiscouraged. Lets admit Trump had XYZ, and XYZ is at the DSM-5. And the easy/ quick/ effective treatment of XYZ is haldol (by injection, once a month).

    Wont that solve the issues, since PHARMA, and psychiatrits have their psychiatric drugs at so high count? Seems they thing their psychiatric drugs prices need to be raised (oh, they are so good drugs)!

    Will Haldol (or Prozac, name your poison) “cure” Trump symptoms. APA says and speads around the world this: PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS are A FUNDAMENTAL PART of treatment of mental illnesses.

    So, Why do not take the midle road?
    Lets give Trump the DSM-5 aproved for his “problem”. And the DSM-5 is the autority.

    but on the other hand, Trump recently said: that this whole health issue is way complex.

    I think he was not saying the APA and the DSM-5 are wrong… and the psychiatric drugs dont work…

    Nah, he was talking to the average Jane & Joe. To save money at health, so ther is more money to his friends.

    Kings (like Trump), are like the Queen Victoria… they dont even go the bathroom. No sir.
    At the UK, they knew that.

  • Tina,
    Thanks for your reply. I did some search for info before i asked you (my home homework, so to say). At the psychiatric hospital i know, these “rigths & duties” are written (at big fonts), at the walls. But are not real, they do not fit the situations (are lies).

    I digged a bit deeper (looked at the listed law at that publicty).

    And it gets very complicated. At the publicity it says one (1) law and the law number/time.

    Yet… at a version used by the NURSE it lists: FIVE (5) laws/regulations, from several different national organizations. Clearly… is not to be understood, is deliberatly confusing.
    ……………….

    And one aspect that does not help… if i want to ask a laywer to explaiin that… they ask 100 euros/hour (about 105 US dollars/hour). I cant pay that (that lawyer isnt even a expert at that, he never investigated that).

    At my country… the people that got forced into psychiatric hospitals, menage to get out, and complained (at court), and also went public (as in public newspapers), are almost ZERO.
    And worse the doctors destroy them left and rigth (with ease).
    ……………….

    Tina, i thank you for your will help. I will not contact you at this moment (likely will in a few months), since i want to have copies at the laws, read them and see where there are legal holes and lies. And then i post here at MIA that (under AntiP), that i am doing that, so you can see is me.
    At the time i am too busy to do that, just wanted to know you would help, Tina.
    At the moment i dont know to ask the rigth questions. And i value your time, and do not want to waste it.
    Thanks.

  • FeelinDiscouraged,
    Yes, at the movie “Patriot”, the English general complained that: “was not fair” to aim their rifles first at the officers (those that gave the orders), to shoot them them.

    If i recall correctly the general argued: “If the milicia shoots the english officers, who will guide the english soldiers?”.

    life is… NOT FAIR 🙂
    And the English lost that war. Which was fair.

  • Frank,
    I am new here, have other things to do, so havent been able to read at MIA all i wanted (and maybe that is not possible, as time goes… new things come everyday… that need solution.

    … just wanted to remind that:
    a) that i am new at MIA;
    b) I am from Europe;
    c) i own just 3 good books about SZ (all from Robert Whitaker): 1) Anatomy; 2) MIA; 3) Influence. And am lacking time to read all i like.
    d) I lack information, and historical data (i know that).

    But to solve a problem, is useful to know the problem.
    And at participants post at the blogs/ news/ forums at MIA… i see some “issues” daily.
    At this point i do not want to write about it (dont want to get banned).

    I am new here. Here i learn things. I already get little cooperation (…about “things”…), as thing are. No need to make it worse for myself.

    Whitaker told us what Pharma/APA/NAMI did (the general lines). For details we need to read at other places. Now… some thing rely heavily on money. We dont have $$$, it wont work.

    One ACTUAL problem is this: if we dont learn from the errors of the past… result will be:… nothing done that will last. And a lot of time/ energy/hope wasted.
    ……………….

    And Frank and oldhead… you 2 know a lot more than i do. And dont forget english is not my native language (i am aware any kid from the USA will write better than me).

  • Judi,
    Quote: “The questions are: is there an anti-psych movement?
    If so where is it?
    Who are its leaders?
    And what is it actively doing to stop the fraud and carnage?”

    re: Those are very good and important questions.
    Oldhead other day said at MIA (someting like this): that the history of anti-psychiatry movement was being so distorted… that this day is not possible to find it anymore (the true story).

    Seems obvious that PHARMA/ APA…both have gained power since 1970.
    Whitaker explained that part at his books… how it was done. With a plan, that took decades, and much $$$, paying psychiatrists, NAMI, articles, dinners, speaches…

    That part is know, and the profits of Pharma can be found. Very profitable.

    Now the “dark side” (not that we are evil, but people hate/fear us, the ones with a DSM-diagnosis).

    I dont pretend to know the history of anti-psychiatry movement, but will point a few guesses:

    a) Some leaders have died (and some disd died early);

    b) some got old (or got discredited);

    c) some give up (got tired of getting: no results/ no support/ the heavy burden);

    d) some got bougth/ payed for their silence;

    e) some found a way to get a little money & status (but helping very few people),… kinda payed fakes (or cases or vanity/ dont see their own incompetence/ lack of honesty).

    f) Some leaders are so naif/ passive/ and dumb that qualify for: USEFUL IDIOTS.

    g) the anti-psychiatry movement got infiltrated (that weakeaned it from the inside).

    h) the anti-psychiatry movement lacked important things: “know-how”, “strategy”, and was too soft to make changes/adapt and never went “all the way”.
    …………………..

    So, PHARMA/ APA, see a)b)c)d)e)f)g)h)… and they laugh the whole way to the bank.

    The above is not facts… just a tentative explanation. The results are known.
    Those who know better (oldhead, or others)… can post what failed (and when). Because failed… it did.

  • I agree with oldhead.
    To the readers of MIA:

    To take (calculated) risks… will be needed.
    There will be problems.
    There will be losses and regrets.
    A few will show the way… hoping at some point… others will need to do their part… taking the candle a litle further.

    Now as for naif ideas… of protests… with no plan…
    Chat about everything and then forget…
    Ask for pity…
    And speaking loudly from the sofa… and have have no useful contribution to give,,,
    Or hope for the best, and faith in GOD… and have no “plan B”…

    Well if so… 🙂
    Stay at the sofa, see TV. “The Simpsons”. Or talk about Trump.

  • kindredspirit,

    Quote: “I do think that if the gay and jewish and mexican and muslim and indiginous communities stood together with the anti-p crowd, they could elevate our voices in the same way they ask allies to elevate theirs.”

    re: I have yet to see what is been by ex-users (at other countries than my own). At my country, nothing that i am aware made roots. Left no trace. The “peer illusion” or/and “self-help groups”, as i see it (at may country), fully lack energy/ drive/ vision. Seems to have stop in time and in reality are just: “all show, no play”.

    As for ex-users… they must exist, but health professionals (here), deny us any contacts among us. Keep us divided and hopless (and not informed, of course).

    As for “wanna be” ex-users. As i see it, most lack what it takes: a deep will to figth back and re-gain power.

    So, i am learning her at MIA what is necessary…
    …………..

    As for get allies (gay, Jewish, or others),… is very problematic. As (at least SZ), behave… how to say it… “weird” sometimes… And half of them smoke for a living.

    I think people under psychiatric medication… think second rate thougts, have less drive (or something like that).

    I dont think is a acident that we need Robert Whitaker. The descrives the problems of Sz better than any SZ i know. And i dont see that changing any time soon…

  • kindredspirit,
    I believe you said something important here:
    Quote: “When thousands show up for psych rights, I’ll be very impressed.”

    Re: But… that wont be any time soon. The homosexuals menanged to to get out of the DSM? Yes.
    But they did not stopped them, they did not lost strengh under the AIDS crises
    They figthed back, they are pro-active.

    I am not very familiar with the tactics the homosexual comunity used against the APA (or the circunstances, hey i live at Europe). Yet their convictions, assertive ways and tactics… WORKED.
    And they had courage, organization, were not naif and lost their fears.

    Now… those that are “chemically lobotomized”… for years… those who are comfortable with a pay check… wont figth back against the APA and the psychiatricts.

    The reasons why SZ (for example) are so divided and lacking common sense… i am not sure. Robert Whitaker did a great job at explaining the great picture… but missed that details (how PHARMA and APA defeated us).

    Yes, i thing i read this week at MIA “un-stopable”…. nah. The worse is yet to come. Hope i am wrong.

  • Matt Stevenson,
    As you saw recently, a female user posted under a name that was not her own. And was a great article. She told us her story and she had the guts (courage).

    You migth be aware (Robert Whitaker likely is, since he is a journalist), that some journalists that cover themes envolving big money, big power… die doing their duties.

    Not all journalists, just some of those who have guts (courage), and cant get bougth, or arrived too near profitables lies. And did not got enough brains (or technology), to protect them selves enough.
    ……………………..
    1)
    https://cpj.org/killed/2016

    Quote: “48 Journalists Killed in 2016/ Motive Confirmed”.

    Beats Covered by Victims:
    75% War
    38% Politics
    19% Corruption
    17% Human Rights
    17% Crime
    13% Culture
    4% Business
    4% Sports
    ……………………..

    2)
    So, maybe: APA, DSM, PHARMA, goverments… are envolved with:
    $$$
    Politics
    Corruption
    Human Rights
    Crime (drugs, legal or not so legal)?
    ……………………..

    3)
    You may have heard that at Africa or Brasil, activists for animals; or activists for endangered native minorities (and their lands), … those activist get in trouble, may disapear for ever… or when they appear…they are in more pieces than one.
    ……………………..

    3A)
    Whistleblowers?

    link:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower

    Quote: “A whistleblower (also known as a whistle-blower or whistle blower)[1] is a person who exposes any kind of information or activity that is deemed illegal, unethical, or not correct within an organization that is either private or public.[2] The information of alleged wrongdoing can be classified in many ways: violation of company policy/rules, law, regulation, or threat to public interest/national security, as well as fraud, and corruption.”

    A current case of whistleblower is: Edward Snowden. Had he not been gutless, nobody would know about some nice things of some pretty organizations and their programs. So Snowden had to run away the the land of the free.

    Or the poor Edward would be in jail (or dead), today. Thanks Snowden.
    ……………………..

    3B)
    Another case? Jeffrey S. Wigand.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Wigand

    Quote: “Wigand became nationally known as a whistleblower on February 4, 1996, when he appeared on the CBS news program 60 Minutes and stated that Brown & Williamson had intentionally manipulated its tobacco blend with chemicals such as ammonia to increase the effect of nicotine in cigarette smoke.[2] Wigand claimed that he was subsequently harassed and received anonymous death threats.”

    Does the Big Tobaco has someting in common with Big Pharma? Dont both play very dirty?
    ……………………..

    3C)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Throat_%28Watergate%29

    Deep Throat (Watergate). Well case know across the word. Another gutless? Or wise?
    Some people say a case like Watergate wont be possible anymore.

    Reason: the system is not too good at data mining. And these is no privacy/ rigths anymore.
    ……………………..

    That is why i asked Tina, hope she can help to inform us, about the holes in that laws.

  • I am not familiar with the: “SMILES Study, Depression and Nutrition”.
    I looked at the food breaking (i am at Europe). That is not a Mediterranean Diet.
    You can call that a: “diet aproach based at…”, or a “variation of…”
    But is not a Mediterranean Diet. Is a variation of a America diet. But i will not argue about that, since the Mediterranean Diets of 1960 are gone. Is pointeless.

    Like has already been said, depression has many causes. And there is the natural (traditional) path of self-healing depression (in due time). And there is the pills-for-depression-for-life path.

    People familiar with diets… know that is hard to change food/dring habits.
    So, to change many things at a diet, will work? Will last.
    ………………

    Fish. At the so-called “Mediterranean” of the “SMILES Study”, they ate fish:
    a) “(at least 2 per week)”;
    b) “whole grains (5–8 servings per day)”;

    And seems Japan one of the countries that has the lowest rates of depression of the world, used to be among the top fish eaters. There are grahics about that.
    Cereals and their produtcs on the other hand…
    ………………

    Marine Omega 3 (daily, at a high supplement dose). Seems to help people with SZ and depression.
    ………………

    And Psychiatrists usually are very ignorant about foods/ supplments. Hospital foods/drinks suck… big time.

  • Tina Minkowitz,

    That reminds me 3 issues:

    A) if we want to be effective… is wise to post it at a public forum?
    The guidelines of MIA say:::::::::::::::::::

    B) I seem to recall you have legal traing (laws)? Well that is much needed. When people get locked at psychiatric hospitals, at all floors there are their “rigths & duties”.
    Which are lies. Tina, if you have the time. We need guidance on that front. We… from all countries. I am at Europe, and i am a ex-user of forced psychiatric drugs.

    C) Is wise to go to batles that can be won. In other words: choose where to figth, when to figth, for what. And that brings us back to: A) If you make publicity of you are going to do… “D day” had sucess because was a careful secret, and had lots of disinformation too.

    Naif people don win. Not calling you naif, but many write/chat a lot at MIA… and are clueless about the basics.

    That said… i am learing the basics myself. I would apreciate your input about “rigths & duties of people locked at mental hospitals”.
    Thanks.

  • Twilah Hiari,
    You done the rigth thing. And you done it quickly.
    That speaks volumes about your: inteligence, values, honesty and determination.
    You are needed.

    Some health professionals see daily similar things. Yet that does not bothers them. Unless they their favorite football team loses. Oh day to forget.
    Some health professionals take YEARS/ DECADES to reckon… a little, tiny error.

  • Zippy321,
    I am not going to argue with you. No. It would be lost time.
    But i apreciate you had time to reply.

    I hope (at some time in the future), the readers of MIA dont take so much time to call: “this duck is a duck”.
    ……………

    Anyway Zippy321, read: “Anatomy of a Illnesss” by Robert Whitaker. He is only a journalist, (not a doctor, sorry).

    Of course… “Whitaker is a menace to society” (as said by a “real doctor”: Lieberman) 🙂

  • Zippy321,
    So… you were never DSM diagnosed. That explains all.

    Zippy321 you are kinda of a… “Expert of Swimming Movies”… that never touched the water.

    So many things that we (the ex-users), need to do… and some Trump fans need attention. Because “they know” better than the ex-users. NOT.

  • Oldhead,
    Thanks for the comment,i will see wha ti can do.

    About aiming better/ more focused goals for the forum… do you feel that what is need is already posted/ known?
    Could you make a thread at the MIA forum with the 10 more important goals.

    … you know, even when Whitakers posts a article, often it get hijacked.
    At this same article, seems the target is too wide.

    If you could do that thread, good. If not say so, and in a few months i can try.

    I do plan to make a thread of littel thing s that can/ should be impreved at the forum (but it will need to be long, but wont touch MIA priorities).
    Thanks.

  • Zippy321,
    1) Have you had a DSM diagnosis?
    2) Had you been treated against your will?
    3) Have you been abused by health professionals?
    4) Have you seen that after a DSM diagnosis (and get medicated), some people will NEVER get back to work?

    I think you are one of the diagnosed (if you are… you are a lost case).
    The content of your posts turns the truth… upside down.

    Theories… Zippy321, theories.

  • Link:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

    Quote:

    “Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD), also known as dissocial personality disorder (DPD) and sociopathy, is a personality disorder, characterized by a pervasive pattern of disregard for, or violation of, the rights of others. An impoverished moral sense or conscience is often apparent, as well as a history of crime, legal problems, or impulsive and aggressive behavior.
    Antisocial personality disorder is the name of the disorder as defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).”
    ……….

    Well, well… what do we know?
    The Famous Eminent Doctor Psychiatrist Allen Frances… forgot that tiny little bit. That the Allen Frances own child (the DSM), at Allen Frances own blog, he wrote at Jan 31, 2017:

    “Trump Isn’t Crazy. I wrote the DSM criteria and he doesn’t meet them”.

    link:
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/saving-normal/201701/trump-isnt-crazy
    ……….

    And now, quote from the article at top:
    “He may be a world-class narcissist, but this doesn’t make him mentally ill, because he does not suffer from the distress and impairment required to diagnose mental disorder.”

    So… for Frances Trump is the example of SANITY, does not meet ANY criteria for mental illness, because Trump “does not stresses over little things”. And since Trump is hugely rich… OF COURSE… Trump is not impaired.

    On the contrary 🙂 He is very healthy (of body… written by Trump Personal doctor, and now mentally healthy (diagnosed from Frances… from a distance 🙂

  • Hey, where has the link gone?

    The link is this:
    https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/01/trump-blow-up-fda/

    Title: Trump Wants to Blow up the FDA
    February 13, 2017

    So, nobody is concerned at MIA?
    Nobody takes vitamins/ minerals/ supplements here?

    Is the long harm of the FDA not long enough?
    Arent the FDA folks blind enough?
    Doesnt the FDA hunts the natural foods/ supplents hard enough?
    I tell you, it reaches Europe. When you seen vitamin C at 200mg (0,2g) at maximum for pill, or available with prescription only… you will began to worry?

  • humanbeing,
    Well, lets see:

    Is mental health a big business (for Pharma, psychiatrits, psychologists, nurses, etc)?
    Pharma making drugs is a big business?
    APA profits $$$$$$ & gets power from the DSM-I; DSM-II; DSM-III; DSM-IV; DSM-5?
    So money is envolved?
    Democrats are politicians?
    Republicans are politicians?
    Politics and prostituiion envolve money?
    Doctors (in general), are not neutral?
    The world is not fair and is a violent place?
    What is new?

    THE LARGER PICTURE?
    Well, the larger picture is complicated, and i dont pretend to know the “larger picture”.
    And i find wise “know my facts, before i…” like Mark Twain said.

    So, going to the “larger picture” will take this thread somewhere?
    Or going for the larger picture, will:

    a) divide us further;

    b) create more tabus: “FROM THIS MOMENT ON, UNTIL OUR BELOVED PRESIDENT ENDS ITS MANDATE/ QUITS/ BE IMPEACHED, NOBODY HAS THE RIGTH TO DSM-DIAGNOSE HIM/ HIS POLITICS/ HIS ACTS/ HIS LAWS (like the APA wants).

    c) NO AUTHOR AT MIA CAN BE: PRO-REPUBLICAN, or PRO-DEMOCRAT.

    d) We will make a petition for big pharma start to make new psychiatric drugs for Republicans (that will have Trump image at the label); and psychiatric drugs for the Democrats (that will have Hillary image at the label). Both drugs will have a text disclaimer that will potenciate the “placebo effect”, for each party.

    e) Going to the “larger picture” takes the participants off-topic. Like Jerry and Marie wanted, and how they say? “line, sink,… yummy”.

    f) Marketing, capitalism… way off-topic. I am glad the Robert Whitaker books exist. They show the picture well enough. Some could make a wider picture? At the risk losing the picture, yes.

    h) We, the SZ, dont care is HALDOL is democrat or is Republican Haldol. It hurts us just the same. Haldol was used at the USRR too. Is used in Russia.
    ………………….

    The small picture is the article of Sera Davidow: DSM. Diagnosis.
    Not Allen Frances, not Trump, not republicans/democrats baby figths.
    Those are side-issues used to put a end to the discussion of this important (small picture), 2 issues: DSM lies and fake diagnosis.

  • uprising,

    I took the time to read the article of Allen Frances.
    I also read the comments (more than 50 at the time).

    I guess that experienced readers can “filter” the political distractions… autoatically.. and not even be aware of it. That was my case. That i saw of interesting in that article i already posted at this very same thread.

    Havin myself worked with politicians… is silly to see them as black or white (Democratic or Republican).

    Is the DSM democratic? Or is the DSM republican? Is a silly question, that takes nowhere.
    Both… democrats and republicans are “likely” sold. I am at other continent, i dont care f Robert Whitaker votes for A. I dont care if Allen Frances votes for B.

    I know i like the books from Whitaker.
    I dont care where: oldhead, Frank or Julie vote/or dont vote. Is a non-issue.

    I care for justice, world peace, and the rigth to choose and live free.
    ……………..

    And uprising, i dont think the comment from Marie was: “respectful and makes some valid points”.
    In my opinion (as i already said), her comment was neither. I gave her the choice to elevate the debate.
    ……………..

    Of the 3 books of Whitaker i have and have reads, i dont see politics as the main issue.
    What is see here is try to create non-issues and division, and create tabus.

    The topic is: DSM, diagnosis (and such issues).

  • Marie,
    Quote 1) from Marie: “I know plenty of educated, intelligent, nonbiased people, including women, who voted for:___”.

    Re: Surely among that elite must have been plenty of psychiatrists?
    Do you know many people labeled by the DSM, abused by psychiatrists, that volted for :___”?

    The vote is secret, isnt it? How do you know where they volted?
    And those that voted for:___”, will not regret it later?

    Obama promised, promised, promised… Did he delivered?
    ………….

    But is not the point of the article of Sera Davidow.
    Her article wont make the:___”, fans go away from this forum.

    Who is thewritejerry, anyway?
    He did not liked his cocacola. Good for him, let he try pepsi elsewhere.
    In my opinion… people that pretend to be adults, that behave like stuborn babies, and try to blackmail (threat to cause loss), is not honest.

    Do you know what is “honest”?
    Honest is to make a article that shows the readers of MIA where we are. Who defends:___”, and how very weak are Allen Frances theories of “DSM sanity”.

    And you Marie, if you were…
    a) educated;
    b) intelligent;
    c) nonbiased;
    d) non-inflamatory..
    … You could try tell what was rigth/wrong with this article of Sera Davidow. To help, us… the readers of MIA.

    If that… to tell what bothers you in the DSM is to much for you…
    I remind you: MIA is not a politics forum. Robert Whitaker is not a politician.
    “Robert Whitaker is a menace to society” (quote of Lieberman).
    ………….

    So Marie could you tell us how much is “your support” to MIA?
    So i can try to match it?
    And the rest of the readers can miss you more (if you go)?
    ………….

    Like Julie pointed… there are people interested in closing this article. Spam. Fake ofenses. Change issues. Blackmail to take away support.

    What is next? Taking the MIA forum down, by hacking it?

    Who cares of ___”? We care about the DSM. Is a huge mess, hurting millions.

  • Sera Davidow,

    I liked this article of yours. I am sure i had read other articles your wrote, since i remember your face.
    I also like you reply to the comments of the articles you make. That is useful, and helps the typical poster to further underststand things. Some authors have more articles than posts and i find it funny 🙂

    And in no way i want to direct the theme of your articles, or the personalities that you focus.

    Just wanted to point that: Allen Frances is a “heavyweigth”, and not a easy target (despite having weakeness). He is a mixed bag (a wolf in sheep sheep clothes… seems to me), talks the talk, but does NOT walk the walk. Some people gets decieved by him.

    As for Trump, Hillary or Obama… frankly there are far better USA citizens.
    Obama is past, so is Hillary. i dont care about if DDT is: a narcisist or a Gaslighter. Both things are bad.

    So i value your article, yes.

    That combo: “suffering/impaired” is tricky. And important. Is used as a weapon against SZ.
    They say we suffer (even that we dont complain). But somehow they consider that since we dont have “normal lives” we must suffer… a lot. IS NOT TRUE.

    And at the same time… the things we complain, the things we complain repeatedly… and that HURT US… are relativized to zero. Ignored. We are told to: “forget that”. “Move on”.

    So… we are treated like kids. By Allen Frances too. That know-it-all…

  • madmom,

    First, let me add some proof of what i said yesterday (related with the violence at the family). I did not posted it before, as i had to find sources at english. Here:
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-21474931

    Title: “The silent nightmare of domestic violence in Russia”.

    Quote from the article: 600,000 women victims of domestic abuse every year. 14,000 die from injuries inflicted by husbands or partners each year. Source: Russian interior ministry estimates.
    …………

    And i translated (from other sources):
    Between 12 thousands and 14 thousands of Russian women were killed by their husbands during 2008, acording to numbers of the Russian interior ministry.

    Acording to Routers, a report from the ONU (of 2010), says that at Russia about 10 thousand of women are killed by their husbands or relatives, every year.

    Acording to the journal Moscow Times, about 36 thousand women are spanked by their parteners every day. And that 26 thousand kids are spanked by their parents at Russia every year.

    So… FAMILY = EQUAL TO LOVE ?
    …………

    madmom,
    You have every rigth to interpret the article of this blog (or any other), as you like.
    You after reading the article were left with some positive feelings. Is okay. There is no need of all of us think the same way… when we read something. We are humans, so we have our preferences, our experiences, our own goals and our own standards.

    About the movie: “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest”. I like that movie, but havent seen it for a while. I dont think the article of this blog… and that movie are in the same leage. “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest” is way better.
    …………

    Quote 1) from madmom: “Most families want stability”.
    re: Is hard to generalize. Some families want stability, peace, and the mother/father want to stay in the control position. And often the sun/daugther has no where to go.

    My position is not as a father. Is at a position of a son. And i know abusive families. I know abusive psychiatrits. Some health professionals just dont care, just want to get paid at the end of the month.

    So… can a mother try to point the failures of the system and get stoned by all sides? Sure, yes.
    …………

    Quote 2) from madmom: “Family members may be victims themselves”.

    re: True. Can be a daily burden (often the heavy part falls on the mother), with litle hope (at some cases), that anything improves.
    …………

    Quote 3) from madmom: “But family members who can hang on for decades are rare”.

    re: Yes. And that is understadable. Happens all over the world. At some point… most people break.
    …………

    Quote 4) from madmom: “Why did you not see any of the positive aspects of this story?”

    re: Well, as i see it the article has too many faults. In a way is very passive, wont change anything. Will just remind those who read that blog… some not-so-nice-confused-realities.

    Polyfarmacy? Any definition at the article? No.
    Lazy article, low level… in my opinon.
    …………..

    Quote 5) from madmom: “Rather than judge this person, I think it is prudent to support such individuals”.

    re: Every little helps. If you thing so, do it, support Kevin Chroust. You can post a positive comment at his site. You can contact the author, know more about his articles and activities, buy his works, support the same causes he likes.

    We all have a limited time to live and a limited amount of energy. So i pick my choices. Some work, some dont. Is life 🙂 Good luck at your path.

  • madmom,
    You wrote a long post. Will take me some time to read it.
    The links/motives/hlep or lack of it between one person that got the diagnostic and got under psychiatric drugs and their relatives/family are way to many.

    From my experience, families have their own interests and agenda. Not always.
    You likely live at the USA. Well do you know that there are countries that… every year… thousands of women get killed by their families? Grown up women. Adult women.

    So, i will read your post and will reply tomorrow.

  • Allen Frances is not the solution.

    Allen Frances and Whitaker had their problems. Head against head. Nothing good come out of it. Is a figth that can not be winned (from the start).

    Allen Frances helped to make a earlier version of the DSM. Frnces has blood at his hands. Somehow… Frances pretends he is a nice man. At first he did (see his exchange with Whitaker), … then…

    I liked this article. It would be a nicer article if the article had quoted a psychiatristrist that had the courage to say:
    “This duck is a duck”.

    I feel Trump is not seen by what he has done. By his lies/ abuses/ manipulations. People have short atention ranges/ weak memories. Twitter memories?
    ……………..

    One point is interesting… but not carryed deep enough… you gessed… by Allen Frances.

    Here is a lie, from Allen Frances:

    “the further requirement that is crucial in defining all mental disorders — the behaviors also must cause clinically significant distress or impairment”.

    NOOOOOOT TRUE. Where i live (DSM criteria applies), you get get locked in a mental hospital (for months), by just refusing to take psychiatric drugs. Allen Frances knows that. Every psychiatric nurse knows that.
    …………..

    The original link to Allen Frances, posted at 31 January 2017:
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/saving-normal/201701/trump-isnt-crazy

    Quote 1): He says at the title: “I wrote the DSM criteria and he doesn’t meet them”.

    Well, Allen Frances directed/ helped to wrote the DSM-IV. That is dated, now the DSM-5 rules. Allen Frances is well known to criticise… PARTS of the DSM-5… and the way DSM-5 was prepared.
    But when is convenient to Allen Frances.. he IS THE AUTHORITY (not that folk Whitaker… the journalist) 🙂
    …………..

    Quote 2): “Trump’s consensus diagnosis among amateur, at-a-distance diagnosticians is Narcissistic Personality Disorder.”

    re: Humm? What is the name of a DDT that lies? Narcissistic Pinoquio Disorder?
    Yes Pinoquio, because you cant say: “YES” at the morning… “NO” at the afternoon… and at nigth say it did not happen, ot that are no rules… at nigth? Or can?
    …………..

    Quote 2): “Dismissing Trump as simply mad paradoxically reduces our ability to deal with his actions”.

    re: yes, and dismissing Trump as sane, makes a person to need a psychiatrist. Great self serving advice 🙂
    Please dear USA people…. make Mr. Allen Frances go more to the TV (as guest), as he clearly shares some of traits he quotes from Trump:

    a) grandiose self-importance;
    b) preoccupations with being brilliant and successful;
    c) feeling special and having to hang out with special people;
    d) requiring constant admiration;
    e) feeling entitled;
    f) being exploitive;
    g) being arrogant;
    h) being sucessful;
    i) Allen Frances being rich? Likely (not so much as Trump).
    …………..

    Quote 3): “The American Psychiatric Association has a useful ethics policy that explicitly prohibits the diagnosis of politicians at a distance”.

    re: yet… Allen Frances says (diagnostic by his own DSM made criteria): Trump is sane. “Trump Isn’t Crazy” (at the title).
    …………..

    Quote 4): “Please stop talking about psychiatric evaluations (or impeachment). This embarrasses us more than it does Trump.

    re: yes… talk is dangerous. Post is dangerous. Chat is dangerous. To use Twitter is dangerous.
    Wait? We people diagnosed with SZ can criticise the DSM?
    Or we will be re-labeled as: a “SZ Co-morbid Oppositional Defiant Disorder”?

    Fear! Be afraid be veryyyy afraid of criticisng the DSM 🙂
    …………..

    Quote 5): “And the people around Trump are even more dangerous than he in the long run”.

    re: So now Trump is dangerous? And the psychiatrist Allen Frances… that in his own words: “I wrote the DSM criteria”… does not know that… even theoretic… “danger”… is a big tool used to put people at all ages taking psychiatric drugs?

    Weird, Frances 🙂
    …………..

    Quote 6): At the site (53 comments), there is a very funny comment, by Michael Scarborough:

    “It’s very painful to apply this same logic to a historical figure like Hitler. Somehow it lets us off the hook as humans to write off Hitler as a lunatic. After reading this, I am forced to contemplate the reality that maybe Hitler was an evil but normal, rational, self-interested human being, just like Trump. They’re not crazy, they are us.”

    Hilarious =)
    …………..

    And to finish… seems that Allen takes the DSM… way too serious. Is at DSM criteria: you are sick. If that not fully fits the DSM criteria… you have a free pass.
    Seems to completely lack common sense. Like a robot. That is this this kind of people that will make the DSM-6. Scary.

  • registeredforthissite,

    1)
    registeredforthissite “noticed”:…” the experiences of people who underwent the psychiatry phase in their lives prior to the internet age, especially in the 70s,80s etc. tends to be a lot worse. Am I wrong?”

    2) registeredforthissite thinks that… 1) is due/caused by: “selection and confirmation bias”.

    3) registeredforthissite asks us… to “confirm”?

    Humm… are you trying to imply that the author experiences of this article are:
    A) “unique”
    and
    B) “a thing of the midle ages, impossible at 2017, at any country of planet earth”?
    Really?

    We are talking of things that go on for DECADES.
    Havent you noticed?
    Psychiatry has a long story of doing “some” things over and over.

    Yet, some people ALWAYS believe the: “new year… better life” publicity.

  • the link of the article is this:
    https://www.thefix.com/not-not-guilty

    That article of Kevin Chroust has: 3.848 words. Is long. Is wordy.
    Is a confused narrative has: no beginging, no middle and has no conclusion.

    Is “NOT NOT” worthy to read 🙂

    ………..
    From the article:

    quote 1) “Its Yelp rating is one-and-a-half stars”.

    re: Could have no stars and be better.
    ………..

    quote 2) “Illinois can’t afford a barber”.

    re: this is silly. No need of a barber to self-cut the beard. And to cut hair is not that hard to do.
    ………..

    quote 3) “He seems heavily medicated and his eyes don’t always seem to link up with mine when we look at each other”.

    quote 4) Also countable, known medications prescribed as—or in unison with—anti-psychotics: 14. I don’t know if that’s a lot.

    re: So he looks heavily medicated… and he takes fourteen (14) medical drugs, and you dont know if that is a lot?!

    Little help here: “Polypharmacy is the use of four (4), or more medications, by a patient”.
    FOUR! 4×4=16 (near to 14, yes?)
    ………..

    quote 5) “deemed unfit to stand trial”. “14 ]medical drugs, daily[ I don’t know if that’s a lot. It’s probably very average”

    re: With a family like this, and the typical psychiatrists… the mental health/justice system can do whatever they want with him… for how long they want… and sleep likes babies… every… single… nigth.
    ………..

    quote 6) “He started drinking and smoking weed when he was probably 14”. “He smoked a lot of pot and years later got around to a lot of harder drugs”.

    re: the same thing badmouthing… over and over again.

    Hey…those of you with SZ? Dont you see the trend?
    Psychiatrits put themselves under by the best ligth possible: They are sucessful, educated, rich, powerful, the best of the best.

    And the scapegoats… the SZ, those gravely sick folks…
    1) have broken brains;
    2) chemical unbalances;
    3) genetic problems;
    4) drug problems;
    5) are tobaco adicts;
    6) have alchool problems;
    7) are violent;
    8) are dumb, lack short term memory;
    9) cannot marry,
    10) cannot hold to a job;
    11) are slow, lazy, weak;
    12) and so on…
    ………..

    Yet… the same Psychiatrits that deal with them, that are so good at what they do, have such full understanding of SZ… and 1-11) is the result?

    Just “like insulin for diabetes”? Rigth mr. Lieberman?
    ………..

    quote 7), from the comments section, full quote:

    ” ejunge • 5 days ago

    thanks for a very moving essay. Imagine a country where the mentally ill have housing readily available where they can smoke (is there anyone diagnosed with schizophrenia that doesn’t smoke?) cigarettes or weed, where medications are carefully calibrated, where police are well-trained on handling mentally ill people, where facilities are clean and comfortable….. it wouldn’t stop the pain but would go a long way towards a civilized approach.

    My comment (here at MIA) to ejunge:

    “If cows had wings, they would fly”.
    Civilized approach…. MY ____ 🙂
    ………..

    This kind of narratives of Kevin Chroust, perpetuates the Pharma chains.

    You know what?
    There is even worse. I know a SZ that takes 21 (twenty one medical pills… daily). Sure, he wont last 5 years. Very civilized.

  • oldhead,
    I am not versed enough at historic positions… for this or against.

    I prefer to take a more pratical way.
    If “pencil necks” or “potato coaches” say they know better, it doesnt botter me much.

    I give you an example: i have my own method of exercising. Professionals who had seem me… say: dont do that. Yet… i can do things they cant. If they know so much better theory… why cant they they perform?

    That said, i apreciate very much your remarks and advices.

    I makes mistakes, all people that try… make mistakes. So i make mistakes and try to learn with them. When someone points my mistakes the better, i save time.

    I posted about modern slaves. I done that because i think Psychiatry is at a “too high Ivory Tower”. That is not real, is way FAKE.

    As you know, certain users at this forum… dont like that: Psychiatry, or health professionals… get associated with: “evil”, “slaves”, “corrupt”, “negligence”, “crime”, “psychiatric bias”, “psychiatric stigma”.

    And worse… people with a DSM label, buy that idea, and play that music.
    Families too.
    NAMI and “wanna-be-NAMI”… TOO.
    And “peers-wanna-be-health-professionals”… too.
    As i see it, that is part of the problem.

    Lack of vision of some ex-users. And Cynism of “wolf under sheep cloths”.
    Those fakes relativise everything, are like the 3 famous monkeys:

    Did not saw that (for years),
    did not taked to defend the diagnosed (for years),
    did not hear the DSM diagnosed complain (for years… and decades).

    And one day… those fakes regret it a bit…A tiny bit, but dont list who they hurted. Hundreds? Thousands?
    ……………

    I dont try to divide. Division is all over the place. Showing there is divisions… is not making it worse (i hope). Truth hurts, people get hurt. People split and go away. Is the natural way.

    I want see changes for the better… before i die.

    Slavery is not my business. As for race… SZ is about 1% of population, and white, black, hispanics… all get DSM diagnoses.

    I am aware that at the USA there are a lot of statistics that discriminate very well sex and race and physical health status (at several diseases). That has been done.

    I do not want do change the subject of this thread, highjacking it to: slaves/racism.
    ……………

    I am not a consumer of Pharma drugs, or a consumer of psychiatric drugs.
    And more important…i dont wanna be one. Never again.

    That said oldhead, sorry if my style seems a bit “off mark”, or agressive. I will find my way. And hope you have the pacience to help me to do that 🙂
    Thanks.

  • royalperidot,
    Sorry, i can not agree. Sure is not exactly the same. Yet even slavery changed with the times. And if you read the newspapers slvery still exists, and people still (as 2017) get convicted at a court of law (and sent ot prision), by using slaves for DECADES.

    Now, that i now for a fact at my country.
    But at my country i do not see psychiatrits go to jail (or even get convicted), for people dying because of the drugs that were forced on their pacients. For suicides of their pacients. And for abusing for years their pacients. Or for making their pacients lose their will to live, and basically become useless. The users of psychiatric drugs often become useless: can not think, can not work, can not learn,can not figth back.

    So what do you you think is worse:
    a) beeing “chemically lobotomized”?
    b) be a “old school” slave, and have some hope, and still think clearly (and suffer all the pains)?

    Easy way, hard way.
    ………………….

    Sorry, we dont agree. I dont want to argue about this. At one point we agree, things need to change.

  • Oldhead,
    Did you wanted to say the: MIA forum?
    The “Organizing for Social Change”?
    …………..

    If so… is the third line, after:
    1) “All Things Political”
    2) “Community”
    #3) “Organizing for Social Change”.

    Well, i will save the feedback of the forums for the end of February. I will only point a couple of things… how number #3) is at the moment.

    a) The first 2 threads of #3) are locked.
    b) There are more 15 threads visible (and open), at the first page of #3).

    b1) One thread is called: “Innowacyjne wnętrza”
    and inside, the first line:
    “Witam aktualnie remontuje dom. Zastanawiałem się nad tym, co mogę wymienić w domu i pomyślałem, że najlepszym pomysłem”

    b2) Which one of those 15 threads was effective… so far?

    Yes, i know there is “the question”… what is “effective”?

    Wait… there at #3) there is a QUESTION: “Anti psychiatry meme contest”.

    Ah, well… 🙂
    ………….

    That said oldhead,
    thanks for your post. Before the end of this month, i will post a list “tiny things” that could be time/ energy/ $ efficient and wont mess with the priorities of MIA.

    Sure, i would like to take some ideas from Julie,… and take them a step forward.
    But i wont do that.
    I dont know the forums (and the priorities of MIA), well enough…
    And am still waiting… for 1 thing or 2.

  • Quote: “this author has chosen to publish her story anonymously in order to protect her identity at her new job”

    Yes, that was wise… to play safe. Somehow the “peer dumbed”… or psychiatrists say otherwise…

    Well told Julie.

    As can be seen at this thread, “bad things”… happen to people who speak against the system. Or just cannot accept themselves (or others), get used like trash. So no jobs? Got fired? Lost a boyfriend after telling that “once upon a time… you had SZ”. And atourneys coufh… couffhh… “failed” to do their job. And courts got “expensive”, and he/she had to give up, or get no money. And we die erlier, much earlier than the the same matched group that never got “diganosed/ psychiatric drugs… for their broken brians, for life”.

    Yes, that is reality. As is that “peer ilusion”…that somehow is growing. So, it the “peer movement” is destroying to molecules the ex-survivors movement at Germany?

    Likely is as Microsoft done with Nokia.
    See the link:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace%2C_extend_and_extinguish

    Quote:
    “Embrace, extend, and extinguish”,[1] also known as “Embrace, extend, and exterminate”,[2] is a phrase that the U.S. Department of Justice found that was used internally by Microsoft.
    ……………..

    So, are there a huge number of problems with the “DSM labeled” folks?
    Yes.

  • Bradford,
    Quote 1: “I think Trump represents more better hope for us poor ex-“mental patients” than Hillary would have”.

    We at Europe have access to America news at TV (despite i dont have the time to do that). I was very excited when Obama was figthing to get his first mandate as President of the USA. I thougth that he would do what he was promissing. Big disapointment.

    I did not folowed the public propaganda around Trump/Clinton.
    But since i was betting Clinton would win… o looked at her program regarding the mental issues. Was funny. Not very different from any typical NEW politician. But Hilary Clinton is NOT NEW… she is been around for a long time. So i no way i believe what she was saying.

    I did not looked for Trump program, since (to me), the man would be a far better “clown” than a USA president.
    ……………………

    Quote 2: “Trump also called in Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., to head a commission looking into vaccines and the massive $$ and corruption around that, but the media is suppressing that story.~B./”

    re: We at Europe, have good memories of John F. Kennedy (that was murdered at 1963, at Dallas). He helped to keep Europe free from the URSS influence, and prevent the worse. And he also took good and corageus decisions at the Cuba missile crisis.

    But if i am not mistaken, a sister of him had a lobotomy?
    ……………………

    Quote 3: from the wikipedia: “Kennedy’s younger sister Rose Marie “Rosemary” Kennedy was born in 1918 with intellectual disabilities and underwent a prefrontal lobotomy at age 23, leaving her permanently incapacitated.”
    link:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy

    So, everybody knows that at families maybe very unfair to criticise one member, since John F. Kennedy could had nothing to do with that lobotomy. Yet…
    ……………………

    Also… is known that John F. Kennedy took several medications/drugs and had several doctors. And that him prefered medications/drugs over exercise.

    As for Trump, he posted the evaluation of his physical health. That was funny. And other candidates followed the idea. Is a bit silly the average person believes such thing.

    A typical politician of that age… and looks (even with expensive suits), says he/she is physically healthy? Those are OLD PEOPLE. (that was not to you Oldhead, i like your posts =)

    And a former USA president: Franklin D. Roosevelt (as can be read at Gary Taubes book: “Good Calories, Bad Calories”), his personal doctor, lie to him… time after time. Doctors and wanna-be doctors (psychiatrits), do that. PSYCHIATRISTS LIE !!

    Lie-berman 🙂
    ……………………

    That said (as i see it), Europe (SZ related), ex-users lacks the energy/vision. My hope is at the USA: Whitaker, MIA, and such.

    Trump can help? Is possible. Time will tell.

    And the USA press/media (TV/newspapers/net/freedoom of speach), is still one of the best USA things.

  • Frank,
    I am re-building my definitions (will take a big while).

    Thanks for telling me about the “user”. I was not aware of that. As for “consumer”… it always seemed to me a fake word. Is easy to see that the APA likes the term: “consumer”, as uses it often at the titles of: APA books/articles.

    At countries other than the USA, they have their own words (of course i wont those words at MIA).

    I consider myself to be a “ex-user”, but all schizofrenics i know use one/several pchychiatric drugs. So they are users. And they are the majority.

    As for the term “survivor”… i dont like it. Somehow is more used at people that had cancer and did not die (for a while). So for a while some call themselves: “cancer survivors” and give interviews how they win the cancer.
    Yet… sometimes cancer returns. And they die earlier than the average person that never had cancer.
    …………………….

    I am aware that posters/participants of this site have objections about using basic terms like: mental illness. And many hate the whole DSM-5.

    I dont have time at the moment to study: Thomas Szasz, Laing, Michel Foucault or Emil Kraepelin.

    So… to avoid a vacuum i need to use the term schizofrenia/schizofrenic (for a while). But likely soon i will be using the short version that Martin Harrow uses at his artices: “SZ” (i think). Much easier to write 🙂

    Like many poster here… i dont like the terms: schizofrenia/schizofrenic… and absolutely dont like the heavy negative emotional charge these 2 words have. Yet… is hard to find a substitute.

    Quote: “The power you speak of SAMHSA having is very shaky. It could crumble into very little over night”.

    Well, i am aware that the Murphy Law (and similar recent laws at the USA), want to weaken the SAMHSA (and to make it the way of the dinosaurs).
    Over the net there are sites that want to put SAMHSA under the worst ligth possible (while promoting quicker/easier forced hospitalization).

    But even that SAMHSA disapears, gets assimilated, or gets empty… SAMHSA definitions are all around the world. As are the texts/ideas of SAMHSA. That wont disapear all of the sudden (and outside of the USA, SAMHSA influence possibly will remain longer).
    …………………….

    Quote: “Tolerance of folly. De-medicalization, De-criminalization of madness”.

    re: is nice to have goals, long term goals. Of those three i dont know which one will come tue first. Surely will not happen at 2017.
    Some beaviours will get “a bit more tolerance” at the developed countries? Likely.
    Yet… privacy seems less and less for the average person. And to have it you need to pay.

    “De-medicalization”. Hard to do… and seems the trend is not going that way (people use more medications, but i havent been looking at that data lately).

    “De-criminalization of madness”. I suspect that during the Donald Trump mandate… new kinds of crimes will be createad (and punished). Here at Europe, we were very much surprised that he won the election for President.

    And at the UK there are petitions to block Trump to travel to the UK.
    De-criminalization of madness
    …………………….

    That said, i dont like the SAMHSA definitions, or line of work. Yet… if SAMHSA is bad, the substitute could be: UGLY.

  • Frank,
    I agree with that the movement: lost the north/ lost energy/ got divided / got buyed (or similar).

    And i also agree that the laws at the USA are getting worse and leaving less options. Likely some variations of that laws will be exported to the rest of the world (since is the way that things work).

    About: “working outside of the system, against the system”…
    Despite that will require more efforts and way more sacrifices… is the proven way.
    But are the users ready? Are they willing to follow that path?
    As i see it… “the peer ilusion” is still going strong.

    Are users able to see what they needs to be done?
    Well, as 2017… i see users that despite taking psychiatric drugs for years, they still have not decided… if these drugs help them… or hurt them.
    There is still a long way to go, and some users are lost cases.

    As for the choice of words: “organizing/ working/ forging/ fighting/ activism (or similar)”, english is not my native language, so i only try to “get the ball in the park”.

    To unite, to join forces/ experiences is needed, yes.
    But is ALSO needed: to be aware of what divides us.
    Like: “do not forget what divides us, but remember what unites us”.

    Now… logic (and history) says that is not wise to have one single “wolf” among the sheep.
    Naif mistakes like that… end “movements”. In due time.
    ……………

    And to post something related to the thread: SAMHSA is a organization of the United states of America. But its effects reach beyond the USA.

    SAMHSA = Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration.
    I hate the idea of people with schizofrenia beeing associated with: “substance abusers”, or “criminals”; or “violent people”; “freeloaders” or “SSI or SSDI lazy & worthless check collectors”.

    The SAMHSA may have “some” good intentions, but eveybody knows the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Some people with schizofrenia never used drugs. Some people with schizofrenia never even smoked/ used alcohol their whole life.

    when a person is diagnosed with schizofrenia is often assumed to be: a drug addict/ substance abuser/ potential suicider. Because of ideology behind SAMHSA.

    So, SAMHSA saves money? Treating drug abuse that also have mental problems (comorbidities), saves money? Is possible. Is another way to the Pharma make MORE money? You bet.

    Do schizofrenics need help for mental issues and also physical issues? They do: dental work for example. But that is not typically done. What is done is give them MORE psychiatric drugs/ treatments for the diabetes that Zyprexa (one example), created in the first place.

    SAMHSA has power. Do the schizofrenics have power?

  • shaun f ,
    Oh? Why dont i seem surprised?
    Quote: “Every peer support person I’ve worked with have significant lived experience.”

    Short comment from me: you REALLY should get out more.

    a) Not only there “peers” that lack lived experience;
    b) there are also “peers” that have/seen little beyond their own “lived” case;
    c) there are also “peers” that have been totally brainwashed;
    d) there are also “peers” there are just there for the money ( READ: if they do not get payed, they do not help ANYBODY).

  • Frank,
    We will get far without union, and so far… seems there are no clear core unions points… and a infinite amount of painful issues.
    As for get a 50,1%… a majority, so to say… i would not bet on it. Does not seen possible, not in a near future.

    At a lot of tasks… a few work hard and provide the basic direction and drive. A lot of people wont work at all.

    That said…
    Quote: “forge the alliances” … i liked that.

  • Quote 1): “MIA is not the movement, and should not be regarded as the anti-psych movement’s headquarters. MIA has different priorities”.

    re: Well, i am new here. And we all had to start somewhere. As i said, at my country is a no-go. And at Europe, it does not look promissing.

    As i see it… Robert Whitaker is a voice worthy to listen, and has helped me with his books. Gave me hope, made me understand how things works. Showed me the way. And that way worked.

    Likely there are other authors, other sites, other forums.
    …………..

    re-Quote 2): “MIA has different priorities”.

    re: Well… i know Whitaker (at this same thread), pointed “priorities/goals/changes/persons” for 2017. I do not pretend i fully understand his post. I imagine he has the best intentions. He is smart. And helikely surrounded himself with the rigth persons to get to his goals. And he has a good plan and will work/delegate/correct/add as needed during 2017.

    Yet, at his firt post (the main post), at this thread… i feel something is missing. After looking at the forum, i see much room for improvement. At the blogs i have mixed feelings. I like a few. Some fill space. And am not around enough time to pin-point exactly why things are like that.

    So, could i have made a fundamental mistake? Not seeing the “MIA Priorities”?

    Well, is possible. Time will tell. Thanks for pointing it to me, oldhead.

  • … MIA in the Year 2017…

    The end of January 2017 is near.
    During some spare time i took a look at the forum.
    Not all the threads of course, but months enough to get a idea.

    Robert Whitaker pointed plans for the site during 2017, and pointed who will be taking care of this and that. That shows vision and a plan.

    Yet at level of the “participants”, or users/posters at the forum/blogs of MIA… the plans for 2017 are not so clear.

    Among the participants/posters something is lacking.
    The forum itself could be improved. And should be improved if the MIA leaders think that the forum is important.

    Looking at certain threads at the forum that looked more promissing… what asked for user organization; activism; action… and so. Seems that the strength to do things is not there… few results. Sometimes even gets users to give up before anything is done.

    I am not lacking heart. And i wont go away.
    Things can be done… but must be done diferently.

    Lets see if at the end of February 2017… i can make a lists of sugestions to improve the MIA forum. I see a lot of efforts of the participants/posters… getting nowhere. What a waste.

  • “Sleep apnea”.

    Well, with that… you will go (at least once), to a clinic/ hospital to get a proper diagnostic.And depending of the dificulty of your case, that can be cured or not.

    Anyway, Sleep apnea can be a very serious issue, and even impact in the duration of your life, work/energy issues, family life, etc.
    ………………

    Quote 1: “I have a suspicion (can’t prove it) that being on psych meds causes an extreme hypersensitivity that makes tolerating a pap machine extremely difficult.”

    re: well, during my “haldol days”… i could not the correct breathing when swiming (and that is like ridding a bike, you never forget). Just had to breath in by the mouth. I had not idea what was going on…

    After i changed to another injectable… that changed all of the sudden. I could do the correct breathing during “crawl” (breath to both sides).

    Sounds silly? Yes. But is the reality. Is a bit scary.

    Psychiatric drugs have weird effects. Some schizophrenics feel them. Some dont.

    Some schizophrenics take haldol and dont complain at all. Other schizophrenics… hate haldol and think of it like: chemical rape. And other medications are forced into them, just to make haldol less horrible.
    ………………

    Quote 2: “It is very judgmental to say people are taking the easy way by going back to sleeping pills.”

    re: well, is my opinion, based on enough face-to-face stories. You never seen people chose a “easy way?”. When you have time compare (at a public place), where there are 2 choices
    A) The HARD WAY.
    B) the easy way.
    And see which way gets more use by the common person.
    ………………

    Quote 3: “Unfortunately, I have had a hard time finding anything that works, whether it is prescription or a supplement.”

    re: I was there too. Had a very hard time to get a sleep medication that worked.
    Found one. It made me sleepy 30 minutes later (not a lot, just more prone to go to bed).
    But as the months went by… 30 became 60 minutes. Then 1 hour. Then 2 hours. Then 3 hours.

    By the time i hit 3 hours, i knew i could not count on it, and refused to up the mg.

    And even that you find a sleep medication that “works” (in your own terms). And keepd working, even at a “safe dose”… can you garantee you will get no health trouble in 10 years (due to sleep pills)?
    ………………

    As for supplements, likely you already know: Melatonin. Helps some people a bit, but the dosage varies widly. And at high doses, melatonin gets expensive (at the end of the month).

  • AA:

    Title: “The Effortless Sleep Method: The Incredible New Cure for Insomnia and Chronic Sleep Problems”

    Author: Sasha Stephens

    Pages: ~186

    Prices:
    Kindle: 3.76 United States dollars
    Paperback (new): ~10.62 United States dollars.
    Or, the 2012 editon (new): £11.68 at the UK.
    Or, the 2012 editon: 13,74 Euros (no need for postages).

    I have my book somewhere (among many), so cant see the year of my edition.
    There is a “revised” book of the same author, but has a different title, and i have not read this second one: “The Effortless Sleep Companion” (by: Sasha Stephens).

    That said, of the several books to sleep better i had read: after before/ during/ after me self-reducing psychiatric medication (until zero),…

    “The Effortless Sleep Method” is the most pratical, and is enough on his own. I did not said: “e-a-s-y”. Is effective. And will allow you to function (after a time), with no pills.
    That said… some give up, and prefer the easy way (sleep pills).

    Sleep problems when reducing psychiatric medications are very common. Some people go back to psychiatric medications due to that.
    ………………..

    (i am not the author, and do not gain anything with promoting this book, and there is no need to re-invent the wheel)

  • Eve,

    We all need to eat, drink, some cloths, house to live, pay the bills (and put some money aside for a rainy day). That is expected. I dont know if you can keep the same standard of life that you are used… Likely will be harder. You may have to worry a bit and lower your standards.

    Assuming you can make money enough to get the basics, and still have time (AND THE WILL…), to help us… You can help.
    ………..

    When the 31 of March 2017 arrives… “some ties” you still have, will end.

    When you say: “writings”… that can be several things…
    Robert Whitaker made: books, posts and videos.

    Eve, as a soon-to-be “changed Psychiatrist”… there are other persons (with a degree and working/ publishing at the mental industry), that along the years “changed” their ways… or got a “somehow” different way of looking at the DSM/ Pharma/ medications/ schizophrenics.

    Some posters (here at MIA), may like you changed a bit, and that will be enough.
    Not me.
    ………..

    You were during many years… a Psychiatrist. The functions you did (and your training), are good enough to help. Will you do it?

    Yes, there are “lies and misinformation”. We already know.

    And you had… “very little of it in settings where people were committed or treated against their will”. Fair enough.
    ………..

    Now, my question, and a clue where you can REALLY help:
    There are some schizofrenics that despite all odds and against all things… menaged to get out of the: “injection & pills” dead end (as far as the mental laws of their countries allow them).

    Now… Eve… think hard…and help us:

    a) to reduce the time of the committings/ sectioning;
    b) how to avoid/ minimize risks at routine “check-ups” with Psychiatrists;
    c) how to avoid getting committed/ sectioned again (getting a normal life like any person, as we have that rigth).

    There. As clearly as i can say. What we need.

    As a “insider”, Eve, find ways to get that info to us. With book(s)/ posting/ emailing (as you prefer).
    But do it.

  • Quote: “I wish someone did a similar study here in Europe”.
    ……………..

    Your “whish” reminded me a comparation in a book: “Ridiculous Dietary Allowance”. Is about vitamin C. Wrote by Dr. Steve Hickley and Dr. Hillary Roberts. 2004.

    At pages: 123, 124, 125 it lists the “declarations of interests”, of the UK expert comittee on the safety of vitamins and minerals. That comittee was made by twelve (12) professors and doctors.

    Of those 12, a “tiny” 10 members… had… how should we say…? “Influences” (a euphemism).

    10 out of 12 is a mere… 83,3% (in the best case), of “influenced”.
    2 declared “no other interest”, and yet… if you have read “Anatomy of a epidemic”…

    I cant scan and post a picture of those 3 pages, and is too long to type.
    ……………..

    I will just quote the “other interests” (a tiny little… 17 interests), of one of that UK expert comittee, Donald Davies:

    1) Astazeneca
    2) Bayer Pic
    3) Bristol Myers Squibb
    4) Curis (USA)
    5) Glaxo Wellcome
    6) Lilly Research
    7) Merch Sharp & Dohme
    8) ML Laboratories
    9) Orion-Farmos
    10) Pfizer
    11) Rhone-Poulenc Rorer
    12) Roche
    13) Sanofi winthrop
    14) Schwarz Pharma
    15) Servier
    16) SmithKline Beecham
    17) Solvay

    And you see… that was about: vitamin C.
    One can think: Pharma has bougth them/owns them?
    ……………..

    What happened when a certain wistle blower (that happened to be a world class expert), when he told publicly a few things about the Big-Bad-Pharma?
    Pharma tryed to cut any and all money arriving to him, and warned all his contacts that if they knew what was good for their health… to stay away from him.

    So… the trend:

    a) People like Robert Whitaker are a: “menace to society” (Lieberman).

    b) People who testify in court against Pharma/write the truth… get no funds for any research. May lose their job. Get disciplined. Get in troubles.

    c) And yet… a few folks… get payed, have: 17… or 20… or 30 “influences”.

    Some get payed 10.000 United States dollars (or so), for 1 tiny speach.

    OMG… is that even possible? 🙂
    Of course not… is a lie spread by those anti-psychiatry folks 🙂
    All is well.

  • Well, well, nothing new under the sun?

    If i recall well (i have the book at my side), seems a certain Mr. Whitaker… and a certain Miss Lisa, published at 2015 a volume called:

    “… UNDER THE INFLUENCE”.

    Seems some money… at least one… 100 United States dollar… is in at the cover 🙂
    In a pharma package of pills. Surprise, surprise!

    So… is kind a “new wallet”?

    Now… if instead of: “Their survey results concluded that 165 of 245 (67.3%) of the organizations who responded endorsed receiving pharmaceutical industry funding and 19 of 160 (11.9%) received more than half of their funding from the industry.”

    … if instead of “pharmaceutical industry”… was: “Tobaco Industry”… i imagine people would say: they are corrupt to the bone.
    …………………

    Now, some people are very naif.
    They should listen to some whitle blowers that worked with the Pharma, looking to get psychiatrists to prescribe the pills of the brand they worked. These programs were already made and went at the USA TV. It worked. They took doctors to exotic places, they payed their expenses. And when the same doctors went home after their “meetings” at Asia… they prescrived… and prescrived. Worked.

    Take this example…. Is not true anymore, as the wikipedia page has changed.

    1 Acadia
    2 Alkermes
    3 Allon Therapeutics
    4 AstraZeneca
    5 Bioline
    6 Bristol-Myers Squibb
    7 Cephalon
    8 Eli Lilly
    9 Forest Laboratories
    10 GlaxoSmithKline
    11 Hoechst AG
    12 Hoffmann-La Roche
    13 Intra-Cellular Therapies
    14 Janssen
    15 Lundbeck
    16 Medscape
    17 Merck
    18 Novartis
    19 Organon
    20 Ortho-McNeil-Janssen
    21 Otsuka
    22 Pfizer
    23 Pierre Fabre
    24 Psychogenics
    25 Repligen Corporation
    26 Sepracor
    27 Solvay
    28 Targacept
    29 Upjohn Pharmacia
    30 Wyeth

    Now… who was in bed with those 30 women?

    I will quote the english wikipedia: “This page was last modified on 26 September 2016, at 19:36

    “In 2006, Lieberman co-signed a letter to the editor of The Wall Street Journal with around thirty other doctors. In the letter, disclosed honoraria, consulting fees, research grant support from AstraZeneca, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Upjohn Pharmacia, Novartis, Eli Lilly, Janssen, Pfizer, Hoechst AG, and AstraZeneca. He also listed as corporate speakers bureaus AstraZeneca, Janssen, Eli Lilly, and Pfizer.[7] Lieberman disclosed in 2007 in the journal Primary Psychiatry that he was a consultant to Eli Lilly and Pfizer. He was on the advisory boards of AstraZeneca, Eli Lilly, GlaxoSmithKline, Lundbeck, Organon, and Pfizer. He has a patent from Repligen Corporation. Lieberman received research support from Acadia, Bristol-Myers Squibb, GlaxoSmithKline, Janssen, Merck, Organon, and Pfizer.[8] In 2009, Lieberman disclosed grants from Allon, Forest Laboratories, Merck, Pfizer, AstraZeneca, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Cephalon, GlaxoSmithKline, Janssen, Otsuka, Solvay, and Wyeth to the American College of Neuropsychopharmacology for their annual meeting in which he participated.[9] In 2011, his disclosure at Medscape of relevant financial relationships says he served on the advisory board of Bioline, GlaxoSmithKline, Intra-Cellular Therapies, Eli Lilly, Pierre Fabre, and Psychogenics, and that he received research grants from Allon Therapeutics, GlaxoSmithKline, Ortho-McNeil-Janssen, Merck, Novartis, Pfizer, Sepracor, and Targacept.[10] He also disclosed in 2013, as a member of the psychiatry editorial board at Medscape, that he received research grants from Allon, Novartis, Sepracor, and Targacept; and he served on the advisory boards at Bioline, Intra-Cellular Therapies, Pierre Fabre and Psychogenics.[11] In additional disclosures at Medscape in 2013, he received research grants from Allon, GlaxoSmithKline, Eli Lilly, Merck, Novartis, Pfizer, Psychogenics, Hoffmann-La Roche, Sepracor, and Targacept, and he served on the advisory board of Alkermes, Bioline, Intra-Cellular Therapies, Pierre Fabre, and Psychogenics.[12]
    CATIE study”
    …………………

    Oh. That Lieberman.
    THE Jeffrey A. Lieberman. The Psychiatrist. The “anti-depressants-are-just-like-taking-insulin-for-diabetes (Lieberman)”

    Look, again (today) at the wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Lieberman

    Much shorter, yes?!
    Pharma “influence” is gone, yes?
    I wonder why? Thirty (30) “women”?
    …………………

    The same is valid for the DSM-5.
    The people who made had… a tiny 69% of them… “influences”. From Pharma. Even went up from the DSM-IV.

    Quote: “The financial association of DSM-5 panel members with industry continues to be a concern for financial conflict of interest.[61] Of the DSM-5 task force members, 69% report having ties to the pharmaceutical industry, an increase from the 57% of DSM-IV task force members.”

    link:
    The financial association of DSM-5 panel members with industry continues to be a concern for financial conflict of interest.[61] Of the DSM-5 task force members, 69% report having ties to the pharmaceutical industry, an increase from the 57% of DSM-IV task force members.[61]
    …………………

    So… “To be naif, or not to be naif…” 🙂

  • Peter Simons,
    I read quickly your article. I did not felt inspired to dig further.
    I subject is good. I believe is a subject worthy to explore.
    But does not adds nots special… changes nothing. Is not a particulary useful article.
    English is not my native language, but hope that despite that you may still consider this:

    We need better (not more), information. We need more clarity, better focus.
    And please dont reply: “write that yourself”.
    If we dont see why… are are where we are… we wont go anywhere.
    Sorry if i seem too critical, and dont point the faults. I do that hoping you improve in the future.
    I see you write about actual topics, and touch where is needed. Yet… try to do better.

  • Welcome Eve Wood.

    I took a quick read about your article.
    Despite i am lacking time today, wanted to add my 2 cents.

    Eve, took you a while to take a decision. That can be due to several things. Likely… you are still at a transition point (March 2017 is still months away, to close some doors).

    So, you made your conclusions, you took some important decisons and decided to explore new grounds. You are writting a book.

    As the time i post this you have: 1 post and 0 comments. It makes less than easy to know details. Likely… you wont be a very active poster… even after March 2017, here at the MIA.

    Ex-psychiatrists (from the USA, is nice), if willing to take some risks… and if they are willing to help the ex-users…

    Eve, hope your new career gets you more satisfaction, and you can go to sleep knowing you are fixing things from the past… and making a better future for us, too.

    That said…
    If that isnt ask to much, in your future book/s… help us. Real help.

    Think and teach us what we need to know to defend us from the psychiatrists.
    You are in the best position available for that. You been at the “other side”. You have the experience. You migth… have the will to try.
    You migth not have the courage…

    You can do that in a book, you can post, you can email.

    So far, i believe you. Time will tell.

    Thanks.

  • oldhead,

    Like i said, i am new to this site (i am building my understanding of the subject, and likely… that will take a long time).

    A thing that Robert Whitaker helped me to do… was pointing the truths and the lies (and how the parts worked). Still… there are points (that are not covered at his books), that i need to understand.
    ……………

    My point of view is as an ex-user. And i want very much to keep away from beeing forced into psychiatric hospitals and kept there against my will. And that is not garanteed.

    Sadly… i know people with schizofrenia (taking psychiatric medication), that dont see no problem with beeing hospitalized, and taking poly-pharmacy and/or double/triple their usual dose of the psychiatric medication.
    I see very little hope for those users… I have tried to talk to them, they dont care. I dont have the time or interest to do it anymore. Let them learn with their own mistakes, let them live “easy way”.

    The psychiatrist says: “here, take this white pill, it will make you sleep”.
    And the person with schizofrenia (despite beeing warned), does not care… “and white pill down the throat”.
    Their choice.
    Are those legally drug addicts, “happy”? Do they perform at least as a average person?
    A person that had read Robert Whitaker books already know the answer. I see that at my country too.
    ……………

    I dont know psychiatrist Dan Fisher, and havent read other works of him. And dont have the time to do that.
    I have seen other people that were diagnosed with schizofrenia, that were able to be: nurses, doctors, psychologists or psychiatrists.
    So what? Should they be trusted, now that they have a degree?

    The question is: “What did they done that helped real people with schizofrenia, to make them ex-users of pharma drugs, and get a FULL LIFE?”

    Robert Whitaker done that. Helped me.
    Rufus May done that? No.

    Dan Fisher cand do that? All is possible, but he writes like a typical psychiatrist. Doesnt even make sense… a person with schizofrenia… wanting to be a psychiatrist?
    ……………

    About the “peers”, and “peer movements”… at my country is see no future at that.
    Yes, psychiatrists “aprove” them… because they fully control the “Peers”. Those peers are descartable puppets at their hands. “Peers” often are naif and manipulable.

    On the other hand, psychiatrists are not naif.
    I thank othe user from this site for pointing me to this link:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3219ri/hi_im_doctor_jeffrey_lieberman_former_president/

    Quote 1) from that link, from Lieberman:
    “[–]DrJLieberman[S] 14 points 1 year ago

    I bear many scars from battles with Scientology and their anti psychiatry collaborators who have protested at scientific meetings and particularly during the period of the fifth revision of the DSM. The only thing that I can say about scientologies antipathy against psychiatry is that

    unlike the idealogical zealots like Robert Whitaker and patients who are unwilling to acknowledge their own illness and thus blame psychiatry.”
    ……………

    Quote 2) from that link, from Lieberman:
    [–]DrJLieberman[S] 12 points 1 year ago

    “Psychiatry has the dubious distinction of being the only medical specialty with an anti movement. you never hear of an anti dermotology movement or anti cardiology movement.

    Apart from scientologists the majority of these people including Robert Whitaker, have unfounded idealogical grudges against psychiatry or have had bad personal experiences. Unfortunately it’s also the case that some people with severe mental illness and don’t believe that they are ill criticize psychiatry because to do otherwise would be to acknowledge their infirmity.”
    ……………

    Dr. Jeffrey Lieberman is a psychiatrist. And a very influent one.
    How can a ex-user look at that job and STILL want to be a psychiatrist?
    How can he/she look at the mirror in the morning?

  • Link to the original article:
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/01/12/fort-lauderdale-shooting-mental-health-psychiatrist-editorials-debates/96512548/

    1) From that article, quote:
    “My experience as a board-certified psychiatrist — and as someone who has recovered from schizophrenia — teaches me that we need to expand access to recovery-oriented mental health services and to make them more welcoming to increase engagement with people early in their distress.”

    In other words:
    a) MORE treatments;
    b) EARLY treatment;

    a)+b) seems to me a case for: … more of “the same”. More “access” of the same stuff that does not work.

    There is a old say:
    “the definition of crazy is: doing the same thing and expecting different results”.

    So… Daniel B. Fisher, that says that he himself recovered from schizophrenia… well… i have seen wiser people that… “not recovered” from schizophrenia.
    ………..

    2) Quote: “As President George W. Bush’s… ”

    re: Funny, to quote George W. Bush… in a schizophrenia article. Hehe 🙂
    ………..

    3) Quote: “There are better alternatives, such as expanding evidence-based services provided by people with personal experience of recovery, called peers.”

    re: “Peers”. “Peer supporters”. “Trained peer support workers”. “Peer support specialists”. “Peer counselors”. And more names.
    Will they became one day “Dr. Peer”? Not likely…

    Peers are allowed to be peers by people in the system. Peers are not allowed to compete with profissionals of health. They are supervised by them. And often… Peers work for free. And get no recognition (unless they “play the game”).
    ………..

    4) Quote: “Dr. Daniel B. Fisher is a psychiatrist and adjunct professor at the University of Massachusetts Medical School.”

    re: likely… first a psychiatrist, and mostly a psychiatrist. I dont seen no traces of a ex-users of psychiatric services (in this article of: Daniel B. Fisher).

  • (my reply is a little out of place because where was no link: reply)
    ……………………..
    Best thing i had read today, thanks oldhead.

    To give an example: December 2016 i sent a couple of emails (in english), to a couple of organizations dealing with Schizophrenia at Europe. Today is 16 January 2017. I had no reply.

    Did i ask them to give me things…?
    No.
    I (as European/ person diagnosed with Schizophrenia, and doing well), …i asked what i could do help their 2 organizations.
    No reply to this day.
    So, despite is possible i still get a reply… seems they dont have what is necessary.
    ……………………..

    As for the MIA, i dont pretend to know the site well. There is a lot of the site i havent read. Likely there are options i am not aware.I will take care of that during this year.

    I am creating a personal foundation (understanding), of the important issues. And that could take years.

    Robert Whitaker is a good writer. And i have seen a few of his videos. He gives a frame of the causes, the evolution, breaks some myths of today about mental illnesses.

    But more is needed.

    There are scientific studies.
    Whitaker has a vision of the important parts, and how they fit.

    However… as the “Tsunami laws” at the end of 2016 showed…
    Seems to me that some people were surprised with what happened.

    Maybe is time to ex-users to get “more real”? Dream less/ talk less? And be more… efective?
    ……………………..

    As for what is needed to create power to the ex-users…. I accept suggestions.

    If i recall well (i read it quickly some time ago), the MIA site prefers that articles are signed with the real name and have a real picture of the author. I understand the reasoning behind that.
    But for some people that is a no-go.

    We take risks if we quote: times/ places/ hospitals/ doctors… and events. Not all of us have a rock solid fmaily situation, or can pay legal protection / legal advice.

    And i ask, in court… who wins?
    The words of a well know Psychiatrist?

    Or a no-name user: “lacking insigth and is a risk to himself, the city, and the whole country?”
    🙂

  • I have never tried to contact any user of this site before. I did try (with no sucess), to contact 2 bosses of this site.

    I am at Europe. Never been near the Americas (north or south). My native language is not the english or the spanish.

    Never the less, the DSM hits hard at Europe too. The APA decides at the USA and… in due time the exact same rules are upon the European Union. The silly quotes from Lieberman gets repeated here too 🙂

    At my country (looking at the point of view of a ex-user), what exists is pointless.

    So, my hopes at 2017 (and beyond), are with ex-users (likely mainly from the USA).
    This January i am still a bit busy, but i do plan to see where i can be useful (to turn the tide).

  • I plan to be more active at this site. Seems to me that here there are a few ex-users, and article markers that are worthy to read.
    I did read all the posts ot this thread. I should all mention that i have 3 books of Robert Whitaker (Anatomy, MIA, and Influence). I like the book “Anatomy of an epidemic”, more than the rest.

    So far of the posters i read during 2016, i like: Frank Blankenship; Julie Greene and oldhead
    write/think (despite i only read the MIA site not regularly at 2016).

    I want to support Robert Whitaker, so i buy his books.

    1) As for the MIA site, and improvements that could be done… it would be nice of the posts were more “print-friendly”: large, side-to-side. Is very silly to have posts that are 10cm wide (~ 3 inches).

    2) Private messages would be nice.

    3) As for the original post of Robert Whitaker (January 13, 2017 ) at this thread. Is nice to have plans. And i have no opinion about: “Our Goals for 2017” ; “Journalism projects”; “MIA Education”; “Building up our resources”; “Editorial changes”. All that can the the thing to do, and hope that it fills its goals.

    4) Now, as i see it… i would also would like to see Robert Whitaker (or a ex-users, or a group of ex-users), make plans for 2017, 2018, and 2019. And the ex-users have goals, unite and get empowerment. And make real change.

  • My 2 cents: I very much tryed to hide what i was doing to my psychiatrist.
    I was lowering by 10% my psychiatric drug (was only taking 1), and my doctor refused to lower it further, for months (despite i never had a relapse, and was doing well).
    So… i hide it, from all health professionals (except my long term closest friends).
    But it was so easy to reduce… that i taked too much to my terapist (not my psychiatrist).
    Never passed my mind she would TELL EVERYTHING.

    She did. And my psychiatrist is mad. Seh considers i lied, and no longer trusts me.
    You have been warned.

    And yes… in my humble opinion… i am doing better than the people that can be compared to me (same medication history, same doctor, same environment). Despite that… since i no longer take ANY psychiatric drugs (for over a year), i am considered a risck. My whole positive experience is fully desmissed… until 5 years have been passed. Silly?

    Dont trust, dont tell. Is safer, and psychiatrits dont know to teach to whithdrawal, anyway…

    Happy 2017.

  • I agree with the other posters, this is a good article. Is lucid. Touches important points.

    Part of the problem is at the professionals of mental health. They refuse to see and hear the complaints of the people that are forceful medicated.

    But their victims, they are to blame too.
    The victims dont complain enough.
    They have fear.
    They run away from the problem.
    They are widely, oh so widely… divided.
    So they they are poweless… and are easily silented and crushed by the system. Despite beeing many thousands… more than the doctors and nurses together.