I really appreciate the interview and the paper its based on – I work in the industry and have of course suffered myself and still do. My own suffering is entirely down be being over worked in a targets driven relentless service that is entirely focused on moving suffering people into ‘recovery’ via symptom reduction. This is essentially a meaningless paper recovery based on the administering of two self assessment measures the PHQ9 and GAD7 two measures that tell us absolutely nothing of someones complex life context and history. Even more bonkers is the fact that these two measures are also fundamental to continued service funding and ever increasing micro management. So everyone is pressured to focus on the reduction of the scores as the goal. Most therapies reduce the complexity of the world/context to mere ‘triggers’ for some hypothesized internal disorder and seek through insight and will power to change ‘unhelpful’ or ‘disordered’ (in reality utterly normal and expected) thoughts, beliefs, attitudes, behaviors into more ‘rational’ or balanced modes of being – ultimately services seen to be mostly about helping people simply get on with it to accept the unacceptable. Perhaps an approach based on helping us develop what David Smail called ‘outsight’ would be better because this would help us connect with and understand how the culture through power is causing our suffering from top down from politics, economy, ideology, media, education, jobs, debt, broken communities, alienation, fear, food systems, advertising, food banks and on and on. Mental Health Services in the UK such as IAPT are causing huge levels of staff suffering through burnout, due to targets and this production line of suffering model we currently have.