Thursday, May 13, 2021

Comments by TirelessFighter3

Showing 345 of 399 comments. Show all.

  • The mental health system should not even exist. All these people should be getting prosecuted for Crimes Against Humanity in the International Court.

    I would suggest that you consider a lawsuit. Therapists have the most power to harm you in what Freud called ‘transference’. In layman’s terms, this is when the client realizes that they have been disclosing their affairs to someone who is not on their side, but rather is on the side of the parents, and has duped them.

    The power that the mental health system has all derives from your disclosing your thoughts and affairs to them, instead of just giving them the middle finger.

    http://www.therapyabuse.org/p2-emotional-abuse-in-therapy.htm

    I am not a lawyer, but if you tell me which state you are in, I’ll do what it takes to find you one.

  • I say now! We need to stop debating with Psychiatrists and Psychotherapists, and instead identify actions we can take, mostly refusing to deal with Mental Health and Recovery, and also targeting facets of it to put out of business. I don’t think this is that hard.

    In some states they have outlawed the practice of Sexual Orientation Realignment Therapy upon minors. I applaud this, and I see it as a first step towards outlawing the practice of any type of psychotherapy upon a minor, except for when it is for a minor currently being represented by an attorney in court.

    If we can do this, that will end the use of psychotherapy as a cover up, at least with minors, but it will also make the rest of the population take a closer look at what it is actually being used for.

  • OKay, but when you keep saying ‘ED’ over and over it does sound like you do see it as a ‘disorder’, and that likely will be seen as something similar to ~~mental illness~~.

    So if you want nutritionists to handle it, and you want more access to these nutritionalists and them to be more trained in this, okay. But what would they do?

    So as you talk about ED, what is the cure or treatment for ED?

    My knowledge is obviously limited. But as I know what the medical community would do is just check a few things and monitor the person, but generally there is no cure of treatment, there is just psychotherapy, as they see it as a behavior issue, but also being driven by some societal issues which get to young women’s identities.

    What do you think the cure or treatment should be?

    For myself, I am rejecting the concept of ~~ED~~ and instead just talking about self-destructive eating practices. I am also rejecting psychotherapy, but seeing such self-destructive eating practices as the result of some sort or another of political oppression and abuse. And then of course the remedy is to come to understand this and then to politically organize and take political action. Guerilla Girls, radical pro-sex, pro-prostitution, pro-women in art feminists would be the first place I would suggest looking for an ongoing political movement.

    What do you think? I am trying to understand what your POV is.

  • So do you think there should be any recommended remedy or response to destructive eating patterns?

    And I assume that you know that ours in not a society which just stands by and watches people die. If someone is incapacitating themselves, then eventually they will be loaded into an ambulance and delivered to a hospital, and there consent will not even be sought.

    And things being as they are, they stand a good chance of ending up on a psych ward, and getting drugged.

    Is this okay with you? If not, how would you like to see it changed?

    I take it that you do believe that there is such a thing as ~Eating Disorders~. But you must know that that sounds a great deal like the idea that there is such a thing as ~Mental Illness~. Do you want to alter this, or are you happy with how it is?

    In the example I showed you from a mother daughter book, this was in one of countries most prestigious residential communities, and with one of the most demanding high schools in the country, Palo Alto CA’s Henry Gunn High School. And it had recently become famous because of a string of teenage suicides, seemingly over the high level of academic pressure. And so we have this teenage girl seriously harming herself and on track to becoming the youngest person in a nursing home and being confined to a wheel chair. Do you thing some sort of research or investigation or corrective actions are warranted?

    https://www.amazon.com/Hungry-Mother-Daughter-Fight-Anorexia/dp/0425227901/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

    One of the original premises of psychoanalysis, going back to Freud is that to know a person you have to have some understanding of the nature of the family relations they grew up in.

    Now, myself being against psychoanalysis, I don’t go where they take it. I see there as being a whole host of other societal issues. And this is how they see it in the Milan School too. I don’t even support psychoanalysis as it is based on confession and disclosure. Where what we need is direction in political, legal, and direct action.

    Do you see there as being anything worth looking at when people are eating in highly self destructive manners? Doesn’t it to you indicate the probability of constraints and problems which they do not know how to resolve?

  • Want to list a few more references from the above book, co-edited by Sami Timimi

    For Chapter 13, written by Tom Billingon

    he has written:
    https://www.amazon.com/Separating-Losing-Excluding-Children-Narratives-ebook/dp/B000FA6234/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1518299036&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Tom+Billingon+separating+losing

    then we have Henri Bergon, Baruch Spinoza, Gilbert Ryle,

    and the philosopher of science Isabelle Stengers
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabelle_Stengers

    https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Whitehead-Free-Creation-Concepts/dp/067441697X/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1518299227&sr=8-9&keywords=isabelle+stengers

    Then much by this Antonio Damasio

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Damasio

    https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=Antonio+Damasio&search-alias=books&field-author=Antonio+Damasio&sort=relevancerank

    Note: If you want a body and sense oriented book from Deleuze and Guattari, rather like a Mearlu-Ponty sort of thinking, then that would be Logic of Sense.

  • Peer Support? No, that is no good. It implies recovery and rehabilitation, the Uncle Tom route for dealing with injustice.

    We need Comrades At The Barricades, because the way people evolve is by claiming their place in the world, and by fighting shoulder to shoulder, and by restoring their honor and their biographies.

    So you can keep your peer support, designed to create basket cases.

    To Live And Die With Honor
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlWVV5imXSM

  • Julie, do you see that self destructive patterns of eating are primarily the result of living in just too small of a social space, too many contradictions, and too much hypocrisy, and not seeing anyway to do anything about it?

    From the Milan School of Family Systems Therapy:
    https://www.amazon.com/Self-Starvation-Mara-Selvini-Palazzoli/dp/0876683103/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1517963696&sr=8-1&keywords=Mara+Selvini-Palazzoli

    Shouldn’t be hard to obtain the book, as their group has been so extremely influential. They have showed how things work in families, and what it is which is so different about middle-class families.

    I’m not endorsing psychotherapy or psychoanalysis, but I do think you need to understand the insights and understanding generated. But then instead of going the route of recovery and healing, the Uncle Tom route, instead put those insights and that understanding into direct political and legal action.

  • Feeling Discouraged, yes I do know what happened to Rep Tim Murphy, jackass that he is.

    Sera wrote, “I genuinely am not sure why you are posting this here. This blog isn’t about ‘recovery.’ I’ve been pretty clear for many years that I don’t support the concept.”

    But Sera, what then is the object of your activism? Those who have been in the psychiatric system are a persecuted minority, robbed of any kind of a legitimated biography, and usually still blocked in any efforts to reclaim such a biography.

    Tina Minkowitz, Esq. wrote:
    https://www.madinamerica.com/2017/10/un-to-usa-forced-treatment-prohibited/#comment-116741
    “Therapy or recovery is not a remedy for forced treatment, the remedy is abolition and a full and comprehensive effort to make reparations to victims/survivors.”

    Sera, you wrote to the newspaper and they published your letters. To me, it seemed like you were pleading, trying to reason with readers and evoke a sense of pity. And I think you endorsed various programs like halfway houses or Soteria, or your group, or other things, which in that context, must be interpreted as “Recovery Programs”. You were offering these as the alternative to forced psychiatric procedures.

    People who are standing up for themselves do not plead:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LKQRXYyRn8

    Remember, the mental health system and recovery movement are rooted in the bogus sciences of Social Darwinism and Eugenics. And though these are bogus, when you plead for pity, instead of showing how people can stand up for themselves, you feed the idea that there is some basis in these bogus sciences.

  • Thank you Bryan for filing your lawsuit. You are helping yourself, and you are helping countless others, as your suit will likely open the door to more lawsuits.

    You are fighting to restore your public honor, and others will undoubtedly follow your example.

    No amount of therapy or recovery will ever restore anyone’s honor, quite the contrary they just push people further and further from actually standing up for themselves.

    We have so called activists who plead for pity and recovery. And we have doctors who only want to put 10% as many children on drugs. It is a dire state of affairs.

    I commend you for your courage and for the example you are setting!

  • Targeting a segment of the population, children, giving them senseless drugs just to experiment with altering them, and to feed an industry. Can anyone tell me why that would not fall within the Nuremburg definition of Crimes Against Humanity, and its Capital form?

    Via a German NGO we could investigate and get a court to bring an indictment, just like was done with Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush, never expiring War Crimes indictments. Won’t see either of those two guys at October Fest.

  • From my admitted arm chair vantage point, it all seems like a coming of age issue.

    Lawrence Kelmenson talks about ~Bipolar Disorder~ and links it to adolescence.
    https://www.madinamerica.com/2018/01/make-adolescence-permanent-bipolar-disorder/

    I’m seeing this is a predominantly male matter.

    So the ~Bipolar~ and ~Eating Disorders~ could be coming of age issues, mostly problems coming from being blocked from adulthood. And this blockage would be by virtue of the lies, hypocrisy, and conflicting values, and usually from having been made the family scapegoat.

    If you want to say that this dangerous eating is caused by nothing, then that does support a medical or behaviorlist model.

    I am more inclined to see it all as related to exploitation, that is, being used.

    This guy is too conservative for me, but his is an outstanding book, and you don’t need to have the latest edition. I spent lots of time reading this and it really made me think.
    https://www.amazon.com/Adolescence-Laurence-Steinberg/dp/1259567826

    He exonerates adolescents from the usual criticisms, showing how it is just because of the strange world they are forced to live in. And remember, adolescence is an invention of the industrial era. And how long it lasts depends on how well of the parents are. Adolescence turns into a bigger hell the longer it goes on.

    If you knew someone eating self-destructively, what would you do or suggest?

  • Want to list a few more references from the above book, co-edited by Sami Timimi

    from Chapter 12, Critical Systemic Therapy, by Mark Haydon-Laurelut

    I don’t see Family Systems Therapy in the same sort of negative light that is most all other forms of therapy. It is more a kind of mediation. But, the child must still be represented by an attorney in court, as this is the only way to have any authority over the parents.

    mentions an article by this Lynn Hoffman, she has books too.

    Mentions works of this W. B. Pearce.

    Mentions works of Mara Selvini-Palazzoli
    This would be that Milan School of Family Systems Therapy. Again, more mediation than psychotherapy. From their books I much better learned to understand what is distinct about the Middle-Class Family, as opposed to other forms.

    http://www.massimoschinco.it/the%20Milan%20Approach%20-%20roots%20and%20evolution.pdf

    https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Mara+Selvini-Palazzoli

    And here, about harmful eating patters, otherwise known as ~Eating Disorders~
    https://www.amazon.com/Self-Starvation-Mara-Selvini-Palazzoli/dp/0876683103/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1517963696&sr=8-1&keywords=Mara+Selvini-Palazzoli

  • Julie, I see your point that since dangerous and unhealthy eating practices are often kept secret, it is difficult to have good statistics.

    Suppose you knew of someone and had regular contact with that person and you knew that they were doing dangerous eating. Lets say it involved ‘purging’. I see that as significant, taking it beyond just overeating or bad diet.

    What would you do? I assume that you would not send them to a psychotherapist.

    For me, I would suggest to them political consciousness raising and political activism. And for a girl this would be the Guerrilla Girls.

    https://www.guerrillagirls.com/

    This deals with women in art, but it is also about body image and roles. It is feminism, but it is not that anti-sex puritanical feminism. That was used in order to obtain the vote. But it also still exists in anti-porn crusades and in conjunction with religion.

    Gurerrilla Girls is more pro-sex feminism, drawing from Existentialism and from Marxism. They have a great deal in common with the Russian girls, Pussy Riot.

    A woman’s body image is one thing when being compared to the advertising and entertainment industries. But very different when it comes to real sex.

    As far as political consciousness raising, I mean like here in this fictionalized telling:
    https://youtu.be/b1PmnZ9hejw?t=24m23s

  • A truly integrated system of care would mean that we have zero privacy, not even in our thoughts. We are being subject to manipulation at every turn.

    My friend, needed care for his heart condition from the County Hospital. But they wanted to send him to a psychiatrist and get him put on the neurotoxin Zoloft.

    So I wrote to him and length warning him how bad all types of psychotherapy and psychiatric drugs are. I offered to find him a lawyer. He accepted my offer, and he also terminated all contact with the psychiatrist.

    So I am very pleased. At this juncture he also has no need for a lawyer.

    But if they tried to make his heart condition care subject to seeing the psychiatrist? Is that what is meant by integrated care?

    Then he would need a lawyer.

    We must fight this idea of integrated care as though our lives depended upon it, because they do. I also suggest a good place to start is with the new building at UC Irvine, and also because of the seeming connection between that and the Saddleback Church.

  • Finishing up with the book Sami Timimi edited with Rebecca Mallett, and Katherine Runswick-Cole
    Re-Thinking Autism: Diagnosis, Identity and Equality

    https://www.amazon.com/Re-Thinking-Autism-Diagnosis-Identity-Equality-ebook/dp/B01F2HV7D4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1515969324&sr=8-1&keywords=sami+timimi+autism

    I want to list some of its book references here:

    M. Kimmel (2004) The Gendered Society

    Anne McGuire (2016) War on Autism: On the Cultural Logic of Normative Violence (Corporealities: Discourses Of Disability)

    works of Rebecca Mallet and Katherine Runswick-Cole

    works of D. Goodley

    works of Kim Davies

    works of Fiona Kumari Campbell

    and online Jim Sinclair, don’t mourn for us:

    http://www.autreat.com/dont_mourn.html

    http://autismmythbusters.com/general-public/autistic-vs-people-with-autism/jim-sinclair-why-i-dislike-person-first-language/

  • amikatari,

    Talk about healing is another way of abusing survivors and helping the perpetrators. And self-help books are as abusive as therapy, except for the fact that it is easier for you to put the book down if you do not agree with it.

    We all live in a world which is abusive. It is no less so today than it was when we were children. And so the adult survivor is just as marginalized and preyed on as they ever were. Its just that the methods and the pedagogy manuals and the talk of the therapists continues to get slicker.

    The way we relegitimate our biographies is not via Therapy or Recovery, it is by asserting ourselves, asserting our wills, and talking political and legal action. We gain legitimacy in how we are able to politically organize, and in how we stand up for ourselves and others.

    Thank you for posting!!

  • We must just discourage people from having any dealings with Psychiatrists, Psychoanalysts, or Psychotherapists. What these people attempt to do, get the angry and alienated to accept society the way it is, and tell them that their health and wellbeing depend upon this, is just wrong.

    And then stop our government from being able to license it. Until this happens, these violators will continue to have power. Angry persons will always be dismissed by telling them that they ‘need therapy’.

    The only exception would be a Psychologist trying to aide someone, adult or juvenile, who is currently be represented by an attorney in court.

    And then some will get something like psychotherapy from clergy. And really, psychotherapy only exists because of the abject failings of western religion anyway. So let them deal with their clergy. Sure, it is just as much non-sense as psychotherapy, but at least the government is not licensing it and making it normative.

    The alternative to all these therapies is political consciousness raising and political activism. These things change people because the people are focusing themselves on making social change, and because they do this by finding comrades.

    Your therapist is not your comrade.

    So yes, ERADICATE THE MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM AND PROSECUTE THE PRACTITIONERS!

    “A degree in medicine is about as useful as a bull in a China shop when it comes to navigating human experience.
    We need a catalogue of abuse, not a catalogue of ancient bullshit”

    ^^^^^ YES!

  • Julie, thank you for posting your article and for replying to me. I do not go along with the idea of ~eating disorders~.

    But when you find people who are eating in self-destructive and dangerous ways, isn’t it usually true that it is young women?

    And is it true that it is more common amongst the white, well-off suburbanites, instead of with low income inner city ethnics? I would suspect yes, but I really do not know.

    To me it seems like a coming of age issue, living in a very small box of contradictions and manipulations.

    And is it also true that it is highly correlated to the young woman living with her parents and being a sexual virgin?

    The mother daughter book I posted of was people living in the very prestigious Palo Alto CA, and at one of the most prestigious high schools in the country, Henry Gunn High School, and they talked about this in the interviews and in the book.

    Do you agree with me that a behavioral approach is non-sense?

    So that usually leads to the psychoanalytic view. But the alternative to this is the political consciousness and political activism approach. Does this make sense?

    Other than Capitalist objectification of women via images, and non-sensical double standards, what else do you think contributes to it?

  • Of course talk therapists try to make people believe that their anger and distress is not warranted. Otherwise what do they do?

    Otherwise they would have experience in legal and political activism, to actually remedy the social and civil standing of their clients, instead of taking advantage of their vulnerability.

  • Julie, thank your for posting your article and for replying to me. Actually after I submitted my reply I thought about editing it, while there was still time. But it is actually better that my original submission is up, because I want now to back pedal and alter some of what I have said.

    I might sound like I am endorsing psychotherapy or recovery groups. That was not really my intent.

    Also, I would never tell anyone that they ‘need therapy’, doing that is totally unacceptable. I hope it didn’t come across as my meaning that. I did not.

    So I say there is no such thing as ~eating disorders~. But having said that there are people who are eating in destructive ways. And I guess there are acute versions of this, and there are also chronic versions of this. Much of the population, including myself, would be in this second category.

    So though I am opposed to psychotherapy and the concept of recovery, if someone is doing binge eating or something else highly destructive, and they say they want psychotherapy or recovery, then I am not going to block their way. This was all I meant.

    But what do I really thing would be best? Well to me it seems like a coming of age issue, and the vast majority of this applying to young women.

    So then first of all, I would say that the behavioral therapies are worthless and just self torture.

    Second, this is a book which I have not read, but it has long seemed like it is one intended to get at the coming of age issues for young women, and especially based on the insight that the issues are not with these women themselves, but rather are about the hypocrisy of the world they live in.

    https://www.amazon.com/Reviving-Ophelia-Saving-Selves-Adolescent/dp/1594481881/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1517695603&sr=8-1&keywords=reviving+ophelia+book&dpID=51LT0LBoZBL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

    And so what drives these body image issues? As I know it is the fashion and entertainment industries, and the unrealistic ideals they promote. It is also just that images of young women are used to advertise most everything. And then some would say that it is also just the way men think about women.

    Now, of that above list, it is unlikely that anyone is going to be able to change much of it.

    But I want to stand on what I have previously laid out, that the alternative to the self denigration and lies of psychotherapy and recovery is political consciousness raising and political activism.

    And also, I have years ago talked about this with others. As I see it, most every society has always used sexualized images of young women in a symbolic way. And really when you get to primitive societies it is not really images, it is the young women themselves.

    The way it is for us is the product of Capitalism. And as Deleuze and Guattari tell us, Capitalism works by overcoding, and by the creation of images. So I would say that the pagan religious sexualization is being appropriated and turned into something quite different.

    So a pagan society would celebrate sexual desire. And the standards for female beauty in such a face two face context would be much broader than the standards would be the creation of images in our Capitalist society. The way it is in our society actually creates sexual frustration.

    So we have to look to the young women themselves who are engaging in destructive patterns of eating. Where do they think attention should be focused? Where is the bogeyman which is causing all of this?

    Say for example, an adolescent girl is expected to come of age in a social box which is just too small because it is filled with deep contradictions and heavy doses of hypocrisy. So it turns into an unworkable situation, and such destructive eating patterns ensue.

    As I see it, that is what this book is about, the deep contradictions and hypocrisy:
    https://www.amazon.com/Womens-Room-Novel-Marilyn-French/dp/0143114506/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1517697791&sr=8-1&keywords=women%27s+room&dpID=51jm%252BbBsX5L&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

    The remedy would then be to let her work with others, not therapy or recovery, but shoulder to shoulder with others who are taking political action, striking back at the bogey man.

    So we have a Capitalist society which has the fashion and entertainment industries, and advertising, and then just the ways men are taught to view women. And then as a product of this you have the idea created that sex is available for a man only if he has lots and lots of money, and for a woman only if she meets some very unrealistic ideals.

    But in fact this last premise is not really true. People with lots and lots of money are more often than not very guarded and cautious people. There is more sex for those at the lower levels of our socioeconomic ladder, more in bohemian enclaves, and in outcast enclaves. Sex is revolutionary when it attacks societal standards and expectations. So the Capitalist representation is not real sex. But it is also not really factual either.

    So then, those wishing to fight back against these forces in our society, they could first of all show women doing things which are not based on image or sex appeal, all sorts of things, intellectual things, artistic things, all manner things. And these should not have to be moralistic, puritanical. And then also, they could fight back against this linking of sex to images and unrealistic standards and to great wealth, via real sex.

    I’ve always been impressed with and entertained by:
    https://www.guerrillagirls.com/

    So in my view, as with everything else, I believe that once one learns that they are needed in the trenches of political activism, instead of in their therapist’s office, that then their supposed ~illnesses~, ~disorders~, and ~addictions~ would evaporate.

  • Drugs, talk psychotherapy, and eclectic psychotherapy can all result in suicide. The reason is that they are all based on convincing people of falsehood.

    They make people believe that their anger and distress are not warranted, and that it is they themselves that are the problem, and that the correction is more therapy or drugs.

    When in fact, none of this does anything to redress their social and civil standing. So the therapist is a con artist, a liar.

    But people believe it and their life gets worse, and so some take the only way out they can see.

  • Sera, about supporting the concept of Recovery:

    Unless anti-Paychiatry activism is people fighting for something tangible, then it really is just more pity seeking. “Please Rep Murphy, don’t subject us to involuntary psychiatric procedures, let us have or recovery. We are non-violent, neutered.”

    It comes down to political activism and the way it most always proceeds. There can never be any pleading in it. So you don’t plead for relief from Tim Murphy’s bill, you let everyone know that all available means will be used to prevent it from being enforced.

    And then with those who have survived the mental health and recovery system, you demand penalities for perpetrators, and reparations for perpetrators. If you don’t do this, then you are saying that it is your side which is at fault, so such penalties and reparations are not warranted. So it is still more pity seeking.

    Angela Davis
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LKQRXYyRn8

    James Forman
    https://youtu.be/Ej2BCUIdUI4?t=43m44s

    Stokely Carmichael
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_klzg5kkbhM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym0h6NusUw0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMYTN0-2ugI

    The Mental Health – Recovery Movement is simply the continuation of the bogus sciences of Social Darwinism and Eugenics. So though these sciences are bogus, when you take a passive and pleading posture towards them, you make it look like they are legitimate.

    A Work In Progress
    https://sites.google.com/site/stompingthecockroach/

  • Thank you for writing this Julie. My own feeling is that just like ~~Mental Illness~~ is made up, so too are ~~Eating Disorders~~. There is no illness, or disorder.

    Now, we know that there are many people eating in very dangerous and destructive ways. And this seems to be most with young women, and it seems related to the unrealistic ideals which the fashion and entertainment industry holds up. And then, the images of young women are used throughout our society to advertise most everything. This is done so much so, that the young women themselves are made into a market commodity.

    So while I say no disease, no illness, no disorder, my heart goes out to anyone who is eating in a harmful or destructive way.

    The world is unfair and unjust. But I also think that some sort of self exploration groups or discussion groups would be the best way to deal with it. The young women are not at fault. But if they don’t change their eating practices, they are likely to die. And you won’t hear me endorse anything which could be turned against the sufferers very often.

    As far as some kind of therapy, I don’t know. Usually they say that therapy works only when the therapist is more adventurous than the client, and this is not often.

    https://www.amazon.com/When-Talk-Not-Cheap-Therapist/dp/0446300705/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1517613788&sr=1-1&keywords=when+talk+is+not+cheap

    Listened to these two on the radio, this Lisa Himmel was really eating in a dangerous way, likely to have ended up in a nursing home. But her parents were the restaurant critics for the newspaper.

    https://www.amazon.com/Hungry-Mother-Daughter-Fight-Anorexia/dp/0425227901/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1517613553&sr=1-1&keywords=sheila+himmel

  • This article must get the record for getting the most posts, and long posts, the fastest.

    Yes, abolish the mental health system, and incarcerate the practitioners. If someone is giving mood alteration drugs to a minor, then prosecute them for Crimes Against Humanity in the International Court.

    Stop our government from giving out psychotherapy licenses.

    The entire edifice is much like Social Darwinism. It take those who are marginalized and hence vulnerable, and then further marginalizes them by taking advantage of them.

    If parents are taking a child to a psychotherapist, and that child is not already being represented in court by an attorney, then the therapist is being hired to help to exploit the child. That should be prosecuted as felony violation of mandatory reporting.

    The entire edifice is simply converting the experience of injustice into a medical problem and self improvement project.

    But I will admit, that most people in the Mental Health – Recovery System are in such voluntarily. They are just being duped.

    So we have to work with such duped and raise their political consciousness so that they are willing to strike back. Can’t solve the problem from the top down.

    https://sites.google.com/site/stompingthecockroach/

  • “the number one actual function of today’s psychiatric industry is covering up child abuse, ”

    Amen!

    Mandatory reporting is supposed to stop it, but with those in private practice the function of the doctor is to exonerate the parents.

    The middle-class family exists to exploit, abuse, and psychically maim and scar children. Pedagogy manuals and hiring its own doctors are the primary signature.

    All such parenting advice is simply coaching on how to exploit children. It serves the parents.

  • Not a single person on your leadership team that would say that they are invested in the concept of ‘recovery’, yet it still the primary noun in the group’s name. And you think that I am being presumptuous and making assumptions when I say that you are promoting ‘recovery’?

    Well if you are not going to promote ‘recovery’, then I will be anxious to see what happens.

  • My friend has refused to see the psychiatrist or take any neurotoxins.

    Good.

    So he doesn’t need a lawyer.

    But bad news, his health problems seem to be stemming from something I did not know, that he is still using crystal meth.

    With his last hospital admission they found it in his blood.

    Not Good!

  • The vast majority of middle-class child abuse involves doctors of one sort or another. It is the doctor’s license which makes law suits and criminal prosecution difficult. But mandatory reporting was supposed to solve this.

    With doctors in public practice, mandatory reporting might solve it. It gives the child a lawyer and a judge. Parents know that they cannot use such doctors as accomplice abusers.

    But for doctors in private practice, no way. Their whole business model involves playing God while using the child as a pawn and getting money out of the parents.

    But calling what the middle-class does child abuse is challenging for people, because they don’t understand. It gets slicker every decade as there is a new generation of doctors and a new generation of pedagogy manuals. So I prefer to call it ‘child exploitation’. Meaning I am not saying that it is aberrational. Quite the contrary, it is normative.

    We need to learn how to fight and stop this kind of exploitation. And we need to teach children how to stop it and give them the kind of rights and back up that let them exercise their power to stop it.

  • Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, Recovery, and Drugging end, when those being targeted start to organize and act to defend themselves.

    I am currently trying to get a guy a lawyer, because to get primary care for his heart condition, the County Hospital is trying to send him to a psychiatrist and get him on the neurotoxin called Zoloft.

  • Sera, I read your Recovery Trap blog before I joined this forum. It impressed me.

    But you are involved with a group which uses the word “Recovery”, and you seem committed to the concept.

    Mental Illness, Needing Psychotherapy, Needing Recovery end when those being impugned start politically organizing and fighting back, instead of pleading for pity and recovery.

    If you have burned out on pleading for pity and recovery, and are not going to do it anymore, GREAT!

  • This entire article simply legitimates parents and supports the idea of ‘needing therapy’, while it is the child who is being exploited.

    Parenting Advice, Pedagogy Manuals, Psychotherapy, these are simply ways to abuse children.

    So we need to be teaching children to fight back to protect themselves, and working to shut down this therapy and parent legitimating industry.

  • Psychotherapy and talk about ‘healing’ is simply a way to finish the work of the abusers! Even if the survivor is no longer a child, that they would eventually end up in the office of a Psychiatrist or Psychotherapist is quite predictable.

    And a psychiatrist or psychotherapist is never going to do anything to objectively redress the wrongs perpetrated, or to change the ways our society supports child exploitation and sides with the abusers.

    No of course not, their job is to tell the survivors that they have no choice but just to live with the situation, and that it is really after all they who are the ones at fault for not seeing this earlier.

    And this is why Jeffrey Masson, former Curator of the Sigmund Freud Institute in Vienna, says unequivocally that the “practice of psychotherapy is wrong because it is profiting from the misery of others”.

    https://www.amazon.com/Against-Therapy-J-Moussaieff-Masson/dp/1567510221

    And Masson also says that every single kind of issue that people try to deal with in the therapist’s office should be dealt with in some other venue.

    People feel anguish, distress, pain, fear, because their social and civil standing have been compromised, and so their survival is being threatened. And so then being told about healing and forgiveness is just another layer of abuse. It all works like the bogus doctrine of Social Darwinism, blaming those who are marginalized for their own marginalization.

    There are two necessary steps to restoring social and civil standing. First, demonstrating the ability to politically organize and fight back. And second, demonstrating willingness and ability to risk life and liberty in defending self and others. This is how one regains a legitimated biography.

    A therapist’s office is where survivors are conned with this promise of ‘healing’ into confessing their anger on the couch and into celebrating their own impotence by punching pillows and screaming at them.

    I currently have a friend who has a heart condition and is getting his primary care through the County Hospital. But they are now sending him to a psychiatrist who wants to put him on drugs. I am helping him to find a lawyer, and I have coached him on how to stand up for himself and refuse to see or talk with this psychiatrist.

    I told him that as I see it, we should all be picketing and passing out fliers in front of the County Hospital, and then also going after White Suburbia’s Fix-My-Kid Doctors.

  • Abolishing the family has always been an idea in Marxism, in the Manifesto, and in Lenin’s first minister of women’s affairs, Alexandra Kollontai, and it’s in Wilhelm Reich. I suspect that it started with Plato’s Republic. But in 1930, responding to the Frankfurt School, Moscow disavowed and forbade any attacks on The Family.

    The middle-class family is always the unstated normative standard of the Mental Health and Recovery systems. And that it is seen as a norm is why Foster Care is usually so horrible.

    The middle-class family is something akin to slavery.

    Highly recommended:
    https://www.amazon.com/Anti-Social-Family-Radical-Thinkers/dp/1781687595

    And showing how all the mental health system really is, amounts to a theory of The Family:
    https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Theory-Family-Mark-Poster/dp/0861040600/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1516579788&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=critical+theory+on+the+family+mark+poster

    Full text online:
    http://faculty.humanities.uci.edu/poster/CTF/

  • Psychotherapy is a dangerous and shameless scam, even the eclectic therapies. The basic idea is that the client needs healing.

    But this is simply a way of turning the client’s experience of injustice back onto the client. Like everyone else, the client lives in a world which is unfair and abusive. The client feels distress because their social and civil standing have been compromised, and so their survival is being threatened.

    Telling them that they need healing is just a predatory way of taking advantage of their marginalization, and turning it back against them.

    And because psychotherapy is so fraudulent, it is not uncommon that it results in suicides.

    The truth is that marginalized people, fairly or not, need to politically organize and then fight to regain their social and civil standing. This is after all the only way one can restore their biography.

    Psychotherapy and the idea of healing are just instructions in how to become an Uncle Tom and beg for pity.

    If people want to be respected and want their biography to be legitimated, then they have to engage in conflict. They must demonstrate the ability to politically organize and demonstrate skill, ability, and willingness to risk life and liberty in the defense of self and others.

    The only thing any kind of a psychotherapist will ever teach you to do is how to beg for pity and learn to live in the very small social space which the abusers have left.

    And the most dangerous thing about a psychotherapist is that they carry a government license. We must act to eliminate these licenses.

    A work in progress:
    https://sites.google.com/site/stompingthecockroach/

  • I agree with you Susan that the Libertarian Anti-Government movement is a problem. We have lots of people on this forum who go along with it, and so they don’t believe in child protection. They don’t seem to understand that approaching things there way, children become property, and live only at the whims of the parents.

  • Well, Capitalism works by making people feel at fault, that they have a duty to strive to get ahead, and that they have yet to prove their worthyness.

    The Mental Health / Recovery System works with Capitalism and with the Middle-Class Family. So children are exploited, and then sent to therapy and recovery to finish the process.

    So the first step in liberation is to see how this is working and how it has worked in one’s own life and to understand that it is not personal, that it is collective. Then the second step is to politically organize, and the third step is to take actions risking one’s life and liberty in the defense of self and others. This is how one restores their social and civil standing, their honor.

    https://www.bookmarksbookshop.co.uk/view/45353/Politics+Of+The+Mind%253A+Marxism+and+Mental+Distress

    Here on MIA we debate with white coats and with people who believe in psychotherapy and drugs. We should instead be taking actions to take down the mental health recovery system, and the middle-class family.

    https://www.amazon.com/Iain-Ferguson/e/B001HPLTUW

    “Hardly any of the ‘symptoms’ of psychological distress may correctly be seen as medical matters. The so-called psychiatric ‘disorders’ are nothing to do with faulty biology, nor indeed are they the outcome of individual moral weakness or other personal failing. They are the creation of the social world in which we live, and that world is structured by power.
    Social power may be defined as the means of obtaining security or advantage, and it will be exercised within any given society in a variety of forms: coercive (force), economic (money power) and ideological (the control of meaning). Power is the dynamic which keeps the social world in motion. It may be used for good or for ill.
    One cannot hope to understand the phenomena of psychological distress, nor begin to think what can be done about them, without an analysis of how power is distributed and exercised within society.”

    http://davidsmail.info/introfra.htm

    Saying that this is a Marxist approach, I think that means first of all recognizing that all human societies have been about class struggle.

    I think also this is about the normative power structures, Capitalism and the Middle-Class Family. The mental health / recovery system is the bully cop, the enforcer.

    And of course, I am a great admirer of Frantz Fanon.

    And why aren’t we here at MIA working to get people out of mental institutions, and even trying to lobby people to get off of drugs and to stop seeing therapists?

  • Stephen Gilbert, I don’t know where you live, but some areas of the US are more conformist than others. This goes way back and is usually tied to a religion of personal salvation seeking, and that was often operating alongside a system of slavery.

    But anyway, it is easier for people to admit to bogus personal defect than it is to indict and try to get reparations from abusers.

    And in all of this, the mental health system is a serious evil.

  • Not so, psychotherapy is by definition something based on changing the client, instead of fighting to redress injustice.

    So it is always true that the practice of psychotherapy is wrong.

    The minimum response to a psychotherapist should be the middle finger.

  • judybier, first of all, do not say therapy failed me. This did not happen, and I would never put myself into a position where one could say that that had happened. I am not a confessional pity seeker. I am a fighter, and just like in any other guerilla war, I protect and defend the privacy of my affairs.

    Psychotherapy is wrong because it is profiting off of the misery of others.

    And again, who is ‘not so bipolar’ or ‘not so autistic’ is not important, as not one should be taking advantage of people by asking then to disclose personal affairs.

    And again, depression, mania, autism, what ever, the answer is always the same, give that therapist the middle finger.

    And talking about the ‘clients state’ is just a way of putting the responsibility for the fact that they live in an unfair and abusive world back onto them. Again, the perfect remedy is the middle finger.

    We don’t need community psychotherapy centers, what we need is political organizing to punish abusers and obtain reparations for survivors, and to restore people’s social and civil standing, their honor.

    Psychotherapy and healing are just completely wrong headed approaches and should not be tolerated.

    It takes activism, a grassroots effort to refuse all psychotherapy, psychiatry, and recovery in all of their forms, and instead insist on and obtain penalties for perpetrators, reparations for survivors, and restoring of the social and civil standing of survivors.

    Steve Gilbert, I am glad that that time with that therapist went well for you, and based on what you say I can see why you value it.

    But there is a problem in that most people do not know that they should be extremely careful in what they disclose to a therapist, because that is how they transfer responsibility back onto the client.

    You may indeed have gained much from that therapist, but the reason for this is that they were not doing the things a psychotherapist does. This therapist had no need for a psychotherapy license, or for a shingle which said ‘psychotherapy’.

    We already have ‘Philosophical Councilors’, and that is completely open ended as to what it can be.

    But consider also, why do you need to go to someone’s office and pay them and confess to them. It is so very much like what religion does. If Western Religion were not such an abject failure, Freud would never have been able to get started.

    Political consciousness and political activism have to be the way. Work with groups of like minded and like interested persons, learn as you man the barricades and fight shoulder to shoulder. What gets people out of their heads is when they are taking risks to defend themselves and others.

    What terminates Uncle Tomism is simply the demonstrated ability to politically organize, and the willingness to take risks in defending ones self and others. This is what restores the public honor which the Mental Health System, the Recovery Movement, and Evangelical Religion are designed to take away.

    Bradford, rather than debating with White Coats, we need to have our own forum where we can plan and take actions, things which take down the mental health system, instead of giving it a forum by which to try and repackage itself.

    Judi from Canada, I am saddened to hear about what you have been through. Domestic violence and abuses are one of the most crippling things around. And then to hear that you have been disabled, greatly bothers me. And I can understand because I know of cases of domestic abuse where the legal system is not sufficiently protective and turns against the one demanding redress. Seems that judges and prosecutors also persecute those who appear to be out of compliance with the Self-Reliance Ethic. They are advancing Capitalism, Social Darwinims, and the Middle-Class Family. So the legal system turns into another round of violation and abuse.

    We need to make corrections to our legal system, and we need to make sure that our medical system does not itself turn into another round of abuse of survivors.

    I hope you have terminated all contact with the mental health system, with its drugs and with street drugs, and with any talk therapists, because such therapists will never really be on your side.

  • Remember, the Mental Health System and the Recovery Movement are rooted in the bogus sciences of Social Darwinism and Eugenics. These always work by destroying your honor, nullifying your biography and your personhood. They throw you into an untouchable cast.

    The only ways of restoring public honor are by demonstrating the ability to politically organize, and by demonstrating the willingness to take risks in the defense of self and others.

    Except for the last year of his life, Martin Luther King Jr. was misunderstanding Gandhi and making an unlimited pledge of non-violence. MLK was an Uncle Tom.

    MindFreedom has followed this. We must reject MindFreedom.

  • Dr. Breggin, Thank you for your article and for this new clarity about what these psychiatric chemicals really are.

    But what should we do about it? Myself, especially for those doctors who are giving these drugs to children, I want to see them prosecuted in the International Court for Crimes Against Humanity. But how do we get there?

    As I see it there are the following problems:

    1. Most neurotoxin prescriptions are being given out by psychologists and psychotherapists, not psychiatrists. These psychologists and psychotherapists want this prescription capability because it adds to their professional status, and to their fees.

    2. The vast majority of psychiatric medicine is being taken voluntarily. It seems to have the same appeals as do street drugs and alcohol.

    3. If someone is endorsing talk therapy, then they are also part of the same pattern of lies. They are saying that the distress a client may feel originates in and is solved by massaging their own thinking, not by the much harder effort of politically organizing and effecting political change. So if you say talk therapy could help, then prescription or street chemicals presumably could too. So could electro-shock and lobotomy. So could euthanasia.

    4. What I see on the ground is that they use these chemicals to manage the poor. They see any signs of agitation or anger as a malady to be corrected.

    5. Some posting here on MIA also seem to see it this way, fixing people in the name of ~~mental health~~.

    6. And then there are those who champion street drugs, like methamphetamine, LSD, and marijuana, and they seem to believe that a person is improved by these, rather than seeing that all these are is a tune out. They call them an ‘event’, not an addictive habit, but they don’t seem to realize is that that is still an escape, opening for them a door of non-engagement.

    The only things which restore someone’s public honor is a demonstrated ability to publicly organize, and a displayed willingness to take personal risks in acting to protect ones self and others.

    The mental health movement is rooted in the bogus sciences of social Darwinism and eugenics, and these work by destroying ones public honor.

    So we need to make some plans and take some actions. As I see it, you cannot be anti-psychiatry or anti-psychiatric neurotoxins unless you are also against talk therapy and against street drugs.

    https://www.marxists.org/history/usa/workers/black-panthers/1970/dope.htm

  • ^^^^^^ Agreed!

    And something I just sent to a friend in email which may be of interest:

    I have no objection to disability money being paid out. I think such payouts should be expanded in scope and quantity. We are in the latest stage of industrialization. But our politics is completely driven by scapgoating the poor, plus minorities and immigrants. We are dividing into a two tier society. Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, and the Recovery Movement are simply resurgences of the bogus sciences of Social Darwinism and Eugenics. If we expect our democracy to continue, then we absolutely have to move to Social Democracy.

    But I am very critical of disability identities. And generally I feel that access to disability payments is being used to coerce people who are already marginalized into accepting a disability identity. No one should be subjected to such coercion. And in my observation the disability identities are usually flimsy and more the product of abuse, injustice, and social marginalization. Accepting such an identity merely exonerates perpetrators.

    It will never change so long as people ask for pity. Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, The Recovery Movement, and Born Again Christianity are all based on pity seeking. Things will only change when people organize and start fighting back.

    There is one thing and one thing only which ended slavery in this country, the fact that 180,000 black men refused to be Uncle Tom’s, and instead trained with rifles and bayonets and served in federal uniform. If this had not been so, we would still be practicing slavery today.

  • Dr. Timimi, I am now reading your book edited with Rebecca Mallett, and Katherine Runswick-Cole
    Re-Thinking Autism: Diagnosis, Identity and Equality
    https://www.amazon.com/Re-Thinking-Autism-Diagnosis-Identity-Equality-ebook/dp/B01F2HV7D4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1515969324&sr=8-1&keywords=sami+timimi+autism

    Almost everything we are told about mental health and disabilities is philosophically defective at core, worthless rubbish. I thank you for working to correct this.

    And something I just sent to a friend in email which may be of interest:

    I have no objection to disability money being paid out. I think such payouts should be expanded in scope and quantity. We are in the latest stage of industrialization. But our politics is completely driven by scapgoating the poor, plus minorities and immigrants. We are dividing into a two tier society. Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, and the Recovery Movement are simply resurgences of the bogus sciences of Social Darwinism and Eugenics. If we expect our democracy to continue, then we absolutely have to move to Social Democracy.

    But I am very critical of disability identities. And generally I feel that access to disability payments is being used to coerce people who are already marginalized into accepting a disability identity. No one should be subjected to such coercion. And in my observation the disability identities are usually flimsy and more the product of abuse, injustice, and social marginalization. Accepting such an identity merely exonerates perpetrators.

    It will never change so long as people ask for pity. Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, The Recovery Movement, and Born Again Christianity are all based on pity seeking. Things will only change when people organize and start fighting back.

    There is one thing and one thing only which ended slavery in this country, the fact that 180,000 black men refused to be Uncle Tom’s, and instead trained with rifles and bayonets and served in federal uniform. If this had not been so, we would still be practicing slavery today.

  • Pat, I have worked to get all of the intoxicants out of my life. And along with this I consider Christianity, that Pie In The Sky, the Opiate of the Masses. The only ones which remain are sugar and caffeine, and I know that I have a problem and that each of these alone causes diabetes.

    This treatise, written decades ago, expresses my view about drugs:
    https://www.marxists.org/history/usa/workers/black-panthers/1970/dope.htm

    And something I just sent to a friend in email which may be of interest:

    I have no objection to disability money being paid out. I think such payouts should be expanded in scope and quantity. We are in the latest stage of industrialization. But our politics is completely driven by scapgoating the poor, plus minorities and immigrants. We are dividing into a two tier society. Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, and the Recovery Movement are simply resurgences of the bogus sciences of Social Darwinism and Eugenics. If we expect our democracy to continue, then we absolutely have to move to Social Democracy.

    But I am very critical of disability identities. And generally I feel that access to disability payments is being used to coerce people who are already marginalized into accepting a disability identity. No one should be subjected to such coercion. And in my observation the disability identities are usually flimsy and more the product of abuse, injustice, and social marginalization. Accepting such an identity merely exonerates perpetrators.

    It will never change so long as people ask for pity. Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, The Recovery Movement, and Born Again Christianity are all based on pity seeking. Things will only change when people organize and start fighting back.

    There is one thing and one thing only which ended slavery in this country, the fact that 180,000 black men refused to be Uncle Tom’s, and instead trained with rifles and bayonets and served in federal uniform. If this had not been so, we would still be practicing slavery today.

  • Daniel Smith, if I wanted your well wishing I would have asked for it. I don’t.

    The last thing we need are people who want to use drugs and go off and contemplate their navels, or try and claim that drugs gives them some privileged POV.

    This treatise, written decades ago, expresses my view about drugs:
    https://www.marxists.org/history/usa/workers/black-panthers/1970/dope.htm

    Something I just sent to a friend in email which may be of interest:

    I have no objection to disability money being paid out. I think such payouts should be expanded in scope and quantity. We are in the latest stage of industrialization. But our politics is completely driven by scapgoating the poor, plus minorities and immigrants. We are dividing into a two tier society. Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, and the Recovery Movement are simply resurgences of the bogus sciences of Social Darwinism and Eugenics. If we expect our democracy to continue, then we absolutely have to move to Social Democracy.

    But I am very critical of disability identities. And generally I feel that access to disability payments is being used to coerce people who are already marginalized into accepting a disability identity. No one should be subjected to such coercion. And in my observation the disability identities are usually flimsy and more the product of abuse, injustice, and social marginalization. Accepting such an identity merely exonerates perpetrators.

    It will never change so long as people ask for pity. Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, The Recovery Movement, and Born Again Christianity are all based on pity seeking. Things will only change when people organize and start fighting back.

    There is one thing and one thing only which ended slavery in this country, the fact that 180,000 black men refused to be Uncle Tom’s, and instead trained with rifles and bayonets and served in federal uniform. If this had not been so, we would still be practicing slavery today.

  • Of course this is just the modern version of lobotomy. So we must fight this and demonstrate proficient use of ANY AND ALL AVAILABLE MEANS! Either we act, or they carve on our brains.

    Something I just sent to a friend in email which may be of interest:

    I have no objection to disability money being paid out. I think such payouts should be expanded in scope and quantity. We are in the latest stage of industrialization. But our politics is completely driven by scapgoating the poor, plus minorities and immigrants. We are dividing into a two tier society. Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, and the Recovery Movement are simply resurgences of the bogus sciences of Social Darwinism and Eugenics. If we expect our democracy to continue, then we absolutely have to move to Social Democracy.

    But I am very critical of disability identities. And generally I feel that access to disability payments is being used to coerce people who are already marginalized into accepting a disability identity. No one should be subjected to such coercion. And in my observation the disability identities are usually flimsy and more the product of abuse, injustice, and social marginalization. Accepting such an identity merely exonerates perpetrators.

    It will never change so long as people ask for pity. Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, The Recovery Movement, and Born Again Christianity are all based on pity seeking. Things will only change when people organize and start fighting back.

    There is one thing and one thing only which ended slavery in this country, the fact that 180,000 black men refused to be Uncle Tom’s, and instead trained with rifles and bayonets and served in federal uniform. If this had not been so, we would still be practicing slavery today.

  • Vesper, certainly Psychiatry, Psychoanalysis, Psychotherapy, and the Recovery Movement, are horrid developments and we should oppose or abolish them. If you are hearing negative things from any of these sourced, terminate that connection. If you have any kind of a connection to any of these sources, terminate that connection.

    I want to point out though that one of the original reasons for the popularity of Freud and Psychoanalysis is that as opposed to religion, it seemed to accept sexuality and a more animal sourced view of humanity. So people took to it.

    Now today the world is very different. But I’m going to refrain from making any further comment on your thesis.

    As Psychoanalysis was more open to human sexuality than religion was, it also is predicated on religion’s theory of Original Sin, some innate defect.

    And so today, Psychiatry, Psychoanalysis, Psychotherapy, and the Recovery Movement are all designed to teach passivity and self loathing in the face of an unjust and abusive world. We need to act to put a stop to these things as best we can. Can’t really outlaw voluntary stupidity, but there are still things which can be done.

    A Work In Progress
    https://sites.google.com/site/stompingthecockroach/

  • Judy, what you say makes tremendous sense, but unfortunately because the therapist is asking you to make personal disclosures when they have done nothing to prove that they are really on your side, it is even worse than what you describe.

    “The Original Sin, is denying God…not therapists. I’d never “submit” to a therapist. If a therapist requires “submission”…a client should leave that person’s care, immediately.”

    The therapist is in fact insisting that you submit. For one thing, anything you say to the therapist could be repeated directly to law enforcement. For another thing, the therapist is a therapist because they are committed to the proposition that the solution to problems lies within you.

    Imagine this, a victim goes to a police station to report that they were just raped. What she hears is, “You came to the right place. We have therapists on duty around the clock to help people just like yourself learn that the remedy is inside of yourself and that you don’t need to go through life being angry and a trouble maker, and that you just need to be more careful about how you dress and about situations. We don’t want you to be angry.”

    That is in fact how it used to be done. Well in the Psychotherapist’s Office it is still being done that way. Though many will be more careful about how they phrase it.

    “The practice of Psychotherapy is wrong because it is profiting off of other people’s misery.”
    https://www.amazon.com/Against-Therapy-J-Moussaieff-Masson/dp/1567510221/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1515629126&sr=1-1&keywords=jeffrey+masson+against+therapy

    A Work In Progress
    https://sites.google.com/site/stompingthecockroach/

  • Daniel, you are missing something big time. I have been around people who use drugs and swear by them for my entire life.

    You judge the tree by the fruit it bears. That idea that you have to use drugs to see this fruit is an absurdity. You could try to argue for anything if you allow such fallacy.

    People who use drugs are not better at vanquishing foes than people who do not use them.

    Vanquishing foes is how survivors restore their honor, so that they can again have a biography again.

    So lets say I am helping to write the briefs for a civil suit for a law suit against a psychotherapist. Do I want the guy who uses drugs and believes in them on my team? No way. I want the guy who is committed to staying clean and intense and kicking ass.

    So professional process servers say that divorce cases are the most dangerous. Well once we can get people to start suing their parents, that will be even more dangerous. Do I want the druggie as my backup? Hell no, I want the guy who is committed to feeling his feelings and staying straight.

    And how about capturing a Psychiatrist who has jumped bail? The druggie as my backup? No, the guy who is 100% committed to staying straight.

    And how about if I am on the barricades? The druggie who talks and talks like oldhead? No, I want the guy at my side to be the guy who stays straight, because I know that he will be more effective.

    Right now it is just words, but soon it should be going to lawyers, and we need ones who are straight at all times and committed to kicking ass.

    I helped a DA get a conviction on a Pentecostal daughter molester. I am glad that she did not use drugs. But the defendant did.

  • But Steve that is of course the lie. For one thing it is very unlikely that the therapist has any real solidarity with the client. Most of the time the therapist is quite well off, as well as educated and articulate. A highly marginalized client will usually have none of this.

    And then for people who are highly marginalized the answer should be becoming a revolutionary. Being an outside they have no stake in the present order. Very different if they should have the misfortune of discussing their affairs with a therapist. Said therapist is only going to teach them how to become an Uncle Tom. And the end result is that the client is the one who is wrong, because of their refusal to submit and refusal to live the lies.

    Here is a fictionalized account of revolutionary consciousness raising:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1PmnZ9hejw&feature=youtu.be&t=24m42s

    A Psychotherapist is never going to do this, promote conflict and actions to restore one’s social and civil standing by vanquishing foes. No, the therapist collaborates with abusers and supports them, because he is one of them.

    We need to start teaching people to defend themselves against therapists, and especially children.

    Most of the time the marginalization starts in the middle-class family, because it exists only to abuse and exploit children, and this is because the middle-class lives in Bad Faith:
    http://www.iep.utm.edu/sartre-ex/#SH4b

    People need to learn and change things about their lives by working with comrades, shoulder to shoulder, and by achieving victories, because this is the only way one restores their social and civil standing, their honor.

    I did much to restore my honor by helping to get a Pentecostal daughter molester convicted and sentenced. But now I need to do more, work with comrades, instead of the DA.

  • But this problem is also built into the core of Psychotherapy. The therapist has an agenda, otherwise they could not possibly be a therapist unless they went along with it. The client must submit to the world the way it is, and renounce any possibility of striking back against violators in any way. The client must accept that their problems are primarily the result of their own errors in living, Original Sin.

    A Work In Progress
    https://sites.google.com/site/stompingthecockroach/

  • Missy and Skylar, you should have no need to ask for acceptance. That is the door way by which Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, and the Recovery Movement prey upon people.

    We must organize and not worry about acceptance, but instead just make sure we prevail against any and all who try to get in our ways.

  • jclaude,
    Psychiatry and Psychotherapy exist because the practitioners don’t want to feel their own pain. They find that they can claim an adult identity just by proselytizing for their own denial systems.

    “The practice of psychotherapy is wrong because it is profiting from other people’s misery.”
    https://www.amazon.com/Against-Therapy-J-Moussaieff-Masson/dp/1567510221/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1515618574&sr=1-4

    I want to see Psychiatrists prosecuted for Crimes Against Humanity.

    And for those who are giving mind altering drugs to children, they should receive the ultimate sentence.

    And for those who serve as Fix-My-Kid doctors, a standard feature of the middle-class family, they are violating mandatory reporting, a felony.

    I want to organize street level demonstrations to encourage affidavits and lawsuits against Psychiatrists and Psychotherapists, and I want Psychotherapists to be delicensed, as those licenses protect the therapists and perpetrators, not the clients.

    And I want to terminate all gov’t run Recovery Programs, like those in prisons and those run by county public health departments, and the use of these by the courts.

    And I want to teach children to invoke the power of citizens arrest when ever faced with a psychiatrist or psychotherapist, and give them a card with a number to call for adults who will immediately come to the site to back them up. Some activists have already done something like this for school corporal punishment.

    A work in progress:
    https://sites.google.com/site/stompingthecockroach/

  • Dr. Timimi, I want to thank you for your book, “The Myth of Autism”.

    My own view is that such myths persist because most of the time they are being applied to children, and children usually are not prepared to do the things they would have to in order to defend themselves against adults. Its that and because people are attracted to denial of their own experience, and so such a myth provides them a way of exonerating perpetrators.

    Most of the time these disability labels amount to pity seeking, and hence they are a severe trap.

  • No, the whole profession is devoted to making people believe that THEY HAVE A PROBLEM, and to renounce seeking redress in any form.

    You do not want, “acceptance” from such, or from anyone else who is not a proven comrade in efforts to obtain redress.

  • LittleTurtle, no you do not have any psychological problem. You have just lived in a very manipulative world. That you have been convinced that you have a ~~~psychological problem~~~ is but one of the more extreme manifestations of this.

    Finding what caused these breakdowns may take time and it will be hard, but you have to do it.

  • Well, I encourage you to keep on fighting. The mental heath and recovery system will always try to make you personalize and internalize problems, rather than fight to hold abusers responsible, and rather than fighting against the societal injustices upon which our society is built.

    To make real progress though, we are going to have to organize. Mental health and recovery stand in the way of this.

  • Why would we ever want anything like this? Social Recovery, all that means is Social Conformity.

    Depression and psychosis, sometimes the unresolved issues in someones life just get the better of them. The last thing they need tough are the denial systems of therapy or recovery. They need to work for justice, and to do that they have to become politically conscious.

    We need to organize and oppose this Social Recovery.

  • Then we all must act against Psychiatry, Psychotherapy and the Recovery Movement.

    Here on this forum there is a lot of debate, and many of its ‘authors’ are perpetrators trying to present themselves as other wise. We must make a new forum and agree on some sorts of actions on the ground, and then carry these out.

  • Missy and Skylar, I like your article and what you are saying. But I still have to take exception to it. It sounds like you are pleading for acceptance.

    Yes, Psychiatry harms people in a myriad of ways. Anytime anyone discloses anything of their personal life to a psychotherapists, they are inviting denigration, as that therapist will always turn your experience of injustice into a medical problem and a self improvement project.

    So we must never present ourselves as pleading for acceptance, really pleading for pity. Rather, we must organize and present ourselves AS A SELF DEFENDING COHORT, people who it would be very unwise to mess with.

  • Dahlia, I am sorry you had that experience, but these things do happen. I hope that you can remove yourself from all psychiatric facilities, throw away all medication, and never see any psychotherapists.

    Please, instead get involved in efforts to eradicate Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, and the Recovery Movement, and in efforts to hold parents and other perpetrators responsible.

  • Oldhead, It’s not too many decades ago that Germany got itself handed a new constitution. One of the provisions is the enforcement of Crimes Against Humanity in the International Court. Even NGO’s can make indictments, and they don’t expire. Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush, each indicted for war crimes, and this does not ever expire. Won’t be seeing them at Oktober Fest anytime soon.

    It was a Spanish judge who indicted Pinochet, and in the UK they debated whether or not they could arrest Benedict the 16th for his role in covering up child sexual molestation when he was Archbishop for Munich.

    We should try Germany first.

    But also, we should be protesting at County Hospitals, because that is where poor people are kept on drugs.

    And we should be protesting at some suburban Psychotherapist Offices, because that is where the Fix My Kid doctors work, and some of these still advertise on MIA.

    Very few would be able to stand up to vigorous street protests, with large signs and names and pictures.

    Oldhead, your so called anti-psychiatry is just grumblings.

    It is time instead for people who want to take action. Gandhi’s satyagraha means applying pressure. It is not pacifism. The practitioners take the same sorts of risks as do armed guerillas.

  • What this sounds like is the rise of the Fix My Kid Autism doctors, promoting the untrue idea that there is something known as austism, and getting parents to send their kids to being lab rats.

    Neurotribes, a book with much wrong, but still some right, by Steve Silberman.

    So instead of treating the whole person, HOW ABOUT STAYING AWAY FROM PEOPLE AND LEAVING THEM ALONE.

    If you folks were doing these sorts of things without a license, then I’d just dial 911 and have you arrested.

    The license is the problem. We must not continue to allow our government to issue such licenses.

  • Politics is what decides whether or not the parents of a rambunctious or non-confirming child can take him to a fix-my-kid doctor, or whether that would entail severe legal consequences for both the parents and the doctor.

    Politics is what decides whether we send people with legitimate grievances to doctors, or to attorney’s who can help restore their rights and social and civil standing.

    When one takes to the therapist’s office, its because they have already given up. That therapist’s couch is just like a confessional. One is seeking absolution, not justice.

  • Remember, in Nuremberg they said they were following orders. Eichmann would say that he was following the law.

    Personally I would be more than happy to eradicate the entire mental health system all by myself. But it is better if we do it through the International Court.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_principles#The_principles

    The most important thing is that we stop debating and stop using things like drugs, therapy, and recovery to tune out, and instead find places to act, and then do so.

    Psychotherapists can already be sued. Parents can be sued. Local governments run hospitals and recovery programs. They can be pressured into stopping this.

  • LittleTurtle, the issue is your social and civil standing. If you have been marginalized into the mental health system, then your social and civil standing have been seriously harmed.

    No one ever restores their social and civil standing unless they demonstrate that they are willing to strike out and hold others accountable. Until we each do that, we are still living by begging for pity, living as Uncle Tom’s.

    Trying to live without taking offensive actions is to live in the very small social space which the abusers have boxed you into.

    Live and Let Live is a denial system. Even Gandhi always worked to produce intense social conflict, conflict of a sort which forces the other side into violence. Gandhi was absolutely never a pacifist.

    MLK was not able to understand Gandhi, except maybe by the last year of his life. That was the only time when he was worth listening to.

    As Cornell West never tires of explaining, for Gandhi non-violence was a tactic not a strategy. He spoke the way he did with an eye to the broader situation and the kind of independence he wanted to bring about. He called for non-violence, always knowing that he was escalating the tensions in a potentially very violent situation. He knew, that given the word, the Sikhs in the North could have sent the last of the dismembered remains of the British floating down the rivers within 48 hours.

    The Mental Health system is a resurgence of Social Darwinism and Eugenics. Though these are bogus sciences, if you follow MindFreedom and make an unlimited pledge of non-violence and stupidity, then you are making it look as though these bogus doctrines are legitimate.

    There is no issue of mental health or of innate moral defect. Rather the issue is honor and social civil standing. And this is what the mental health system and the middle-class family destroy.

  • ^^^ Shouldn’t. But it shouldn’t be live and let live either, as that is just a denial system. What it needs to be is disruption and breaking down the system. Get white coats and abuser parents arrested. Make them pay by civil suits. And just make it impossible for them to function by street actions.

    Make people understand that they are not wrong or defective, its just that they’ve been letting people abuse them. Most of the time this will have started as they were children.

    Breaking the machine which our society is, is very hard labor. But it is some of the most productive labor that any of us could ever be involved in.

    Right now, somewhere near you, a parent is driving their child to the doctor, because the parent finds the child to be an embarrassment and feels that they need more moral authority over the child, and just to give themselves a reason for existing.

    We need to be the ones who will find ways to crack into that situation and make some people extremely sorry.

    I cut my teeth by helping to incarcerate a man who was sexually molesting his 3 daughters, and with his church standing behind him, and trying to use psychotherapy to break the daughters down. It was a rare opportunity, a Burning Bush. I knew I must not pass it up, so I jumped in and worked long and hard.

    Now I want to put some psychotherapists and psychiatrists out of business.

    Politics is not just wasting time. Part of the problem with people who submit to Psychotherapy is that they don’t understand this. They don’t understand that Psychotherapy is extremely political, and in the very worst sort of a way.

  • Good insight Lawrence, it is all about denying people adulthood.

    But so also is psychotherapy, it continues to make people into basket cases by infantilizing them.

    The alternative is to fight back, to find ways to intercede and to punish perpetrators. Political and legal action, as well as just old fashioned street level activism.

    We need to be putting white coats out of business, and we need to be punishing some parents. We need to get some laws changed, and we need to engage in disruptive street demonstrations.

  • You have nothing wrong with you littleturtle, its just that you have lived in a screwy world where people are constantly at risk of attack, and two of the most common sources are the middle-class family and the mental health system, and also religion.

    As far as turning for help, I don’t think that is safe. Most such help is always going to be 100% malicious.

    Instead, we need to find comrades. These are people that are fighting back, and they will have a track record of scoring victories.

    So it should be lawsuits, street protests, campaigns to put therapists and psychiatrists out of business, and more.

    And of course there need to be political goals too. Everyone wants to do well. But our society makes the poor into scapegoats. We need to reverse this with a complete cradle to grave welfare state. If someone is without, then we need to care for them without any stigma. Some have called for Universal Basic Income. Help is okay, so long as it is not pity based or causing stigma. But today that is extremely rare. If someone is offering help, but they do not carry the scars of fighting for change, then such help is always going to be toxic, because they are just using it to diminish you, showing you pity, to make themselves feel good, and interpreting that you are the culpable party in your own distress. Must always be extremely careful in such situations.

  • No herbs for me oldhead. And who is this we? That is a very good question. Seems that there is no more anti-psychiatry movement, just a bunch of Psychotherapists and Recoveryists trying to promote themselves and their only very slightly different version of the same thing.

    So the ‘we’ starts when people start taking action. Once you realize that Psychiatry and Psychotherapy are the systematic persecution of both children and adults, and that this is not just some minor error, but that it is war, then you start looking for places to attack.

    So oldhead, if you want to seek nirvana via psychedelic drugs, and you really believe that this is the best response, absolutely, it will be better if you stay away.

    I for one want to go after:

    1. Government run mental health, like in County Hospitals.

    2. Government run Recovery Programs, like through the prison system and county public health

    3. Government licensing of Psychotherapists, and focus on private practice psychotherapists, the sorts that offer a fix-my-kid service.

    Try and put people out of business, try to get lawsuits going, try to get criminal prosecutions, and follow the way of virtually every other industrialized nation and prohibit disinheritance, as not having done this is one of the major reasons for the present sorry state of affairs.

  • Ron Unger wrote:

    “Life is complex, and while doing forestry work really helped out at one point in my life, there was another point in my life where I was really stuck … ”

    Again, turning the issues back onto the client. Psychotherapy works like religion. It is reactionary. We should not outlaw it between consenting adults, but we should delicense it.

    And fortunately there are others who have shaped out society by selecting instead political consciousness raising and political action, instead of Psychotherapy.

  • We should not be trying to outlaw Psychotherapy, as mostly it is just talk. But what we should be doing is prohibiting our government from licensing it.

    And then of course when it is being done to a juvenile, not currently be represented by an attorney in court, that that therapist is a hired accomplice to the parents. So as anyone in such a situation could easily be sued or prosecuted, so should that therapist. And mandatory reporting should be enforced as intended. I was supposed to prevent such things, parents being able to hire doctors to aid in child abuse. So it should be enforced. It now applies to anyone who regularly works with children. Failure to report is a felony.

  • Eradicate the Mental Health System.

    Prosecute the practitioners for Crimes Against Humanity.

    “Crimes against humanity are certain acts that are deliberately committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack or individual attack directed against any civilian or an identifiable part of a civilian population.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_executions

  • Slavery is this world we live in. Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, and the Recovery Movement are some of its enforcers, but they are not the origin.

    The origin is the middle-class family, because people have children purely in order to sentimentalize them and use them, and so that they don’t have to deal with their own issues.

    Mental Health and Recovery come into play when someone is seen to be out of compliance with the standards of the middle-class family.

  • I saw a man lying down on the asphalt blocking a lane of traffic on a major boulevard. Soon police arrived. The man seemed to be trying to preach.

    Police kept shouting orders at him, but they would not put the cuffs on him or try to restrain him.

    He kept trying to preach. They got more officers to shout orders at him in another language. He seemed unresponsive, still trying to preach. So when he approached, standing on the other side of a patrol car, they tazered him. They would tazer him a couple of times, when they could have just put the cuffs on him. This really bothered me.

    Police approached me and wanted me to fill out a witness statement. I just turned my back and walked away from them.

    People need to talk and to be heard. But the last person they should talk to is any kind of a therapist. The therapist is just a cop with no badge or uniform.

    Political consciousness and political action, this is the way. And Therapy, Psychiatry, and Recovery are the enemy of such.

  • Talk to people? Once you realize that psychotherapy is a game of abuse, you learn only to talk to comrades, not sympathy givers, because that sympathy is just pity.

    And Mary Newton, the way to handle a naked man in the super market parking lot is by political consciousness raising and political activism.

    I went to a church which stays open late. A man approached me outside and explained about how his landlord had just run him out. I felt bad that someone has to live in such a non-standard and non-due process environment. The man told me that he was on disability and had a heart condition. He wanted money for a motel. I was not going to supply it. And it was already late on a warm summer night. He could sleep anywhere, not even worth it to go where he was talking about.

    But he said, “I have a *heart condition*, if I don’t eat *I could die*.”

    I showed him where the pay phone was and told him that if he got into any trouble he could call 911.

    He said, “Making a false 911 call is a *FELONY*!”

    So I realized that this musth be how our disability system works, just like our public assistance system does, to placate people, to make them powerless.

    What I wanted to say to the man was, “Follow me. You will be sheltered and fed, and you will be trained and armed, to fight in the revolution.”

    But I had no such training camp and no such army. But this is what is needed.

    So called crazy people are survivors of injustice. Political consciousness means finding the nature of the injustice and dealing with it. Capitalism is unjust. The middle-class family is unjust, as are lots of other things. But everyone wants to do well, if they are given any kind of a decent chance.

    If a man is talking to himself or saying crazy sounding things, the most simple interpretation is that he is very angry, and for very good reason.

    The last person he should talk to is a Psychotherapist because these people are not comrades, they are secondary abusers. Just flip them off if you encounter them.

  • If we are going to fight back against Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, and the Recovery Movement, we need Women and Men of Action, not people who want healing and therapy, and altered states of consciousness achieved via chemicals. Such persons are useless at best.

    We need people who are willing to jump into the middle of situations and instigate conflict. Otherwise they don’t deserve to be considered as Resistance.

  • Some people have a huge need to have children and then find in them Original Sin. Driving them to doctors is one of the ways they do this. Some doctors need to be fooled.

    But then there are other doctors who do not need to be fooled. Their business is the finding of deficiencies in children on behalf of their parents.

    Mandatory Reporting should have put an end to this, but it hasn’t yet.

  • Oldhead wrote, “I can see from this comments section that it’s really impossible to discuss psychedelics with those who haven’t experienced them, as there’s nothing in the experience of most people to even compare them to.”

    Oldhead, you are wrong. The Zen teacher Alan Watts used to talk about his pertaining to LSD all the time. It is a one upsmanship game. First it is that you have to had taken LSD to know. Then it is you have to had taken more than some does threshold or you don’t really know.

    Well, there are people who believe that their consciousness is raised by booring a hole in the top of their skull. It could be anything, putting out an eye, cutting of an arm.

    Simple fact is, people who have learned deep meditation skills have more control over their experiences than do people who depend on drugs.

    I know there are people who swear by drugs, or seem to have changed from just one LSD experience, like the cartoonist Robert Crumb. They can believe that if they want. But the fact is that the drug never gave them anything which was not otherwise available.

    And then once you say that drugs help with healing, you are compounding the lie that survivors are in especial need of healing. And that lie is only a way to marginalize them until they are ready to engage in denial.

    You promote drugs, you promote psychiatric medications, and you promote involuntary medication. You feed the whole delusion that some people need to be fixed.

  • And Maddestmike, this is why I say we should delicense it. Most of its potential for harm is in this licensing.

    And Run Unger, Talk Therapy is not best for everyone. But in fact, it does not offer anything to anyone, because all it does is turn the blame back onto the client. Many go along with this, because this is what they already think.

    1. On children, not currently being represented by an attorney in court, this should be outlawed.

    2. Otherwise it should be delicensed, so it is just like faith-healing, fortune telling etc. And I think the UU churches should show more smarts in what sorts of presentations they allow.

    Getting grounded, prayer, meditation, communing with nature, physical work, is always good, not because of healing. That is a fallacy. It is good because that helps you prepare to take legal and political action, and to find common cause with others.

    https://sites.google.com/site/stompingthecockroach/

  • Ron Unger wrote,

    “I guess my perspective is that we do best when we are open to seeing there may be a problem within ourselves (unless we happen to be perfect?)…”

    Well yes, this is what psychotherapists do, take people who would not even be in their office unless they were in one way or another already being marginalized and taking the blame upon themselves, and trying to convince them that they themselves are the source of the problem. And what is the basis for this? Just like Ron explained, “unless we happen to be perfect”; it is based on the religious doctrine of Original Sin.

    And doing it with the weight of a government license behind them. Profiting off of other people’s misery, people who already are hyper self-conscious and self-blaming, and marginalized and vulnerable, and offering them absolutely nothing whatsoever.

    Psychotherapy is simply a con game to take advantage of people who are already vulnerable.

  • Steve, Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, and the Recovery Movement are indeed symptom control mechanisms. And yes, they do have to be that, because the premise is that the client has a problem, not that there will be any efforts to redress the injustices of this world.

    So parents can send their children to doctors to have them fixed, when really it is those parents who should be incarcerated.

    Everyone wants to do well. When they are not able to, then something is wrong, wrong with the world they live in, some type of injustice.

    But Psychiatry and Psychotherapy and the Recovery Movement are based on the religious concept of Original Sin. They turn it back on the survivor.

    1. Eradicate Psychiatry, and for those who drug children, Crimes Against Humanity Prosecution.

    2. Prohibit the government from licensing Psychotherapy, as this is what makes it so harmful to our society. Can’t really outlaw it, just like we can’t outlaw stupidity, but we can prevent licenses from being issued.

    3. Discredit the Recovery Movement, and do not tolerate it. I was able to get one site which hosted Recovery Programs evicted, and it no longer exists. Find legal ways to refuse to hire people involved in Recovery Programs, because their people are just completely irresponsible. One Recovery Program which raised money locally I was able to get run out of town.

    Then fight for justice. Like other industrialized nations prohibit disinheritance, as this is what is silencing survivors. When you see parents using doctors to stigmatize their child, that must be handled in court. Enforce mandatory reporting as written and intended. That right there would put much or Psychotherapy out of business. And then we survivors need to start our own Foster Care program, influenced by Israeli Kibutzes.

    Fight for justice, and discard this idea of healing, or using drugs to reach altered states of consciousness.

    Radically increase the number of lawsuits filed against Psychotherapists.

  • ” far-reaching implications that will transform mental health care and our view of the human psyche”

    No, that would not be an incredible development because it is total bullshit. Some people believe drugs are good for people. It is hard to convince them otherwise.

    But for someone to be trying to say that behind a medical license, that person has to be put out of action.

  • Oldhead, are you replying to me?

    Are you again taking the view that drugs have some benefit? If you do that, besides simply being a partisan for a reckless view, you are then also leading people to the inescapable conclusion that there must be some efficacy to psychiatric drugs.

    Spiritual advancement does not depend on drugs.

    It is you Oldhead who speak from ignorance and seem to be an example of the fallacy of drugs.

  • Stan, very sorry to hear about the life and death of your son.

    Anyone who is being convinced that they have something wrong with them is at risk of premature death, and even suicide. If not prescription medications, it will be street drugs and alcohol.

    Saddle Back Church Founder Rick Warren said after his 27yo son Matthew shot himself in the head, that Matthew had had the best Psychiatrists, Psychotherapists, and Prayer Warriors in the world.

    We must get these drugs off the market and eradicate psychiatry and incarcerate the perpetrators.

    Psychotherapy, being just talk, and between consenting adults, we cannot really outlaw. But we should not be allowing our government to license it, as this is what gives it its life destroying effect.

    The Recovery Movement is a con. We need to discredit it and anything which promotes the idea of Recovery from supposed mental illness or emotional disorders.

    Political consciousness raising and political action are the ways we must go.

    a work in progress
    https://sites.google.com/site/stompingthecockroach/

  • Once someone goes along with the idea that drugs cure ‘mental illness’ and ‘disorders’, then they are always going to be approaching life from an escapist perspective.

    Those distributing or promoting unlawful drugs for these uses should be handcuffed, jailed and prosecuted.

    On this forum we have listened now to people promoting MDMA, LSD, Methamphetamine, and Marijuana for their supposed healing benefits.

    We have also listened to people promoting prescription psychiatric medications for recreational use, these having some supposed benefit. The author declined to give specific info as to how her group of people were getting their drugs. Again though, the remedy to a situation like this is obvious.

    Regulating the uses of drugs and alcohol will always be very difficult. And Prohibition did not work. But this does not mean that we should be promoting the same kinds of fallacies which already operate among users. The idea that the drugs the doctor prescribes are good for you and will cure your ‘mental illness’, is as ridiculous as the idea that street drugs will cure such illness, or are in some other way good for you.

    This is really disturbing, this Jamie Lowe really believes in mental illness, and in the need for drugs. That is a serious abuse that people were able to convince her of this.
    https://www.democracynow.org/2017/12/28/lithium_love_and_losing_my_mind#transcript

    Back before the 1950’s, homosexuals tended to believe that they were defective. And so they believed in things like Recovery, Psychotherapy, and Psychiatry.

    Then when the Mattachine Society and the Daughters of Bilitis started having meetings, homosexuals came just to bask in the acceptance, and see that there were other people just like them, and that they did not see themselves as defective. From that came legal and political activism.

    Well today it seems that it is the scapegoats of the middle-class family who see themselves as defective, and fall prey to Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, Recovery, and prescription and street drugs. Seeing themselves as defective they go along with this. And mostly it seems to be about the ‘self-reliance ethic’, a completely bogus over coding.

    So the remedy is political consciousness raising, and legal and political action, but never Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, Recovery, or Drugs.

    https://sites.google.com/site/stompingthecockroach/

  • MDMA and Street Drugs and Prescription Drugs and Talk Therapy cannot treat PTSD because their is no such thing. There is no disorder, just as there is no such thing as mental illness.

    People may well be experiencing stress and danger, and may take a long time to work through such. But there is no “disorder”.

    Saying that MDMA or anything else fixes it is very dangerous.

    People may benefit from supportive environments, but not Talk Therapy or Psychotherapy or anything else pitched at fixing people.

  • truth793810, when it comes from a therapist, sympathy and empathy are both just pity. The therapist did not hang up their shingle because they want to redress wrongs. Their shingle says that their role is to convince survivors that they should learn to live in an unjust world without complaint.

    FeelingDiscouraged, if someone has been raped, then the first thing that they need to know is that that is not an isolated rape. Usually, unless it is someone else’s mother, wife, or daughter, then there still most always is no penalty for rape. You might as well say there is no crime.

    If someone has been raped, their social and civil standing have been trashed because their biography has been nullified. If they try to tell anyone what happened, these persons will not side with them, they will offer pity and tell them that they just have to learn to live without justice. This is the best response they will get.

    So the last thing they need is some therapist telling them about healing. That is just more abuse, what is generally called ‘second rape’, because the party lecturing to them does not understand the severity of it and how it nullifies their person hood.

    So a therapist is just a second rapist. Rather, what is needed is justice, avenging the rape, as a civilized society does.

    Do you think Kings and Presidents cared that much about their subjects that they outlawed rape, robbery and murder in order to protect them?

    Of course not, they outlawed such things because otherwise people would take their own vengeance, and then the government would have zero credibility or power.

    So when a rape victim sees that no one stands with her and therapists lecture to her about healing, then she should know that it is the society and the government itself who are the real rapists.

    And when it comes to a child standing up to the testimony of adults, then it is always like this, it is the government who prevents redress and tries to force victims to turn into Uncle Tom’s.

    And when such children grow into adults, they can know that they will always be getting lectures about healing, but very very few people will want to stop the ongoing abuses.

    https://sites.google.com/site/stompingthecockroach/

  • Lawrence, obviously Freud said and wrote different things at different times. And I know that in the US Freudianism quickly gave way to ego therapy. But nevertheless, the most important thing about Freud is that in his ‘Interpretation of Dreams’, he backstabbed his early patients, the 16 women hysterics. Whereas he had taken the childhood sexual molestations they described at face value, wanting to restore his own professional standing, he recanted. He came out with his ideas about infantile sexual desires and fantasies. So from that moment onwards,psychoanalysis and psychotherapy have been about the quest to find Original Sin in the sufferer. They may not call this ~~mental illness~~, but it is actually the very reason that the concept of mental illness caries so much weight.

    Now today, because of laws about mandatory reporting, something the therapists in private practice seem to have little understanding of, but those in public practice do understand; a therapist is not going to tell their client that they are fantasying, not anymore. But they still will dismiss the significance of the report because their whole practice is based on convincing clients that they should not seek redress for past wrongs and injustices. But that somehow they should make learning to live in an unjust without complaint into a self improvement project. The therapist is continuing what the parents did.

    The client is already someone who has had a hard time making their way in the world. They are injured. They feel that they need to seek approval. And this is where the licensed therapist really takes advantage of them.

    The client’s painful and difficult experiences show them that our world is extremely unfair and that many types of abuse are entirely socially sanctioned. But the therapist is never going to be a path to any other type of experience. Rather, the therapist is just an agent of lies and denial.

    To find something other, one would have to team up with radicals. And if the client is to really understand their own hard experiences they are going to have to team up with radicals. But the client’s problem, more often than not, is that they are still trying to live up to the standards and expectations of their parents. Though the therapist might not immediately look like it, not to one without much experience with therapists, the therapist completely supports the parents and the lies and denial of our society. This is why they are a therapist.

    A work in progress:
    https://sites.google.com/site/stompingthecockroach/

  • Once again, making light of the destroyed social and civil standing which someone is having to endure, before they should ever have the misfortune of going anywhere near a psychotherapist. And talking about “mental health”, meaning that the survivors present state could be the result of something other than “mental health”. Turning their experience of something being wrong, into a way of making them believe that the problem lies within themselves.

    And we know from all the examples of suicides of people who have been in psychotherapy that coming to believe this fallacy can be fatal.

    The psychotherapist is a psychotherapist because they do not want to face the injustices which have shaped their own lives. And facing these injustices would not just be something in the abstract, it would mean actually trying to do something about them. This is where the therapist becomes the enemy of all who are trying to make sense of their experiences and who are trying to do something about the injustices. The psychotherapist is able to con people into disclosing their personal affairs, when all that therapist is ever going to do turn it back against the sufferer.

    Yes, adults are able to consent to psychotherapy sessions, but this does not mean that our government can be licensing it. By licensing it they are giving the therapists a normative authority which makes them potentially dangerous in legal proceedings. And also, people are taken in by therapists. Channelers, Psychics, and Fortune Tellers are comparatively harmless in comparison with Psychotherapists, because our government is not issuing them licenses.

    And then when you have a client who realizes that they have been conned and manipulated, that the government is issuing licenses means that the government is legitimating the process and the underlying assumptions. As such it becomes more difficult to sue. Psychotherapists are emboldened by their licenses to go further in manipulating and using their clients. And this is after all the only reason that they are therapists. They don’t want to actually stand up to the injustices on which our society is built. Instead, they earn a living by covering for the abusers, by making the survivors believe that it is they who have always been in the wrong.

    http://www.afterpsychotherapy.com/transference/

    Fortunately though in many states there are signs of progress:

    https://www.wmlawyers.com/personal-injury-practice/therapist-abuse-pp/transference-counter-transference/

    Stomping the Cockroach, a work in progress
    https://sites.google.com/site/stompingthecockroach/

  • Dragon Slayer, I think you’ve got it right, Freud was trying to say that his approach was superior to the purely medical approach. But as we see, it is just a different way of finding defect in the survivor clients. And here on MIA, we see Psychotherapists trying to say that they are superior to the Psychiatrists. This is bogus, and the entire conversation is counter productive. Our whole society is made worse for it, and these therapists are profiting off of the misery of their clients.

    Stomping the Cockroach of Psychotherapy
    https://sites.google.com/site/stompingthecockroach/

  • Lawrence wrote, “…saying there’s no such thing as mental illness doesn’t magically make things better…”

    Again, saying that the experience of distress, anger, or depression means that something must be wrong.

    Survivor goes to a police station to report that she has been raped. What she hears is, “You came to the right place. We sure don’t want you to be carrying around distress, anger, or depression. We want to make things better so that you do not have to be a burden to society.”

  • Steve wrote, “Sorry, but I think you’re missing the point here. If a person is injured, we are not BLAMING them by helping them heal from the physical injury.”

    Totally untrue, totally. Anytime you say someone needs healing you are 1. Offering them pity in the hope that they will take it and accept the status of being an object of pity. 2. Building a basis for denying their experience, after all, they need healing, they are injured. So you can’t accept what they say, and they shouldn’t be trusting their own instincts.

    Mental illness, Psycholgically injured, these are always 100% moral issues, ground to futher deligitimate survivors. And anytime survivors, like MindFreedom, talk about therapy and recovery, they are stabbing survivors in the back.

    We must take a zero tolerance, any means necessary for defense, approach to psychiatry, psychotherapy, and recovery.

  • littleturtle, Frontal assault? Well remember that psychiatry, psychotherapy, and recovery are deployed to rob us of our dignity, our honor. They only way one ever restores their honor and place in the world is by being willing to face frontal assaults.

    There is not “TRUTH”, which can alleviate one of the need for this. Anything which says you can restore honor, or that you don’t need to restore honor, is just another denial system designed to keep you living in the very small social space which the abusers have left us with.

  • “Recovery” is a broad movement. The 12 step programs are only but one of its negative manifestations. But always, when talking about Recovery, people are saying that survivors suffer from a defect and they need to some how be rehabilitated or healed. This lets the perpetrators off scot free. Puts it all on the survivors, when the survivors have done nothing wrong.

  • “totally genocidal and the merely awful”

    Again, the mental health and therapy system is the continuation of eugenics and social Darwinism. These are totally bogus sciences. But you make them look real when you show a willingness to be chemically and mentally tortured, and to live without social status, and then compound the problem with an unlimited pledge of non-violence.

    Harriet Beecher Stowe felt her protagonist to be an exemplar of Christian Virtue. But like never before, the free black community was so outraged, that it moved from passivity to action, because they saw how negative the Uncle Tom character was.

    As such, slavery was finally ended because 180,000 black men trained with rifles and bayonets and served in federal uniform.

    MindFreedom is the abode of today’s Uncle Tom.

  • MindFreedom tells people to be passive in the face of severe abuse. It tells people that they have to take options off the table, which no one should ever renounce. It tells people to make a joke out of mental illness, instead of completely renouncing the concept. MindFreedom exists to placate the abusers. They make the same mistakes as the early Martin Luther King.

    Psychiatry and Psychotherapy are the continuation of Social Darwinism and Eugenics. No one will ever be able to restore their social and civil standing until we demonstrate that we will not take it lying down, but we will use any means necessary.

    The whole premise of eugenics is that some people don’t have what it takes to live, lack the necessary aggression and life affirmation. Would be better off in an institution, if not a gas chamber.

    MindFreedom reaffirms this with its unlimited and unconditional pledge of non-violence. The whole thing is pure idiocy.

  • Lawrence wrote, “When did I ever suggest salvaging any part of psychiatry? All I suggested is re-educating the public about there sometimes being unconscious issues causing our feelings/behaviors, to counteract psychiatry’s lies about societally-disapproved of feelings/behaviors being caused by genetic/chemical defects.”

    But these “unconscious issues” is a concept which serves in the same capacity as the concepts of “mental illness” and “genetic/chemical” defects. Its saying, “No, don’t follow your basic instincts to fight back against abusers. Don’t try to jail them or sue them. Don’t do anything. Sumbit to our society’s authorities because you have unknown unconscious force ( read Satan ) working in you. You must doubt your feelings and instincts. You must stuff your feelings and learn to live in an unjust world without complaint. Do not fight to restore your public honor. Instead, learn to live by seeking pity. After all, you are the one who is responsible for all the difficulties you have had.”

    Just like it is with psychiatry, psychoanalysis and psychotherapy, from Freud up to the present, are simply ways to further abuse survivors. And it targets survivors and juveniles being subject to abuse, because such persons are less able to defend themselves.

    So psychoanalysis and psychotherapy should still fall within the international court definition of Crimes Against Humanity. It’s just talking advantage of vulnerable parts of the population.

    Some might say the same of channelers, psychics, fortune tellers, and religion. But as these are not government licensed the way that psychotherapy is, they do not constitute the same sort of systematic abuse. They’re merely con-artists, nothing more.


    Crimes against humanity are certain acts that are deliberately committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack or individual attack directed against any civilian or an identifiable part of a civilian population.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity

    And Germany has written into its constitution the ability for NGO’s to prepare overseas indictments, even though none of the other nation’s laws are being broken. This how we should do it, besides lawsuits, get some international Crimes Against Humanity indictments. Psychiatry and Psychothearpy are systematic persecutions against vulnerable parts of the population. They target abuse survivors and children.

  • But Freud lives on in psychotherapy and the recovery movement. Like it was with Freud, these institutions seek to establish social normalcy, and they do this by making people believe that it is their own aggression, anger, and sexuality which are the problem.

  • Lawrence wrote, “problems we address ”

    And this is indeed the way which Psychiatry, Psychothearpy, and Recovery work, turning your experience of societal injustice, into a medial problem and self improvement project.

    If you let them do this to you, then they’ve got you.

    And then when they do it minors not currently being represented by an attorney in court, then they are just accomplice child abusers.

  • Janet, thank you for your article.

    The middle-class family exists for one reason only, to psychically scar and maim children. So invariably this effects everyone in terms of what they can do. We end up living in the social spaces the abusers have left us with. And the only way to change this is to find comrades and start fighting back.

    Psychotherapy and the Recover Movement run on lies which are very similar to the ones which Psychiatry runs on. And these lies are extremely dangerous because most people believe them.

    One of the most dangerous is that you have this need for psychological healing. This is nothing more than another adaptation of the religious doctrine of Original Sin. It prevents you from acting to restore your public honor, and instead it leaves you seeking approval, really seeking pity.

    We must stop our government from issuing licenses to Psychotherapists, and we must prevent them from performing their therapy upon children, except for those situations where the child is being represented by an attorney in court.

    The remedy to all of these sorts of issues is political consciousness raising and political action. I see your article as a first step in this direction.

  • littleturtle, no one has any mental illness. There is no such thing.

    But if someone is denied social and civil standing, they are having to live without honor, and that is always extremely painful because your survival is continually being threatened.

    The only way anyone ever restores their honor is by fighting back, going upstream instead of down stream. Otherwise it’s just more pity.

    Therapy, Recovery, and Healing, all they are is teaching people to live by asking for pity. It makes the original abusers and all of the subsequent abusers the ones who are right.

  • “Recovery” is a concept designed to shift the fault back onto the survivor. It may have started with substance addiction, but even there it is completely wrong.

    I work with community groups, trying to compensate for the damage done to the political consciousness of the poor and homeless by the evangelical Christian outreaches. Their position is, “Jesus loves you so much that he wants to give you a second chance. All he asks in return is that you submit and admit that it is your fault for screwing up the first chance.”

    It is impossible to compete with the recruiting power of a submission and pie in the sky religion.

    But I still keep telling all of them, “If someone has been treated with dignity and respect, and given the chance to develop and apply their abilities, then it is very unlikely that they would ever develop a problem with drugs or alcohol.”

    And also, “Movie stars get into trouble with drugs and alcohol all the time. But they still have access to independent and high income careers. So their difficulties are treated as medical problems, not moral problems. It only becomes a moral problem when people are not willing to try and live on garbage jobs.”

    Excellent Book:
    https://www.amazon.com/Alcoholics-Cult-Cure-Charles-Bufe-ebook/dp/B0073GUWOS/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1

  • “Interesting that you didn’t say you respect other people’s right to pursue change as they see fit, just that you can’t change them (all?).”

    Well we have all sorts of people pursuing various things. Much of it is reactionary. We have Donald Trump, the Republican Party, and its Tea Party Movement. I am opposed to all of these things.

    And we have people promoting Psychotherapy, Healing, and Recovery. These also are reactionary. They put stigma on survivors while letting the perpetrators get of off scot-free. They make it seem like it is the survivor who really was wrong in the first place.

    Survivors can restore their honor when they can fight some battles and win. if they are not even trying to do this, then they are still trying to live by seeking pity.

    Oldhead wrote:
    ““recovery” paradigm for articulating the dynamics of personal and political growth”

    ?????

    Obviously “recovery” is not a paradigm for personal and political growth, because it casts the fault back onto the survivor, it is designed to make people submit to the idea of innate personal defect.

    The way one grows is by learning how to fight back against the practices of psychotherapy, healing, and recovery.

  • Steve wrote, “Do people need to recover from being hit by a car, even if it’s not their own fault?”

    But that is still turning it back on the survivor, making it their fault for not “just getting over it”. The idea is an adaptation of the religious emphasis on forgiveness, and necessitated by original sin.

    That people experience personal distress and that this is caused by abuses from long ago, is one of the ~~LIES~~ on which psychotherapy is based.

    If someone is abused, that means like violence, or bullying, or being dumped on or manipulated. Well what that does is it trashes their social and civil standing. They may feel worthless. But what is far more important is that it establishes that they actually are worthless, because such abuses can be repeated at any time.

    But to say that they need healing is just another layer of abuse.

    A rape survivor goes into a police station to report the crime, and what she hears is, “Yes we are here to help with your recovery and healing. We don’t want you to have to carry these issues around with you and be a burden to the society.”

    No, what the survivor needs is that chance to fight back, because this is the ONLY WAY ANYONE EVER RESTORES THEIR HONOR.

    Psychiatry says it is about the pain from long ago of the abuse. But this is a LIE. It is about the lack of honor and social and civil standing in the present. Talk about healing and recovery is just more abuse, more ways to deny the survivor honor.

    Living without honor is always painful, because you know that you are worthless and expendable. Feeling distress is a very important evolutionary response. We feel it when we know that the we are marginalized, because we know that our survival is being threatened.

    But how then to fight back? Well, in a civilized society, and when fighting against societally sanctioned kinds of abuses, it is hard. Civilization exists in order to inflict certain types of abuses and prohibit reprisals. Sometimes you can fight off abusers in real time. But when there are historical abuses, and abuses of a common nature which deny you social and civil standing, you must have comrades.

    But to have comrades their has to be political consciousness. Psychotherapy and the Recovery Movement attack political consciousness directly, via their lies.

    Once people see that they can organize and that they are needed in order to achieve political change, then they are no longer worthless.

    Their willingness to believe this lie of psychological healing will evaporate.

    A non-threaded forum, the standard type of message board, would be easier.

  • MindFreedom definitely does promote the ideas of Therapy and Recovery. And these are based on lies very similar to the lies on which Psychiatry is based. So just as Vichy French collaborated, MindFreedom collaborates with the entire mental health system. Many people will feel that Therapy and Recovery are fine for moderate cases, but we still need psychiatry, forced treatment, drugs, ECT, and lobotomy for the more extreme cases.

    Don’t worry Representative Murphy of Pennsylvania, were here at MindFreedom have been rendered non-violent. If you keep jabbing at an animal with a stick for long enough, then something happen. But with we at MindFreedom, nothing ever will. You can do anything to us, and we will never raise a hand to defend ourselves. The psychiatry and psychotherapy we have had has left us as if we are castrated. You can even really castrate us if you want. We wouldn’t mind that at all.

    But we just want you to have pity on us and not send us to psychiatry and not put us on the drugs which destroy our livers. We won’t bother you, we won’t be disruptive. We don’t blame anyone but ourselves. Just please don’t send us to psychiatrists. Instead, just let us have our psychotherapy and recovery.

    We at MindFreedom follow Martin Luther King and we practice creative nonviolence. We would never take any steps to try and hold historic abusers responsible or to demand our fair place in the world. We just want our psychotherapy and recovery. It is of course we who are to blame, but just have some pity on use and let us have our psychotherapy and recovery. We know that we are defective.

  • Yes that’s right, ” fighting for kinder abuse “. At least that is how they see it.

    In France they would be called collaborators. In this country, because of our unique history, they would be called Uncle Tom’s.

    Harriet Beecher-Stowe felt that her protagonist was an exemplar of Christian virtue, because even though tortured to death, he would not disclose the route taken by the escapes. She wanted to convince white people that blacks were not a threat.

    But the larger effect of her novel was to enrage free blacks because they were so offended by the association. A year after the novel was published, black men were demanding that they be able to serve in the Militia of Massachusetts, and siting Uncle Tom as what they would otherwise become if they were not allowed to serve. Denied the chance to serve, they formed their own militia.

    People who have survived any tentacle of the Mental Health – Recovery System should be demanding that it be abolished and that the perpetrators be incarcerated. And they should be demanding that the original abusers be held accountable, and that their be reparations for the survivors.

    I helped to put into our state prison a man who was molesting his three daughters, while with the full support of his Pentecostal church trying to send them to Eye Movement Desensitization Therapy, to free them of their false memories.

    As far as psychotherapy, I believe that the new move to sue for psychotherapist abuse is very positive, focusing on Freud’s concept of transference. Most people would see that the client is just mad because they realized that they’ve invested time and money into someone who is not really on their side, but rather sides with the established social order. He sides with the abuser parents. So they are really mad. Freud called this ‘transference’. So now people are suing. I see this as extremely positive.

    The other thing is, rather than outlaw psychotherapy between consenting adults, instead prohibit out government from licensing it.

    We have psychics, channelers, and fortune tellers. The harm they do is minimal, because they are not licensed agents of the government.

    If a parent was using one of the above to further harm their child, people would end up handcuffed to tables while police interrogate them.

    But with a licensed psychotherapist, no. They are available for hire with complete impunity.

    If a doctor performs improper or incompetent medicine, it is medial malpractice.

    If a parent deceives the doctor, then they used to call it Munchausen’s Syndrome By Proxy. Now though they are looking at it more broadly and calling it Medical Child Abuse.

    https://www.amazon.com/Medical-Child-Abuse-Munchausen-Syndrome/dp/1581101368/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1513634593&sr=8-1&keywords=medical+child+abuse

    But what do you call it when you have some whole brands of doctors who are in the business of helping parents who want to find fault with their child, doctors who don’t need to be deceived?

    And any psychotherapy procedures performed upon a minor have to be considered involuntary.

  • littleturtle, There is not such thing as mental illness. And no one needs psychotherapy, psychoanalysis, recovery, psychiatric medications, or street drugs or alcohol.

    What we have is a society which depends on the continual creation of scapegoats. It does this with the mental health system, and it does this via the middle-class family.

    The remedy is always political consciousness raising and political action.

    The vast majority of the posters on this forum are not supporting this, they are supporting psychotherapy and recovery. These are simply more abuse of survivors.

  • ” feelings/issues which we are not completely conscious of but which still motivate us”

    But that is still profiting of the misery of others. Freud is not helping to raise political consciousness, he is making people believe that people are the reason for their own distress and their own trashed social and civil standing.

    Psychoanalysis, Psychotherapy, and Recovery, are completely parasitic doctrines which prey upon the marginalized.

  • littleturtle, the mental health system, and psychotherapy and recovery, are a resurgence of the completely bogus sciences of social Darwinism and eugenics. These are happening now in order to justify increasing economic stratification, neo-liberalism.

    We are the beneficiaries of 250 years of industrial advances. Or we should be. It should lift all boats and let us live with a far smaller work force. But as it is now, we have increasing economic stratification and many find themselves being at the bottom and being used as political scapegoats.

  • Sanderella, you may feel that way about it. But people can face excruciating physical trials, if they want to. You don’t need one drug to get off another.

    And the idea of psychological healing is a myth. People feel distress when their ability to survive is being threatened in the present. People who have had their life stories nullified, naturally feel distress, because they are considered illegitimate. So their survival is being threatened.

    You don’t ‘heal’ from historic abuses. That concept is just a way that clinicians advance their own denial systems., and shift responsibility back on to their survivor client.

    The only way to correct a negative and dangerous situation is political consciousness raising and political activism.

    Psychotherapy runs on lies, the need for this ‘healing’ is only but one of them.

  • If the Mental Health System were reformed, then there would not be licensed therapists on a forum like this promoting psychotherapy, healing, and recovery. All of that is must more abuse of survivors. And that the government licenses psychotherapists makes them radically more dangerious than faith healers, psychics, channelers, and fortune tellers. We must stop our government from being able to issue such licenses.

    Remember, if you are lying on the couch confession, that guy in the arm chair listening to you is a government mind control agent.

  • Unfortunately most anti-psychiatry, not Whitaker, but most, like on this board, is just and endorsement of psychotherapy and the concept of recovery.

    Psychotherapy and Recovery are based on a premise of moral defect, their version of Original Sin.

    If we had this in earlier times, we would never have had an Abolitionist Movement. If people listened to it in more recent times, we would never have had a Civil Rights Movement.

    Today we have legions of poor people who find that there stories are not socially legitimated. As long as they listen to Psychotherapists and Recoveryists, never will the be able to stand up and restore their honor. And often such persons are simply the scapegoats of the middle-class family.

    If a child is being represented in court by an attorney, then a psychologist can provide information which will help that attorney. But if the psychologist is working for the parents, then they are helping the parents abuse that child. A court has authority over the parents. But no psychologist ever does, they are playing God in believing that they can act without inflicting harm on a child already in a horrible situation.

    Talk to any therapist or recovery person about redress and legal change, they will be mortified, mortified just like religionists are. The basic lie of psychotherapy is that you can lead a good life, specifically because you do not stand up and fight to restore your honor, but instead you accept living in the limited social space which a long line of abusers has left you.

    I feel safe in saying that an often result of psychotherapy, because it is based entirely on lies, is suicide. If does not expose the lies, then I would expect little better.

  • Lawrence, your article is interesting, but highly flawed.

    It is interesting that this supposed conflict between Psychotherapy and Psychiatry goes way back. And it is still going on today, like here on MadInAmerica, as Psychotherapists try to gain market share from Psychiatrists, but hiding the fact that the whole thing is a bogus market.

    Freud started out saying that his 16 patients, female hysterics, were correct in reporting childhood sexual molestations. But for this, Freud was pilloried. So by the time of the publication of his Interpretation of Dreams, he completely recanted and presented his theory of infantile seduction and fantasy. For this, Freud was accepted.

    So he sells out his patients, so that the society will accept him. While not postulating ~mental illness~ he is postulating something far deeper, a deficit, a defect, which lies at the core. He is trying to show the existence of Original Sin.

    And then Freud always opposed leftist movements. And when in Austria he saw troops mobilizing for WWI, he went on to lament about all the kinds of darkness’s in the human soul.

    Never does he say that the problems causing WWI were Capitalism and Monarchy, or that it is right for people to stand up and fight to defend their country. And never ever did he support the idea that the supposedly ‘disturbed’ should instead be fighting to redress the injustices which they have experienced.

    Now yes, the Freudian type of analysis never did catch on in the US, it was more this Ego Counseling.

    Excellent book which traces the entire history, available on paper, and here full text:
    http://faculty.humanities.uci.edu/poster/CTF/

    And the best critique of Freud:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Oedipus

    The critical acclaim for this continues to grow.

    Deleuze and Guattari were writing in France in 1972. So they did not see what we have now in the US with the Recovery Movement. But what they describe as ‘neuroticism’ captures it to a tee.

    And then Jeffrey Masson, the curator of the Sigmund Freud Institute:
    https://www.amazon.com/Against-Therapy-J-Moussaieff-Masson/dp/1567510221

    And then Alice Miller, when she was at her best and influenced by Masson and she rejected ALL forms of therapy as merely the therapist promoting their own denial systems and selling out the client:
    https://www.amazon.com/Thou-Shalt-Not-Be-Aware/dp/0374525439/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513383552&sr=1-1&keywords=alice+miller+thou+shalt+not+be+aware

    So Lawrence we have Psychiatrists positing mental illness. But Foucault showed us all that this really is just Original Sin. And we have Psychotherapists trying to claim market share by positing their own formulation of Original Sin, and likewise with the Recovery Movement.

    So I find our article to be completely inadequate and erroneous.

  • The problem with MindFreedom is that it encourages people to live by seeking pity, to become Uncle Toms, rather than organizing and fighting to stop the abuse.

    So I am 100% opposed to MindFreedom, it is doing the work of the mental health system.

  • People who have done nothing wrong do not need to Recover. Instead they need restorative justice.

    Rape victim goes to a police station to report the crime. What she hears is, “You come to the right place, we have therapist and support groups on call 24-7, to help you with your recovery, so that you don’t have to go around carrying resentment.”

  • I consider one of the most frightening things on the horizon today to be Rick and Kay Warren’s “Hope For Mental Health” ministry, and their seeming alliance with UC Irving and its new “Integrative Psychiatry” 8 story building, and then Rick Warren’s “Celebrating Recovery Program”, and how that is pitched at captive audiences, literally, state prisons.

  • I believe you are talking about being abused in the gaslighting manner, and then sent into the mental health system.

    Yes of course we should put a stop to that. But to do any such thing we first need to organize and start taking actions, instead of debating with Therapists and people in therapy and recovery.

    And we must completely disavow MindFreedom, MadPride, this Mad Movement, and any other forms of Uncle Tomism, living by pity instead of honor.

  • Following Foucault, the idea of mental health has always been just like Original Sin, and cures were always similar to religious conversion. Eugenics did come later, but what we have today in Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, and Recovery, are the continuation of eugenics and social Darwinism, and they are used to get people to accept extreme economic stratification and familial child scapegoating.

  • Emma is demonstrating how the mental health system works, turning the experience of injustice into a personal medical problem and self improvement project. Basically infantilizing. We must learn how to stand up to this and fight back in all situations.

    I say this UCI new building and program is an excellent place to start.

    Every patient a plaintiff!

  • TruthisBest,
    The mental health system and the recovery movement are nothing but gaslighting. They are able to make people believe that it is they themselves who are the source of their problems.

    And the middle-class family is behind this, and it also is nothing but gaslighting, trying to get people to believe in an ideology of sentimentalism, and to exonerate adults who do not live up to their own values, but instead have children so they can hide behind them.

    And Psychiatry and Pschotherapy and the Recovery Movement are predicated on being able to make every social issue into a survivor’s personal failings, just as you are trying to do to me.

  • Truth793810, but the recovery movement does not work like that. Ever spent time around AA, Alanon, Coda? Know about the programs they have in the jails and prisons?

    It is all predicated on the idea that the client suffers from a moral defect.

    Maybe this does not rise to the level of ~mental illness~, but it is opposed to political consciousness. The primary attack is to get people to believe that the problem starts with them.

    A rape victim goes to a police station to report the crime. What she hears is, “You came the right place. We have programs to help you recover from your problem.”

  • Any treatment upon a minor is forced. If the minor is not currently be represented by an attorney in court, then any ‘therapy’ is just accomplice child abuse. Handcuffs, and Jail!

    Our government should not be allowed to license psychotherapy, just like we don’t license fortune tellers or channelers. But if they were abusing children, they would be arrested.

    The whole premise of psychotherapy is that the client still has some sort of a defect or short coming. While this may not rise to the level of ~mental illness~, it is still taking unfair advantage of the client’s naiveté. As Jeffrey Masson says, “The practice of psychotherapy is wrong because it is profiting on the miser of others.”

  • Psychoanalysis is based on trying to get the client to support socially normative views, by deploying denial. This is how Freud turned against his first 16 patients, female hysterics, daughters of his bourgeoisie friends. At first he believed their stories of sexual molestation. Freud was pilloried for this. Then just over a decade later with his Interpretation of Dreams, he said that their stories were fantasies. Hence his theory of infantile sexual desires and sexual fantasies. Always putting it back on the survivor, and usually over issues from childhood.

    Today, Psychotherapy is exactly the same. They might not tell juveniles that they are lying or fantasizing anymore, because that would constitute the commission of a felony. But the whole premise of Psychotherapy is that a survivor should take no actions to obtain justice. They turn victims into Uncle Tom’s. If your therapist did not believe in this, they could not be a therapist.

    So as long as someone supports psychotherapy, there response to the angry, embittered, and disgruntled, is going to be, “You need therapy”. And here on MadinAmerica, most of its psychotherapist authors say things just like this.

    So nothing changes, no abusers are publicly punished, the injustices of society are not redressed. Instead the victims are told that it is they themselves who are the problem, and especially their tendencies towards aggressing and sex. And so survivors have to live in a world which does not consider their life story legitimate, because they should be seeing a therapist and learning how to deploy denial.

    And so then if you support the above, at least most people will then still support psychiatry and drugs, for the more serious cases. It comes down to denying the life stories of survivors.

    I would not outlaw psychotherapy, not between consenting adults, just like you can’t really outlaw fortune telling or religion. But we should discredit it and our government should be prohibited from the licensing of it.

    But psychotherapy on a minor? This is always without consent. If the minor is not currently being represented by an attorney in court, then the therapist is merely an accomplice child abuser. That should be immediate handcuffs and a jail cell.

    We the survivors should be making this happen, instead of debating with psychotherapists and psychiatrists, and with those in therapy and in recovery programs.

  • We would know if there was reform because the mental health system and the recovery movement would no longer exist. There would be zero licensed practitioners because the government would not be allowed to issue such licenses. People would not longer be talking about healing or getting better or about recovery or rehabilitation. Instead they would be talking about the ongoing Crimes Against Humanity trials of the former mental health practitioners. We would be punishing the perpetrators, rather than further abusing the survivors.

    FWIW, these two orgs look like the best anti-psychiatry orgs I can find, especially these Blue Panthers, because they are also 100% anti-psychotherapy. You cannot really be anti-psychiatry unless you are also 100% anti-psychoanalysis and anti-psychotherapy. But I don’t know that these groups have any recent activity.

    https://bluepanthersparty.wordpress.com/

    http://antipsychiatry.org/index.htm

  • Psychotherapy and Recovery exist simply to take your experience of injustice, and to turn it into a medical problem and a self improvement project.

    There is zero good in these. We must reject them entirely.

    People feel, and some people use non-prescription mood alterants for reasons, not because they have a character disorder.

    The remedy is always political consciousness and political action. Once people get a taste of that they will throw their chemicals away and fire their psychotherapists.

  • Ron Unger wrote: “I think we are more likely to be able to come together and do well when we are open to the idea that we all have problems and probably need to change in some ways.”

    Ron, you are completely off base saying that other people have problems and need to change. What is true is that the practice of psychotherapy is wrong because it is profiting from the suffering of others. The sooner we can put psychotherapists our of business, the better.

  • Ron Unger wrote, “Going mad involves breaking away from, or losing touch with, group norms and ideas about reality.”

    Again, this is predicated on the idea that there is this ~mental illness~ or ~psychological crises~, and “Transformation and Recovery” is simply a continuation of the idea that the survivor has to change and that the survivor has a problem.

    We must reject all Psychotherapy and Recovery, even if linked with the idea of transformation.

  • FeelinDiscouraged, are you replying to me?

    Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, and Recovery are simply ways of further abusing survivors, turning us into Uncle Toms.

    It all starts with the legitimate experience of injustice, and then it turns that into a medical problem and a self improvement project. Its all an expression of the religions concept of Original Sin.

  • FeelingDiscourage wrote, “suffer horribly ”

    People have to feel their pain. There is no alternative to that.

    That there is some way to escape is a bogus concept. Its the main reason that Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, and the Recovery Movement can be lethal.

    And then people use psychmeds, street drugs, and alcohol to escape. Also extremely harmful.

    People must face their pain. That pain is their primary compass and their connection to the world and to lived experience. Pain, and anger, are what should drive us to good. But these are also where Psychotherapy, Religion, and the Recovery Movement attack.

    That you can live without facing your pain is a ridiculous delusion. But it is one that keeps people using the chemicals, the therapy, and the religion.

  • “Susan Rogers is inspired by Angela Davis’s response to the Serenity Prayer: “I am no longer accepting the things I cannot change. I’m changing the things I can’t accept.” She writes in hopes of speaking truth to power. ”

    An awesome response to the Uncle Tomism which is the Recovery Movement! Thank you Susan. And than you Angela Davis.

    Susan, I say we have to get people to absolutely reject all Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, and the Recovery Movement, and then we need to start putting some of the practitioners of each of these horrors out of business.

    Really not that difficult as I see it. What do you think?

  • The Recovery Movement is based on ideas taken from drug addiction treatment. It was wrong there because it is based on the idea that the addict suffers from a moral defect. People who are treated with dignity and respect and given the chance to develop and apply their abilities, are very unlikely to develop a problem with drugs or alcohol. Addiction is not a moral defect, it is a common result of abuse.

    But the concept is also used to deal with incest survivorship and all other types of survivorship.

    Recovery is a way of shifting the blame back to the survivor, turning the experience of injustice into a medical problem and a self improvement project.

    And Psychotherapy is just more of the same, a con, a way of turning injustice into a problem with the survivor. This started with Freud, betraying his female patients. It continues right to this day when the therapist lets the client talk themselves out, but they re not on the client’s side, they are on the side of the parents, and of our society.

    They teach people to live in an unjust society without complaint. They make the client’s anger into the problem to be solved, rather than the injustice of which it is about.

    So long as we have Recovery or Psychotherapy, we will always be abusing survivors and we will always have psychiatry, psych drugs, and involuntary treatment.

    We must adopt a strict middle-finger, one verbal warning only policy with Psychiatry and Recovery.

    https://www.amazon.com/Against-Therapy-J-Moussaieff-Masson/dp/1567510221/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1512693259&sr=8-1&keywords=against+therapy

  • That’s Right! Psychotherapy is the biological treatment. And this is why we must reject it with extreme prejudice. It is based on the idea that the client, really the abuse target, has a defect. It is a religion, the new expression of the idea of Original Sin.

    With must reject this with extreme prejudice, even using the power of citizen’s arrest where warranted. Our government must in no way be supporting or licensing psychotherapy. We the survivors need to start putting as many as possible of them out of business.

    If a psychotherapist is doing these talk sessions on a juvenile who is not currently being represented by an attorney in court, then that psychotherapist is merely a hired accomplice abuser. They should be arrested, hand-cuffed, and taken to jail.

  • ^^^^^ Still based on the idea that the patient has some sort of defect, needs the doctor to correct it, and at core the problem is one of refusal to submit to injustice without complaint.

    People need to learn to stand up to the mental health system and the recovery movement, recognizing it as the lethal threat which it is. It preys upon those who are already the most compliant.

  • “Maybe they could call what they are treating for by its cause, such as lingering effects of childhood abuse, or latent effects of childhood emotional neglect, or emotional injury from abusive spouse”

    That would still be preying upon survivors. That still comes back to the survivor, making them the culpable party for not having “gotten over it” sooner.

    People need to stand up to the Mental Health and Recovery System, recognizing it as the lethal threat which it is.

    Of course no one in their right mind would ever go to any doctor or therapist who is going to report.

    But we also need to let people see how any type of psychotherapy is absolutely poisonous.

  • We have to get people to accept that all Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, and Recovery Programs are abuse. And then mobilize at the street level. Picket, for example in front of county hospitals, in front of UC Irvine’s gates over this new ‘Integrative Psychiatry’ building, and in front of the offices of individual psychotherapists.

    Make people understand that it is all abuse, even if voluntary. Promote law suits, one patient, one plaintiff.

    And we must track all mental health and recovery program workers.

    Make people understand that the Mental Health and Recovery system is Crime Against Humanity, and it is the modern version of the bogus sciences of Social Darwinism and Eugenics.

  • “integrative approaches” just means that they are going to go even further in taking over your life, because that way they can make a more convincing case that you are the one who is at fault.

    We need to stop Healing and Recovering, and start politically organizing and fighting back.

    And how much is Rick Warren and his ‘Hope For Mental Health’ ministry entwined in this? I suspect that it is hugely so. 20,000 local congregation, and then these workshop kits for other churches, all designed to make people believe in ~~Mental Illness~~, and that they need to run to Warren, and to his idol, for protection.

    Right here, the first seriously suspect thing I have found about Henry Samueli. He is involved in
    https://thinktogether.org/

    Encountered this before. Their idea seems to be that low income and minority children are a social hygiene menace, but they can be saved. So it supports the themes which underlie schools privatization. If some of these children can be saved, then that further shows that the rest of these populations have no one to blame but themselves. Seems designed to support Social Darwinism, Racism, and Eugenics.

    It sounds similar to the Nazi Germanization program, where some Jewish children were transformed into Aryans and adopted. It was an offshoot of Lebensborn.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-quot-lebensborn-quot-program


    Ultimately, one of the most horrible sides of the Lebensborn policy was the kidnapping of children “racially good” in the eastern occupied countries after 1939. Some of these children were was orphans, but it is well documented that many were stolen from their parents’ arms. These kidnappings were organized by the SS in order to take children by force who matched the Nazis’ racial criteria (blond hair and blue or green eyes). Thousands of children were transferred to the Lebensborn centers in order to be “Germanized.” Up to 100,000 children may have been stolen from Poland alone.

    One of the main people behind Think Together is Irvine Co CEO Donald Bren, the richest and most powerful man in Southern California, according to the LA times. Think Together seems to be trying to prove that low income and minority children need to be culturally rescued.

    Samueli’s parents survived the holocaust in Poland. If we had been organized, it should have been possible to avert this $200 Meg new building. It should have been possible to talk sense into them, even if that meant trying to work through Jewish organizations and to put pressure on them.

    And though we can’t protest on the UCI campus, we could protest at its gates and actually reach far more people. We could convince UC that each new patient is likely to result in one more plaintiff.

  • I don’t see any way these ‘neurological disorders’ will ever be found. It’s just more voodoo. The nervous system is very plastic. Even if you could find something different about the so called ‘Mentally Ill”, or about the so called ‘neurological differences’ of ADHD, Aspergers, and Autism. what does that prove?

    It proves nothing, except maybe for the fact that there are huge numbers of people who have been broken by the system and who have stopped politically organizing and defending themselves.

  • Sorry Francesca, but I do not go along with you. Sometimes facing the ways in which we have been used, exploited, and abused, and facing how unfair and unjust our world is, and the ways that most of the society is in a trance, is just too painful to bear, and so it is easier to believe that we ourselves suffer from some sort of medical and moral defect.

    The mental health system attacks at your own life affirmation, and the desire to fight and fuck. And it makes you believe that you yourself are the problem.

  • ^^^^^^^ AMEN!

    We also have the Recovery Movement, another way of shifting blame back on to survivors, and also of breaking down the barrier between church and state, by rebranding the concept of Original Sin.

    It all changes when we can organize and start taking actions, instead of seeking Healing and Recovery.

  • ^^^^^ Outstanding findings there, @The_Cat.

    As I see it, the entire Mental Health / Recovery edifice is a direct attack on sexuality and aggression, an attack on your and my aliveness.

    They make you believe that your own life affirmation is a problem, the problem. They convince you of this, and whether quickly of slowly, your own suicide is the result.

    We need to stop going along with therapy and recovery, and instead organize and start fighting back.

  • Susan and Henry Samueli, sole donors, $200 Meg?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Samueli

    http://www.samueli.org/about-us/leadership-staff/

    http://www.samueli.org/funding-priorities/integrative-health/

    http://drwaynejonas.com/

    https://www.forbes.com/profile/henry-samueli/

    Samueli looks suspect to me, like Gates and the Walton’s, supporting stuff which looks like the charter schools movement.

    I believe there is going to be some connection to this. I have seen that in their videos they draw upon UC Irvine people.
    http://hope4mentalhealth.com/

    http://saddleback.com/watch/media/what-is-a-saddleback
    “Second Chance Grace Place”, meaning that you screwed up already.
    “Everyone needs Recovery”, this is the new Original Sin.

    Evangelical Christianity merging with the Recovery Movement, this should be really scaring people.

    And then, http://hope4mentalhealth.com/

    Expanding further to the mental health arena. People should be fighting back by all available means.

    Henry Samueli and Rick Warren are both extremely prominent in Orange County:

    https://www.pressreader.com/usa/los-angeles-times/20090308/282995395781868

    A message from Aaron Kheriaty, MD — Associate Professor of Psychiatry, Director of Medical Ethics Program, University of California, Irvine
    http://hope4mentalhealth.com/watch/media/small-group-mentoring-model?categoryId=1

    The Gathering on Mental Health and the Church
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Ysnb2o85I

    So it appears that often Integrative Mental Health seems to mean Religious Mental Health, or Mental Health Religion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRCuOTyP34g

    WE MUST ORGANIZE TO EDUCATE PEOPLE AND TO HELP THEM DEFEND THEMSELVES!

  • ^^^^^^ “I have seen moments where acute use of psych drugs have brought a completely incoherent person into a state where communication was possible within 20 minutes. I think that’s good medicine.”

    So you look at someone who is incoherent as having some sort of a problem which needs to be fixed?

    You are simply taking advantage of the fact that said person is not in a position to be able to defend themselves, and then assaulting them with a chemical which in some way suppresses whatever they are experiencing.

    That’s horrible, and I hope people recognize it as a medical assaultive.

  • YetAnotherAccount, we all live in a world which is in deep denial. How else do you explain the huge number of people living on the margins, if not in institutions or on drugs?

    Julie, Parents do not cause mental illness. They couldn’t, because there is no such thing as mental illness.

    Beyond a certain point it is pointless to even talk about child abuse, because the issues here are not the aberrational things which occasionally happen. Far more useful is to talk about child exploitation, something which is near universal. It happens because the middle-class lives in bad faith, does not take responsibility for the fact that it has choices. And so the burden of this always falls upon the children. And then psychoanalysis grew up at the center of this middle-class hypocrisy. Originally Freud said that his patients, female hysterics, were telling the truth when they spoke of early childhood sexual molestations. Freud was pilloried. But by publication of his “Interpretation of Dreams” he had changed his theory, talking about infantile sexual fantasies and saying that his patients were not being truthful. This is still today the basis of psychotherapy. Though the law stops them from saying the juveniles are making up stories of molestation and other abuse, they still take the position that the problems lie within the patient, and not in the environment in which they live and in the ways power has been wielded against them. So the therapist is further exploiting the patient, and no matter what the patient’s age.

    Hence you have people who enter adolescence and adulthood, with no real place in this world, and believing that there is something wrong with them. And it is this latter which makes them subject to further exploitation, by religion, by psychotherapists, and by psychiatrists, to name but a few.

  • People will have crises, because the world we live in is patently unfair, and many people have their basic humanity taken from them before they even reach adolescence.

    So living as a doormat, yes that is very hard. But to call that a ‘psychological crisis’ is just another form of abuse being perpetrated against survivors. People should not stand for this and should organize and take legal action when ever they are being subjected to it, “Psychological Crisis”.

  • Lets find out the details of this $200 Meg new building, like is there any connection to Rick and Kay Warren, trying to use the suicide death of their son Matthew to further evangelize. Then organize an opposition campaign. It is hard to picket university campuses, because they are not fully open to the public. But picketing at the gates and identifying the people behind this will be very effective.

  • “Integrative Mental Health”?

    And money going into new buildings at UC Irvine? Does that have anything to do with Rick Warren and the Saddle Back Church and his mental health ministry?

    This is all a huge step backwards, further propagating the idea of mental health, and therapy, and recovery.

    We should be fighting back on all fronts, and eliminating licensed psychiatry and psychotherapy, and looking for ways to incarcerate the practitioners. And of course we should eliminate those drugs.

    Psychotherapy and the mental health system:
    http://www.antbusters.com/images/American_Roach_-_4.jpg

  • jclaude, you are listening to the testimony of Uncle Tom’s, people who have been duped. They have been convinced that life is hard for them because they are, “carrying things around with them”.

    This is patent nonsense. Life is hard because their social and civil standing have been trashed in the present. A therapist will never do anything to try and remedy this, they only work to suppress the client.

  • Tweedle, Psychotherapy and Recovery are predicated on denigrating survivors. Problem is too many survivors go along with it. Can’t really outlaw talk between consenting adults, but we should not be giving special licensing to it. Such licensing should be revoked, and we must be protecting children from it.

    And of course involuntary drugging has to be considered on the level of lethal assault.

    Beyond that, things change when survivors start voluntarily rejecting all therapy and recovery, and instead opt for political consciousness raising and political action.

  • Of course we need to be fighting these microchip sensors and the laws behind them by any means necessary.

    But psychotherapy cannot ever be a part of this, it must be 100% rejected as it still serves to subjugate the clients.

    The remedy can only be political consciousness raising, political activism, and penalties for perpetrators and reparations for the survivors. These can only be obtained by fighting. And no one can ever restore their social and civil standing without demonstrating willingness to impose penalties upon perpetrators. Unless you are willing to fight for what is right, and to impose penalties on wrong doers, then you are still in your therapist’s office.

    We should have people on the ground right now working to end this guy’s political career:
    http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/10/23/opinion-if-counties-invested-more-in-treating-mental-illness-public-safety-would-improve/

    This guy sees the poor as a social hygiene menace, and he holds up his family scapegoat brother as the example of someone who has to be kept drugged.

  • This is all very disturbing, and we should be fighting it in the courts, as well as by any other means available.

    But also understand, the much of the illegitimate justification behind psychiatry and psychotherapy, come from a family values vantage point. Most of these people who are in the mental health system have family members who have already rejected them.

    And right now there are negative parent child dynamics in play, where soon the parent will be driving the child to doctors, maybe getting drugs, maybe just getting talk therapy, but always making the child wrong and setting them up to become basket cases.

    The remedy to any of this can never be psychotherapy, even eclectic therapies. It has to be penalties for perpetrators and reparations for survivors.

  • Well, narrative therapy, that may sound interesting, but clearly there is still the premise that you need to be fixed, because you suffer from some deficiency or defect. And the measure of this is always going to be your anger and distress. When in fact, that anger and distress is simply a measure of how socially marginalized you are in the PRESENT.

    People are socially marginalized when their life experiences and world views are delegitmated. This world is run by people who live by denial and deep lies.

    So you may think that this Narrative Therapist knows things that you don’t, and even knows more about your life than you do.

    Highly unlikely. And besides, you can learn things in other ways.

    The way people seem to learn the most is by engaging in principled conflict, not by confessing on the couch. Your therapist is not going to help you here, they are going to be an impediment. But if you want to restore your social and civil standing, you have to demonstrate willingness to punish perpetrators.

    Get involved in the fight to punish perpetrators, and obtain reparations for the survivors. This is what I am doing, and I learn much faster. With each battle, I learn a great deal.

    “The practice of psychotherapy is wrong, because it is profiting off of the misery of others.” And this book also deals with all manner of eclectic therapies, of which Narrative Therapy would be one.

    https://www.amazon.com/Against-Therapy-J-Moussaieff-Masson/dp/1567510221/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1511129253&sr=8-1&keywords=against+therapy

  • FDiscouraged wrote, “Mom’s therapist cured her depression by teaching her it was okay to be angry and she should pursue the career she wanted instead of trying to be the Perfect Housewife everyone at church wanted her to be.”

    Well, that may make it look like the therapist was good influence. But consider, what the therapist is really doing is convincing the client that there is no prevalent social injustice which requires redress.

  • Of course any mood altering chemical will likely create a physical and a psychological addiction.

    All the more so if someone is being told by therapists that they have be afraid of their feelings. This is usual way it goes when they think they can pin someone with the Bipolar or Schizophrenia label. Making them afraid of their own feelings binds them to the system.

    So while understanding how these drug withdrawls tend to go is important, it is even more important that no one be compounding the problem by telling the client that they have some sort of medical or moral defect. It is essential that never is there any support for Psychotherapy, Recovery, or Motivationalism.

    And thank you Dr. Gøtzsche for your work in trying to get these horrible drugs off of the market.

  • No there is no such thing as BPD, or any other mental illness.

    Having to attend muggle schools is in itself a form of abuse.

    When someone’s social and civil standing has long been denigrated, they will have trouble in lots of other areas. The worst are always intimate relationship, career building, and to some extent post secondary education. The reason for this is that these pertain to finding one’s place in the world. Also, people do discriminate on personal bases in employment, and all the more so in intimate relationships.

    Ones social and civil standing begin to be restored when someone starts to fight back against these sorts of marginalizations.

    But so long as one is dealing in Therapy, Recovery, or Motivationalim, one is still swimming in that realm of secondary abusers, using the idea that you have some sort of disorder or defect.

    The alternative is political consciousness raising and political activism.

    Start putting some therapists out of business.

    Get our government out of the Recovery Movement ( prisons, courts, public health dept’s. )

    Find ways to hold the original abusers responsible.

    Change the ways our schools operate.

  • The idea of transcending a psychological crisis is patent nonsense, because there is no such thing as a psychological crisis.

    Rather, there are simply situations when a persons legitimacy is being denied, and in the present, which leads them to have to withdraw in order to protect themselves. The remedy is to restore their social legitimacy, and psychotherapy and Recovery always work against this because the depend upon the idea that the subject has some sort of a problem.

    No such thing as a psychological crisis, no such thing as psychological anything. Everything is always caused by the society.

  • David, what your organization does is argue for Recovery, as opposed to Psychiatry. This is wrong, its being an Uncle Tom, its asking for pity.

    We should be Resisting, by arguing in public against anyone who promotes Therapy, Recovery, Healing, Motivationalism, or Religion. Instead we call upon survivors to reject all of these things. We call for an end to licensed Psychiatry and Psychotherapy and an end to their drugs. We also call for prosecution of anyone doing anything therapy like on a minor when that minor is not currently being represented by an attorney in court.

    And then as most of these cases do start as familial stigmatizing, the US needs to go where other industrialized countries already are, prohibiting disinheritance.

  • Julie, the issue is the middle-class family, not really what is considered as child abuse. I for one do not like to talk about child abuse because the concept is misleading. It refers to what is already recognized as abuse, and hence this is no longer that important.

    And also, if a psychotherapist says to you, “Your parents abused you.” He or she does not mean that your parents did something which requires redress, or that there are things about our society which require redress. That concept is alien to a therapist. He or she means that you have a malady. So of course you have every reason and duty to tell that therapist off with extreme prejudice.

  • “a knowledgeable professional who will just take the time it needs to listen and help work trough”

    But there you have the contradiction, once someone has been dubbed a professional, they are from then on the last person willing to listen. They have their doctrines.

    The way to find solidarity is not from the couch, it is shoulder to shoulder raising political consciousness and taking political actions.

    I helped put a perpetrator into our state penitentiary. I tried to bring other activists to the court room, tried very hard. But my efforts were for naught. The only person in the court room besides family and friends was myself.

    I had worked with clergy abuse activists. They can be very militant. But they would not even talk about this, a family molestation case.

    And the most obvious areas for activism are penalties for perpetrators and reparations for survivors, as well as what most every other industrialized nation has, a prohibition on disinheritance.

  • FDiscouraged wrote, “The successful therapies are only practiced on consenting people.”

    Well yes, but that should also mean informed consent.

    Did your therapist have you sign a paper which said,

    “Psychotherapy never does anything to redress the wrong of which you were subjected to. Rather it just helps you to learn to live in an unjust world without complaint, without even feeling your feelings.”

    And then of course any therapy done upon a child has to be considered without consent.

    Most middle-class child abuse is performed by using doctors of one sort or another. It is the licensing of the doctor which insulates both the doctor and the parents from being held accountable.

  • Moral therapy? That is based on the premise that the client suffers from some sort of a moral defect.

    This is exactly what therapy is based on today. It is simply the attempt to make the client live up to societal expectations.

    It is based on completely bogus premises.

    So yes, “THERAPY”, when they are talking about something moral, social, or psychological, is completely bogus. And we have Foucault to thank for the doing the hard work of exposing this.

  • Julie, no not everyone is taken to doctors by their parents as a minor. But why would someone take themselves to therapy as an adult unless they were receptive to the argument that there is ~something wrong with them~?

    Auntie Julie does not exist, well even if that is just a rejection of therapy, that still suggests that you were the scapegoat. Almost impossible that this kind of scapegoating did not start until you were an adult, or until you were in the mental health system.

    And of your therapists saying your parents were at fault. Well they are still saying that there is something wrong with you. And they are not going to help you achieve vindication, they are going to help you submit without protest. They have to say something like that to convince you that you need to be in their office, instead of doing something more productive. But these therapists are not going to help you come to political consciousness and then fight for justice.

    And yes, the Good Family People run the world, they believe in their lies and denial, and the ones who bear the cost of this are the children. And this is why the survivors suffer, because we continue to be delegitimated. We live in a world of lies and denial. The reason we suffer is not because we need Recovery or Therapy. Its because we have not organized and been able to fight to tangible gains, and we have not fought for penalties for perpetrators or reparations for survivors, and we have not been able to establish any alternative lifestyles which do not draw their social legitimacy via exploiting children.

    As far as therapy being covered by insurance, well I say we should abolished licensed psychiatry and psychotherapy, as well as get rid of their drugs.

    And Julie, you don’t actually think I would be so stupid as to say anything about myself and make myself a target for your pity, do you?

    And FDiscouraged, I am sorry about what happened to you in high school. Those kinds of situations must be dealt with. The less supported and validated someone is by their primary care takers, the more vulnerable they are going to be to shrinks. What you have already posted about concern over your taking your meds I see as strong evidence of your having been made the scapegoat. And almost certainly this had to have started before you ever saw any shrinks.

    People can exploit a child, use them, without ever engaging in anything which would be seen as physical or sexual abuse. They do it simply by triangulating around the child, making the child into the problem to be solved.

    With the man I helped put into our state penitentiary, he never said anything to me which directly indicated guilt of the charges of sexually molesting his daughters. But as I emphasized in each of my communications about the matter, I was just blown away by the amount of emotional energy this guy had invested scapegoating his eldest daughter. That indicates a long history of emotional abuse.

    And as I explained over and over, the reason this guy was molesting his daughters was not just for his own sexual gratification. No, it was also to harm them, so that they would have to come out like him and like the members of his church, thinking that their sexuality was dirty and that it had to be subjugated to monogamy and procreation, or they would burn in hell.

  • FDiscouraged wrote, “My family members LOVE to ask me if I’m taking my “meds” whenever I say something they find odd or annoying. They believe I’m “compliant” and started saying it years ago when I started on a tiny dose of Stellazine so my belief is they see it as a joke. They have no idea how hurtful I find it!”

    That right there indicates that in one form or another there has been a long history of abuse. Work with those who are fighting to keep the court house doors open, and to prevent disinheritance. That kind of a matter should be resolved in court, not in a therapists office. But kudos to you for posting about it, as you obviously are able to see that something is wrong.

    Right today, someone somewhere is driving their child to the doctor’s office.

  • Julie Green wrote, “Psychiatry actually believes in harming people that don’t agree with them, by first calling such people sick, then by “treating” them by forceful silencing, gag orders, threats, discrediting, locking up, shocking, and drugging.”

    Psychotherapy also believes in harming people, it just does it in different ways. It treats them as though they suffer from some kind of a malady, makes them wrong for feeling their feelings, and for not exonerating abusers, for not living up to the standards of the abusers. Psychotherapy is rooted in the denial systems of the practitioners.

    We should be fighting to eliminate license psychiatry and psychotherapy. The licensing does not protect the public. It protects the practitioner, and it protects the parents who are sending their child to see the practitioner. Imagine instead if it were a fortune teller or channeler. People would get in trouble. It is the license which stops this.

  • FDiscouraged wrote, “In 19th century America some Quakers practiced moral therapy on people out of touch with reality.”

    Psychotherapy and Recovery are nothing more than that ‘moral therapy’ today. Some call it living well. They are just teaching people to stuff their feelings and conform to social expectations. They are teaching people to live as Uncle Tom’s, by seeking pity.

  • James, people can decide for themselves how much they do or don’t want to be using devices like smart phones.

    For myself I don’t care for such small devices. Hard to see, hard to operate. I like desk top computers with large displays and full sized keyboards. Maybe it is age, maybe it is just what I am used to.

    But you are acting like there are some maladies which people suffer from, caused by things like smart phones. The position you are trying to advocate is wrong.

  • FDiscouraged wrote, “TF, the real problem with asking for pity or compassion is “normals” are usually too selfish and cold to give any. ”

    Well, it is ‘normals’ who run the world. It is not necessarily that they think differently. Rather, they have legitimated biographies, so their legitimacy is not challenged.

    Once one no longer accepts the lies and denial, then their legitimacy is always challenged.

    Pity is one of the most toxic things around. Maybe normal do not dispense that much of it. But therapists and the recovery movement do little but dispense pity.

    They do not stand with their clients. They look at their clients as poor unfortunates who still suffer from the malady of ‘anger’. So they want to cure us. They do not fight with us or for us. But they want to cure us.

    The only way to get beyond pity is to start standing up for ourselves, reject therapy, recovery, and motivationalism, and instead score some concrete gains. Score gains for ourselves, and for the children of today who are being subjected to the same kinds of exploitation.

  • If psychotherapists could still get away with it, they would still be telling juveniles that they are causing or imagining ongoing sexual molestation. They job of the therapist is to promote denial. Promoting their own denial is why people become therapists.

    What they do today is to convince the survivor that societal problems are their own personal problems, and that none of these are actually problem enough that they are worth doing anything about.

  • Kat, sorry to hear what you have gone through. All of these so called healers are simply turning the experience of injustice back onto the survivors and making it into their problem.

    The licensing of psychiatrists and psychotherapists does not protect the public, it protects these charlatans, and the original abusers.

    When someone puts their faith in a bogus cure for a bogus ailment, the results will often be horrible.

    We should be fighting to eliminate licensed psychiatry and psychotherapy, and then working to discredit life coaching, recovery, and motivationalism.

    The alternative to these secondary abusers is simply political consciousness raising and political action.

  • We don’t need to be picking sides in a battle for market share between the pro-drug and anti-drug white coats, or between the psychiatrists and psychotherapists.

    What we need to be doing is acting against the kinds of social injustices, particularly familial child exploitation, which so marginalize people. We should then be acting against all such therapists and healers as they are bogus, they try to turn the problems back onto the survivors so that they can propagate their own denial systems. Mental health and recovery turn your experience of injustice into a medical problem and a self-improvement project.

    The licensing of these secondary abusers, does not protect the public. It protects these white coats and the original abusers. So we should be working to eliminate licensed psychiatry and psychotherapy, and then to discredit life coaching, recovery, and motivationalism.

  • Yes people who have been used and abused and who live in an unjust world do experience crises and are often living with intense pain. But you speak of help? Well this is a treacherous area. Most of the time that help is being offered by people who want to turn the problems back on the survivor. What they are offering is pity. They do this because they need to defend their own denial systems, and they have found that they can gain an adult identity, as well as an income, by assuming a parental role. The language they use will usually be different. Our pedagogy manuals are re-written every decade, until now when they amount to a kind of ki**ie p*rn.

    And this is what these helpers offer, “Oh, I feel your pain, but your parents were just doing the best that they can. They did not know what is known now.” And then they start instructing from the current edition of the pedagogy manual. But all of these pedagogy manuals serve the adults, they give the adults a way to make themselves right. It is all bullshit. People that have more open relationships with their children do not read pedagogy manuals, and they are not interested in such. Pedagogy manuals are the work of the middle-class.

    So these helpers, like therapists, clergy, recoveryists, and motivationalists, they turn the problem back onto the survivor and try to re-parent them, according to today’s ideologies of course. And what else would one expect, when it is just therapy sessions in the ‘helper’s’ office.

    Survivors need human connection, as does anybody who is fighting to survive in a war zone. But that connection has to be with those who are fighting shoulder to shoulder with us, not those who are claiming to have some special new info, some good news of salvation, or some new denial system. It has to be with those who are fighting against the abusers, and who have the battle scars to prove it.

    Always ask, have your previous conflicts been in the Criminal Court, the Civil Court, the Family Court, or the Probate Court? And what did you attempt, and what did you accomplish?

    Have you engaged in any forms of direct action or direct intervention? What did you do, and what happened?

    If the answer is to be null, as it always will be for these would be helpers, then reject them with prejudice and put them on notice. Anyone who is not engaging in the fight is simply turning the problems back onto the survivors. They are trying to turn survivors into collaborators of the abusers. They are trying to finish the job of destruction that the abusers started.

    Survivors need to band together and take action. Otherwise we are just seeking pity. And we must have no tolerance for therapy, recovery, or motivationalism. Rather, we must make sure that these secondary predators are rejected. The more of them we can put out of business the better.

    Once you realize that you are a survivor, the first thing you do is stop discussing your personal affairs, saving that only for those rare cases where it helps to prove a point, or to help people understand why you acted against a current foe.

    Take for example a Sharey Karney, sexually molested as a baby. She was never able to take legal action against her own parents, but she started the move to lift SOL’s, and it is for this reason that such suits are common now, and especially against institutions like the Roman Catholic Church. No one would ever disbelieve Karney or try to lecture to her about the new editions of the pedagogy manual, or otherwise try to instruct her in the self-reliance ethic. Karney is a fighter. People know that they should not try to mess with her. I want all survivors to be held in this kind of respect.

    And of course we survivors should be setting up our own Foster Care Group Homes, taking those in, not so we can show them pity, but so we can strengthen them in becoming the new vanguard who stand strong against the abusers of middle-class family.

    Most of use were not able to defend ourselves against our parents. So we were harmed. But today, if we stand together and look for ways to act, we can shut down licensed psychiatry and psychotherapy, and largely discredit life-coaching, recovery, motivationalism, and religion. And we can start making sure that parents are held responsible and cannot blame it on their child, not in any situation.

    We survivors have been weakened, but if we are able to face the actual pain in our experience and do not succumb to these helper – predators, then we have greater strength, far greater strength, than the vast majority of the population.

  • Many people survive horrendous exploitation and abuse and still do not understand that this is so. Our society does not encourage such awareness and understanding. Actually, it problematizes it. The survivor gets no social benefit from recognizing and understanding the ways in which they were used, they only get more stigma. This is after all simply about power.

    Outlawing disinheritance takes the parental motive away, it shifts power back to the child.

  • Noel, others have looked at how other cultures allow greater latitude for suffering.

    But also consider, as long as you are calling it, “Psychological Crisis”, you are taking the position that such sufferers have a malady which needs to be cured. You are taking the position that their suffering is not really well founded, you are trivilizing it, problematizing them.

    This is only one of the indicators that survivors have not been doing a very good job of standing up for themselves, and also of why the whole project of Psychotherapy, Recovery, and Motivationalism is just plain wrong.

  • Well it is simply a matter of survivors starting to stand up for themselves, instead of allowing themselves to be prey for therapists, the Recovery Movement, life-coaches and motivationalists.

    How many Americans have been through a divorce from a spouse?

    Well how many Americans have cause to seek redress from abuser parents? How many have actually tried this? How many have prevailed?

    The road to justice is long. But every day standing up for yourself is better than living by seeking pity.

  • Julie, most child abuse is rationalized in the mind of the parent, as being for the good of the child. Said child is the designated scapegoat.

    Knowing that the law will prohibit disinheritance, as it does now in most every industrialized country with but one glaring exception, would go a long way towards stopping the abuse. It nullifies the motivation, and the profit motive as well.

    And prohibiting disinheritance would be a first step in giving justice to the survivors. Without that the survivors still have to live in that very small space of legitimacy which the abusers have left them, and likely being preyed upon by psychotherapists and motivationalists at the same time.

  • FeelinDiscouraged , I have helped to get a father who was sexually abusing his daughters convicted and incarcerated in our state penitentiary. The opportunity availed itself to me, and I decided that one does not ignore burning bushes.

    And of course what were the parents trying to do? Send the three girls to psychotherapy, Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing Therapy, to help them rid themselves of such ‘painful false memories”.

    So I was heavily involved with the case for over 2 years, and though he is not in the state pen., I am still tracking his appeals attempts.

    It isn’t just a matter of pedophiles. Those people get news coverage because they are not the parents. When it is within the family, and especially parents still married, housed, and financially solvent, very rarely is their any penalty. I learned this and learned why from my involvement in this case.

    And then when you talk about say, emotional or psychological abuse, almost never is their any penalty, except maybe for when the child kills the parent. Then sometimes people will side with the child.

    So we have to start standing up for the child in familial conflicts. And the most basic way to do this is to do what they have done in most every other industrialized nation except for the US, prohibit disinheritance.

  • “simple human act of striving to survive or live well into your idea of a demon”

    If someone’s social and civil standing have been nullified, then they should and will feel distress, and likely anger. People need to restore their ability to trust their own feelings.

    Therapy, life-coaching, motivationalism, and talk about healing are con games, they are telling people not to trust their own feelings, but instead to listen to an ideology of denial. They are being told that they should learn to live without complaint in an unjust world.

    In France such a person would be called a collaborator. Because we in the US have a different history, such a person is called an Uncle Tom.

    Uncle Toms are hated, and with good reason. The people who are respected are those like Frederick Douglas, Nat Turner, Harriet Tubman, and John Brown.

    So when you are 80 years old do you want to say, I spent most of my life living with my parents before I finally realized that they were abusing me, and I spent most of my life on psychiatric medications, and then with psychotherapists and life coaches? I was trying to recover and live well.

    Or would you rather say, I spent most of my adult life fighting in a war on behalf of the survivors of abuse. I vanquished foes in great numbers. And because of that I have been able to claim my rightful place in this world, rather than having to live in the very very small space which the abusers tried to leave for me, a situation which leads many to suicide.

    A victim goes to the police station to report that they were raped. What the desk officer tells them is, “You sure came to the right place. We have therapists and life-coaches on duty 24 hours a day to help you recover from your condition and to get beyond all this anger.”

    The bright light today is that some people are starting to sue their psychotherapists.

    http://www.lanterlaw.com/practice-areas/psychiatric-psychologist-malpractice-attorney-los-angeles/

    https://www.wmlawyers.com/personal-injury-practice/therapist-abuse-pp/transference-counter-transference/

    Now, these therapy malpractice attorneys are still saying Good Therapist – Bad Therapist. I do not agree that there ever could be a good therapist, because the entire enterprise is wrong and is based on exploiting survivors. But at least this is a start. And these attorneys mostly want to sue licensed psychotherapists, not life coaches or anyone else, because the former likely have insurance. But this is still a good start.

    And these attorney’s are mostly looking at “transference”. In part his is because of what has already been established in case law. And it is rightly recognized that that is where the therapist has lots of power.

    It if a Freud idea. To put it in more simple language, at some point the client will realize that they have been spilling their guts to someone who only wants to use it all against them, and usually just like their parents did. The therapist is another abuser, and the client sees this and they are pissed. Its just that Freud wants to vindicate the parents and the therapist, so he puts it back on the client.

    So the client either submits, like they probably did with their parents, or in those very rare cases they tell the therapist off, and maybe now even file a lawsuit.

    If anyone wants to share info about one of these lawsuits, I would love to hear about it. If anyone wants to file such a lawsuit I would love to be able to help in anyway possible. And if you are an attorney, I would love to be able to help you do what you do.

    Now it is hard to outlaw talk between consenting adults. And a therapist’s license does not protect the public, it protects the license holder, and this is especially malicious when it comes to children not currently being represented by an attorney in an open court case.

    But even though we cannot outlaw talk between consenting adults, if one of those parties then comes to see that they have been conned and taken advantage of, buy all means sue.

    And meanwhile the survivors of abuses need to band together, reject all forms of therapy and recovery with the highest possible level of prejudice, and instead work for obtaining justice. There is no way of living well until you are able to stand up for yourself in public. Otherwise you are just helping the abusers and their therapist and life-coach accomplices.

  • That’s right, the mental health system and the recovery movement have poisoned our entire culture. Even if someone is not being subjected to electro shock or drugs, then they are getting psychotherapy, life coaching, or they are being told that they need to work on themselves to recovery from their malady.

    But never are they told the truth, simply that they need to stand up for themselves. They need to stand up to the historic abusers and to people who function in similar capacities today, and they need to stand up but good to all the therapists.

    If your social and civil standing have been damaged, you will feel distress and likely justified anger. You have to see this anger as your compass. The way to restore your social and civil standing is to fight back and score some tangible victories. Even if you cannot do this, at least you should be able to join forces with others and put up a good fight. But if you let the therapists have at you, then its just abuse survivors abusing each other.

  • “The goal of any ethical psychotherapy is not to tranquilize the patient but rather to free him or her”

    But this is the opposite of what psychotherapy does. Rather, it continues to make people believe that their aggression and sexuality are wrong, and that these are the source of the problem.

    Psychotherapy teaches people to submit to an unjust world without complaint. It teaches them to believe that anytime there is a problem, it is they themselves who are at fault.

    Your psychotherapist is not your friend, they are a secondary abuser. Your psychotherapist has not put abusers into prison, sued them for their last dollar, or hunted them down across continents and across oceans to bring them to justice. Your psychotherapist is not going to inflict penalties on the abusers or obtain reparations for the survivors.

    Right now, if educated middle-class parents are abusing their child about all they have to fear is that the child will spend the rest of their life on the therapist’s couch confessing about how angry they are.

  • “Abusive relationships, extreme poverty, homelessness, and social ostracism are some very real causes of mental suffering”

    Yes, these are causes of suffering. Really, its anytime your survival is being threatened because you are being marginalized. Its an evolutionary response.

    The remedy is to fight back, usually with comrades to restore your social and civil standing.

    MIA does a great job of exposing the harm causes by psychiatric medications. But psychotherapy, the recovery movement, life-coaching, and self-improvement are also very harmful too. They are another layer of abuse that survivors get subjected to, rather than being encourage to fight back and restore their social and civil standing, their honor.

    Familial abuses should be handled in a court of law, not a psychotherapist’s office.

  • The Recovery Movement is alive and well, strong as ever. Most of the people at the bottom of the socio-economic hierarchy are always being subjected to it, and usually they go along with it. Often government authority and money behind it.

    It is also usually used to destroy the boundary between church and state. Its basic premises are just a re-working of the doctrine of original sin.

    Good book:
    https://www.amazon.com/Rocking-Cradle-Sexual-Politics-Happened/dp/0201624710/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1509745030&sr=8-1&keywords=louise+armstrong+what+happened+when+women+said+incest

    Explains how in the 1970’s feminists surfaced the pervasiveness of incest. But in the 1980’s that got converted into a malady to be recovered from, hence neutralizing the political impact.

  • Right now there is zero solidarity among survivors. Everyone looks to psychiatry, psychotherapy, recovery, motivationalism, life coaching, and religion, to somehow fix them. Survivors seem not to understand that all of this is nothing less than subjecting say a rape victim, to additional rapes.

    Survivors do not understand that all of these healers are absolutely powerless because they have not faced their own pain. They have made zero attempts to redress the wrongs committed against themselves. Rather, they have found that if they preach dissociation and feel good, then they can not only propagate their denial systems, they can also rake in money.

    No amount of confessing in the psychiatrist’s or psychotherapist’s office can ever restore your social standing. Same thing for the recovery circle, nothing could ever restore your social standing.

    So of course you will continue to feel distress. Anyone who tells you that you should not be feeling distress is just another abuser.

    The only way any of us will ever be able to do anything to restore our social and civil standing is to act publicly, usually with close allies, to bring about justice. That means penalties for the perpetrators and reparations for the survivors.

  • So Yoko, you see that I don’t go along with the denial systems which underlie psychotherapy, recovery, and life coaching, and so you try to impugn me? You think that because this is online instead of f2f that you can do that?

    Still involved with the mental health, therapy, recovery system? Oh no! What I am saying is that all any of them do is turn a survivor’s experience of injustice into a self improvement project. It all works rather like the religious concept of Original Sin.

    And the homeless, these are some of the most severely abused people in our society. There is no such thing as mental illness, there is merely justice for survivors which has been long delayed.

    Robert Whittaker has written some great books. He shows how the so called ‘mental illness’ epidemic is created by the psychiatric system and its medications. I for one don’t need to read a book to see that. But his books nevertheless are extremely important for convincing those who still don’t get it.

    I did not though see anything in his books which endorsed the idea of therapy or recovery?

    And it is unfortunate that this forum has long been taken over by people who avoid facing the truth in their experience by letting therapists and the recovery movement convince them that the problem lies within themselves. I have seen nothing in Whittaker’s writings which supports this. It is only on this forum, as it is on most all Recovery Forums, that people seem to believe this, and are often profiting from it.

    And Steve, feeling exuberant is great. Lots of people get that with things like heroin and ethanol. Denial produces this, and this is why people go for denial, they are addicted to the emotional high. It might even by something like the endorphins which opiates mimic.

    But some people also get it from simply the knowledge that though justice has been delayed, eventually, working with others, they will be able to obtain justice.

    Telling people that the problem lies within themselves, and it is because they are ‘angry’, or ‘carrying things around with them’, or ‘fixated on the past’, is simply another layer of abuse, and a very severe one. And in fact, online is one of the most dangerous venues because people will try to abuse in ways which they know not to try f2f.


    Hardly any of the ‘symptoms’ of psychological distress may correctly be seen as medical matters. The so-called psychiatric ‘disorders’ are nothing to do with faulty biology, nor indeed are they the outcome of individual moral weakness or other personal failing. They are the creation of the social world in which we live, and that world is structured by power.
    Social power may be defined as the means of obtaining security or advantage, and it will be exercised within any given society in a variety of forms: coercive (force), economic (money power) and ideological (the control of meaning). Power is the dynamic which keeps the social world in motion. It may be used for good or for ill.
    One cannot hope to understand the phenomena of psychological distress, nor begin to think what can be done about them, without an analysis of how power is distributed and exercised within society. Such an understanding is the focus of this web-site.

    http://davidsmail.info/introfra.htm

    The ability to abuse survivors, by telling them about healing, forgiveness, and other forms of denial, is an exercise of power. It can be done f2f, like in the therapist’s office, or it can be one online. Either way it produces distress.

    I am not aware that Robert Whittaker ever does this in any of his books. But in online forums, like this one, it is endemic because people are attached to their denial systems. And often this is most extreme in therapists, life coaches, motivationalists, pedagogues, and clergy.

    When someone sees that they are being marginalized, they will feel distress. This is not a moral or medical failing on their part. It is an evolutionarilly developed response when one’s life is being placed at risk.

    The way survivors can prevent marginalization is not by learning to practice lies and denial and to abuse other survivors. No, the way is by organizing and standing up for themselves. And a great place to start is by exposing therapists, life-coaches, etc, and exposing all the denial systems in play, and all the ways that the vulnerable, like children and survivors are being preyed upon.

    And then of winning justice, even in limited form, there is no exuberance like that. In fact, there is nothing which opens life doors, like finally through hard effort being able to obtain justice against oppressors.

  • If you live in an unjust world, you either find ways of fighting back, or you just become a collaborator.

    I stand with those who have fought back, like in the Warsaw Ghetto. They lived and they died with honor.

    Talking about ‘healing’, is just a way of further abusing survivors. The survivor does not have any healing to do. They feel distress because their social and civil standing has been trashed. They should feel distressed as their survival is being threatened.

    Once they are able to fight back and make some gains, they fill feel exuberant. Believe me, I know.

    Telling people that they need healing will must make them more tuned out and more distressed. They could even end up killing themselves, like Matthew Warren, 27yo, youngest child of Rick and Kay Warren of the Saddleback Church.

    I stand with and for survivors, and this means taking definite actions to fight back, and practicing zero tolerance with anyone who preaches therapy, life coaching, motivationalism, or healing.

  • The mental health people are not going to tell you that you have been used. And therapists and recovery people are not going to help you learn how to fight back and restore you social and civil standing.

    They all want you to believe that the problem is because of you. And so yes, this does often result in mortality.

    The best doctors, the best medications, the best therapists, the best people praying for him.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG-IK2kXCQI

    And now Warren has an org devoted to making people believe that they suffer from ~Mental Illness~

  • The history of Western Philosophy moves back and forth between Dualism and Monism, starting with the Dualist Plato and the Monist Aristotle.

    One important Monist is Baruch Spinoza, likely practitioner of Kabbalah too.

    Today we have Gilles Deleuze.

    As I reported on one of your earlier threads, Franz Brentano had two famous students, one was Sigmund Freud, the other was Edmund Husserl. It is from this second that we get Heidegger and Merleau-Ponty. Particularly with this latter, we get a much better way of looking at things than we ever did with Freud.

    The Deleuze and Guattari book which is more like Merleau-Ponty is their Logic of Sense.

    Psychotherapy and the Recovery Movement have been built on completely bogus philosophical premises, and this is only part of their problem.

    Some offer ‘Philosophical Counseling’ as the alternative to ‘Psychological Counseling’. It is an improvement. For one thing it can be whatever you want it to be.

    But still, what is better is not any kind of counseling, but rather the chance to educate oneself and to be active in political struggle. You learn, when you are actually trying to take action and hence are forced to make critical judgments, like for example about putting someone in prison. And you learn in that you are forced to find ways of communicating to ordinary people.

  • We must start with zero tolerance for Therapy, Life Coaching, Motivationalism, and Salvation Seeking, and by getting legal action against such where ever possible.

    Nothing hurts one more than failure to act where action is clearly called for.

    Right now today, someone is being worked on by therapists, psychiatrists, and prayer warriors, all accomplices of the parents, and the results are as you would expect:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNJubAijOT0

  • “Getting an apology and reparations would be helpful and are necessary . ”

    The apology is almost impossible, and meaningless. Most of the time you’ll be dealing with people who are senile and suicidal. They want you to kill them.

    But reparations could be. The United States is just about the only industrialized nation where it is possible for a parent to disinherit their child.

    “the best ones come when we are relaxed and at peace with ourselves .” And yes, this is the major mind fuck perpetrated against survivors.

  • “Resorting to violence except in self defence could be the continuation of an unwanted cycle.”

    Always reasons for not acting. Remember, I have not specifically advocated violence. You Fred Abbe are the one who talks about it. I suspect that this is because you know that violence is being done to survivors everyday, and you don’t want to deal with it.

    Therapy and recovery are based on lies and abuse, on making survivors believe that they are the problem. This creates an economic underclass who are subjected to all manner of violence every day. This underclass is then attacked using social darwinist and eugenic arguments. Our entire economic system runs on these kinds of arguments.

    Harriet Tubman had been committed to non-violence. Even John Brown had been committed to non-violence.

    Martin Luther King did not understand Gandhi, except maybe during the last year of his life. King went on thinking that non-violence was about claiming moral superiority. He did not understand that Gandhi’s doctrine of satyagraha, meaning applying pressure, meant creating problems, forcing the other side to act, and likely violently. Gandhi talked about non-violence while in an extreme explosive mix of violence ready to erupt at any time. As Cornell West put it, for Gandhi, non-violence was a tactic, not a strategy.

    “I don’t know whether or not my men can kill”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVF7YGe0org

  • “not adding hurt on to ourselves”

    In most cases this is impossible, believing it is just another part of the denial.

    We live in an unjust world, a world committed to denial, and a world committed to abusing survivors with therapy, recovery, and more lies.

    So just like most all people who are born into wars, we either fight, and maybe die, or we become collaborators.

    Claude Berr

    P1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zdzf5aQd9k
    P2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnmlBs9yCkg
    P3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BPWoYzphFE

  • ” living well is the best revenge ”

    That’s the best cop out. It is also a lie. When your social and civil standing are seriously compromised, the only way you can regain that standing is by taking effective action and vanquishing foes. You either fight, or you become an Uncle Tom.

    The abuses of the middle-class family continue 365 days per year. Our society is run by those who preach the Good Family, and usually make lots of money from this. They get to walk all over anyone who doesn’t practice the same denial and child exploitation systems they do.

    And we get walked on when we are lectured to about therapy and recovery, and about how our anger is wrong. And we are walked on because our lives don’t look like the lives of those who have practiced denial and abused survivors.

    The way we restore our social and civil standing is by demonstrating prowess in how we vanquish foes.

    I helped put one perpetrator in prison. That has given me more social and civil standing than I have ever had in my entire life. And in so doing I also discredited a number of psychotherapists and a church, as they were on the side of the perpetrator.

    Now I am engaged in political conflicts at the ground level on a daily basis. My foes are powerful, but I am slowly winning, and I am gaining social legitimacy on a daily basis.

    If I went the lies and denial route, I would be in my therapist’s office punching pillows and screaming at them, making ritual testimony to my own impotence, until I was so numb I could not feel anything. I would be then what my parent’s, and what all parents, what their child to be.

    The most important step at this point is to rally survivors committed to zero tolerance for psychotherapy, life coaching, motivationalism, or salvation seeking, and instead for reparations for the survivors and penalties for the perpetrators. And therapists, life coaches, and motivationalists are most definitely perpetrators.

  • And right here we have Fred Abbe demonstrating for us exactly what the problem with psychotherapy and recovery are. Not at all coincidentally these are also the problems with religion, and psychotherapy has never been very far from that, supposedly a liberalized version of it judging by Freud.

    An excessive fear of one’s own impulses and desires, believing that they are wrong. So if you feel anger, then you have a self-improvement project ahead of you in making that anger go away, instead of becoming aware that you need to act to correct the injustice which is causing the anger.

    And instead of learning to use your anger, and learning what is effective, be it just issuing a verbal rebuke, or bit it fighting in a revolution, your are afraid to learn, afraid to try. Afraid of your own anger, defining that as the problem, just like Freud.

    Now given that acting on your anger could kill innocent people, or you could get yourself killed, or into the very highest levels of trouble, it is essential that we all study and learn and find out what is effective, and then act.

    But no, those influenced by psychotherapy, Freud, recovery, or religion will not act. They are afraid of their own feelings. They have been made this way, and this alone is their real sickness.

    What else is it to be an adult than to act when needed?

    Fortunately there have been some who have done so:

    To Live And Die With Honor
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhlwy6d8vBk

    But as long as we have therapy and recovery, the survivors of abuse will continue to abuse each other, finishing the job that the parents attempted, and promoting the same self-reliance ethic that the parents were committed to. After all there are very financially successful survivors such as Oprah Winfrey, and so we are to practice denial so that we can become like them.

    The real crime committed by therapists and the recovery movement is simply that they harm people, they make them feel that they themselves are the problem, and they make them feel that the only way to redeem themselves is to practice so much denial that they are no longer capable of being angry anymore.

    The anguish which most people feel on a daily basis is not the direct result of childhood abuses of long ago. Rather, it is the life affirming and very positive impulse arising from the compromised civil and social standing. Any time a survivor is told about therapy and recovery, that is further abuse. Any time a survivor is told about the Good Family and about new pedagogies, that is more abuse, as it is all based on lies and denial.

    Really we are all survivors because we live in a world which is built on child exploitation. So it really divides down into those who support the exploitation and do so by preaching the new pedagogies, and those few of us who do not support it.

    So we must make sure than when ever these therapists do any of the following that there are legal consequences for the therapist:

    1. Forced procedures
    2. Drugging
    3. ECT, Lobotomy etc.
    4. Acting on children who are not currently being represented by an attorney in court. These have to be considered forced procedures, and being an accomplice to the parents, because the therapist has zero authority over the parent, and so they are aiding in child sacrifice.

  • The ways to oppose the psychiatric system are simply to refuse to cooperate, and then finding further ways of fighting back.

    But talk of therapy, recovery and healing are simply turning it back on the survivor, turning justice into a self-improvement project.

    And any psychotherapy done on a minor when that minor is not currently being represented in court by an attorney, is simply accomplice child abuse. The therapist has zero authority over the parents, and is actually a hired minion for the parents.

  • So what we need to do is fight back. But this is impossible to do the way that MindFreedom tries.

    First of all they seek pity. Their main concern is in convincing people not to oppose the ‘mentally ill’. MindFreedom goes along with the concept of mental illness, that there are people who cannot be trusted to use good judgement. So in stead of following every other group fighting for social justice, MindFreedom expects its members to accept a serious stigma.

    And remember, primarily this is about creating an economically stratified society. The claim is that the mentally ill somehow lack what it takes to live in this world. So when you pledge non-violence, you are supporting this kind of psuedo science eugenics attack.

    Mostly those who have been such rejected, were rejected by the middle-class family. This may or may not have involved doctors. More often than not, it does. Being the family scapegoat makes one far more likely to end up in the hands of white coats.

    And then everytime talk is make of therapy, recovery, or healing, this is turning it back on the survivor. MindFreedom goes along with this.

    Study history, learn how people have defined themselves in order to resist oppression.

    Learn from history:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rih3EYj-pYY

  • Noel, You wrote, “Most people who enter the mental health field do so with good intentions.”

    I could not possibly be in stronger disagreement with you. People go into psychiatry, psychotherapy, and counseling so that they can assume a parental role with people, and thus give themselves an adult identity. They can become like their own parents were with them. Now of course the language and terminology will be updated. But therapy, recovery, and healing are always of turning everything back against survivors and crushing them.

    So there are always again two choice, either find ways to fight back or become a collaborator. Those who go into mental health and psychotherapy are pursuing the latter.

    So it doesn’t matter if they mean well or not, or if they are willing to listen. What we need to do is find ways of blocking them.

  • Always sad to hear of such a suicide. I suspect that Matt had been led to believe in the lies of Therapy, Recovery, and Healing, which all turn it back on the survivor themselves, rather than in learning how to fight back.

  • YetAnotherAccount,

    So I read your two above posts. Are you endorsing therapy, recovery, or healing? If you are then you are endorsing lies and denial. If someone has two broken legs then that is the way it is. But having survived societal abuses, no one can possible every heal because the source of those abuses is our society itself. If you are telling people that they need to heal, then you are telling them a lie, telling them that it is their awareness and honesty itself which are the problem.

    When you live in an unjust world, you either find ways to fight back, or you become an accomplice abuser yourself.

    Therapy, Recovery, and Healing are simply the survivors abusing each other, in order to be able to stay in denial themselves.

    My two replies to Tina:
    https://www.madinamerica.com/2017/10/un-to-usa-forced-treatment-prohibited/#comment-116802

  • Tina, Thank you for replying to me, and I appreciate the work that you are doing. It is so much better to be talking to lawyers than therapists. And I completely agree with your statement,

    “Therapy or recovery is not a remedy for forced treatment, the remedy is abolition and a full and comprehensive effort to make reparations to victims/survivors.”

    The matter is gravely serious. Consider this guy:

    http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/10/23/opinion-if-counties-invested-more-in-treating-mental-illness-public-safety-would-improve/

    You also wrote, “The first step of reparations is to stop the violations and guarantee that they won’t continue…”

    Of course I agree fully. But this opens the door to seeing the further ramifications, so long as survivors are being lectured to about Recovery, Therapy, Healing, Peace of Mind, and Happiness, they are still being abused.

    No one heals from the effects of living in an unjust world, while they are still living in it. Rather, the source of the harm is still there and still active.

    The middle-class family would not exist if it were not empowered to and expected to maim and scar children.

    So there is never anything like healing as long as this goes on. And therapy and 12-step grops are simply agents of this middle-class family and its value system.

    So no, if you live in an unjust and abusive world, you either find ways to fight back, or you become a colaborator with the abusers.

    A woman walks into a police station to report that she was raped. The desk officer asks her if she has looked at all the ways that she might have caused this. Then she is told about therapy, healing, recovery, 12 step groups, and about how all of this will help her to have peace of mind and happiness.

    This is what anti-rape activists have long and correctly called second rape. Talk about therapy, recovery, and healing are exactly the same things.

    So we must oppose them.

    So you fight against force psychiatric procedures, do you go along with someone who suggests therapy?

    NO!

    How about Recovery and Healing and self improvement?

    NO!

    How about religion and salvataion?

    NO!

    How about Peace of Mind and Happiness?

    NO!

    How about Heroin, Psychiatric Medications, Methamphetamines, and Marijuana?

    NO!

    The only things you to along with are penalties for the perpetrators and reparations to the survivors.

    My replies to Chalya and Steve
    https://www.madinamerica.com/2017/10/child-abuse-mental-health-mental-illness/

  • And when you talk about “powerful people like Oprah Winfrey”, you are again promoting denial, turning the problem back upon survivors, and making fitting into society the goal of life.

    One thing good about Winfrey is that she did identify perpetrators publicly.

    But how about people who have taken effective actions to hold perpetrators accountable, like for example the Attorney Sharey Karney, and then of course Patty Reagan Davis. The latter is one who was dealing with ‘only’ emotional abuse. So lots of people made verbal attacks against Davis. And Davis has had her own difficulties, but this did not stop her.

    I guess Chalya and Steve would lecture her about healing, peace of mind, and happiness. Fortunately Davis did not listen to any people like either of you.

    You two, what you put out is just like heroin. It is a lie, the idea that one can live a good life without taking redress in every possible available way.

    Sure, punch pillows in your therapist’s office, but don’t ever do anything which could negatively impact perpetrators, you have to live up to your parents’ expectations. Even if they did somethings wrong, you still have to live up to the self-reliance ethic.

    I hope neither of you are making money off of counseling sessions. And I ask, are either of you doing counseling sessions with children, cases where the child is not presently being represented by an attorney in court?

  • Steve McCrea, Thank you for replying. Yes, kids end up in foster care. And yes, all kinds of physical and sexual abuses occur. But the reason the kids end up in foster care is that our society knows that these things are WRONG.

    But, foster care does not even deal with emotional abuse. And you are correct in explaining all the ways well off people can avoid the authorities.

    But Steve, when you talk about the problem as one of healing, and describe these things as scars, and talk then about achieving happiness and peace of mind, your are making the same fundamental mistakes that Chaya is making, turning the problem back on the survivor.

    These abuses, the physical, sexual, and psychological, are not aberrations. They are a built in part of our society and the middle class family. Most people realize that physical and sexual abuse are wrong. But most still accept psychological abuse because they don’t call it abuse. The middle-class family exists because people have children in order to use them.

    So when you or Chaya talk about scars, and healing, and peace of mind and happiness, you are siding with the parents and promoting denial and continuing abuse.

    No one heals from systemic abuses, and no one should try to. Talking about healing is just another layer of abuse.

    If you live in an unjust world, your either find ways to resist and fight back, or you instead collaborate with the abusers, as you Steve and you Chaya are.

  • Of course ECT must be eradicated. But also, never cooperate with anyone promoting therapy or recovery as the remedy for psychiatric abuses.

    Any therapy or recovery ‘treatments’ performed upon a minor when that minor is not currently being represented by an attorney in court, is extreme abuse and should be legally punished as such.

    Anyone who works with children and shields the parents of children being subjected to therapy or recovery, is committing a serous felony, and this must be prosecuted as such.

  • Thank you Tina for posting this.

    Remember also, never cooperate or promote anyone advocating Therapy or Recovery as the remedy for forced treatment.

    And any ‘treatments’ done on a minor when that minor is not currently being represented by an attorney in court, is forced treatment and should be considered crime against humanity, with the most severe of penalties.

  • If someone hasn’t already said this, Wittengstein’s argument against private language, I feel would be relevant here.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_language_argument

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/private-language/

    Hubert Dreyfus just recently passed away, but this paper, Merleau-Ponty as opposed to Freud I have always found insightful.
    http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~hdreyfus/pdf/Alternative%20(Word98).pdf

  • Chaya, you wrote, “These questions would heal. They would bring us back together with the truth of who we are, who we were, who we could have been if we had not lived with chronic fear, shaming and physical assault.”

    I say you are completely off base.

    Most child abuse is no longer physical. The people who hit children will usually end up being handled by law enforcement, one way or another.

    The people who are above the law are the well off and educated. They read books. They consider themselves above those who hit children. They know what they can get away with and what will make them look good. When this fails, they open the Yellow Page and find a child therapist. The abuse is psychological.

    Go to a big chain book store and look at the pedagogy manuals. They tell people to have children and often use the images of children to sell the book. Chlld exploitation is a huge business, and it caters to those educated and well off and who would never hit a child.

    So they have children, as that makes themselves look good and maintains marital peace, just like buying a new car or a new washing machine or dryer.

    So no one ever ‘heals’ from being used like this. How could anyone ever heal when they live in a world of continual abuse and denial. They are being further abused anytime anyone tells them about therapy and healing, or about forgiveness. Even the concepts of healing, therapy, and forgiveness are just more abuse being perpetrated on survivors.

    If you live in a world based on lies, denial, and abuse, there are only two ways to go. Either you find ways to resist, fight back, and punish the perpetrators, or you decide that it is easier to collaborate with the perpetrators.