Monday, September 25, 2017

Comments by humanbeing

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  • My concern with this article, Monica, is that it seems to support what the federal government has been claiming for decades.

    I’m with you about legalization of all drugs‚Ķand I never meant to imply that pot cannot be a ‘bad trip’ for some folks. The comments inspired by this article are frightening to me‚Ķand seem to have an agenda other than just ‘warning’ folks of the possible dangers from using cannabis products. I also think psych/pharma drugs, which are legal, cause way more damage to unsuspecting and trusting ‘consumers’ than pot ever did.

    I’m also reacting to my one experience in the county ‘crisis’ unit after a brutal separation from my abusive husband. I was monitored closely for ‘marijuana’ use when out in the world fulfilling my only part-time job at the time. The staff couldn’t understand why I would drive a half hour to do this job if it didn’t involve my injesting marijuana somehow. Except I wasn’t. I was keeping with a routine that gave me a modicum of meaning while in a state of chaos.

  • Again, as I stated above, I lived in an area whose economy revolved around marijuana. In my non-scientific, personal opinion, I saw FAR MORE damage from alcohol and methamphetamine than I ever did pot.

    Pot is smoked by *all kinds* of people, not just bums and deadbeats. Humans have been altering their consciousness for millennia! Herbs and plants have been used in rituals and ceremony for eons! Pharmaceuticals cause far more damage than pot, imo.

    Those who go on to other recreational drugs and become addicted have more going on in their social milieu that predisposes them to escape their pain with drugs. *gateway drug* HOW QUAINT!

    Who funds this author? Who funds these naysayers? Who is threatened by legalization? Cui bono?

    The history of the criminalization of marijuana is an interesting one; it has everything to do with threatened industries and not much to do with ‘protecting’ the public.

    If I wasn’t feeling so impaired after my years of psych meds, I’d give out some links, but in my world all this is common knowledge.

    You new commenters; where did you come from and who do you work for???

  • Dr. K

    I wish I could recall where I found the link, somewhere on this site tho. It was an article by a fellow ‘mental health’ professional, and you stated in the comments something to the effect that forced treatment was sometimes necessary.

    Have you revised your views?

    My brain is still not up to par after a slow taper from long term prescribed Klonopin, but I’m pretty sure I read that comment/sentiment by you somewhere. I’m interested in getting to know you, and your views on forced treatment would be welcome as part of my personal evaluation. I’m sure many of us who populate the MiA site would be interested as well.

  • Kristina
    Heartbreaking, with echoes of my own experience but somehow managing to escape the suicide. The doubling down on the ‘medication’ bit seems to be the protocol–where do they get such outlandish advice? The drug reps?

    My mission in life at this point is to educate as many as possible about these horrible drugs. I grieve for all the losses incurred as a result of the profit motive. Isn’t it funny what is considered to be ‘normal’ (profits more important than life)?

  • But it’s not the CORRECT term for what’s happened to us! If there’s ever to be any sort of support from ‘the medical community’, it needs to be recognized and not blurred with a whole ‘nother phenomena. ‘Detox’ clinics do not work for those of us who have become dependent on psych meds, and that is generally all that’s available to us when we decide to get off our prescribed ‘medications’.

  • I have never, ever, had the urge to take any benzo after finally ending my taper. I don’t think many of us with PAWS do. I tried NA for support earlier in my process and I found it to be not helpful: I am not an addict, and I won’t ever confess to being one. It isn’t about stigma, it’s about the language we use, and the terms are important when it comes to helping those with ID from benzo use.

  • Eat your GMO/Round-upTM factory farmed watered with fracking well water food, and shaddup! It’s GOOD for ya!

    Did you know that commercial wheat is sprayed after harvest with Round-up as a desiccant? Yummmmm! Did you know that the wheat commercially grown these days has 4x the number of genes than what our ancestors cultivated? Gluten sensitivity and celiac disease are two different things…

    Look it up.

  • I went thru it and lived.

    No drugs‚ĶI just white knuckled it. It does ease off after a period of time (for me about 3 months). I DID get some acupuncture done, and that seemed to help a bit with the sleep, but eventually I had to learn some self-soothing techniques: meditation, taking one moment at a time, distraction, exercise as tolerated-and getting outside. There’s lots of support online i.e. “Surviving Antidepressants” and “BenzoBuddies” and others. You are stronger than you think! It IS hell. And for me it continues to be hellish when waves of symptoms hit, but there have been windows of time when I almost feel normal, and that keeps me going. All of it unpredictable with no time-frame.
    Coming off psych drugs is not for the faint of heart. It’s your choice, it’s your body. I just wanted my brain back and not be a slave to BigPharmaTM. You also might want to check out Robert Whitaker’s “Anatomy of an Epidemic”‚ĶI stumbled on a review of it in the NYRB, and the lightbulb went on; my whole experience with psychiatry there on the pages.
    Good luck to you.

  • What’s annoying about the ‘think positive’ thing is this: it DENIES the room for discussion about what’s going on with a person. It cuts off communication. The message really is, “SHUT UP ABOUT IT ALREADY”.

    Fuck that.

    Bright Sided is very good, and gets to the political roots of when and where all this ‘think positive’ stuff seeped into the culture.

  • It’s actually quite difficult to OD on just benzos.

    from Wikipedia:
    The oral LD50 (lethal dose in 50% of the population) of diazepam is 720 mg/kg in mice and 1240 mg/kg in rats.[19] D. J. Greenblatt and colleagues reported in 1978 on two patients who had taken 500 and 2000 mg of diazepam, respectively, went into moderately deep comas, and were discharged within 48 hours without having experienced any important complications, in spite of having high concentrations of diazepam and its metabolites desmethyldiazepam, oxazepam, and temazepam, according to samples taken in the hospital and as follow-up.[68]

    Overdoses of diazepam with alcohol, opiates and/or other depressants may be fatal.[67][69]

    They were considered to be much safer than barbiturates when they came out in the late 50s and early 60s‚Ķsee “Mother’s Little Helper”

  • Thanks, Cole, for your refutation of Dr. Shipko’s benzo stance.

    As another benzo/SSRI/SNRI/’mood stabilizer’ merry-go-round survivor, trading one evil for another should not be the protocol.

    Benzos kill. As do SSRIs/all brain drugs. And kindling is a real thing‚Ķpolypharmacy is rampant in our present system of ‘mental health’ care.

    O for the ever elusive ‘right combination’ of meds to ‘fix’ our ‘chemical imbalances’…

  • A Celebration of Ignorance

    Carl Sagan: ‚ÄúI have a foreboding of an America in my children‚Äôs or grandchildren‚Äôs time‚Äďwhen the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no representing the pubic interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what‚Äôs true, we slide, almost without noticing back into superstition and darkness. The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30-second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance.‚ÄĚ From The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (1995)

    and the cherry on top:

    an excerpt:
    “How is the distortion of the notion of freedom by neoliberal beliefs related to political humiliation? The state, in serving the market, functions as a disciplinary regime, especially in relation to people who are working-class and poor. Sociologist Wacquant (2009) indicates that the state punishes the poor for their failure to be entrepreneurial-consumer subjects. The poor receive bare amounts of resources from the state, as a way of punishing them for not serving the state/market. From this perspective, humiliation involves communicating to people who are poor that they are economic failures (on the dole), and failed political subjects‚ÄĒhence disposable. Other sociologists dispute this idea of punishment and instead argue that the state disciplines the poor by devising ways to force poor people to live by market rules (Soss, Fording, & Schram, 2011). By receiving austere levels of resources, it is believed poor people will be motivated to work hard and improve their lot. Whether one sees this as discipline or punishment, each involves dependency on the state that is more concerned about the vitality of the market than it is about its poorer residents. The state, in other words, distorts political freedom by equating it with economic freedom and in the process disciplines or punishes poor persons who are constructed as failures. We might call ‚Äúthese people‚ÄĚ economic-political losers who have demonstrated misuse of the ‚Äúfreedoms‚ÄĚ the state provides. ‚ÄúThey‚ÄĚ are shamed in myriad ways in the media, which may function to incentivize some segments of the population to work harder. Shame, in this instance, becomes a tool of the market to produce and maintain entrepreneurial-consumer subjects who exercise their ‚Äúfreedoms‚ÄĚ by obeying the imperatives of the market society. In short, the state is directly involved in humiliating poorer persons instead of working to facilitate parity of political participation and a just distribution of resources.”

    Ya Basta!

  • *What* jobs?

    Living wage jobs?

    Minimum wage jobs?

    What freaking jawbs?

    Our standard of living has been eroded by the corporations who have bought our ‘government’ and shipped all decent jawbs overseas~

    You’re right, there’s plenty of work to be done, unfortunately, it isn’t compensated for in a way that sustains a mere individual in our present economic system. How many gigs does it take to pay the rent, *and* the gas money to get there, let alone afford a vehicle?

    I went without a car for 7 years cuz I COULDN’T afford one, let alone repairs, tires, insurance etc. and yet a vehicle is just about a requirement for employment. Public transit has been gutted–those of you preaching about JAWBs obviously are living in a fantasy world and I’ll BET you’re getting some sort of benefit your own selves.

    No Social Security for you, huh, Frank? Just how did you accumulate all your worldly goods anyways?; are you getting paid to sit behind a keyboard and pick on those unfortunates on the bottom of the food chain and rail about anti-psychiatry? As I mentioned to another regular on these pages; I’d rather have a root canal than sit in a room with you and work on the ‘movement’. Maybe one of the reasons there *is* no movement.

    Your rants against the disabled and the poor are scapegoating pure
    and simple.

  • Could you wait on customers with severe anxiety (or akathisia)? The jobs available out there are service jobs, dealing with *customers* for minimum wage. I know I still can’t deal with people on days/weeks when I’ve had zero sleep and my blood sugar drops out and when I freak out about every little thing–you all act as if iatrogenesis is just a little blip and we should just pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and get back onto the wheel even tho our gears are stripped.

    How about we save a bunch of money by not subsidizing the medications that are damaging our brains, eh? Or put the MIC on a diet‚Ķthat’ll save some dough. But no, people like Frank, and all you others behave like this psych drug thing is minor inconvenience.

    Get real, and quit scapegoating those that suffer–believe me, living on disability is barely that. Why dontcha get pissed at some bankers or something? The mean spiritedness I’m seeing here is shocking; and yes, it’s SCAPEGOATING.

    Deja vu all over again~

    O and ps
    Should we kick all those useless eaters on Social Security retirement off the ‘entitlements’ and make them bag groceries or work as greeters at Walmart? No man is an island. I’m guessing that not having any social supports is what brought a majority of us to the ‘mental health’ system in the first place.

    pss to Frank’s reply below (no reply button)
    I’m not claiming ‘mental illness’–but I am claiming IATROGENIC damage from involving myself in the ‘mental health’ system when I was distressed and had nowhere else to turn.


  • “I believe”

    And I believe my own experience and those that I read about in online support groups–the folks *damaged* by your ‘placebo effect.

    I believe that the damages caused by psych drugs in general, and SSRIs/SNRIs and tricyclics in particular, is a unacknowledged epidemic.

    Please listen, Doctor. Your position of power over others I believe is impeding your ability to be an unbiased observer.

    Thanks to Richard, Dan Smith, Slaying et al who are bringing this to your attention.

  • As I said~

    Of course it’s a slippery slope when it comes to a decision like that in regard to those who are labelled ‘mentally ill’‚ĶI didn’t mean to ignore the point of the article. It’s just that I’ve thought about it long enough, and many of my older friends have as well–I think we should all have the right to decide when to leave the planet, and not give Modern Medicine ‚ĄĘ another nickel on the backs of suffering elders. Modern Medicine ‚ĄĘ acts almost like it’s a personal affront to ‘lose’ a patient, even if they’ve already been coded 4 times‚ĶDeath is part of life, and pretending it’s not part of the great circle of life is part of our problem as a society. IMNSHO.

  • Why is it so hard for you to believe that *your* experience is not universal?

    I discontinued Klonopin after a few months use cold turkey the first time I was prescribed them. It was a rough 2 weeks or so but I got past it. It’s the ‘kindling’ phenomenon you seem to be ignorant of. Again, everyone is different. I’m 45 months out from what I thought was a slow taper after a subsequent ‘script that I took *as directed* for almost 10 years. It has been hell on earth–no joke. How many commit suicide due to the myriad of horrific symptoms that occur after even a slow taper? It will never be known. Benzos are poison. I can see a use for them for only very short term, but brain changes happen as soon as 4 days. There is no true informed consent because practitioners are clueless when it comes to long-term damages caused by benzos.

    Please stop.

  • Sara

    You might look into the “Surviving Antidepressants” website. There’s extensive information and support about slow tapering Benzos. All those brain meds have similar PAWS profiles.

    “Addiction Myth” is not good source for help with tapering.

    Good luck.

    You might also check out some of Robert Whitaker’s books, (the founder of this website) and youtube for videos regarding safely discontinuing benzos.

  • Benzos cause *brain changes*‚Ķeven yours.

    Some are lucky and escape the worst of the iatrogenic damage (did you know that benzos are derived from BENZENE, a well known carcinogen?) but piling on psych meds to mask the adverse effects of tolerance withdrawal helps ‘kindle’ the brain, making PAWS more likely.

    But of course, *everyone* is just like you:)

  • Sorry for your situation, which is ALL TOO COMMON.

    They call it “Benzo rage” on the support boards.

    I, too, am ‘older’ and sometimes wonder what’s the point of the years of intense suffering.

    I can honestly say that the iatrogenic damages have forced me to literally ‘live in the moment’ and find joy in the small. Getting thru yet another shitty day sometimes feels like climbing Mt. Everest. I *do* have periods of time when I feel ‘almost normal’ but they cannot be counted on to last…

    Nobody gets it unless they’ve been thru it, and WE SHOULD BE COMPENSATED for the loss of our lives as we knew them‚Ķfinancially, physically, spiritually and interpersonally too; many of us have had our lives ruined without any sort of acknowledgement from the powers that be, which is just another insult to add to the myriad of crap we must contend with daily.

    I hope you find someone who you can share your experience with who will listen and not judge. I had a good ‘friend’ dump me not long ago after supporting me for 3 years–I emailed a video made by a benzo victim that featured Dr. Heather Ashton and Dr. Malcolm Lader who speaks frankly about the brain damages and the duration of the suffering. I asked her to please just watch the first 10 mins. She came to visit a few weeks later and apologized; tears were shed and the friendship ‘patched’ up, but not really. I will never fully trust her again.

    It’s such a long, hard, lonely road‚Ķand I’m still not sure I’m glad I’m ‘med free’ at this point~

    You are not alone.

  • Cat
    What your experience is/was does not necessarily translate into other’s.

    I think there’s a lot to be said for micro tapers, which is discussed and supported at length on Surviving Antidepressants. I thought tapering over a year and a half was slow; 42 months later and still significantly impaired, I wish I would have known about *anything* at all regarding how to safely discontinue long term use of Klonopin.

    I think benzos should be used only in very specific circumstances short term.

    They are *dangerous* and TOXIC and are handed out like candy impacting a huge segment of society, many of whom are unseen and are unknowing as they get medicated with additional drugs for the adverse symptoms that the benzos themselves cause.

  • Cat

    People need to be aware that 10-15+ percent of those prescribed benzodiazepines are at risk for a severe post withdrawal syndrome that can last for years/the rest of your life. It is a living hell.

    True informed consent in regard all psych drugs/pharma drugs *rarely* happens.

    Those that experience adverse effects can become a ‘burden’ on society‚Ķand you libertarians wouldn’t like that at all, would you, CAT?

  • Thank you, Aaron, for sharing your story.

    I think it’s somewhat remarkable that the psychiatrist at McLean wrote down ‘iatrogenic’–that’s HUGE.

    And this:
    “Our stories or personal narratives are constantly being misconstrued and misappropriated by mental health professionals in the form of pathologizing progress notes and other clinical documents.”
    yep~and so it goes

  • Boo fucking hoo, cat.

    Rape can happen to men, too. But the odds are that the perps are MEN.

    25% of American women suffer from sexual violence‚Ķin my own life I have *very nearly* been raped numerous times. My mom was raped, my sister was raped and countless friends of mine have been raped. Sexual trauma is pivotal for those seeking mental health ‘services’ only to have the mental health ‘services’ inflict further damages.

  • Richard

    I beg to differ in regards to the ‘war on pain patients’.

    My neighbor, who passed a month ago (unrelated to story), went cold turkey off her Effexor and trazadone rather than submit to a pee-test that the clinic now requires for all patients receiving triplicate rxs.

    I think people in pain should be able to access pain meds, but supervision and follow up are needed‚Ķand that rarely happens here. An accurate diagnosis would be good, too, but again…

    BTW cat, I like your consent form above. That’s worth saving for future use.

  • “Benzos are not dangerous drugs”

    Watch even the first 10 minutes of the film linked to above. Dr. Heather Ashton (the only doc to have ever researched how to get off benzos safely and the fallout from their use) compares what’s happening to people all over the world as a result from iatrogenic damage taking benzos *as prescribed* comparable to the thalidomide scandal.

  • Addiction is the wrong word for most who get caught in the trap.

    Benzos changes the brain. Iatrogenic damage from as little as a week of use can happen. It’s BRAIN DAMAGE.

    The ADDICTION language is harmful to the millions of us who are going thru hell years later after we got off the ‘medication’ (AS PRESCRIBED!!!) .

    Watch the film and educate yourself cuz otherwise you are not really grasping the issue here.

    not at all against pain meds…true informed consent is rare when it comes to benzos and antidepressants, however

    I would have never have taken either if I had known the rest of my life would be filled with so much impairment and loss…BRAIN DAMAGE!!!!

  • I face criticism occasionally. I have learned to consider what is being said, see where it might conceivably be warranted, and incorporate that insight into my behavior. If some criticism is not warranted after careful reflection, and I then discard it. If some of the bloggers are unable to do this, I have to wonder about their maturity level and abilities to self-reflect.

    I pretty much in my life have honed down my friendship base to those who are able to do that.

    I, too, am disheartened by Emmeline’s pronouncement. I consider MiA to be a sort of *home* for me after bumbling into Robert Whitaker’s work, which changed my life. A place where I can learn and be inspired and gain virtual support from others who have been ‘consumers’ in the system and from those who are practitioners and critical of that system.

    To see what is happening here, and the changes *ever since the format change*‚Ķthe lack of interactivity by staff and now what feels like just more of the same ol’ same ol’ corporate crapification and the knuckling under due to pressure from vested interests. Again, those who have no power are being disempowered by those that do.

    Believe me, I wanted to say much more in my reply to this blog than I did.

    MiA won’t miss me, since my financial contributions are minor. I hope they succeed with their mission without survivor’s voices. But I want to know, just how much are mh practitioners going to learn without hearing the voices of those affected by the system?

  • That’s horseshit, cat.

    There’s folks from *all over the world* who bought benzos over -the-counter who have difficulties getting off ’em.

    It’s DEPENDENCE. They change your brain. Addiction is a whole other story.

    What Vlad doesn’t seem to get it that his/most other Americans run to a pharmaceutical when having difficulty rather than just go thru it. The nature of the world is change. Nothing lasts forever.

    Mania? Isn’t that just another word describing a piece of the range of human experience? I refuse to pathologize any response to our inner/outer ‘chemistries’ with our environments. It’s a slippery slope (as far too many of us already know) to give some ‘professional’ power over anyone with mere words.

  • “If psychiatry was all-bad, why would it still be around in 2017?”

    Because it is the perfect tool for social control???

    I don’t believe in ‘mania’ or ‘depression’ or any other adjective in the DSM‚Ķthere is only a range of human experience. And just because one is ‘stuck’ in a particular place of discomfort or distress does not disprove the law of flux–*everything* changes.

    There’s so many other ways to address insomnia–but you had to have the quick fix, just like most populations with ‘advanced’ economies. Pharma loves that…

    Good luck to you. I wonder what your attitude will be in years to come?

  • Nope. For *me*, the PAWS/ID is much much much much much worse than the original distress that fed me into the “MH” system.

    I went into the system believing that I was deviant, unnatural, inadequate thanks to my milieu growing up and the marriage I made with a so-called partner who just repeated my childhood messages.

    Everyone is different, but I don’t think I’m the only one who has had things come down the way they have.

  • Regarding your sleep issue

    I worry about this too. It is my most persistent ‘symptom’ and leads to a cascade of all the other impairments. I don’t like reading about how it is permanent–altho I have those thoughts, too.

    What ‘outside’ intervention are you referring to?

  • Supplements cost more than I can afford–really very simple. It’s all I can to do buy organic on my disability stipend. Fish oil–hah! right‚Ķpro-biotics, sure thing./s

    (I’m) Dealing with iatrogenic damage from psych drugs. I cannot tolerate B vitamins, now, among other things. In fact, supplements are somewhat discouraged on the support boards due to the sensitivity of our nervous system. They seem to exacerbate symptoms for many of us.

    Avoiding sugar, caffeine, chocolate, gluten is about all I can do right now, and otherwise eating well.

  • Rightio~

    As someone mentioned already, about the only way I will seek ‘medical care’ is if I’m bleeding profusely (or a similar scenario).

    But as we’ve seen on these pages before, even Advance Directives can be overruled by the medicos.

    Just give me the black pill, and I’ll take care if it myself.


    Don’t be Debbie Downer.

    Nevermind that your brain is damaged, and you haven’t slept in weeks.

    No, think about what is POSITIVE in your life as you lose your job, housing, family and friends.

    It’s *all in your head*! Change your attitude as you’re dealing with the akathisia and the weakness and the apathy, the brain fog and nightmares and the thousands of additional physical and mental deficits. Pull yourself up by your BOOTSTRAPS, goddam it!

    Plan for your awesome future, drug-free‚Ķif you ever recover from the iatrogenic damage that’s been wreaking havoc on your brain/body! There’s so much to look forward to‚Ķ(!)

    This all sounds like bullshit to me. It truly sounds like you all have NO IDEA what’s involved when attempting to get off the meds (easy part) and then deal with the aftermath and reality of iatrogenic damage.