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Can you ever argue against a set of a priori assumptions?
First – Know your enemy.
Did just that Steve. A walk through the woods listening to the birds, the soft breeze rustling the leaves and along a river with its trickling sounds – beautiful, puts a smile on my face.
The numbers are certainly staggering, incredulous in fact. And very frightening indeed. Even reading Bob’s extraordinary report leaves me with a sense of disbelief and I almost want to insist it’s been fact checked(footnotes please), and I’ve been aware of these problems for decades. How can this scandal be happening?
I asked a professor of psychiatry for research evidence that the drugs ‘worked’ as she insisted over twenty years ago. She responded ‘Read a textbook’. To which I said I have. She couldn’t provide any proper rational for standard medical care. It’s over ten years since Irving Kirschs research showing that the tablets work no better than placebo more or less. I’m sorry but saying its ‘standard medical care’ doesn’t cut it. Professionals must be held to a higher standard than that, they are expected to have learnt something useful in order to qualify, to learn from an experience we can respect them for. I don’t know about you but were I come from we’re taught that ignorance is no excuse! If the evidence of the harms done by these do called ‘treatments’ is so readily ignored you have to wonder how this comes to be and why it’s not only allowed to continue but continues to get worse.
Politicians want first and foremost to keep their seats. For now they are ensuring as many people as possible are getting the ‘mental health care’ we so richly deserve. A British new Labour spin doctor frequently confesses to his battles with depression on public radio shows. For some reason he insists on calling it an ‘illness’ despite never being challenged on this point. As such despite being a man of considerable privelege and status he is simultaineously denied the insight he needs and acts in effect as an (unpaid) shill for psychiatry. He was in part the architect of the destruction of a party committed for all its faults to ‘the nationalisation of the commanding heights of the economy’ to one with unquestioned deference to neoliberalism and unqualified support for those ‘compassionate conservatives’ war. If this scandal is ever tackled properly it will maybe because of its impact on healthcare in the round and not bacause of its particular impact on psychiatry were people can be depended on not to care. I’m not holding my breathe but as the Poet Seamus Heany says –
History says, don’t hope on this side of the grave. But then once in a lifetime the longed for tidal wave of justice can rise up and hope and history ryhme.
Here’s hoping enough folk can struggle to escape the bludgeoning fog of capitalisms current blindness. We all depend on that, not just those of us afflicted by psychiatric adversity.
The profit motive is bad for healthcare! This extraordinary report illustrates how. Healthcare provision freed of greed is available at much lower cost, more efficiently and effectively. For this reason most healthcare facilities until recently have operated on a professional non-profit basis.
It is possible and does happen that by and large trustworthy medical care is offered free at the point of care (paid for through taxes or other mechanisms). And it seems that still now most of the basic research and development of medicine (and technology generally) is conducted free of greed by reasonably honest scientists whose work is rigoursly examined and critiqued by colleagues. It’s only when something looks profitable that it’s hived off into the private for profit business sector. I was alerted to this fact by Noam Chomsky and confirmed it by research(sorry I’ve no links readily available). Pharma do have its own labs and research but their claim to need profits is pure poppycock, even in their own labs the scientist are not motivated by greed (who’d study science on the basis that it would make you rich) but nonetheless are under pressure to pander to the corporate bottom line. So they do do research and development but it’s hard to know how exactly how much as their ‘research’ budget includes do much of what is basically marketing! This doesn’t just apply to psychiatric drugs we’re it’s worst but to the other scandal of opiate dependence but to overprescription generally of anti biotic (fueling resistance) , statins, benzos, sleeping tablets, excessive unnecessary screening and testing.
Even in Europe our relatively effective health care systems (psychiatry not withstanding, although most people still believe mental distress arises from experience not biology this veiw hasn’t entirely infected the clinic for some strange reason although it has some effect) have not escaped the notice of business. A company previously best known for selling records and tourism has contracts worth billions to provide ‘mental health’ care and they havent being using it to enable people to dance around listening to their favourite or take us on holiday. Have you hoticed how you can walk into a therapists office with a love of music, hobbies and interests and walk out with ‘coping strategies’?
Yes Richard I agree it’s all rather complex. (I read the other thread which proved enlightening.) I have to admire the idealism of people seeking the abolition of psychiatry in toto, along with capitalism. But I’m not sure but that psychiatry will outlive capitalism. After all some people will still be driven to distraction by their experience of life. This I have little doubt will be true even if and when capitalism has outlived its usefulness if it ever had any. I’ve only recently come to this view in the light of climate crisis, another reality our ‘mental health’ brigades have identified for concern. In the meantime I won’t be holding my breath waiting for psychiatrys demise. I think there’s always going to be a need for an organised professional response to some people’s states of mind. But here’s still hoping your good selves or others efforts will at least inspire enough restraints to be put in place to limit the damage. Asking psychiatry to reform itself is obviously having no impact. You can throw all the ‘scientifically’ evidenced rebuttals at it you like it will have and has had no effect. They seem utterly oblivious to evidence of any kind while still managing to give every evidence of being decent professionals who sincerely believe in what they do. But maybe they will continue to and maybe more so lose some court cases. But so far they’ve managed to take these on the chin.
Personally I find no harm in simultaneously respecting the clear thinking (which I continue to admire despite my own muddled thoughts these days, my mind being addled by circumstance, experience and drugs) of some academics who have concern for how society responds to psycho-social distress, while still noticing that they all to often appear to pull their punches when called on to reject the basic functioning of psychiatry, and individualise responses. That and their own experience and understanding may explain what appear to some as cynical rejections of some stances articulated here.
Anyway I think the analyses of the problems being discussed here and the activism might bear some fruit eventually. It won’t be before time. Good luck and take care.
This is actually part of a series of interviews with academics/clinicians with a critical perspective on psychiatry. It’s quite interesting to read and provides some intellectual armoury against the nostrums of psychiatry. I rejected psychiatry from the get go and have always understood my difficulties in a social context but have nonetheless been ground down by the the psychiatric process. Obvious benefit could have produced less adversity from being better informed. These are interesting interviews but I wonder if like always the arguments are being presented merely to give the psychiatric establishment occasion to refute them. The PTMF is grounded in an understanding that our problems start in our experience of the world and what we make of it. Psychiatry has no time for real life experience. However psychology is often no better, engaging in tick box exercises to confirm a diagnosis for psychiatry or counselling coping strategies that while sometimes effective up to a point also place the locus of responsibility in the individual.
I have considerable admiration for a long line of psychologists who in their work acknowledge actual adversity but I’m doubtful that they’ve had much impact on clinical practice very often in Britain as elsewhere. So often critiques of psychiatric practice pull their punches at the point of acknowledging adversity and often merely at the adversity people sometimes experience in psychiatry. After that they just continue with the process of tinkering about inside our heads. It’ll be a massive job of work to undo the damage done by this mindset.
Hey Fiachra ever heard of the ‘schizophrenia challenge” it goes like this -‘ patient’ ( client/consumer/victim/inmate) “Hey doc if you think this poison is so great why don’t you take it then, it might help relieve you of a few of the fixed false ideas you’ve been hawking around about me and improve your social skills, maybe even your occupational functioning, why not have a go then it just might help? ”
Doc thinking to self – I can see this is not going to go well.
Well normally this approach is fraught with danger and rarely goes as intended. Sometimes the doc actually takes up the challenge though and within hours of taking just one tablet finds their mind in an awful mess, their occupational and social functioning falling apart and occasional start getting suicidal and wanting to die.
So called ‘Schizophrenia’ the world’s worst insult mascarading as a legitimate disease is as far as I know the only condition where the treatment causes the majority of its (alleged) ‘symptoms’.
Good luck with getting your MP interested, however insisting your afraid to walk onto a building site may not prove very helpful (just saying).
“Human suffering arises from our embodied interaction with a world, that though it cannot be known cannot be wished away.”
This is a very thoughtful interview with a very thoughtful, sensitive and erudite man. Thanks. But despite this well reasoned stance which often seems beyond argument, despite the considerable evidence which is easily accessible, despite the fact that psychiatry usually employs educated, cultured and seemingly decent individuals to do its business it carries on oblivious to the evidence. Its failures, mistakes, sometimes downright horrors continue. Why?
It’s not because their monstrous people – It does us no favours to dehumanised psychiatrists as we have been dehumanised. But still psychiatry exists with, despite many changes, the same basic mindset that Denys the harm that adversity, oppression, abuse and neglect cause people. Not only that but it has expanded its enterprise, sees more people treated than ever before (by a long shot) and despite the recognised proven failure of its treatments seeks ever more confidently to expand further into society. Why? How can it get away with this blind indifference to people suffering to reason even as it claims to be reasons best protector?
“Human suffering arises because of an embodied interaction with a world whose nature we cannot know but which we cannot escape.” I don’t know why we need to keep debating this. The DSM mindset outlived it’s usefulness long ago if it ever had anything to commend it. But it seems to proliferate like an out of control epidemic capturing more and more in its poisonous grasp – poisionous words followed by poisonous drugs. Not all are harmed or recognise the harm, maybe even some are helped to heal as they claim – who am I to argue with them. But many are left dissapointed if not destroyed by these treatments which profit the few at the expense of the many. Resting as it does on no firm intellectual basis but more so on a profound denial of the dangers inherent in life, the damage done by adverse experiences, events or circumstances how does it survive and continue to thrive?
“Human suffering arises because of an embodied interaction with a world whose nature we cannot know but which we cannot escape.”
Lol. That’ll explain why I feel like I’m suffocating in the current atmosphere. It’s not just the drugs or attitudes but a veritable language of despair that grinds you down. Or attempts to at least.
Well said. In France wearing a mask is mandatory whereas last year they banned the wearing of masks to stifle public protest whatever you think of it.
In fact one of the things I know about masks is that as anew thing when introduced first they were heavily and no doubt articulately criticised even by respected members of the medical profession in the C19th. It took a long time for them to be widely accepted even in medical circles. But earlier this year at the start of thr pandemic there was widespread hoarding going on, the price of masks sky rocketed and even medical services were sometimes finding it impossible to source supplies – that’s what initially motivated public health officials to put out the message not to wear masks – the law of unintended consequences maybe?
Hello Caroline – you are not under any obligation to reply to any comment here (most article writers don’t) or even read them. You could be forgiven for thinking that as the feed as gone ‘off topic’ at times some commenters are ignoring the contents of your article. Anyway thanks for your words.
Absolutely nothing in particular Oldhead. Things go in opposite directions simultaneously sometimes. The master strategists with their tentacles infiltrating every avenue of human endeavour are no doubt rubbing their hands with glee. Covid is really serious even as they are delighted to have a really serious replacement for the distraction of the Trump show, who’d have thought that was ever going to fly. In politics both sides now the centre right as well as the right have seizes on to the new distraction, even if its distasteful to a say so as Covid is not just taking and ruining lives it is laying waste to whole communities. What are called the disaster capitalists and their strategists and propagandists are indeed rubbing their hands with glee carrying on with their program unnoticed, unaccountable. They couldn’t give a shit about you or me but have come to dominate the agenda determing what is legitimit to articulate. To a ‘commie without a home’ I find a lot to agree with in what you say. Its validating and occasionally enlightening, much here I’ve heard before or figured out myself but occasionally like now I need reminding and sometimes you and others give me pause for thought. But there is as yet no law that says we have to agree on anything let alone everything. I wish I could say the same about the psychiatrists who I seem to fascinate. Yes I’d Stay away from them but that’s easier said than done in the circumstances.
For now I am well and truly pissed off with hearing about Covid. From a homeless utterly isolated person living with and caring for an elderly couple obsessed with worry about the virus I dropped in on Mia to find relief from that particular news feed. Thank you.
Oldhead, can I just say that I really really don’t want to have an argument with you about vaccinations! But can we both agree that the forces of rapacious corporate greed are indeed winning, hands down, and without any properly organised opposition the sort of which we used to have in the Labour movement and elsewhere. If I recall it may have been your good self who alerted me to what Warren Buffet, one of the world’s luckiest men, said that there is indeed a class war ongoing and the rich are winning – hands down and no dispute.
As of today one of my sources of news tells me that the loneliness and anxiety of the many during lockdown is distress to be interpreted as a doubling of the number of people showing signs of depression. So that’s another potentially huge expansion in the market, after the already near doubling during the austerity years, the expansion into schools prisons etc. This from a leading mental health charity that once upon a time used to actively harbour and fund the activities of critically inclined survivour activists.
So that’s all cause for despondency. Not to mention the almost trillion dollar handout the world’s 1000 richest people and corporations got in the bailout earlier this year.
And maybe we can agree that the profit motive is bad for your health. US healthcare costs are over twice per head as Britain’s NHS and yet people live longer in the UK despite its climate etc. This in spite of large swathes of the American population being uninsured or under insured. You can go bankrupt or end up destitute and homeless for becoming ill, that can’t happen in Europe.
A large part of the motivation however for over prescribing, over valuing, overselling meds, for disease mongering, unneccesary screening etc. is the profit motive. A good number of people below the line here are prepared to criticise the profession or the government but not tackle one of the key motivating factors in the problem – greed. We need in our solution to recognise this fact. Not for profit healthcare systems have better outcomes and are run at lower cost. I personally credit the scientists who developed life saving treatments obviously. Most of the research and all the basic research is done in non profit institutions, philanthropically or government funded labs or university labs. Failing to nationalise pharma when national free at point of use health care was established seems to have been a serious oversight.
No Oldhead I have no expertise as a virologist or epidemiologist or anything else for that matter. But that doesn’t make me automatically distrust everything that goes on in the world. Virology is not psychiatry. Vaccinations have been responsible for very significant improvements in mortality along with other public health measures including the elimination of some diseases and the massive containment of others. Anti vax messages have been responsible for outbreaks and resurgenses of some otherwise well contained viruses. And recall that the original anti vax message was tied up with a false label which exposed it to my mind as false immediately and later this claim was comprehensively rebutted.
As far as masks are concerned it doesn’t seem to be a big ask to cooperate with seemingly sensible public health measures and easy to do to. I defer to kindred spirits comments above.
But yea we are as you say being ‘sold a bill of goods’, if nothing else covid has removed alot of otherwise significant stories from the news agenda. We should as always be deeply skeptical about any claims made in areas were alot of money is at stake. The motivation to make false claims overprescribe, oversell or overprice an otherwise acceptable treatment are of course maximised by concerns for profit over peoples health.
As far as anti psychiatry being removed from social media, well so called anti psychiatry or even critical psychology messaging is a rather marginal thing and increasingly so in my experience. For instance this feed highlighting the adverse effects of psych drugs has been flagged. https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/prescribedharm
Indeed, I’m just nitpicking, we have no need for false labels – can I have my chocolate egg now. Do I really have to take those tablets? Seriously I’m struggling with some people who take these concepts very seriously indeed. You know what that’s like so until I can succeed in both putting more distance from them and get closer to more amenable folk I’ll be struggling with the thought of letting them have a piece of my mind or playing dumb.
By the way I seem to recall a report issued recently asking homeless people what recommendations they where given and quel surprise the number one piece of advice was to take anti-depressants!
It’s important to preserve some distinction between madness and badness. People of course can be bought. I’m not sure if all people are as scared of the allegedly ‘mentally ill’, ‘nutters’ crazy people in their midst, sometimes now they just seem concerned that people take their drugs. They call this ‘care’. After that they usually don’t want to know. The violence argument ignores the institutional violence of coercive manipulative psychiatry. They call this ‘care’. The victims of which are more often the victims of violence than the perpetrators of it. In fact it seems that people being treated such are less likely to commit violent crime than the normals.
No the easter bunny does not exist but the concept is real. I have to disagree with you here Oldhead, we do need labels and not for nothing. We need to call out the ‘medicalisng’ of distress and the ‘individualising’ of experience, of trauma, abuse, neglect, poverty, oppression, discrimination. Adversity in all its forms is increasingly responded to as ‘mental health’ problems. And this very individualising narrative approach is neutralising our collective Capacity to even discuss the adversity at the root of our troubles.
The drugs don’t work they just make you worse.
The coronavirus pandemic is real.
Wear a mask for crys sake. Vaccinations are safe, anyone who says otherwise is responsible for spreading diseases the consequences of which are….. Disease.
Nobody serious is seriously suggesting mandatory vaccinations.
The label your searching for is disaster capitalism OH.
And it’s not just the exceptional overcoming of difficulties that this applies to. No doubt many homeless people have been encouraged to strive to overcome our loss by the power of belief alone (although probably not by their carers who may fear losing a client) but mere thought cannot manifest bricks and mortar…
Even as one homeless person is housed by their own efforts or with support in the current dispensation corporate landlord ism ensures another is rendered homeless. No society has ever housed all its people adequately without collective resources being deployed and few enough at that rate.
Thanks, I hear ya. Their hardly quaking in their boots at the likes of me in this suffocating bourgeoise culture. But the corpus of ideas and the movements I support are frowned upon even if they have a respectable heritage but have been and increasingly neutralised. How has psychiatry gone from something your mother threatened you with to something your encouraged to actively seek help from voluntarily and not necessarily in desperation?
While ’empowerment’ is also a term used and abused to hoodwink us into thinking we can surmount impossible odds if we merely adopt the right attitude I won’t quibble. Let’s reclaim the language – It is indeed empowering to see things as they are even as that is the corrupting of our consciousness by this manipulation of our conscious awareness of power. It is empowering, humbling and not a little frightening to acknowledge the pervasiveness of the individualising of suffering even as it rears its remorseless indifference to our fate. We realise the immensity of the challenge and at least free ourselves of blame and loathing for the acts of power. Take care.
Indeed Oldhead. I’m tempted to say how depressing it is but I know where that might lead
Discretion is the better part of valour so to speak. How are we supposed to address someone whose daily workload must have exposed them to the conceptual and methodological errors in adoption studies and the genetic assumptions underpinning their prejudices. These guys prejudices seem to be impervious to evidence.
Exactly so Oldhead and I’m no marxist. What we are witnessing is precisely the commodification of ‘care’ with ‘care’ presumed to be the pretense of concern for a persons feelings and indifference to their circumstances. “Get your head straight and your life will work out fine” I’m advised. This ignoring in its enteirity the exercise of power in the world, the exercise of such power largely denied to the likes of me, niave enough to be sharing my thoughts with mental health professionals.
But this kind of discourse seems to be seaping into everyday discourse, percolating everyday life, trickling down into the commons poisoning relationships and increasing our sense of alienation.
Maybe it’s just my becoming further and further socially excluded that I experience this kind of miserably interaction so often. I’d be delighted to see some research on it because it seems likely to be a consequence of the proliferation of ‘mental health awareness/literacy’ marketing campaigns. It’s not just therapists that engages in this kind of thing. Often people do it voluntarily in circumstances where its not their duty to expand the market for mental health treatments. As listening ear counsellors, in self help groups, as teachers these days overly concerned with their charges ‘mental health’ while in effect operating to open up a huge market for the psy complex. I’m not entirely convinced these people are overly happy about this state of affairs but usually seemly strangle reluctant to discuss it. That is discuss why after they’ve offered their help and concern (professionally or otherwise) they insist on distracting you from the reality of your actual problems to affecting sincerely or otherwise concern for the state of mind your expressing. I mean maybe that’s a problem but if should somebody be consulting a therapists when their house is on fire is it beyond the therapists responsibility to insist your on to the wrong person you should call the fire department to put the flames out.
Many a life has been lost this way. Many have found themselves often with sincere concern to resolve a temporary difficulty turned into a lifelong career patienthood. With all the drugs and therapy sessions, peer counselling, recovery programs etc. And all the while the actual difficulties that beset you are ignored and actually added to in effect.
How does it help if someone is unemployed and isolated, out of the loop so to speak, to be given a diagnosis of mental illness and drugged into a soporific submission to occupy a place barely on the margins of society with no hope of support or concern that addresses their circumstances.
A behavioural geneticist invariably encounters evidence from the real world but turns away screaming in disbelief!
I don’t think it’s a lack of sincerity so much as a lack of thought or a lack of responsibility. What Megan seems to be driving at is power or the abuse of power. What are often sincerely held beliefs are often used to deny the felt trauma. A man brought up with an inate sense of superiority may not ipso facto be accused of insincerity by saying there is no racism/sexism nowadays although best thought of as looking for a rise. Similarly a psychiatrist might express sorrow for our feelings of a sadness or anxiety and give us little chance to avoid ‘treatments’ which more often than not add to our traumas. And they can and do argue for coercive interventions (even the more progressive ones) by presenting case studies it seems impolite to argue with. So what I think Megan is arguing ng is against the power of language to invalidate experience (notwithstanding that some people are being overly sensitive, misattribuing responsibility, maybe in denial etc.)
Thanks, best as you say just to walk away if people persist with that kind of attitude. But, and I’m should be careful how I say this, sometimes it’s a lot easier to walk away than shake off somebody’s influence.
I mean 20 years after making the conscious change to survivor status I’m back using the system. Not by choice so much as lack of choice. But a sorry state of affairs really!
WTF.. ‘consumer’, who’d have thought anyone might think that this term might fly. Some 20 years ago I’d been involved in an Advocacy group trying to establish itself. I thought we’d agreed that even ‘patient’ was inappropriate, people were survivors or users or more like used and abused by a coercive or at best time wasting unhelpful service (with rare exceptions).
But at least my overwhelming sense of disbelief that we might be expected to defend the “rights of consumers of mental health” allowed me to empathise with the sense of disbelief that some mental health professionals feel when presented with evidence from the real world. Who’d have thought that twenty years of abuse and/or neglect might damage someone. No the real world can be safely ignored as the role of adverse events is merely to trigger “mental ill health”.
The world is obviously a dangerous place sometimes–besides being awesome always- but once you become a ‘consumer of mental health’ these dangers and the damage they cause, the hurt and distress we feel can be safely ignored.
“I’m sorry you feel” surely, “I thought we’d medicated the fuck out of your capacity to feel” or think for that matter.
What I like about this series of articles is not the specific clichés which may be more or less sincere but how they are used by people to excuse themselves from having any rational discourse about what might be quite complex difficulties. In doing so they can guarantee that the person they claim to be helping ends up frustrated as shit.
Having said that I must remember that the next time someone decides what’s wrong with me and what treatment to take I should probably respond by thinking “I’m sorry you feel that way.” Although it’s maybe pointless saying so as they most probably would stop listening after the first two words.
Personally I’m desperately sorry anyone sought to get me wrapped up in this awful racket and I’ve remained trapped by its manipulative machinations for decades. A sorry escapade indeed to find your life stolen from under your feet and behind your back.
Brilliant. But strange to find oneself finding validation on the net and these days nowhere else. I have to deal with this kind of horse shit on a regular basis. But not from a position of empowerment but finding myself having to silly shall around it as these are the standard motifs of a system that cares just enough not to leave you alone!
I agree we should all take care of ourselves in dealing however creatively or otherwise with the corrosive influence of neoliberalism. This ideology might monetise everything but would destroy the ecosystem before admitting its own mistaken views.
My regrets in advance for doubting you Frank. Health care provision is obviously in ennourmous difficulties. I agree you can’t blame so called ‘anti-psychiatrists’ for failing to ensure the adequate provision of resources to support people struggling with difficulties. Most of those labeled such rejected the accolade. They were a diverse bunch after all and hadn’t the resources themselves. I also agree the conclusion seems wrong-headed, but maybe just badly worded. I was listening to journalists recently report that the financial result of medicare for all might result in something like $17 Trillion in savings to the American citizens in the first decade if enacted. I support so called ‘socialised’ medicine and while agreeing professionals deserve decent rewards for their hard work I’ve also realised that the profit-motive is bad for health in all manner of other ways. The researchers who do basic research to develop ‘treatments’ usually do so in non profit situations-universities, government labs, philanthropic organisations etc. To give the fruit of their labours to private corporations to feed private greed is wrong. The profit motive isn’t the funder of research often enough but it seems however that sometimes it does result in motivations to be less than candid in the evaluation the resulting ‘treatments’.
Thank you Frank. The forces sustaining “mental health treartment”s continued rise are indeed sustained by the current neo-liberal consensus, prioritising profit over people’s needs, wants and ignoring human rights as it does. Sorry for doubting, you are obviously reflecting such cynicisms rather than generating them. My point was merely attempting to respect the intentions of social care employees who might be assumed to respect as much as possible the wellbeing of people attending their clinics for ‘treatment’ – The reasons they find themselves there being of another import. And indeed the profit-motive seems to see recommendations for ‘treatments’ which sustain people in ‘treatment’ pointlessly. It would be a sad day indeed if we damage those systems trying to support people who need such support and end up buying into the marketing scams of anyone responsible for causing and/or sustaining people’s troubles in order to profit from selling ‘treatments’ of dubious provenance!
Hi Boans, I am wondering about the sort of activities you engaged in to earn such treatment? But nonetheless you don’t deny that you are happy someone made lot’s of money from the procedure do you? Having been subject to similar procedures myself your upset is understandable but probably misdirected and misplaced.
So Boans, are you saying that you accept individuals and corporations exploiting human misery in order to profit from such tragedies? Surely such conditions can only motive them to cause such tragedies and misery, don’t you agree? What would you like to happen someday by way of intervention when run over by the proverbial bus?
Boans, I don’t know the meaning your trying to impute, but simply put it seems to me (from examine the evidence) that profit-motives are bad for health and education, justice, welfare, low-cost housing, independent media, research, politics, psychiatry and all sorts of other areas to!
Frank, are you not being overly cynical about the expertise of mental health professionals? Might it be worthwhile considering if they want to be ‘treating’ their ‘patients’ effectively and maybe more qualified to know and as often as not equally disgusted at the exploitation of people’s vulnerabilities which drive up Bad Pharmas profit margins. In my extensive experience psyche professionals avoid trying to sell anything, they don’t see themselves as businesspeople but rather as professional carers. If we can take the profit orientation out of psychiatry and allow the experts to do their work we might be all the better for it.
Of course as a sometime Libertarian DemocraticSocialist I want the enactment of Social-Democratic policies that reduce the possibility of damage occurring to people in the first place and offer resources and support workers who work with people to solve their problems. Broadly equalitarian dispensations being to be proven as more effective than any others tried so far.
I concur. That should work to keep the community safe. Best wishes and good luck with the new role.
Peter, please go and immerses yourself in some critical psychiatry/psychology texts at least. The first sentence evokes the taught – they would say that wouldn’t they! ‘Early intervention’ meaning treating people before they become ‘ill’, you can’t argue with ‘prevention is better than cure’ can you? Well actually if you treat people for a condition they don’t have, (regardless of if it’s an imaginary disease or not) then lo and behold after treatment they still don’t have this condition (usually).
A verifiable miracle cure is it not? Who determines if these predictions are correct, after all doctors can’t even agree on who has these conditions independently of each other more than 50% of the time and that’s when a person is troubled or troubling in their behaviour.
I think your doing good work here, some of the best work on these problems comes from journalists. But please get with the program already. Be critical, assume every claim is wrong for starters.
Just as my once favourite psychiatrist said,, some people would never have fallen in love if no one had told them love exists, today I read about how many develop anorexia only because they have had the condition ‘marketed’ to them, an inadvertent consequence of some good intentions.
Good point Steve, and true for the ‘clinician’ obsessed with power. But also follow the money. The producer can charge 1,000 times the cost of manufacturing generic pills with its new patent. Already Olanzapine has been repatented as a dispersible tablet, also for reasons of ‘compliance’ – and it is handed over to all and sundry regardless of the presence of ‘compliance’ issues or not. And Ely Lily have already scored 250 billion in profit on that one. I think Abilify was the most profitable drug in the early years of this decade. Have these people no restraints on their greed at all?
Brilliant posts, detailed responses from Oldhead and some others as usual. I am sorry for the time wasted however, a lot of time on my hands being no excuse. Maybe it’s not so rare to witness so many words articulated to say so little.
As for bipolar didn’t there used to be manic depression, a real enough experience maybe, bipolar is just another unreliable, invalid diagnostic monster, a vast expansion for obvious reasons. Depression has the purpose of teaching us not to be depressed, another real enough experience (and horrible too), mania, according to some is built upon a melancholic outlook might have the purpose to also teach us – not to be manic, maybe! At least according to some admirable wise woman. As for bi-polar who can tell what that might be.
Chris congratulations for having moved a few step from the central ideology of bio-bio-bio-psychiatry, if you have, realising that other people exist and that our relations, current, past and our hopes of the future are key to understanding our minds, in extreme states of distress or otherwise – whatever you imagine is the need for ‘psychiatric’ interventions the answer to our perplextion is always away from any system of care, unless you work there. – – Anyway keep moving!
Sorry Robert but surely the mainstream media can afford to be more questioning and avoid merely rewriting a press release they know to be the product of a marketing agency. The mainstream media often hype themselves to be ‘the first draft of history’, to be, like you, avid stubborn fearless investigators or holding a mirror up to society and sometimes they are. Surely with so much at stake here and not withstanding the current revenue crisis in media they can afford to do better or are we always to be badly served by media quiescent in the face of authority, manufacturing consent?
It would take some mental gymnastics to reconcile what the ‘PTMF’ contains and retain any adherence to a medical view. But I suppose people are nothing if not adaptive! The ‘PTMF’ at least realises that people’s true needs are outside any support services provided which need to operate as an adjunct to securing those resources.
Frank, where do these people buying ‘mental health’ for ‘illness’ come from? In the world as it was taught to me psychiatry was something you where threatened with if you didn’t ‘behave yourself’.
Maradel – You make a good point. May I answer it this way, – Those of us who see an injustice in the world may choose (or feel compelled) to attend to it, to challenge injustice and hopefully do something about it if not actually end it. We don’t have to identify as ‘victims’ to acknowledge that we or others have been and are the victims of adversoties and that the systems employed to support us often result in additional adversity rather than any remediation.
Good article, another unnecessarily sad tale but so glad to end happy, for now. The current housing shortage across all anglo-saxon countries is devastating for the homeless obviously and the resulting extortionate rental rates are causing huge stress for renters, particularly those in precarious employment, and it even affects those purchasing property as the result is not just higher rents but higher prices for property everywhere. Huge profits for some, obviously and more stress = more ‘customers’ of the mental health industry which must cost enormously. Can this be a deliberate strategy?
No country has ever housed all its people satisfactorily, at least not for very many years. And of those that do they gave up totall reliance on the market and employed construction workers as required. The results proved amongst the best health care measures as well. Slum clearances and stable housing proved a great boon to people’s physical health through disease control and considerable mental wellbeing is also apparent. We need to seize control of the housing market from those merely seeking to profit and reassemble the atititude of homes for all!
The profit motive has no place in health care. Healthcare as a business is motivated to supply the most expensive treatments for the greatest duration. Without the desire to maximise profits Doctors are free to use the best most effective treatments for the least amount of time. And avoid treating people for conditions with no effective treatment or conditions which aren’t diseases at all!
Maybe only the world. But that’s really beyond my competence.
Become a spy In the house of love act as an enlightened witness letting people know the true answers lie outside psychiatry!
If it’s true that elements secretly control the universe, their not doing such a wonderful job are they. People probably could do just as well left to themselves.
We should maybe just ignore them and they’ll go away. Or maybe not, in which case another answer might be in order!
Hi Lawrence, in relation to zombies again I’m afraid, for your information I was reading about sleep. They have discovered that adolescents body clocks change to keep them awake at night and wake up later. But school starts to early and many children are thus deprived of vital sleep, particularly REM. The consequences are irritable, moodier, distractible and unfocused children – These you will recognise as ‘syptoms’ of ADHD (and also core features of fear.) We could do with resetting school start times to 10am or later to assist developing minds apparently. When the schools of Edina Minnesota changed opening time from 7:25 to 8:30 SAT scores increased from 605 to 761!
Binra – Certainly a vibration will follow us around for sometime after important events and adversities, maybe even into subsequent generations, changing, dissipating and influencing our choices and reactions.
Here’s another similar story –
I would ask those wont to demand ‘personal responsibility’, well ‘Responsibility for what?’ Having, obviously, deliberated long and hard the answer was that they come up with nothing!
We can only accept responsibility for that within our powers. It’s good to know our personal power, reflect on how best to exercise them and learn to counter threats and overcome adversities.
However the leader of a health service was caught splitting hairs over this distinction. He tried arguing that just because he was responsible for running the service he should not be held to be to blame for a scandal in the running of the service,?! Y
Binra – Maybe at risk banging on about it but these sort of deliberations in relation to the mainstream might be what you mean. https://youtu.be/_fV-C1Ag5sI
Don the subject of Black Holes, the ones in space that is –
Someone must have been telling lies about Josef K., he knew he had done nothing wrong but, one morning, he was arrested.
Maybe The Trial might be more pertinent for some people, especially around here.
Hi here’s the Wikipedia entry, not exactly sacrosanct, but it seems reasonable.
Off label uses (‘Abuse’) of psychiatric medications – particular amongst our most vulnerable, children and elderly residents of nursing homes – is one of the great scandals of our age.
Interview with the authors.
The psychological effects of inequality – Science Weekly podcast
Sorry for delay in getting back to you, Jclaude. Was a bit blue. Not sure how to elaborate or if an actual study has been completed. I’m a slow typer and all that.
But Penal colonies where established in New South Wales, Van Diemens Land and other parts of the continent now called Australia. The great majority of the settlers where thus convicts Transported, as punishment, to those Lands in the first half of the C19th. It would be a personal observation of mine that it stands to reason that if ‘offending’ behaviour was coded in the genes then this would be detectable by the behaviours of present day Australians as they would have these genes over represented in their genome. This appears not to be the case however – case closed!
Rachel – Sorry to hear you had a set back. There’s no consolation I can offer you but fail, fail again, fail better. We need allies to accept us in our struggles with this madness!
Steve, agreed that it’s common sense but academic proof might prove influential. And those of us living in poverty and adversity in a grossly unequal society don’t need a brain scan to know it hurts, we’ve known this since forever. What you goin’ to do about it? is a perennial problem, the way ahead not always being clear!
For now a song – https://youtu.be/SWRpl2S9iwk
Before Churchill the Empire ran a convincing experiment in behavioural genetics, they did not mean to but they did. It was called the policy of Transportation wherein many, very many people with proven behavioural difficulties, usually time inside, where transported to Australia. Did these people prove to be recidivism offenders and begat generations of ner-do-wells?
Eh, No, case proved it would seem, but many, even great admirers of Empire still cling on beliefs in hereditary, breeding and eugenics. The good news is that they are in the minority with, for instance, some 97% of ‘patients’ believing their psychic disturbances are rooted in environmental adversities etc. Even a majority of psychiatrists give a role to such and aren’t strict bio-determinists but then strict social determinism is not viable as resources balance adversity and our agency in determining responses is a vital lever in determining ‘outcomes’.
Rasellas, why did you post that? I know things can get a bit off topic here but….
By the way I like your style if not exactly agreeing with you!
Alternatively, when people stop believing they turn to anything or everything, not nothing then slowly and only rarely. Which leads to a sense of emptiness, a trembling fear, a profound terror and confusion. Even people with enemies or other adversities still get paranoid, in fact having enemies or adversity would seem to be a pre-requisite. Or as some analysts like to joke sometimes, insight and/or catharsis only lead to why we do what we do to get us into trouble. What to do about it is another story!
You may be right, but I wouldn’t be so sure of myself. However, the way global warming is going it might not matter in the end. But then there’s always some calamity that lies on the Horizon when it’s not actually in your face don’t you think?
The non-mainstream narratives are a masking over, distorting or inventing of truths that serve power interests.
Oh dear! Oldhead I am embarrassed! But it could have been worse, at least I didn’t use Caps.
In the absence of an adequate vocabulary…… and all that…..?
The popularity of eugenics is still manifest in the 21st century. I notice the recurrent race/iq spat has resurfaced again as it does in the popular media every 20 years or so. Pointless and nasty. And all those twin studies done or funded by professed eugenisists still have unquestioned authority in ‘research’ assuming the genetic ’causes’ of ‘mental illness’ despite there methodology, analysis and reporting having been totally critical many times going back many years.
Ambien maker responds to Roseanne Barr: ‘Racism is not a known side effect’
The British citizens thanked Churchill for his part in winning the War, gladly but thankfully voted the then socialist Labour Party to win the peace, dismantling the empire, setting up the NHS, bebuilding Britain including massive house building for ex troops (exposed to The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist in the trenches) their wives and nationalising the commanding heights of the economy. Churchill accepted all this to later regain power, promising to build even more homes.
Hi Oldhead, in this highly alienated, alienating world ‘Professional support’ might seem the best that people can get to some – it is often delivered with some charm, kindness and seeming concern. However, we must point out that ‘service’ not ‘care’ is their business and have no particular monoply of ‘understanding, compassion and wisdom’ as you say. The expanse of therapy culture and psychiatry is maybe rendering some feeling helpless in the face of their fellow man’s suffering or giving others excuses not to care. After all even if sometimes we feel the need for professional advice life is lived outside of those circles which often focus inside are own characters and ignore the real world struggles, adversities and limitations we face.
Churchill did suffer fro manic depression, the black dog as he called it. And it should come as no surprise he looked down on the afflicted, he was a colonialist, first of the Liberal variety and later a Conservative when he was largely responsible for saving the world from Nazism.
In fact about then many people who relied on a mono crop diet where afflicted with the consequences of food processing which stripped their diets of key nutrients, in the South many of the poor relying on corn as mainstay found in consuming processed corn (which has a longer shelf life) that they developed Pellagra from B3 deficiency.
And many concerned with the scandal of Psychiatry have a contemptuous view of the afflicted, even here, right on this thread, overlooking the many obstacles, hurdles and absence of resources we face. Actually there was a guy who was very concerned, saddened and angered at the 6 false messiah locked up in a psychiatric ward because he knew he was the true second coming and they where all deluded!
I thought the Zombie Apocalypse had already happened some time ago or maybe I was just having a nightmare – it was daytime though!
A case of putting the cart before the horse maybe OldHead, certainly changes. The 40% of America’s homeless who work (another 40% are out of work merely on account of their housing lack) and just need a reasonably priced home! They might appreciate the Profesional concern often delivered with kindness and care, but the profound housing shortage in the Anglo-Saxon world won’t deliver a home. But it is very profitable for the few who own rental'(about a 1,000% raise in rent over the past couple decades heavily disadvantages even those in work).
And changing the subject seems to be the main idea. The long term cost in health, people getting mixed up in the criminal justice system or/and suffering mental distress might prove more costly than decent stable housing. The best advice followed in places like Finland and Denmark is for housing first even for people with a period of chaotic lives or substance abuse. Well since a 1bed is got for about €500 /month in those places working people don’t enter homelessness much or at all. But the idea you need to get your head straight beforehand has proved to be wrong, providing the resources, stable housing first and then supports proves to be not only more effective in giving people stability but cheaper than long term hostel care, for the vast majority anyway.
No Oldhead I was saying that calling people lazy, feckless and irresponsible as an alternative to calling them mentally ill might just suffer from the same base assumptions. It is an understandable response but well, appearencescan be deceiving!
It is after all a common stigma that the unemployed and persons in poverty have to labour under. In an era of the working homeless it will come as no surprise to you that much effort is put into providing therapy for those afflicted before such considerations as actual housing.
That’s sad really – But maybe you misunderstand, I’m not suggesting we care for adults the same way we care for children – We might care for people wherever their at otherwise we might care not at all. What kind of care did you have in mind?
Nevertheless it does seem strange that a society placing such a high regard on responsibility finds it easier to medicate a troubled and/or troubling child than recommend parenting classes which have a better success rate.
And the Placebo response at 50%+ is a not unattractive ‘success’ particularly as it applies to such a disabling state as depression. In fact it seems that almost any ‘treatment’ seems to get as many positive responses as negative ones!
Lawrence you’ve illustrated the dangers of adopting the patient role here, it would probably regrettable if this area took too keenly to regarding this as a form of identity politics, there are already many industry supported groups where people have little in common except their ‘mental illness identities’.
However one reason medicine won the debate over who cares for the insane, over the purveyors of moral treatment, is because Doctors can uniquely have authority to relieve us of our responsibilities when overwhelmed by illness. And many overwhelmed by extreme mental states can expect equal relief. It is robbing us of our futures by overly pessimistic prognosis, peddling dubious theories and prescribing toxic treatments which is wrong.
And biological medical notions are far from the only such ideas, being told that your suffering from unresolved incestuous libidinal wish fulfillment is no more helpful than assertions of chemical imbalance or genetic deficiency, unfounded, unproven and untrue.
In a month when the UN rapporteur on poverty releases a scathing report on how America treats its poor you are in danger of going from the fact of people alleged to be ‘mentally ill’ being accused of being feckless, lazy and irresponsible. Maybe neither? Maybe damaged, frightened and denied access to resources, suffering the limitations of being human in a world that doesn’t often care well for human frailties and vulnerability?
Well yes, but the thought that came to mind was the wanton hypocrisy in co-option threats to the system while nothing really changes, adverse events being sidelined as triggers for underlying vulnerabilities rather than accepted in there own right as disturbing. And all the while genuine critics are marginalised, silenced or destroyed.
But your right ‘mental illness’ is culturally constructed to explain away such horrors that we might otherwise feel overwhelmed by.
Indeed Frank not just Russia, here too and they even write it down. Some decades past I was on a weekend furlough from a place I came to call ‘The venus fly trap’, reading the Sunday paper a piece of economic propaganda in the interests of wealthy elites called for disagreement. My assertion that this was self interest masquerading as economic fact would have some empirical evidence to support it yet it was duly recorded as potential evidence of madness by the shrinks.
Hi Frank, whether we are ‘condemned to be free’ or hold our freedom in esteem might depend on circumstance. Living under Nazi occupation and other adversities may have gifted Sartre with more difficult choices and responsibilities than Szasz.
Most peoole here are presumably concerned about how bio-determinism is oversold, without evidence (accepting the effects of various neurotoxins) in relation to conditions ill defined by psychiatry and subsequent or prior abuses and excuses for harmful acts. We should be aware as you are that some theorists even regard free will itself as an epiphenomenon of the brain, not always even as a necessary illusion presumably. I’m not sure how we account for occasions when some people lose conscious awareness and control of their minds however. That’s a bad way of putting it as no one ever has total awareness or control of their minds but you know what I mean.
Hi Emily, congratulations on putting together what seems like an excellent educational opportunity.
Something I noted was that in the first edition of The Primal Scream Janov (a therapist) promised primal scream therapy could cure a person of their homosexuality, then a decade later in the second edition of the same text he was promising that the same therapy could cure you of repressing your sexuality!
Or putting it another way don’t you find it a tad suspicious that a group of professions (the mental health professions) can go from denying the very existence of childhood sexual abuse to a few decades later declaring themselves the ‘experts’ in it’s ‘cure’ or ‘management’ (more insidious still.)
Just a thought! Good luck in developing and spreading a more informed understanding therein.
We’re all libertarians now so, by Frank’s reckoning, at least in the West and increasingly elsewhere you’d be hard pressed to find any belief system not subscribing to free will, pro-liberty and at the very least struggling to be masters of our own fate.
Oldhead I think you’ll agree that some people disappear down the black hole of organised psychiatry!
As for the physical objects no ones ever come back so we can’t say what’s going on there.
If a provider of a product or service makes a false claim that is fraud is it not and we agree that should be illegal do we not?
If a person or institution injures or endangers someone that is a crime, agreed?
I didn’t say no one is distressed by mania. I’ve been distressed by mania a number of times – other people’s. It isn’t always distressing, for me or the person in a state of mania. I said someone somewhere (not usually the person in the alleged manic state of mind, maybe a family member) must be distressed enough to go looking for help and the subsequent treatment must be approved by persons claiming to offer or authorising such treatment.
I’ve never approved of or suggested such treatment myself but do realise their is some call for interventions to ‘deal with’ extreme mental states like these. I wish humanity might progress to a point where the ‘annihilation of personhood’ was a not infrequent consequence of such ‘treatments’ and they where used sparingly if at all.
You accuse wrongly – ‘you annihilate positive experiences, you negativise the fullness of peoples’ subjective experience’ – Having neither the inclination nor the power I avoid these common features of said treatments. So where did you get such notions from, you don’t know me?
You seem like an intelligent person who has suffered great trauma, the best of luck to you.
If your not confused your misinformed!
‘If your not confused you’ve been misinformed’. At least if you operate within the limits of being human. Psychiatrists might admit no such limits! Thus there’s often a natural confusion from honest appraisals. Part of psychiatry charm is to appear to remove confusion from some by asserting ‘mental illness’ but the confusion is deepened and hidden. This is an artificial confusion which robs people of the potential for truthful understanding of their troubles if any.
Someone somewhere must be pretty distressed at happy manic, hypomania, so called spiritual transformations, psychosis etc. such that you can be forcibly detained, coercive treated and left crippled by the process and any who might object are dismissed or equally oppressed.
They diagnose ‘mental illness’, hard to avoid that phrase it seems. The prognosis can indeed be an iatrogenic self fulfilling prophecy Rachel. Even Prof Anthony Clare once the public face of psychiatry in the UK stated that the neurotoxin used to treat psychosis induced the ‘negative’ symptoms of these conditions.