Sunday, September 27, 2020

Comments by Bananas

Showing 25 of 25 comments.

  • Well said, ThyDavid.
    My take-away is that some medical providers are not cruel; they are indifferent. When I read that the acute stage lasts for two weeks and the chronic stage lasts for two months, I irritably ask: “Where does that stuff originate?” It seems that there are medical benzo-laws and that they are published with no citation.

    The chilling outcome is that medicine has failed, and this has led the casualties of that failure to seek help from ignorant but ambitious web-site owners Rather than condemning these people, simply requiring the source of information seems more useful.

    Well “source” means different things to different people. I asked one poster what the source was. This person said, “Facebook”. Oh, I didn’t realize that Facebook conducted double-blind benzo studies. So now I ask for a link to the study.

    Even published studies must be read critically. One paper claimed that when the 11 people in the test group were treated with a drug, all recovered from the benzo-illness and in 12 days. Those of us who know the territory know that this does not happen. So what did happen there?. A look at the “test-sample” revealed that those 11 people in the study were not benzo-patients. They were ordinary people who were put on a benzo for six weeks and then declared to be benzo-dependent patients. Things like this really happen so reading any claim to a study must be evaluated by the reader. This is true, also, when evaluating advice at benzo-help-sites. Too often the real science is corrupted. Taper methods too often suffer from a game of telephone. One person is helped with a valid protocol and shares it. The sharing continues down the line until it is mangled. Then it is harmful. It is as harmful as an uninformed physician’s guessed taper.

    Now please let me add this about the research above: Given the unspeakable torture of most benzo withdrawals, what kind of researcher would do that to an animal?

  • One important thing about the CYP 450 enzymes it the fact that everyone has them. Individuals have differing CYP 450 activity though. The intermediate metabolizes are somewhat slow to clear a drug or other toxin from he body. The extensive metabolizers are quick to clear drugs. This partly accounts for the degree of difficulty in tapering CYP 450 mediated drugs.
    Although we inherit the activity, we can induce and inhibit the action. Foods and drugs can do this. Some antibiotics will induce the cYP 3A4 enzyme causing lower than expected drug levels. This can cause an extreme drug withdrawal state. I’ve been there. I didn’t catch on for three weeks. No it wasn’t Cipro or Levoquin.
    Then there are the inhibitors. Grapefruit juice gets a lot of attention to the exclusion of the inducers.

    My concern is unnecessary drug exposure. It seems that people who become dependent on a Benzo often had had a previous exposure. Might that be true of other drugs?
    Okay back to the subject, I don’t need genetic testing to know my CYP 450 status because my benzo-experience let me know really quickly. One supposedly long half-life benzo was effective for four hours. and the short one lasted for two hours.

    So when we hear that a benzo has a long half life we assume that half-life is a function of the drug and not of the “host”.
    Okay half-life and duration of action are different things, but the question is the same.

  • That’s a really good last point. The term, “side effect” is used incorrectly to indicate different conditions and so it can be quite misleading.
    We see side effects, withdrawal symptoms, and persistent damage to biological systems. Too many medical providers fail to see the differences. This allows the error of calling a withdrawal symptom evidence of a relapse to a mental illness or even an emerging mental illness.
    Why can’t medical providers observe this? I suggest that medical education is training as opposed to education. Training being “see this and respond with that”. Education implies learning to think and to solve problems. We’re getting the result of training.
    The Latin words reveal interesting differences.
    “Craft (1984) noted that there are two different Latin roots of the English word “education.” They are “educare,” which means to train or to mold, and “educere,” meaning to lead out. … The opposing sides often use the same word to denote two very different concepts.”
    Okay, I admit that the difference has no impact on practice, I just feel a bit better knowing that there is a reason for inadequate medical-thinking.
    The cry:”Why Don’t They Know” remains. Maybe they didn’t ask. Maybe they were trained not to ask.

  • That sense of “forced drugging” may be the rule, but truly forced drugging does happen. When a doctor of any sort poses as an expert in ‘Tapering” a psychoactive drug and all goes dangerously badly, that doc may decide to cover his/her tracks by committing that patient to a real mental hospital where the patient is drugged into oblivion. That patient has close to no chance of seeing daylight again.
    Specific case: a woman was placed on benzodiazepines. She became dependent. The consulted doc called for discontinuing by 10.0mg Valium per month. The consequent harm became a crisis. The doc had her committed to a sate hospital where the woman was massively drugged, it seems, to keep her quiet. Today this woman is brain-damaged and incapacitated. She requires total care.
    Withdrawal syndrome from Benzodiazepines to civil commitment to forever crippled, it happens. It happens under the guise of giving her the “help that she needs”.
    She didn’t willingly take that long list of concurrently administered drugs while in custody.
    Law, in practice, assumes that the psychiatrist’s desires overcome patient rights because the psychiatrist, clearly, is a being superior to his mark.

  • Thanks so much for this work. I am writing a section of a report that requires ” the evidence of need”. You just added invaluable points. I will credit your text in citation unless you object. Question: Should I just link to MIA or do you have this in written elsewhere? This is a good and forthcoming piece of writing that cuts a clear but jagged window into The Benzo-Nightmare.

    It is oddly comforting to see this actually written.

  • I urge caution when looking for help from website owners who either never were in benzo-withdrawal or who are clearly lacking basic education. The internet help can be as harmful as the uninformed and egocentric doc-effects that we complain about. Look for real and primary-sourced links to validate what is said. Well sort of……. one such site owner makes strident comments and then adds a link. The link may have no bearing on the issue, but gee it does look good proudly posing there and not at all supporting the attendant statement.

  • Quite right, Sam. Government-paid employees are in charge of medicating “undesirables” in order to eliminate contact with the general population. Is this really a needed service, or is it a billing opportunity?

    Who are these poor undesirables anyway? Are these products of society, the fruit of medicating circumstances and not a real and personal condition? Who would not feel depressed and desperate and suspicious in poverty and persecution? Medicating society: is it the old social engineering but with a more PC name?

  • The belief that counseling cures benzo-dependence remains baffling.

    Ashton claimed that when a “cut” was too ambitious , just place more time between cuts. Well if the cut is a problem today, will it be just fine later? Oh and the cut and hold method is not intended to reverse benzo-dependence, and “healing begins after the taper is competed”? What is the function of the taper then? Some of these beliefs live on with no validation and no questioning.

    Oh just jump? Look at the people who did. If you are tapering with a number and are doing well, why would you suddenly make one big cut to end it? Yet people did just that.

    Mostly the BenzoMicroTaper has been so corrupted through the years that the current versions ignore basic chemistry. The current and mangled versions place any benzo in water! Clonazepam and Diazepam and more are poorly soluble to insoluble in water. That means that the benzo is in suspension at best and not in solution. You never know how much you are cutting. It’s a return to the invalid water titration thing. These benzos do not mix well with water. The taper becomes a crap-shoot.
    Why don’t people look up these things? Solution. suspension are not identical. Suspensions precipitate! even with suspension agents they precipitate.

    Does it make sense to determine any cut by deciding how many days you will be tapering and then divide your benzo dose by that number of days? Really? Is that not backwards?

    I was one of the first people to recover using the authentic BenzoMicroTaper of 2005. The corrupted versions of today are missing the two essential elements that changed the benzo world. Why does it not “work for everyone?”. Not “everyone” is really using it.
    Now for the 10% commandment, there is no evidence that the correct or acceptable cut will be identified by a percentage of anything. The 10% was suggested only as a ball park limit for any psychoactive medication discontinuation step. It was not a suggested cut limit.
    People, especially heavily damaged people, are harmed by not reading carefully and by accepting hearsay.
    The level of verified benzo information has fallen dramatically in the last few years. It may not be intentional; it may be carelessness; it may stem from limited education.

    The ad hominem argument has replaced the ad hoc, and the result is bad science and more suffering.

  • To top the medical abuse of toddlers and babies, parents who refuse medical practitioners’ decisions to administer these psychoactive drugs to their children have been threatened with the charge of child abuse. I have no idea how prevalent this threat is; I rely on personal messages. However, one case is one case too many.

    This is a new take on: “As the twig is bent, the tree’s inclined”. Do not bend the little twig in my care!

  • I don’t disagree. I should have written “Yes”: “Hey I read it in a book that I found” falls short of reason to believe the content. Then, yes, something did change in the western world. You pointed out that this required 300 years.
    I went off track when I realized that the same “I read it in a book, thing was used to induce the treatment of toddlers As bi-polar. Bieiderman wrote the belief as fact, and readers believed the proposition and prescribed drugs for two year old children. IS this medicated mythology?


  • In spring of 2011, I attended a lecture series covering the authority thing. The speaker claimed that it was the Great Plagues’ effect that so markedly reduced the influence of the Roman Church. It seems that Galileo was born about three hundred years before the Third Wave of Bubonic Plague. This is consistent with what you said of the time that passed before the coast was cleared for rational thought.

    I can be corrected though. However, I never understood how “I read it in a book” was a better basis for belief than scientific method.. There is a lurking resemblance, here, to the works of “key psychiatric opinion leaders” and the question: “WTF, where is the evidence?”

    Must we wait for three hundred more years?

  • The psychiatric industry has its counterpart on Mount Olympus. Each god has a character issue, and each mental thing has a name just as the gods do. These gods have temples devoted to them. There financial sacrifice is made. We may choose from the god of depression, the god of oppositional defiant disorder, the god of psychosis, hey how about the god of suicidal ideation? Each god of a mental illness has a preferred offering. Prozac, Depakote , Seroquel can be bought at the temples and the financial tender goes to the god or really the god’s representative, the mental health worker.
    Okay I said: “financial sacrifice”, but now human sacrifice seems even more fitting. The mind is taken while the vacant body roams the Earth.

  • Agreed!
    I’d emphasize a detail. This is a constitutional liberties or civil liberties issue. “Civil Rights” are essential but not identical to civil liberties. Civil liberties are addressed and assured in our Constitution. Specific rights are derived from rights listed in The Bill of Rights. The fourth and fourteenth amendments protect all citizens. All citizens have the right to their own bodies. Where is the exception for those accused of “suffering from mental illness”?
    There is no exception in the Constitution, but there is in actual practice.
    The accusation of being mentally ill is, in practice, equal to being found guilty without having been found guilty by a jury of peers?

  • Yes, Sam. Telltale phrases like: “The experts say” and “Get the help you need” have no real meaning, and they function as hashtags indicating thoughts that can be medicated for profit. Mind-control for financial gain and perverse pleasure and false imprisonment are accepted as “for your own good”. This replaces personal rights and civil liberties with the self-identified Psyche industry’s will.

    The issue is not mental-health rights, it is Constitutional rights guaranteed every citizen. The belief that tights can be ignored on the basis of “We know what’s good for you” is outrageous yet the idea lives and lives in modern medical practice.
    Physicians have been mining for mental illness for decades.. Now the accusation is equal to conviction. Now where, in history, did the accusation,alone, mean guilt? It’s the ultimate thought crime.

  • Thanks so much for reporting the relationship between pharma and groups like NAMI.
    In 2011, I witnessed this. A local church had discussions between services. The subject matter was applying Christian principles in real life. I visited and witnessed the following.
    The waiting parishioners were seated in a semi circle. Then a line of people filed in and took places behind each chair. The people from the line began hushedly speaking to the backs of the seated people saying;: “Get out while you can, they are here to hurt you….”.
    Then the speakers left and a person said that this is what every psychotic person hears all of the time. According to the speaker, most families have these “hearing voices” people in their midst and NAMI is there to see that these poor people are medicated correctly.
    The clergy enthusiastically agreed that anyone who does not fit in “deserves” medication and that remaining at home is not to be tolerated. The clergy were so very uninformed and enthusiastic about labeling and about ” medication”.
    So I looked up NAMI. They actually said that they were available to write sermons! Their expressed goal was to infiltrate every institution including public schools. This seemed to be a point of pride.
    I witnessed this, and this still scares me these many years later. The attitude of force was overwhelming.

  • Benzobuddies are Ashton Fundamentalists. Since this has failed, BB’s has taken the position that the most used and corrupted method is theirs. They also say that it is “nonsense”. Read if you like, but do not take their advice without vetting the facts. I left there years ago because they stridently promoted false medical and scientific fact.
    Now some people may argue, but this is important. The success listed for “Ashton” are success only in the sense that the patient is no longer taking the drug. Success does not mean that the withdrawal syndrome was reversed. As illustration, the Ashton Manual claims that “recovery does not begin until after the taper.” So recovery claimed is not actual recovery.
    Ashton claimed a 90% success. This is not true if success is the reversal of the benzo illness.

    Well I just discovered this different meaning of success as used on forums. It’s very disappointing.
    Isn’t “success” being well again? If you have tapered correctly, you should be well at taper completion. This is success.
    It was years before I discovered this contradiction.

  • Here’s an idea. I can’t say that it’s correct. We do find cognitive impairment after years of benzo-use. Does this happen with use or after withdrawal? Can we say that the impairment is caused by benzo-use ? Does it ocur after withdrawal or concurrently with withdrawal?
    Might cognitive impairment be caused by the mode of withdrawal? A major HMO discontinues benzos by calling for a 50% reduction weekly. Does this cause or exacerbate mental decline?

  • Yes, John! I’d suggest taking the incomes of those practitioners. How about taxing incompetent prescribing? People have suggested placing these irresponsible docs on an island where they are forced to take benzos and then to C/T benzos. Really these perpetrators might prefer benzo poisoning to loss of income. I am not being facetious.

  • I thank you, elocin. It has been difficult, at the least, to correct the assumption that a drug problem is an addiction problem. You just did it and so eloquently.

    Many drugs must be tapered to avoid harm. We don’t send beta blockers to rehab; the benzo-sick should not be sent to rehab either. The incapacitated benzo victim is further victimized by this careless labeling. You explained well, and I thank you.