“Do you know of any world religions founded and led primarily by women?”
Yes.. Theosophy for one…
“my understanding and experience is that I have been denied opportunities and respect in areas because of my sex.”
Tell me please the details ..
“My understanding is that men own most of the world’s wealth, and retain dominant power in most governments. Are you saying that these structures are shared 50:50?”
No… are you also saying that coal miners.. sewage workers, those in construction… or in fishing and other dangerous jobs are shared 50:50?
“I don’t blame individuals, you or me, for systemic prejudice.”
Which is what Sera is doing. Think of the outcry if she had started her piece with Dear Blacks.. or Dear nutcases….. jeez! men of course can be abused in this way.
I hope for a fair and equitable world for all,
I do too.
This writing of feminist ideology and dogma.. is an obvious attempt to inculcate and divide our community… resist!
Ok… just trying to debate. Of course I will be flamed. Men. Are you inherently misogynist? Defined as ‘a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.’ Are you?
“the existence of white or male privilege”
Because I was born white and male… I am privileged? In what way am I?
“This isn’t about a war on men.”
It is exactly that.
“Men are generally able to walk down a street and feel safer ”
No. Actually the largest victims of violence are men. I am very careful where I walk at night.
“Men don’t have to defend being male”
I am doing just that against you.
“nor do they have to expect that the fact that they are male will be a major topic of discussion if they run for”.. yeh sewage workers, coal miners, construction workers, fishermen, oil rig workers, construction workers… you know .. all the fvcking shit jobs.
“Most traditional ways of speaking match the male gender (policeMAN, mail MAN”
Because MAN is a word used for mankind… i.e humans. You are talking semantics here…
” most history of this nation focuses on the accomplishments of men” Which nation? China?
“where you’re getting stuck in defensiveness”
How am I defensive? What have I done?
“There’s also all the intersectionality that comes along with this.”
This is psychiatric jargon. Please explain this to me. Ta.
“None of what this blog has had to say is intended to negate your struggle, your suffering, or your accomplishments.”
“Dear Man: Sexism, Misogyny, & Our ‘Movement’”
‘Dear privileged Woman. Sexism, Misandry, and our ‘movement’. Don’t make me laugh….. ha! This site has never been about gender. Do not start to disrupt it. Thanks.
” the systemic misogyny that exists across all religions ”
A sweeping statement.. can you tell me how, say, Taoism is misogynist?
“you may be coming from the expectation that men should be dominant”
I do not think that. Why do you think I do?
“commenting about women’s healthcare completely ignores the fact that your mother and mine gave birth which explains the healthcare cost differences between men and women and certainly is not something for men to use against women.”
I was actually talking about the difference in funding for breast cancer compared to prostate cancer and other similar examples
“My hope is that you can acknowledge what Sera has mentioned about systemic misogyny”
No. A rich white woman cannot point the finger at me and tell me I am privileged over her.
Dear Man: Sexism, Misogyny, & Our ‘Movement’
I am a white male… didn’t chose that! But ah! The sins of the father! A psychiatric survivor, lived on the streets and still struggle to keep a roof over my head. But I oppress her… and have privilege over her… really? Really?
Explain please why I am a misogynist. Thanks.
The leading cause of death for men is now suicide. 95% of workplace deaths are men. The vast majority of the homeless are men. It is still legal to mutilate the genitals of baby boys. Men can be forced to fight and die in a war.. … In the UK women under 39 now earn more than men. In education 60% of graduates are women and education achievement of girls now outstrips boys. Women live longer than men…and money for health issues for women is far greater than for men. I could go on but I will leave it there. Dear woman… thanks for the privilege.. xxx
As usual Phil, a great post. But I do have issues about commitment.. i.e control of others. What should we do in certain (or even uncertain) circumstances?
I would like to say that there are medical conditions (not psychiatric) which need to be taken into account. A person may become very confused and disorientated due to delirium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium, or organic brain disease, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_brain_syndrome, or even through accidently (or by design), ingesting deliriants or other hallucinogenic drugs. Booze and pills may not mix. Also it is well known that some, especially young people, become suicidal after taking SSRIs. And people who cry for help may just make a bad decision.
A young person has just started a course on prozac for depression. He feels suicidal and wants to jump off a cliff. Should I restrain him? If yes.. for how long?
These medical conditions must be tested for. And coercion may be necessary to allow these tests to be done. Thankfully, I have never been faced with such an ehtical dilemma. I do think that psychiatry just clouds these issues and actually interferes with true medical practise. But there’s the rub! Cheers………..
Seth, when you state “Benzos are (the) best drugs for alleviating anxiety. ” you must be talking about the medical model of the ‘disease’ of anxiety. It seems obvious that the vast majority of the population use alcohol in order to wind down. A couple of beers or glasses of wine in the evening is the choice of millions. Other drugs such as opium and marijuana have also been used for thousands of years by human beings. So when you state that benzos are the best drug – where is your evidence? Of course I believe people have the human right to own their own body and to ingest any substance that they choose if it makes them feel better. Even chocolate. Obviously any overuse will cause issues. Just like salt. So I agree with Phil in the case that he makes which is to say that the promotion of benzos as a ‘medical drug’ akin to say insulin or antibiotics is morally wrong. I think…. …
Please note that comments on the Psychiatric Times that are critical of the argument are being deleted. Now I know that some of my comments are ‘over the top’ but in this instance – arguing about the validity of Szasz’s ideas, they were not. In fact I was very polite to Dr Pies.
“Why don’t you have a right to say you are Jesus? And why isn’t the proper response to that “congratulations”?”
― Thomas Stephen Szasz
“He’s not the Messiah. He’s a very naughty boy!”
― Brian’s mother
“Maybe the biggest concern is a shift away from a self-responsibility approach.”
Of course the late Dr Szasz was one of the first to adopt this attitude. But since I am completely bi-polar, not to mention my schizoidal tendencies, I can now blame my brain for my actions and not myself. When my sons were infants they had their excuse for bad behaviour.. ‘I could not help myself’ Adults should not use this excuse should they? Or are we all infants now?
Yes I agree. Can I cure myself from my addiction to alcohol with will power? Can I stop my nicotine habit with my thoughts? Yes.. millions have done so. Disease? Can I cure measles with my will power? Can I cure my cancer with my thoughts? No. Addiction is not a ‘disease’ although it may have metaphorical similarities that confuse us. Can I cure my oppositional defiant disorder? Or am I just ODD?
The herd needs conformity. Difference is ‘sinister’.
Yes – this video is amazing. It should be on prime time television. Every day.
Yeh.. it is not a true free market when their only customer is the powerful state mandated psychiatry. I bet Pharma contribute to the political parties in return for favours. Corruption to the very top.
We have to campaign for the right to fresh air? This is just astonishing! Well, words fail me for once. (And that does not happen often believe me!) I congratulate you on your work and achievements.
Oh. just to say that my misdiagnosis was of ‘substance abuse disorder’ which demonstrates to me just how much psychiatric pseudoscience has infiltrated medical ideals as practised by GPs.
There is an issue here. I am against forced ECT. If people want it then I would agree it is their decision. But then how much should or can we rely on the doctor’s ‘expert’ opinions? Do we all have to become medically trained? This is not just a subject for psychiatry. Early this year, after a bad fall, I was misdiagnosed by 4 GPs until an MRI scan (which I had to fight for) revealed that I had suffered a spinal compression injury in my neck which had affected my ability to walk. Having spoken to my neurologist, I did a search on the internet and within 30 minutes of wiki and youtube had discovered the neurological tests, symptoms and prognosis for my injury which my previous 4 doctors were unaware of. I know it is difficult, but I do expect my highly trained and well paid doctors to help guide me in my decision making on health matters. Some say ECT works, some say it causes brain damage. How am I, as an lay person, supposed to decide?
Ha! I can’t wait to get started writing my 500 words about the implications of the heterogeneity of service experiences and temporal trajectories of distress.
One further point. I have spoken many people who are shocked when I mention that ECT is still being used. It seems to be a treatment that is hidden from the public view and done in secret at the hospitals. It is a shameful practice.
Forced ECT should be made a criminal offence and its practitioners should be sent to prison for grevious bodily harm. Period.
Pure child abuse. How can this be allowed to happen? How?
Excellent work as usual Bob. However, I must take issue with the Szasz statement because it does misrepresent his position. Szasz used the word ‘myth’ with it’s true academic meaning as defined by the philosopher Gilbert Ryle.
“A myth is, of course, not a fairy story. It is the presentation of facts belonging to one category in the idioms appropriate to another. To explode a myth is accordingly not to deny the facts but to re-allocate them.”
Szasz is saying, not that the conditions called ‘mental illness’ do not exist, but that unwanted or deviant social behaviour has been wrongly ‘medicalised’, defined as being caused by a ‘disease’ and thus needing medical treatment. A myth is a belief system that underpins a particular society and its views. And as Ryle would explain it – mental illness is a ‘category error’.
Sorry to derail the thread a little, but I am always concerned when I see Szasz’s work being misunderstood.
Of course it is not only in prisons that these atrocities happen. One only has to look in ‘mental’ hospitals, ‘care’ in the community programs, old people’s homes, foster homes for children, and schools to name a few. In fact anywhere, where some people want to control and dominate others. Psychiatry is one big fat lie and practitioners are, and always have been, big fat liars. Those, such as Robert Spitzer and Allen Frances who have propogated these untruths, that ‘mental illness’ is a life long brain disease to be dealt with by brain damaging ‘treatments’ are now welcome to contribute to this site? Just in case we are seen as anti-psychiatry? Well, as Ted says, ‘we are all anti-psychiatry now’. If not, why not?
Can anyone explain to me what a ‘mental health officer’ actually is? What qualifications are needed? I would like to be one if only to avoid being sectioned some fine day in the future. Thanks.
Of course Frances praises Pinel ‘who created modern psychiatry as a medical specialty not by demonstrating that mental diseases are diseases but by defining coercion as moral treatment.’ Not against straitjackets or even forced feeding. Read more on what Szasz has to say here.
Of course psychiatrists want to blame genes and thus promote eugenics. It seems to be instinctive to the majority of human beings. (Luckily I am a martian.) This is well known in psychology and is called the self-serving attributional bias, and refers to individuals attributing their successes to internal or personal factors but attributing their failures to external or situational factors. The opposite also applies and so arises the tendency to blame other’s failures on their ‘personal’ factors such as genes and brains whilst attributing others success on luck and chance. Of course, now psychiatry is under threat we should expect them to fight back with vigour. http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/1089-2680.3.1.23
Thanks Jay for your work on this subject which I have followed with great interest for a long while. Cheers.
Well done Tina!
Beware. Psychiatrists and such authoritarian institutions such as the APA and Bad Pharma will not give up without a fight. They sense they are on the losing side which makes them even more dangerous. Expect them to try infiltate our organisation. Recognise them. Expose them.
Of course Frances fails to mention that the greatest single document ever produced resulting in massive over-diagnosis and misery for millions was the DSM-IV. I wonder who was in charge of that fiasco?
*big hug*
Since Thomas Szasz is no longer with us and therefore unable to respond to Allen Frances’s dinner conversation I have asked Jeffrey Schaler, lifelong friend of Szasz and owner of the Szasz.com website for his opinion. He states that Frances’s anecdote has ‘zero credibility’.
From Thomas Szasz, Law, Liberty and Psychiatry, New York: Macmillan, 1963, pp. 153-4, Szasz asks: “Which should we prefer, the integrity of the family or the autonomy of the individual?” For Szasz the choice is easy. He declares “Autonomy is my religion.”
Thomas Szasz took the decision to end his own life and remains a man of integrity, true to his words.
Jeffrey Schaler has responded by email as follows.
“I just don’t have time to keep up with the kind of nonsense that Allen thinks is important, and that the Huffington Post should not have published — Hearsay.
I simply do not find Dr. Frances’s comments worthy of response. Moreover, Professor Szasz’s numerous writings and lectures since at least 1960, speak for themselves. I discussed these and related issues with Dr. Frances at http://www.cato-unbound.org/2012/08/06/jeffrey-schaler/strategies-psychiatric-coercion
an online invited debate at the Cato Blog. In my opinion, he is engaging in “damage control.” He failed miserably in addressing the issue of psychiatric slavery, and now he’s using a classic “red-herring” approach to try to deflect attention away from the errors of his ways.”
Yeh? Which event was that? Evidence…? Anyway.. so he should have. I would have. After 50 years of total insults from the psychiatry profession and he let rip? I forgive him. Perhaps he felt his suicide would make an impact. Read any of his books have you?
‘ it would be an obvious injustice to apply blunt tools of moderation to this intricate arrangement of individuals.’
My.. what a great thoughtful intelligent writer you are Matthew…(for a sysop!) (Joke!!) I could have chosen many other passages from your piece to illustrate this…
Thomas Szasz is one of my heroes. Always vilified, yet always polite in his response.
Me? I will always fall short of these standards. I am a drunk. I have passion. I say things that I regret. I am sorry.
I am the slave that has to respect the master? No matter what he says to me? I am the patient that has to bow down to the psychiatrist? I am the Jew that has to respect Hitler? And be civil and refrain from personal attacks? Really?
I have my failings. But Matthew. Honestly. I cannot do this. And I would prefer that others do not do this. This forum should be open. It is only words after all. Not bombs or guns that kill. Of course ideas have consequences that may end in death. But I will not be respectful to those persons that completely disrespect me. I will fight back with every avenue open to me.
Sorry. I cannot subscribe to your request. If that means I must leave this site then so be it.
I think action is required here. Firstly for us to continue to ask Dr Thomas Insel for his scientific evidence for such an ideology. Also to show the pseudo-scientific nature of biological psychiatry to all reputable scientific/medical journals etc. It is not enough just to comment on sympathetic sites such as here. It is necessary to counter this insidious ideology by continual questioning of the persons and organisations that promote these false myths. Who will adopt the mantle of the late Dr Thomas Szasz?
Last time I spoke to Copernicus, he said…. this is going to be a long and bitter war. Keep you chin up Robert!
“The neurobiology of child abuse.”
This is more than creepy! It is an evil thought.
I am still following comments on the Novella blog. I used to be able to comment as ‘Dirk Steele’ buut was banned when I started to return the insults. I realise that some people cannot grasp the concepts you are proposing let alone be able to argue against. Anyway keep up the good work!. Msg [email protected] if you need support!
Novella’s views are based on the judeo/christian secular sect.
It must be Opposional Defiant Disorder… excuse thee speeling..
A new thought is by it’s nature abnormal. How does a fMRI scan of the brain define this?
For example – to answer Billyjoe – define gibberish? Has he read Joyces Finnigans Wake? Can he quote this person? Joyces Finnigans Wake is gibberish to some but to Robert Anton Wilson and Grant Morrison it is a work of genius. Who, scientifically, is correct? QED to some people is insane.
Perhaps you could help a little if you have the time… Ta!
My email is [email protected]. Novella and his ‘skeptic’ zealots actually eventually ban those that they lose the argument with. As always.
Unfortunately I all my comments are censored. For example Novella has provided lionks to show biochemical markers in the brain for OCD. His links do now allow for a full evaluation of the papers – sample sizes etc etc. But a quick research shows that many many papers have been submitted. No replications of the findings. All conflict. Which one does he choose to prove the science?
Also I did make the point that drapetomania and hysteria are diseases that demonstrate a ‘genetic component’. Does that make them medical ‘diseases’?
Keep up the good work. Can I PM you anywhere?
Cannotsay,
Also, well done for your comments on Steven Novella blog
Unfortunately, I cannot support you because I have been banned by Dr Novella for expressing ‘Szaszian’ views. I did smile a little when the commentators start to call you ‘crazy’ along with other insults. Keep up the good work!
ATG is correct in his views. As I, and Cannotsay, have discovered, if one attempts to debate any view critical of psychiatry on any Skeptic discussion group, we are banned. (Debunking Denialism also). Steven Novella blogs http://theness.com/neurologicablog/ or http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/
are prime examples, as are the JREF forums (Dr Novella is a director).
This ‘religious’ movement in association with the hacker group Anonymous who for some reason have an issue with scientology, are probably behind these attacks. See this vid
There are many others that are similar on youtube.
Unfortunately any criticism of the DSM and psychiatry are viewed by the skeptical scientific community as the ‘ravings’ of scientologists. As typified by Steven Novella here
I do think it important that these skeptical groups are made more clear about the position that is adopted on this site in order for serious progress to be made.
“Do you know of any world religions founded and led primarily by women?”
Yes.. Theosophy for one…
“my understanding and experience is that I have been denied opportunities and respect in areas because of my sex.”
Tell me please the details ..
“My understanding is that men own most of the world’s wealth, and retain dominant power in most governments. Are you saying that these structures are shared 50:50?”
No… are you also saying that coal miners.. sewage workers, those in construction… or in fishing and other dangerous jobs are shared 50:50?
“I don’t blame individuals, you or me, for systemic prejudice.”
Which is what Sera is doing. Think of the outcry if she had started her piece with Dear Blacks.. or Dear nutcases….. jeez! men of course can be abused in this way.
I hope for a fair and equitable world for all,
I do too.
This writing of feminist ideology and dogma.. is an obvious attempt to inculcate and divide our community… resist!
Ok… just trying to debate. Of course I will be flamed. Men. Are you inherently misogynist? Defined as ‘a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.’ Are you?
“the existence of white or male privilege”
Because I was born white and male… I am privileged? In what way am I?
“This isn’t about a war on men.”
It is exactly that.
“Men are generally able to walk down a street and feel safer ”
No. Actually the largest victims of violence are men. I am very careful where I walk at night.
“Men don’t have to defend being male”
I am doing just that against you.
“nor do they have to expect that the fact that they are male will be a major topic of discussion if they run for”.. yeh sewage workers, coal miners, construction workers, fishermen, oil rig workers, construction workers… you know .. all the fvcking shit jobs.
“Most traditional ways of speaking match the male gender (policeMAN, mail MAN”
Because MAN is a word used for mankind… i.e humans. You are talking semantics here…
” most history of this nation focuses on the accomplishments of men” Which nation? China?
“where you’re getting stuck in defensiveness”
How am I defensive? What have I done?
“There’s also all the intersectionality that comes along with this.”
This is psychiatric jargon. Please explain this to me. Ta.
“None of what this blog has had to say is intended to negate your struggle, your suffering, or your accomplishments.”
“Dear Man: Sexism, Misogyny, & Our ‘Movement’”
‘Dear privileged Woman. Sexism, Misandry, and our ‘movement’. Don’t make me laugh….. ha! This site has never been about gender. Do not start to disrupt it. Thanks.
” the systemic misogyny that exists across all religions ”
A sweeping statement.. can you tell me how, say, Taoism is misogynist?
“you may be coming from the expectation that men should be dominant”
I do not think that. Why do you think I do?
“commenting about women’s healthcare completely ignores the fact that your mother and mine gave birth which explains the healthcare cost differences between men and women and certainly is not something for men to use against women.”
I was actually talking about the difference in funding for breast cancer compared to prostate cancer and other similar examples
“My hope is that you can acknowledge what Sera has mentioned about systemic misogyny”
No. A rich white woman cannot point the finger at me and tell me I am privileged over her.
Dear Man: Sexism, Misogyny, & Our ‘Movement’
I am a white male… didn’t chose that! But ah! The sins of the father! A psychiatric survivor, lived on the streets and still struggle to keep a roof over my head. But I oppress her… and have privilege over her… really? Really?
Explain please why I am a misogynist. Thanks.
The leading cause of death for men is now suicide. 95% of workplace deaths are men. The vast majority of the homeless are men. It is still legal to mutilate the genitals of baby boys. Men can be forced to fight and die in a war.. … In the UK women under 39 now earn more than men. In education 60% of graduates are women and education achievement of girls now outstrips boys. Women live longer than men…and money for health issues for women is far greater than for men. I could go on but I will leave it there. Dear woman… thanks for the privilege.. xxx
As usual Phil, a great post. But I do have issues about commitment.. i.e control of others. What should we do in certain (or even uncertain) circumstances?
I would like to say that there are medical conditions (not psychiatric) which need to be taken into account. A person may become very confused and disorientated due to delirium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium, or organic brain disease, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_brain_syndrome, or even through accidently (or by design), ingesting deliriants or other hallucinogenic drugs. Booze and pills may not mix. Also it is well known that some, especially young people, become suicidal after taking SSRIs. And people who cry for help may just make a bad decision.
A young person has just started a course on prozac for depression. He feels suicidal and wants to jump off a cliff. Should I restrain him? If yes.. for how long?
These medical conditions must be tested for. And coercion may be necessary to allow these tests to be done. Thankfully, I have never been faced with such an ehtical dilemma. I do think that psychiatry just clouds these issues and actually interferes with true medical practise. But there’s the rub! Cheers………..
Seth, when you state “Benzos are (the) best drugs for alleviating anxiety. ” you must be talking about the medical model of the ‘disease’ of anxiety. It seems obvious that the vast majority of the population use alcohol in order to wind down. A couple of beers or glasses of wine in the evening is the choice of millions. Other drugs such as opium and marijuana have also been used for thousands of years by human beings. So when you state that benzos are the best drug – where is your evidence? Of course I believe people have the human right to own their own body and to ingest any substance that they choose if it makes them feel better. Even chocolate. Obviously any overuse will cause issues. Just like salt. So I agree with Phil in the case that he makes which is to say that the promotion of benzos as a ‘medical drug’ akin to say insulin or antibiotics is morally wrong. I think…. …
Please note that comments on the Psychiatric Times that are critical of the argument are being deleted. Now I know that some of my comments are ‘over the top’ but in this instance – arguing about the validity of Szasz’s ideas, they were not. In fact I was very polite to Dr Pies.
“Why don’t you have a right to say you are Jesus? And why isn’t the proper response to that “congratulations”?”
― Thomas Stephen Szasz
“He’s not the Messiah. He’s a very naughty boy!”
― Brian’s mother
“Maybe the biggest concern is a shift away from a self-responsibility approach.”
Of course the late Dr Szasz was one of the first to adopt this attitude. But since I am completely bi-polar, not to mention my schizoidal tendencies, I can now blame my brain for my actions and not myself. When my sons were infants they had their excuse for bad behaviour.. ‘I could not help myself’ Adults should not use this excuse should they? Or are we all infants now?
Yes I agree. Can I cure myself from my addiction to alcohol with will power? Can I stop my nicotine habit with my thoughts? Yes.. millions have done so. Disease? Can I cure measles with my will power? Can I cure my cancer with my thoughts? No. Addiction is not a ‘disease’ although it may have metaphorical similarities that confuse us. Can I cure my oppositional defiant disorder? Or am I just ODD?
The herd needs conformity. Difference is ‘sinister’.
Hopefully we can also make some comments here
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/how-electroconvulsive-therapy-works/
(I cannot cos I am banned)
Yes – this video is amazing. It should be on prime time television. Every day.
Yeh.. it is not a true free market when their only customer is the powerful state mandated psychiatry. I bet Pharma contribute to the political parties in return for favours. Corruption to the very top.
We have to campaign for the right to fresh air? This is just astonishing! Well, words fail me for once. (And that does not happen often believe me!) I congratulate you on your work and achievements.
Oh. just to say that my misdiagnosis was of ‘substance abuse disorder’ which demonstrates to me just how much psychiatric pseudoscience has infiltrated medical ideals as practised by GPs.
There is an issue here. I am against forced ECT. If people want it then I would agree it is their decision. But then how much should or can we rely on the doctor’s ‘expert’ opinions? Do we all have to become medically trained? This is not just a subject for psychiatry. Early this year, after a bad fall, I was misdiagnosed by 4 GPs until an MRI scan (which I had to fight for) revealed that I had suffered a spinal compression injury in my neck which had affected my ability to walk. Having spoken to my neurologist, I did a search on the internet and within 30 minutes of wiki and youtube had discovered the neurological tests, symptoms and prognosis for my injury which my previous 4 doctors were unaware of. I know it is difficult, but I do expect my highly trained and well paid doctors to help guide me in my decision making on health matters. Some say ECT works, some say it causes brain damage. How am I, as an lay person, supposed to decide?
Ha! I can’t wait to get started writing my 500 words about the implications of the heterogeneity of service experiences and temporal trajectories of distress.
One further point. I have spoken many people who are shocked when I mention that ECT is still being used. It seems to be a treatment that is hidden from the public view and done in secret at the hospitals. It is a shameful practice.
Forced ECT should be made a criminal offence and its practitioners should be sent to prison for grevious bodily harm. Period.
Pure child abuse. How can this be allowed to happen? How?
Excellent work as usual Bob. However, I must take issue with the Szasz statement because it does misrepresent his position. Szasz used the word ‘myth’ with it’s true academic meaning as defined by the philosopher Gilbert Ryle.
“A myth is, of course, not a fairy story. It is the presentation of facts belonging to one category in the idioms appropriate to another. To explode a myth is accordingly not to deny the facts but to re-allocate them.”
Szasz is saying, not that the conditions called ‘mental illness’ do not exist, but that unwanted or deviant social behaviour has been wrongly ‘medicalised’, defined as being caused by a ‘disease’ and thus needing medical treatment. A myth is a belief system that underpins a particular society and its views. And as Ryle would explain it – mental illness is a ‘category error’.
Sorry to derail the thread a little, but I am always concerned when I see Szasz’s work being misunderstood.
Of course it is not only in prisons that these atrocities happen. One only has to look in ‘mental’ hospitals, ‘care’ in the community programs, old people’s homes, foster homes for children, and schools to name a few. In fact anywhere, where some people want to control and dominate others. Psychiatry is one big fat lie and practitioners are, and always have been, big fat liars. Those, such as Robert Spitzer and Allen Frances who have propogated these untruths, that ‘mental illness’ is a life long brain disease to be dealt with by brain damaging ‘treatments’ are now welcome to contribute to this site? Just in case we are seen as anti-psychiatry? Well, as Ted says, ‘we are all anti-psychiatry now’. If not, why not?
Can anyone explain to me what a ‘mental health officer’ actually is? What qualifications are needed? I would like to be one if only to avoid being sectioned some fine day in the future. Thanks.
Of course Frances praises Pinel ‘who created modern psychiatry as a medical specialty not by demonstrating that mental diseases are diseases but by defining coercion as moral treatment.’ Not against straitjackets or even forced feeding. Read more on what Szasz has to say here.
http://books.google.com/books?id=hYdLS6qyTwUC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=pinel+created+modern+psychiatry+not+by+demonstrating+that+mental+diseases&source=bl&ots=rY_6tO6pbD&sig=BFglW1gcHL7KIDwekPXTGuQDNcs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tcRtUqqiK-P0yQHMh4HgBw&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=pinel%20created%20modern%20psychiatry%20not%20by%20demonstrating%20that%20mental%20diseases&f=false
Of course psychiatrists want to blame genes and thus promote eugenics. It seems to be instinctive to the majority of human beings. (Luckily I am a martian.) This is well known in psychology and is called the self-serving attributional bias, and refers to individuals attributing their successes to internal or personal factors but attributing their failures to external or situational factors. The opposite also applies and so arises the tendency to blame other’s failures on their ‘personal’ factors such as genes and brains whilst attributing others success on luck and chance. Of course, now psychiatry is under threat we should expect them to fight back with vigour. http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/1089-2680.3.1.23
Thanks Jay for your work on this subject which I have followed with great interest for a long while. Cheers.
Well done Tina!
Beware. Psychiatrists and such authoritarian institutions such as the APA and Bad Pharma will not give up without a fight. They sense they are on the losing side which makes them even more dangerous. Expect them to try infiltate our organisation. Recognise them. Expose them.
Of course Frances fails to mention that the greatest single document ever produced resulting in massive over-diagnosis and misery for millions was the DSM-IV. I wonder who was in charge of that fiasco?
*big hug*
Since Thomas Szasz is no longer with us and therefore unable to respond to Allen Frances’s dinner conversation I have asked Jeffrey Schaler, lifelong friend of Szasz and owner of the Szasz.com website for his opinion. He states that Frances’s anecdote has ‘zero credibility’.
From Thomas Szasz, Law, Liberty and Psychiatry, New York: Macmillan, 1963, pp. 153-4, Szasz asks: “Which should we prefer, the integrity of the family or the autonomy of the individual?” For Szasz the choice is easy. He declares “Autonomy is my religion.”
Thomas Szasz took the decision to end his own life and remains a man of integrity, true to his words.
Jeffrey Schaler has responded by email as follows.
“I just don’t have time to keep up with the kind of nonsense that Allen thinks is important, and that the Huffington Post should not have published — Hearsay.
I simply do not find Dr. Frances’s comments worthy of response. Moreover, Professor Szasz’s numerous writings and lectures since at least 1960, speak for themselves. I discussed these and related issues with Dr. Frances at
http://www.cato-unbound.org/2012/08/06/jeffrey-schaler/strategies-psychiatric-coercion
an online invited debate at the Cato Blog. In my opinion, he is engaging in “damage control.” He failed miserably in addressing the issue of psychiatric slavery, and now he’s using a classic “red-herring” approach to try to deflect attention away from the errors of his ways.”
http://www.cato-unbound.org/2012/08/28/jeffrey-schaler/summation-not-middle-ground
This whole discussion is worth a read…
Comment Moderated
Yeh? Which event was that? Evidence…? Anyway.. so he should have. I would have. After 50 years of total insults from the psychiatry profession and he let rip? I forgive him. Perhaps he felt his suicide would make an impact. Read any of his books have you?
‘ it would be an obvious injustice to apply blunt tools of moderation to this intricate arrangement of individuals.’
My.. what a great thoughtful intelligent writer you are Matthew…(for a sysop!) (Joke!!) I could have chosen many other passages from your piece to illustrate this…
Thomas Szasz is one of my heroes. Always vilified, yet always polite in his response.
Me? I will always fall short of these standards. I am a drunk. I have passion. I say things that I regret. I am sorry.
I am the slave that has to respect the master? No matter what he says to me? I am the patient that has to bow down to the psychiatrist? I am the Jew that has to respect Hitler? And be civil and refrain from personal attacks? Really?
I have my failings. But Matthew. Honestly. I cannot do this. And I would prefer that others do not do this. This forum should be open. It is only words after all. Not bombs or guns that kill. Of course ideas have consequences that may end in death. But I will not be respectful to those persons that completely disrespect me. I will fight back with every avenue open to me.
Sorry. I cannot subscribe to your request. If that means I must leave this site then so be it.
I think action is required here. Firstly for us to continue to ask Dr Thomas Insel for his scientific evidence for such an ideology. Also to show the pseudo-scientific nature of biological psychiatry to all reputable scientific/medical journals etc. It is not enough just to comment on sympathetic sites such as here. It is necessary to counter this insidious ideology by continual questioning of the persons and organisations that promote these false myths. Who will adopt the mantle of the late Dr Thomas Szasz?
Last time I spoke to Copernicus, he said…. this is going to be a long and bitter war. Keep you chin up Robert!
“The neurobiology of child abuse.”
This is more than creepy! It is an evil thought.
I am still following comments on the Novella blog. I used to be able to comment as ‘Dirk Steele’ buut was banned when I started to return the insults. I realise that some people cannot grasp the concepts you are proposing let alone be able to argue against. Anyway keep up the good work!. Msg [email protected] if you need support!
Novella’s views are based on the judeo/christian secular sect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfQo6s-DtOY
It must be Opposional Defiant Disorder… excuse thee speeling..
A new thought is by it’s nature abnormal. How does a fMRI scan of the brain define this?
For example – to answer Billyjoe – define gibberish? Has he read Joyces Finnigans Wake? Can he quote this person? Joyces Finnigans Wake is gibberish to some but to Robert Anton Wilson and Grant Morrison it is a work of genius. Who, scientifically, is correct? QED to some people is insane.
Perhaps you could help a little if you have the time… Ta!
My email is [email protected]. Novella and his ‘skeptic’ zealots actually eventually ban those that they lose the argument with. As always.
I am following your comments on http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-genetics-of-mental-illness/
Unfortunately I all my comments are censored. For example Novella has provided lionks to show biochemical markers in the brain for OCD. His links do now allow for a full evaluation of the papers – sample sizes etc etc. But a quick research shows that many many papers have been submitted. No replications of the findings. All conflict. Which one does he choose to prove the science?
Also I did make the point that drapetomania and hysteria are diseases that demonstrate a ‘genetic component’. Does that make them medical ‘diseases’?
Keep up the good work. Can I PM you anywhere?
Cannotsay,
Also, well done for your comments on Steven Novella blog
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-genetics-of-mental-illness/
Unfortunately, I cannot support you because I have been banned by Dr Novella for expressing ‘Szaszian’ views. I did smile a little when the commentators start to call you ‘crazy’ along with other insults. Keep up the good work!
ATG is correct in his views. As I, and Cannotsay, have discovered, if one attempts to debate any view critical of psychiatry on any Skeptic discussion group, we are banned. (Debunking Denialism also). Steven Novella blogs http://theness.com/neurologicablog/ or http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/
are prime examples, as are the JREF forums (Dr Novella is a director).
This ‘religious’ movement in association with the hacker group Anonymous who for some reason have an issue with scientology, are probably behind these attacks. See this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8gvllFQNlI
There are many others that are similar on youtube.
Unfortunately any criticism of the DSM and psychiatry are viewed by the skeptical scientific community as the ‘ravings’ of scientologists. As typified by Steven Novella here
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/dsm-v-mental-illness-vs-normal-behavior/
I do think it important that these skeptical groups are made more clear about the position that is adopted on this site in order for serious progress to be made.