Wednesday, May 24, 2017

Comments by CatNight

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  • In regards to your wish in the last paragraph. And thanks for the work – it saddens that it has come to this in our research world.
    In my area,NAMI had implicit power to expose the medical school students and residents to carefully picked folks who would relate how the status quo of the system worked well for them. These folks were picked by staff who might not have had any professional training. At one meeting another woman and I were dismissed because of our expressed views that did not fit into the narrative. In our area, the journal news venue would come out with a reformed surivi or who had been a media flashpoint and now had seen the light and repented of their ways.
    Many medical residents that see folks may not have received trading in the states. This creates a double edged sword hanging over patient’s head because they are dealing many times with medical folk who are only told the one narrative and may come with a cultural background that is patricharal and could be elitist.
    Their ability to hear people’s suffering and trauma is diminished at times.
    With the emphasis on medication so much is thrown effectively down the toilet in terms of any good that the profession achieved at times in the past.
    The concept of true Auepiscaplian sp? is lost, torn asunder, and rent to the pyschiatrist’s very soul.
    I admire the ones who hold on to the inherent moral practice of the Hippocratic oath. It still is not easy for them.
    I would think drastic intervention is the only way to change the power dynamics-
    Even if at times chemicals work for some the issue of where the MH world is belies a sense of things being on the right track.
    Look at Polio-scabies these conditions showed drastic change not a slippery slope into hell.

  • Monica you brought me back. Thanks for your words.
    As both a survivor and a retired LISW I share your perspective in some ways.
    I worked in the field for over twenty years before being pulled into the system by uninformed family, all of us traumatized by ongoing criss issues, uninformed friends, and “helpers” who really didn’t help.
    The worst was the trauma of hospitalization.I knew what a decent looked,acted,and felt like. These units were prison- nothing more-nothinging less.
    As a professional, I worked assiduously to treat the relationship as a team effort.
    I took time to establish trust and when something bad went down I told the truth of what I had control of and what I didn’t. So if abuse was acknowledged I told my client the law – prepared them for what would happen and had them listen to my call to the abuse hotline. I tried very hard to let them know it would not be easy and keeping on telling their story to the safest folks they could find.
    I was only there to help them learn to cope with life independently.
    My job as I saw was to put myself out of business.
    I tried hard to have a mutual respect relationship. I learned many things from my clients and sometimes was in awe of how they maintained.
    My issue with the MH professional writings is -at times- you can feel the defensiveness- and I would say fear.
    When one starts out writing- ” I have this- I wrote these books, I have presented these workshops, and most revealing of all – I come from this family constellation – and I am not willing to admit any true hard issues because I am an expert.
    This stance- for me as a reader with both lived and professional experience disbelief, anger,triggered hurt- the stance of power- and ultimately sadness and continued lack of hope that the secret tragedy of MH care will never be totally revealed and change happen.
    I want a dialogue. But it has to be played out on a fair field – a round table like the Paris Peace talks.
    If you read literary critical thinking vocabulary and fiction matters in terms of the power of relationship.
    There are so many people involved in the system that I would really like to hear from. Police officers, aides who work on the units, judges,ect.
    Maybe Robert and staff need to work on some sort of framework for dialogue for all.
    Or some toiols not used now. What about survivor first reads and commentary before a MH work comes out?
    What and how did Bishop Tutu’s commission work?
    Maybe a reading list for potential contributors to read before writing suggested by survivors?
    Hannah Ardnt’s work would be important.
    There are virulent isms all over the MH system from ages and ages ago. It has gotten into the white mean now and U think that is part of why MIA exits. Not the best way but please let’s use this to solve not continue problems otherwise U will not be back.
    Politeness never hurts but the issue of power is fraught and wrought here and U know it might not even cross contributors minds or they just are not sure how or what to say so they go into default pistering mode.
    How can we do this better?

  • Sorry Chaya I did not address your hurt.
    I don’t think there are many fantastic thereuputic relationships. One has to have a gift and one has to be lucky to find that person.
    Kind of like marriage except you are in an truly unequal economic relationship.
    I go back and forth. I try and then stop for a variety of reasons
    We all all looking for that missing piece that would make us feel less hurt or empty fill in the blank
    Sometimes we find in a professional sometimes in a friend
    Sometimes in other acts of alternative stuff and actions
    Ultimately I think we all our hurting and some of us are not only aware but we pick up the vibes and carry them in our souls.
    Keep on walking the walk.You are not alone and I value your presence here. You ran into a bad situation where your support was wounded and did not have the tools strength or skills to deal with your nonlocus of control loss. She could have done several things
    She could have cried with you
    She could have done a ritual
    She could have modeled or talked about how to say goodbye
    She could have advocated for you and the others and told you her actions
    She could and I think had the responsibility to help you have another support
    She could have spoke the truth this really you know what
    She could have resigned
    Or she might have tried and failed and was unable to acknowledge it or talk against the system and in her on life was on the edge
    Best is to forgive piece by piece and bless her because festering feelings thoughts and memories never help us
    Easier said then done as I know all all to well
    Another day or time there could be a place for seeking another but help comes from walks and small things or just having your great writing and voice
    Keep open and keeping the idea of a dream catcher
    The webbed area keeps the bad stuff out the hole allows the good in
    I don’t do any work though I have done peer experiences workshop stuff
    Still dealing with life
    Thanks for putting a light to this

  • Sorry for the typos the lingering side effects of meds and overlay of dyslexia and dysgraphia
    I had made use of supports from social workers in the past but on my own way in my own choice stream and mostly behind closed doors
    Had planned for more but couldn’t squeeze it in too much hell going on
    In past had supervised some one out in the peer community I was only Worker who was willing
    Also tried to get clients off meds in 1980s but wall
    Now I know why they were clueless!
    Being in the worst scenarios has given me 360 almost vision
    Someday would love to use it for all

  • Oh yes for twenty years as a LISW. I dropped it when I became frustrated with the profession and its trajectory in the regional systems.Also multiple family issues made it nigh high to impossible to do good work or advocate for change.
    “Friends”intervened nonprofessional clueless during an extreme nonlocus of control period calling already fragile family members to get me into the system. One so called professional colleague was involved but I am never gotten the details. It started me into the cesspool of meds and seclusion and as ful side effects and totally destroyed my sense of self worth.
    Still recovering from it all
    CV available on request!

  • Thanks Chaya for your thoughts.
    And Steve for yours and the others.
    Therapy is a minefield. There is no good way to walk through the maze and it is a maze with yucky and good things based so much at random which makes it worse for the traumatized person because once again you have little to no agency at a time you really need it.
    I have had a spectrum my issues is that several therapists leaned on me or I was aware enough because of my gifts and training they were not able to handle my life circumstances. Another issue was the complete and utter separate role of the therapist and docs inpatient and outpatient
    It is a huge horrific desert so that the one professional who could at least advocate is also locked out by the medical system.
    Training Steve can provide extra but it in no way shape or form is any sort of guarantee.
    I would advocate for a shamanistic system which is inherently peer sensitive along with a fine tooth selection of useful and helpful wisdom writing from all areas and all times.
    And my work was always to put myself out of a job.
    That was always my shared primary goals and it was a team approach. I never thought I knew it all and was open to see my work asa journey for me as well. The system is so corrupt and rotten that these tenants are little found. The docs are lost like CEO’s.Most have lost their moral souls and compass and are deaf -blind – and dumb in the worst way possible. They do damage on a daily basis and at this point I have have found no good way to put an end to their great damaging of humans.
    This was the most horrorific part for me being in the system. They abused and tortured one of their own and didn’t even care or believe or bother to ask and actually listen to me as a human.
    It was a gift in learning the great pain of disenfranchisement. At least I can use it for good and to finally be brace enough to speak truth to power for all of those caught in horror situations.

  • Emmaline and Elizabeth
    I worked with RD’s and still know some.
    What is important hear is the “othering” unintentionally going on.
    In order to dialogue well and there is a learning curve here
    Read Kein Uris he has a great section in working through listening and responsibility.
    It would have helped if Elizabeth had said
    Catnight
    I hear you and others have a hard time with the use of my terminology in the article
    How best can I reframe those phrases?
    Oh trauma yes thanks for bringing it up and I will have to do more research on that aspect
    Power plays a role even in conversation and now blogging.
    Colonialism 101
    It would be interesting to have a lunquist well versed in oppressive societies do an analysis of the power plays in this dialogue
    May not have been intentional
    but there you have it.

  • Again Elizabeth reread your words!!!!!!!! ” I have found a way to get many people get past their mental suffering.” I am not denying your knowledge base’s truth or ability to help folks. You are not a savior and your terminology is still problematic in my eyes. That’s what got Carl Whittaker, the famous family therapist, in trouble – he drank his own cool aid.
    I think most psych survivors are open to new helpful ways. The terminology you use is important. Mental suffering my foot! Let’s do the time warp again! As far as I know you have no idea what suffering really is. It would be helpful to take off that mask. Get in the mud and find a way to describe trauma issues, nutrition issues, medical issues – pellegra sp? – actually did cause altered mental states as well as syphllis – the environment ! “Silent Spring”.
    I was also a LISW for twenty years in the trenches of urban areas and severe trauma, humility is everything. Again think on it.

  • I understand but everyone needs to think long and hard on how to dialogue with each other in order to change things as the are.
    First is respectful listening with a vocabulary of compassion.
    Then there needs to be an acknowledgement that we all have hidden or visible trauma.
    You can’t be human and not have it.
    You have to take off the masks and get down on the floor
    Some folks do it better than others and it is a learning curve.
    See the musical
    “Fantastic” and “The Madwoman of Chailot” in particular the ragpickers speech.

    And we have to acknowledge we are working on a puzzle with no box top cover to follow.
    We each have pieces and it will take time and effort and mud and dust and ash to deal with the process.
    Psych survivors like myself suffered trauma in treatment and in life circumstance or with something.
    Our feelings and needs for the ability to acknowledge and help deal with inherent triggers in dialogue had to be understood and acknowledged.
    I am very aware that if I use my name and degrees it will be seen and heard in a different light then if I use my name here.
    Same person two sets of realities.
    The voice changes and the stigma begins when you state your full reality many many times.
    Before my time in the belly of the beast I was aware of psych survivor movements and some in the professions.
    At times the ones who opened up were gossiped about and derided behind closed doors.
    I hated that as well and I am so sorry I was not able to stand down their words.
    We all carry baggage memories of what was done and what we could have should have done.
    My concern with this blog was in Elizabeth as well intentioned and so well informed could not hear my plea for compassionate listening and then responding
    She has replied so Thank you for that!
    What is so hard in saying I
    Oh I am sorry
    I never thought about that aspect
    I will try to keep that in mind.
    Not expecting perfection here just real humanity
    Thanks for your reply.

    I am sorry for the hard times.
    What would your family member think of all this?
    Could there be a dialogue?
    Please think on my thoughts8
    Mary

  • Did you hear me properly Elizabeth?
    Again you used the word mental and you totally ignored the current untenable situation with South Sudan which hilights terrorism and trauma to the max.
    You used the word “they” in a pejorative manner not taking into account or taking the responsibility to share with your readers a fact that every nutritional student in college knows the pervasive desert islands of grocery stores in urban lower SES neighborhoods.
    And the pervasive in your face marketing of the Big Pharma of food companies. They all use the same playbook. They all make tons of money off of us.
    You may have interesting information but that and a cup of coffee will help no one and only continue to hurt your soul.
    Until you allow yourself to go from they to we you will be worst than any the worst of us
    Until you can share in the human world you and your work are nothing
    You are like the APA NAMI Big Pharma all the moneyed interests that care less for others than for themselves
    Read the latest on Syria
    Read the recent books out on mass incarceration
    Read about The Lost Boys of Sudan
    Have you ever once talked with a refugee?
    I have- a family who lived under a card table on the Main Street of Phom Phen sp?
    Have you ever talked to a grown man who was a lost boy? Gentle kind men and so so very fragile with the torture they survived.
    Have you ever spent time with folks in deep deep trouble and trauma?
    Have you ever experienced times if deep deep trouble and trauma?
    Until you can honestly claim both and use the vocabulary of compassion
    Don’t bother replying
    And BTW
    Check out
    Cry the Beloved Country – one of the first of many many good reads on Aparthied.
    Mary O’Malley MSW MFA

  • I do recoil from the term mental illness. Actually it’s a trigger but in order to dialogue with folks until they become more aware I will merely mention my discomfort and put it on the table.
    Please think on it. Your ideas Elizabeth are interesting and very worth consideration as one piece of a multilayered puzzle.
    Where and how that piece is located is still unknown.
    If we take off our 1 st world glasses and take a very painful look at let’s say
    South Sudan and child soldiers who are returned home in apparent altered states nutrition would play a role as well in a big way trauma
    And how do we heal these children much less our own foster children who are experiencing devastating but different trauma as well
    Healing costs in time – money – labor intensive with each individual persons own code so to speak to and for maintained healthy living.
    Cry the Belived World

  • Yes but there is a important historical caveat here. Dry eyes is actually a dumbed down terminology for Syogern’s Syndrome sp? It is related to the immune system and immflamuation
    . It has a high cluster for females. The term has been used for decades and was never something that any of the docs I knew got excited about. It’s an inconvenient but workable medical issue for most people. Having a elderly relative with it I know it wasn’t pleasant but not overwhelming.
    Like most of these issues, I would prefer more research and exploration of nonpharma interventions. Always, always with every medical or actually human issue money and its intricate loops get in the way of good kind just merciful medical intervention.

  • Wow. Thanks for this.I this I was swatted. More than once I fear. At least it gives mea framework to put my situational memories in perspective. The first supposed swat took place with a neighbor who was a tenant of the rented house next store, and whom I had welcomed into the neighborhood with cookies. It was a bizarre scenario and I made a one sentence statement in a traumatic moment ( when family privacy should have been respected) and she gleefully said very out loud,” I know what’ll I’ll do I will call the police!”It was an act of such nefarious stupidity with waves and waves of ramifications that I would do anything to take it out of my memory bank.
    I am glad to know that this is an actual problem and that I am not alone.
    In all my years as a professional Social Worker mother, neighbor,cousin,friend, daughter, sister, niece, peer, I would never ever do something like that to anyone. There are ways and there are ways and our society. really needs to get our act together for all of our sakes. Thanks for the Lind

  • Well hope springs eternal for change on all levels but without complete destruction of everything. I worked with sexual offenders. Not to wash away everything is difficult, hard, and the easier approach would be to throw away the key and prison for life. But then we would not be helping ourselves and would be like so many times in history the oppressed become oppressing. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.I prefer the mud fight messy smelly and difficult and very yucky truth to power is like that. So yes I am not saying be pollyanna all the time but thinking on it, allowing for the possibility that there were underlying and overarching reasons for this horrific fiasco of dead lives and so so much hurt – what happened can never ever be totally undone or forgotten but as Rumi says there is a field beyond right and wrong and for everyone’s souls when the terrible truth is hung out like clothes on the drying line after the the truth telling the penalties and there are always penalties we need to walk into that field together. And I acknowledge some of us will be cursing and none to happy but thats okay nothing in life if perfect -we live in the land of maybe. And my rage has been extreme and ongoing and I still find pockets where I want to do more than scream and yell. Even throwing bricks seems not enough.
    And I know of all the range of issues, all of them and I still say this there are few folks who can acknowledge all of the pain they have caused. It is a learning curve and for some very difficult. A step is still a step to the field. It is the only method I know and have read about that continues life past those awful moments and times of the horror of humans actions done to other humans. The song is a dream hope and dreams are needed.Anger can never be all in all – it will consume everything.

  • Thanks for this. This should have happened long, long ago but I appreciate reading about this. I knew even before I walked through the glass mirror that things were not great and in some places down right bad. It seems things were horrific in many areas in many ways.
    And yes we do need to unite. I love the last song in “Your a Good Man Charlie Brown.” It is – in its very essence – the only way, moral ethical, golden rule way to make this stop and pick up the pieces that remain and the lives that have not yet been lost.

  • Thanks for this Sandra! I envy your ability to speak out clearly and strongly to your fellow peers. I still don’t know how that would go with my college peers. My school was very business orientated like a folks went straight into CPA work and or MBA. The rest of us humanities folks were in the minority.
    BTW. Whatever happened to the medical ethics trend in medicine? Cleveland Clinic did have a designated medical ethics professional on staff who once taught at my college and I actually was in his class. Talk about Upside/Down world. I was being treated by unethical psychiatrists and I was the one with the college credit in medical ethics taught by leader of ethics at a major hospital chain. Way to go medicine!
    Again, thanks. I appreciate your trying though having been on both sides I can get frustrated with process. This was a great effort.

  • Thanks and my very empathetic sympathies. Yes -otherness – is the crime. Look at the horror of Rwanda between two groups of people both sides vilified by the other. In Irish history – to be an informer could get you killed- reasons of why notwithstanding. In stories many are simple folk beset by their own issues.
    Getting a SS check is a red flag. Fear rules. The entertainment industry has colluded with this
    Maybe we need a Untied States of Otherness? That or the island of misfit toys for real.
    We need to unite and work together past all the self and other imposed divisions, barriers, walls, and obstacles. We, Us are such important words. Glad to see you are so brave and active.
    Are you fearful this will happen again? Or with this just the perfect storm? When this does happen how does one cope with the fear?
    The funny thing is most police officers , many have their own issues and many are in or in enforced treatment themselves – a whole different issue MIA needs to shed light on.
    I would surmise like Sandra’s recent blog and others we are all at the mercy of a few and boy have they done a slam dunk job at pulling the wool over all of our eyes.
    Unite!

  • Back in the very old days our local, city hospital was called the Pest House. It was called that because once you went in you usually never came out or if you did survive you were usually compromised with infection. Samelwise sp? was a medical person who realized the concept of infection but it took twenty years for other medical folk to believe him. So when people did need medical care they would delay and then in the delaying if it could have been cured it was too late. This happened to a relative. There are cycles that different systems go through reform -corruption- reform -corruption. Some cycle faster than others. Unfortunately , we are lucky to be living in massive corruption. If only we can be lava for the reformed part!
    If you talk to old time nurses they will say there are big time issues with nursing care as it is done now. With a gray haired nod that it wasn’t perfect in any way shape or form back then.
    Even in ICU’s there is more professional stuff time at the computer monitor than patient care and talk time.
    And even the you are trying to do the 24/7 family caring – it is extremely difficult, draining, and very uncomfortable.
    And mistakes and problems still are present. Just getting an IV put in can be fraught and wrought. When they have to cal the Air Flight team to put in an IV tube for a young girl and you are on the phone to the primary doctor’s office and can never ever to talk him directly almost crying because the third attempt was a botch and the Child Life worker is looking at you like this is sh—
    So this isn’t just an elderly problem this is a crime against humanity. We are in the modern era and our medical care system is back in the 1890’s!! Thanks so much folks who brought this mess into our lives.I would blame the docs and other medical professionals who didn’t speak up loud or strongly, the government and the huge multilayered – multi factored medical corporate industrial complex that put greed ahead of every human life it touched.

  • Dear Suzanne, So sorry for your loss. It’s like an octopus- the systems we have to live in – so many corrupt tentacles that reach out and reel us in yelling or not.
    Yes medical malpractice help is hard to obtain and even when you do I am thinking there are gag rules and confidentiality agreements that make it. difficult for the word to get out to help and advocate for others.
    Haldol has been used for decades to manage patients. It find it appalling its presence is still around to hurt and hider human lives. There was a so called “geriatric dose” in the early eighties when I was working in a urban centered hospital. Trouble was many of the residents and interns didn’t know about it and wrote out full dosages.
    Sundowning is an issue. I wonder now if it has any ties to medicine side affects. Way back some of the nursing staff did try to mange folks without resorting to chemicals. It depended on the affect given by the patients. If you were humorous or easy – no problem.
    Improv is supposed to help with folks. I highly doubt hospital and Nursing Home staff are trained in this type of technique in any way shape or form.
    In our area there was a Elderly Facility Ombudsman which helped families with all the stages of pre admission and then on. There actually was a book written – “Tender, Loving Greed” by a woman who went through something similar to your awful story.
    In some states, private for profit nursing home facilities were used to take on the flow from closed down state institutions – so much for true and real deinstitutionalization.
    I have found some of the newer for profit hospice outfits appalling. Hospice was started with St. Christopher ‘s in London England. I do not think Elizabeth Kubler Ross envisioned the corruption that has taken place in our health related society.
    And yes every person in a hospital bed should be allowed to have family and friend 24/7 support. That this is not allowed in psychiatric facilities is beyond the beyond.
    I would hope some day we can if possible a national day of mourning for those killed by medical incompetence. Maybe a wall? as in a wailing wall not a border wall!

  • Yes Johanna! Absolutely and include in that private prisons! It is the corporationization of the medical-industrial-gorvernment complex. I am thinking of Henrietta Lax here. Her cells provided millions to research and brought about so much for other c cancer patients and look at how she was treated. It was only after a book came out that there was some compensation for the family and even that was wrought.

  • Thanks Sandra and thanks for letting us know how and why you posted this. They wanted exposure to MIA but didn’t want to risk doing it themselves.
    Why don’t professionals who write in the so called ” Mental Health” field write books with their patients and not just their stories. This is co – opting people’s pain for profit. There have decades of these almost narcissistic books where patients lives are used and the “slaves?” stories are used to give them money and media presence and the nefarious coat of wisdom.
    Again, First Do No Harm is forgotten amid the rush to more money and celebrity.
    Where are the morals? Where are the ethics folks?
    Askforcor. I am so sorry for all your family and your son. Yes have him write here or anywhere. Also if you found some NAMI support lucky you! But you have a voice all especially those in power in ANMI and behind the curtain need to hear! Write more! Good luck with concept of community. I like it a lot although I still maintain heterogeneity is healthier than homogeneity.
    With my cousin who had Down syndrome was in both worlds. Her parents said that doing to much out of her Downie world would stress her and she needed to go back to her community. And she was very very well aware that she was different. She was a great rebel and out of the box person. So community needs to be balanced with other communities as well of all kinds. Balance. That is the question of the ages!
    How do well interact with who we have born with our birth tribe that will never not be and then the tribes and clans our lives have given or thrown at us? Can we all take off our masks some day and see we are more like than different.
    Sandra this is the problem I see with your profession though it was less so in some ways is the psychoanalytic days when all shrinks were supposed to undergo treatment at least the shrinks were walking around knowing they had their own issues. With the advent of biological psych this got thrown out the window so that the wall between doc and patient went up higher and higher. This also happened co-currently with the entire medical profession with the demands on paperwork and the disinvestment in society for caring professions.
    My question to you would be since I won’t buy their book. I would say boycott for their lack of courage. And letting you be their whipping child – the question would be did they understand the concept of therapeutic milue and were they well read with the more humanistic professionals such as Redl, Mahler, Fraiberg, Moustakas, Satir, Mosher?

  • Thanks for this Tina. The Native Americans have had such medical, psychological, environmental traumas since western civilization crossed into their lands. It is amazing that they are still standing and fighting! It gives me hope like with other minority confluences of human groupings. So many abuses and deaths and yet we humans still rise.
    Matt, I hear you and I still struggle. I need to be able integrate my lives as a professional, parent, and psych survivor. Some of the things that have happened have been a pink-slipping while I was at a bank. The memories are torturous. I have outed myself in the past to problems. While I did the NAMI thing
    ( I had no other place to turn to talk about my hospitalizations and med concerns. I had never felt comfortable with them as a professional but I was so lonely and so angry. I thought I would give it a try. It only made things so much worse)

    I sent a letter as they suggested to neighbors asking for money. Bad idea I know. And stupid me in solidarity with others used the word ” schizophrenic”. I think that damaged our whole family in the eyes of the neighborhood. And it damaged me when they would call the police on me. It damaged my children and my husband ( a metal health professional) who was so very very ignorant ( not sure why as of now) of what was happening.
    I am super aware of ” the change of tone” many people use when you self disclose. And the problem is you never know who will be prejudiced and who won’t be. It ls like playing Russian roulette sometimes. The risk can be great and future ramifications can have a long road out.
    I would self disclose if I was in a safe space, with a community for support. I don’t have that. I feel the need to move but family issues are still keeping me here. The expsych patient as parent. There are worlds of issues that never get to see the light of day that we folks deal with unable to speak about them.
    So I have done gutsy things. When the bank had the police and EMS I shouted on purpose Michael Brown, Sandra Blonde and when they tried to put in the van I acted out again verbally saying I was a traumatized female and being surrounded by a circle of uniform men was traumatizing in and of it self. For that I was handcuffed, face masked and restrained. So I can be gutsy but sometimes not in the healthiest way for me. I can only hope I gave those men nightmares – so much for serving and protecting. I called them out on their diagnosing of me. I called them out on my history with diagnosing and doing so much better with folks than most of the psychiatrists. And the shrinks knew it! I could have told them my story. That was not allowed.
    This was an awful incident that never should have happened. The whole thing on police involved in mental health is something that is another issue. I can’t imagine any police officer who wanted to go into that type of job have the desire or the personality set to deal with people in crisis. Communities here and everywhere need folks who are trained and willing to provide emotional CPR or whatever to deescalate and help instead of traumatize and hurt.
    So I still need to cling to my pen name. When I have integrated all my history of trauma and abuse and feel safe then I can come on board.
    Could we have an encrypted site for this and for organizing? Organizing again for me is traumatic. I really don’t want to do do the acting out piece again. It wasn’t fun. But I would be willing to share my ideas.

  • Thanks for this Sera and your commentary Tina.
    I would prefer impeachment but can understand why folks are using the view of a compromised president to make s change.
    It reminds me of Riyadh Kipling’s Captain Couregous .
    A vain and nefarious rich young man learns about true courage and kindness from a Portuguese immigrant – Manuel who died saving his life.
    The rich and the celebrities have been godified and are above the law and common human decency expectations.
    Not all but many and our President is a text book example.
    I hope his time can be shortened without the use of psychiatric labeling.
    We seem as a society to be trapped in unhealthy thinking patterns. We will be paying the price. Interestingly, Kipling was caught up in this circular logic during the years and at the start of WWI.He believed in the cause and actively pushed to get his son in the war effort. It took the death of his son and the true carnage of the battle to open his mind.
    Thanks again.

  • This is so frustrating to read not only because of the study but where the study was placed for the general public to read.
    Science always has a place but the complete lack of focus on the infant’s physical,environmental,medical and family variables – in my eyes-negates the results.
    I wish media would have a for every new study or research paper there also would be published another on the same subject matter but with opposite results.

  • Dear surviving the system and Sandra and others,
    This was an interesting dialogue it is a start. Thanks all for your thoughts.
    I think the pain of folks here is palpable and strikes me to the core because I feel it as well. I do wish I could relive my 16 years and undo it all and excise the memories especially the really really bad ones.
    Sandra if you are reading – undoing is on of Anna Freud’s defense mechanisms. Have you read her work?
    Children use it and so do adults though one would like to use sublimation more.
    The damage we have suffered like so many humans do through the Agee is done. No matter how hard we sit for it not to be.- it was. So what do we do with justified anger and outrage. We can use it for good and we can try to let go with forgiveness and acceptance. Not an easy task especially when MH professional folks are unable to go the full ten yards with the idea yes bad things happened, we are sorry, and although we cannot change your past we will try to make amends.
    I think Sandra you personally and others are struggling with acceptance of this paradigm and I thank you for the initial efforts.
    One way might be a medical record line line tool to strike out the label and diagnosis in our charts. Some sort of mechanism to undo the label forever.
    What do folks with Type II diabetes have in their charts when they successful end the issue by diet and other means?
    Maybe this needs to go throughout the medical world.
    Strike Out the Diagnosis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Thanks so much for this Matt. And thanks Lloyd for bringing up Margret Mahler’s work with whom Selma Fraiberg followed. There were issues with this approach but lots of important good things if a person who was in trauma and crisis could get a person like Lloyd. Not many around the country especially these days and in our recent past.
    It made me want to cry reading this because if I had the option this is a person I would have gone straight way for help. I was never able to reference Mahler, or Fraiberg Or Real, or some many other folks because they people who were on the insurance boards or who saw me were unaware and uninformed and I was in too much of crisis to be able to think about what there knowledge base was.
    I was being evaluated by folks who had never read or s studied what I studied and never had the intelligence, medical and professional ethics, and curiosity to ask or see me as an intelligent professional and parent with loads of life and yes maybe even goodness to share. I was seen as other and as a dangerous other. This is what I s till need to cry for. The drugs and trauma took the ability for me to cry away. I have times where I think I should be crying But am unable to start. Because of the lack – anger is easier to draw upon. Bad all the way around.
    The idea that Lloyd articulated so well of the opposition an anger and rage being legitimate emotions and steps up the ladder of life development is so true and so very very very MISSING in our society and in the psych world. Greed and little minds and extremely tiny hearts rule. And how can they all sleep at night?

    Matt, I think you need to do some research on Aeuspcalian sp ? Authority. That is the contract that lay folks consent to when having a medical issue or crisis. We give power over to professionals who are suppose to help. The contract in psych world has always been corrupt ( looking at its history) and there have been bubbles of times and only in certain lucky places where the contract was not broken and it worked.
    There will always be sickness and there will always (if we survive in our world of ours as it is today) people who have been traumatized in primary ,secondary, or tertiary ways.
    How can we put in place a working contract for dealing with this in a healthy way?
    How. can we create a new paradigm of healing for all?
    Lolyd’s way created way problems too – see and read Se Miller’s “Family Pictures” for what went wrong with that approach in the past.
    There will always be mistakes made, errors created even with all the best intent in the world. The proverb ” the path to hell is paved with good intentions” is around for a good reason.
    How can we all redo and put in place the idea that nothing is perfect, anger will there for good and sometimes not good reasons, but the idea that
    trauma doesn’t have to be a fuel for misery, it can be a tool for strength.
    We cannot be afraid of each other. How to teach empathy to folks who are committing abuse of the A sp
    contract and how to get them to apologize for what they have wrought?
    We need a framework and we need a think tank.

  • Great Idea. Good Luck.The DSM was only supposed to be a codifying tool with the use of symptoms that never were based on anything scientific in the best sense of the word.
    It was all about human being ‘s observations of other human beings with a nonegltarian bent.The observer had ultimate control of the observed.
    There was as in all medicine a silent agreement that this relationship and balance was in the best interest of the patient.
    people yielded to this relationship with the hope that the entire ethics of the Hippocratic Oath would be abided by.
    If one was lucky with being at the right place – at the right. time – with a ethically good person. One may have been helped. Ultimately many, many folks were not.
    The idea of trauma and sense of true medical ethics was smashed.
    It became a handbook for another round of snake oil salesmen like the Victorian Medical medicine men whose practices preyed on the so called “hysterical female.”
    Let’s bury the book.

  • Thanks for all your commentary here.Life just has been so hard for your family and that is so unfair. I am glad that your daughter is better. Coming out of inpatient and even other monitored living arrangements is difficult.
    It took me years to begin to be able to verbalize what happened to me and I was a former mental health professional.
    Continued good luck and hope for some peace.

  • Thank you Katie for this. It describes so well the dilemma we as psych survivors or folks now in various levels of the system on various sides of the system have to face.
    When I was in as a professional there was a lot of gossip about folks who were professionals who had come out about their history. Many times it wasn’t mean but there was a definite change of vocal tone and general sense of unease at best. Worst was the mocking.
    For awhile I followed NAMI and that was the worst choice of my life. Telling usually doesn’t help since we are never given passes.We are always watched and beholden to others.
    The sad fact is I think that many folks are taking meds and they don’t share that. That makes everything so much worse!
    Glad you have your space. I still open to find it someday.

  • Well it seems as if this is a better alternative to just drugging I have some concerns.
    There is no mention of why the kids were depressed. Big important factor in assessment and treatment.
    The treatment scenario highlights multiple approaches and seems isolating
    What must kids need – if they are safe are peers fun and a way to get out of their me-ness.
    Some of these approaches work but should be done in a community setting.
    Volunteering,job, creative activities,art,music,theater,comic book club, whatever works and fits best.Parents – even ones with great weaknesses- still know their kid best
    Some need lots of help -some just need a different pair of eyes
    Kids just want -desperately need to feel okay about themselves and to be able to contribute somehow to the world
    Riding a bike – same process
    Each person is different but most of us are able to learn or there are creative ways to make it possible
    And btw DBT is for the birds- not in a good way

  • Thanks for this Sera. This has been an ongoing issue for me. I remember an episode of ER where the adolescent was being drugged and wanted to stop but was not allowed to. The leap from “Splendor in the Grass” to this movie says sadly too much.
    I find the concept of DID interesting because for me going into the psych world and then trying to do the psych survivor world it is like having different personalities or living in different worlds or realities. I had over fifty years as a an “aware” but not really “aware’ professional and then my less than twenty years of psych world.
    It reminds me of the old children’s book”Caps for Sale” which cap am I going to wear today?Actually my memories keep all the caps on. But I still haven’t integrated them into my entire self. They are so bad, at times horrific in terms of hospitalization that I think I and others really need a ritual to process them and go on with life. Sometimes I escape the memories but that requires no integration. Some day I hope to accept all of me.
    The issues are so complex, so deep, and twisted I find myself getting snickered and then oh no sets in. Movies, and books, articles, and news so can all look good at first and then no.
    And how does on fight Hollywood? Especially when there is so much yes and needed – to steal from Improv- Yes for some folks meds work and for many others they really really don’t.Many don’t want to listen after the yes if you are working that way. Sometimes No is louder though less nuanced for better and for worse.
    “King of Hearts” and “Madwoman of Chaillot” are movies and or plays that show a less fearful aspect to psych world. We desperately need modern and better versions.

  • I feel the need to clarify my first post. I used Alice Miller because not only did she discuss childhood trauma she also discusses the systematic non-caring of children in our society. The rule of silence is golden is still too sadly true.Children now are products for advertising. How much money can they bring to the coffers?
    And when one is in the grips of the Big Pharma lie and one sees their child getting abused, or hurt, or in academic trouble it is easy to go for the chemical brass ring. It is the only ring one has at times or is given to you. To search out and follow through with other treatments requires time, money, and energy that many parents or caregivers just don’t have.
    Glad MIA is getting on the parent bandwagon. There also has to be the acknowledgement that sometimes parents are on the rat wheel just as much as their children.And how to we help those families?

  • Hi Margaret, Thank you for your sharing and congratulations! I can so understand where you are coming from on multiple levels. Its so hard when your are off medication and the people who are in your support network have no understanding of why you are on the journey. It would really help if there were support for people going through withdrawal. Kind of a support system people who helped out with those who were dying from AIDS. Not exactly the same level of seriousness but I think to be fair to those around us who see us in distress they need to have skills in helping us live and survive the distress. Another metaphor would be the ancient Druid schools where they induced an altered state. Most schools have PTAs and I would guess back then there was probably either a formed or organic support group for the families of druids or druids to be.
    I think the intent of NAMI was sort of like that but they were taken off course in one of the ultimate acts of evil I can think of.The Pharma folks saw an entrance and ran with it. Talk about birds of prey.I have tried and am still working through this with others. There is no societal pathway for this mutual experience to follow, I guess we are making it ourselves.Blood,sweat, and many ,too many tears.
    Good for you. I hope one day to follow in your steps.

  • Thanks Stephen an waitinseattle for your comments. Yes I agree not accepting the memories is worse than denying them. My problem has been twofold. I live in a state that just ended their one peer organization ( not that it was great but it was there) and I don’t have a cadre of peers to work through the memories – other than this site. It would help to have sometime processing them and doing some rituals and letting them release any negative hold. I don’t do advocacy or community protest or walking or anything now after the police incident. I do better when I am away from the state and the local. And some Social Workers are great. I think the divide I have found is because I would like a more peer yes I have been there component. That is missing and that is a big loss.
    It ‘s also invisible too. After the police incident which I ramped up on my own recognizance because I felt I was stuck no matter what I said and I was coming from white privlege so I shouted out some names and acted out. I know bad idea but I thought and felt I was in a corner and if there was scene I was going to make it a social justice scene.
    So now I am stuck inside. A religious group had Circle the City with love march and praying and handholding and no couldn’t go – twice. A group of friends that knew as me as nonmad – no can’t go. I can’t keep up the behind the closet door anymore but there is no safe way out. Triggers everywhere. I jump every time I see a police car. I have relatives who are police. Can’t visit or go there anymore.
    The bank that I was in. All. I wanted to do was talk about withdrawing some of my holdings – A t topic my family and friends knew I was thinking doing -the person that called the police. I have no words for her. My anger is hard and I am trying to forgive but it’s so hard to forgive when there is no Sorry.
    Eve, think on that for a while! How will the medical profession apologize?

  • I am glad you are brave enough to post here. When I read all of your experiences and travels and positions I did become envious. How to dialogue with and still acknowledge the position of power you come from and the position of not power so many of us here have experienced? I am glad you finally saw the light. There is part of me that wants to say,” What took you so long?” but you know we all have our learning curves and you are here.
    People have medications because they have been told by advertisements and friends, and professionals that every problem has a medication to go with it. So many folks are unaware of the history of psychotherapy and really good Social Work ( it did happen- not well all the time for sure -not much- but it did happen) The phrase “Better Living Through Chemicals” has been tattooed on many of our foreheads. This is not a choice this is being pushed into the quicksand.Brainwashing on all levels.
    Beside writing another book- What are your plans? I have always advocated a Truth and Reconciliation type of response to this problem but as many as noted this usually comes after the winning.
    I worked in and then fell into – was pushed into the system. With the ongoing flashbacks of past hospitalizations that I have found no way to totally divest myself of – the violation memories – my sense of self esteem, my ability to believe myself and my perceptions, my sense of safety, my sense of pride, my sense of well being has all been violated and damaged -greatly damaged by the psychiatric system of management and hospitalization practices that are more similar to Bedlam Hospital in England than not.
    It is great to have your voice painful that it is for me but I m more than willing to have you here! Welcome.

  • Thanks for this. As a parent and medical consumer I tried to avoid the ER as much as possible.
    I found repeat visits to docs sometimes were because of poor medical thinking and poor interventions.
    How can we have medical quality when there seems to be a continuous flow of problematic issues in the system itself?

  • Thanks Stephan I definitely feel that is a part of the problem. When I did field placement in graduate school I worked in a public school district where desegregation had. taken place. The problems was the students were bussed from the urban areas then to the suburban areas and visa versa. The faculty and staff remained behind. That effectively cut off the relationships the school faculty and staff had with the community and students.
    A Black principal could no longer pull out an irascible boy in the hallway and give him a lecture stating that she knew his grandparents and had taught his father. Her eyes and the community’s eyes would be on him. No more. I am not sure if this was a planned or unplanned consequence of this school district’s desegregation plan.
    I also miss the concept of front porches. So much has been lost in terms of the history and threads of community.

  • I would say as person who worked as a MSW on a urban city hospital’s general medical floor decades ago and as a parent with many children with many medical special needs, as a caregiver and support of friend, sister, husband, mother with Stage 3 to 4 Cancers, and as a person who was in the underbelly of psychiatry – the downward drift of all medicine has taken place at all levels. I would also include and consider other professions as well. As with teachers, government officials, police officers, therapists, there are still people who somehow survive the barriers and burnout factors to deliver. quality care. However in different ways and on different levels there are both small frustrating gaps and large overwhelming gaps. Some are systemic like the racism that is intertwined almost invisible in the systems, and then there is ennui enforced by paperwork and profiteering. All hail the bottom line of profit and greed to the one percent. Even medical professionals have become cogwheels and we all are less because of this.
    If you look at the complaints and problems of side effects for psycho trophic drugs which you have so often written about the — obesity, the Stage II diabetes, they are the exact same problems that have been growing in the general population and worse of all – in our children!. Our community has just been the canaries in the coal mine.
    Something has been lost in our communities, in our nation , and in our world. I can’t put my finger on it, but the loss is real and dangerous. Maybe it is the experience that African Americans and other minorities have always felt. I don’t know. Maybe it is my white status and privilege. Or maybe we all have been affected by something negative that still has no name.

  • Thanks Phil for taking the time to refute.
    In 1982, I heard the old sawhorse description of Psychiatry being 100 years behind Cardiology. Exact wording!
    Back then the docs were bewildered and frustrated because the so called existing bio markers were not appearing in any sound scientific way.
    My guess is with all the chemicals being thrown at and on folks like ECT there is a pathway of false positives.
    I did see one person really improve with ECT. One.
    And I have had family members improve on medication after trying to stay away.
    My own experience with medication and treatment has been less than positive down to horrorific.
    Placebo effect and other things were are not even yet aware of play a role.
    Research has been so badly designed and executed along with the co opting of BigPharma that it’s seems like a huge can of worms for all of medicine
    The other factor is the co-opting of patients” group by Big Pharma and other monied groups.
    One almost has to read every detail on the group’s website including board of director or advisors to be able to get a good peek st the true nature of the group and even then it can be hard.
    Medicine lost the do no harm ethic a long time ago.

  • I like your joke!
    Yes we need many other exposures and my reference was not real but at least they had a shaman character and good writing
    My problem was that I was aware but had so many issues to deal with and my brain being altered that I could not use my knowledge base or even really access and so much of my base was just within me or I was too embattled to reach out to those who could have understood or helped out
    Even those who were somewhat aware really could only focus on medication
    The psychiatrists that I interacted with as a patient I found to be worthless
    So May in the field have either left or become one with the system

    Your article will allow so many new dialogues!

  • Thanks for this! I enjoyed hearing about suffering ADA part of life and learning tool. So much and so many things covered.
    It is so frustrating not to have a “Nothern Exposure” life where folks are unable to have both medical viewpoints available to them.
    I loved the scenes with the shaman on that show and would have loved to had access to that option early on
    It wasn’t that I wasn’t aware it was and is the walls of inaccessibility.
    So much dialogue possibilities if we all had open ears.
    Reading time!

  • Thank you for this post. I think TBI needs to be highlighted as a hidden issue in the MIA world and in the Mental Health world. It would be great if someone from the NFL post concussion community would post blog.
    There are connections but the powers that be have done such a solid job of keeping everyone separate that it is so hard to make good and thus fruitful connections.

  • Thanks for this work
    Corinne.
    During the beginning of the Plague years in Europe the doctors used a phrase usually in Latin that said “patient gets worse with treatment”
    It took many years to discover the cause was due to rats but by that time many many folks had died.
    It might be a good time to read “The Pied Piper of Hamlin”
    Food for thought.

  • Hi
    I am putting my ten cents worth here.
    I was appalled at your like of knowledge of the history of psychotherapy and treatment.
    Please read writings of Dr Loren
    Mosher and read about Soteria
    Therapy has been done for decades and with some success especially in the priveleged status folks
    Trauma informed Therapy began with Dr Henry Kempe and the medical acknowledge ment of child abuse though we in America had Animal rights long before child rights
    Dr
    Judith
    Herman and now others have delineated the impact of trauma and we in the world have huge huge amounts of it that the powers that be would like to just cover up
    Trauma affects generations
    Read info on secondary trauma of adult children of Vietnam vets
    This is both PSTD and medical issues like Agent Orange.
    Also read Joanne Greenberg

    INever Promised You a Rose Garden” a fictionalized account and pen named account of recovering from psychosis.
    Read psych survivor stories
    Claude
    Beers and all the names my mind won’t come up with.
    Joanne Greenberg even has a wonderful book on a deaf couple and their traumas
    Did you know folk have different dialects and languages in sign and some would get locked up because of bad translation?
    Read
    Selma Fraiberg’s
    ‘Ghost in the Nursery’
    seminal article on Therapy for traumatized moms.
    Yes Therapy way back way back with No Meds!
    Read Fritz Reidel
    “When we Deal with
    Children” a book about residential treatment with you guessed it No Meds
    There is a lovely book written on homelessness by D C’s Community for Creative Nonviolence with a lovely introduction by either both or one of the Berrigan brothers.
    Read Nelly Bly’s account if her inpatient stay.
    You mentioned anxiety and issues with meds and you are here on this site –
    Do some hard research and come back and let us know your thoughts!

  • Thank you Jarrett for being braver than I at this point on multiple levels. Kudos!
    To you and Matt regarding DSM conniving.
    According to. DSM workshop I went to back in the day it wasn’t in boardrooms but basement rec rooms and kitchens. Though boardrooms were there always as invisible guests. The doc leading the workshop called what it was and is hanky pi
    This was known but somehow scrubbed out of general medical knowledge.

  • Thanks Bonnie for brining kindness
    I am still all over the place with a sitting spot but we do need a coalition.
    Once concern I have heard is what to do with traumatized folks if there is no other structure- a good point
    We are forced to build up and tear down at the same time which is not the best strategy
    But getting folks together is so important and maybe having folks be members of a lot of groups whether it is the best fit or not
    Getting other patients from other areas is important
    Fear is something that needs to be discussed and supports in some way put in shape
    This is not 40 years ago.
    The barriers around and in the Capitol are there and the guarding is there.
    40 years ago one could easily catch a hearing or visit a senator
    Protest gatherings can equal harm to some folks unless it has a veneer of societal acceptence right or wrong as that maybe.
    Even Saul Alinsky would only take on projects that had a 75 percent chance of winning
    Based on that we need to work with other voices
    work on implementing new supports and aids for folks in trouble and then do the end work
    Talking to ourselves despite getting support is too loop like.
    I am glad Bonnie had folks come out to listen to her talk and that should be one method we all should do
    Also take time to talk back about Carrie Fischer’s death.
    All media sources need to hear our viewpoint
    Join Talk Up and Allow others their view if it helps move things on
    We don’t have the luxury of infighting within our life experience
    Let’s just do what we all can
    And hopefully we can coalesce

  • This is important for all of us regardless on where we land on the continuum of MIA.
    It is important because we badly need more peers and cohorts.
    Medicine in and of itself like many societal institutions is self destructing.
    Rates for stressed out docs and the resultant issues are rising and most importantly even folks with cancer are beginning to question Big Pharma.
    There is across the board dysfunction and corruption.
    We have been the canaries and the coal mine is in big trouble
    Please don’t dismiss Stuart’s piece.
    For whom the bell tolls! – John Donne.
    Colalitions make much sense now more than ever.
    Rising voices of all kinds!
    And yes it won’t be plumb level or square- Alan Dugan
    But it will have the great possibility to create change
    We all can play pick up sticks after the victory party

  • You are right there are folks who experience emotion lability after a medical issue as a stroke or even pancreatic cancer.
    It was a problem in the past because no one knew what to do since the standard medicines did not work.
    So this is what good can come out of good research.
    I don’t remember my in law relative with ALS being impacted but I was parenting a special needs toddler at the time.
    I think the problem is that greed fuels so much of our medical/industrial/business complex.
    Then there is denial if the negative impact of many medical treatments and medications across the board.
    Medical schools many many times do not teach how to treat problems arriving due to treatment and medicines.
    It is as if they are fearful to admit their humanity.
    A good doc will always be humane and aware of the whole picture of a patient.
    The trouble is so many decide not to pursue medicine and go of to more lucrative careers.
    This is a problem getting worse rather than better.
    Glad your relatives were able to receive comfort.

  • For United States citizens there is a precedent
    In 1967 the Ford Foundation established funding for First Nation folks throughout the nation for legal services and help
    The collusion between Psychiatry and the legal profession is a huge Berlin Wall obstacle
    The prejudice and stigma attorneys cohabit in terms of even talking about some one who is different is bone chilling
    We all are doa when trying to get legal help for legitimate medical malpractice much like First Nation people’s,the sufferergettes, freed slaves caught in the web of slavery
    It all stinks to high heaven
    Let’s hope the more voices that cry out for all disenfranchised will as ( the one remark I liked that President Reagan said) Tear down that wall!

  • I was struck too by the juxtaposition of entertainment and politics colliding with forced treatment for Kayne and then Dr Judith Herman suggesting Trump be given an evaluation
    This timeline we are living in continues to be so bizzare
    I was watching OA on Netflix and thought that had a nice anti NAMI message and then no the guy turned bad
    T S Eliot had a breakdown before moving to England
    He just waited it out but his family did have money
    Theodore Roethke had issues all the time but I never heard anyone bad mouth him
    My fear is that the letter Herman wrote could put more of us in danger because now the Trump folks have to defend against it and any mention of disability
    Kayne may rue the visit
    Also Hitler and his armies were full of drugs
    Sometimes I think that is why our voice is not deliberately heard
    Too many are on the spinning wheel and don’t want to or can’t get off
    Docs smoking kept the tobacco industry in good stress for many years
    See old adds targeting docs
    e e Cummings is a great poet – interesting fellow write The Enormous Room after WWI

  • Stephan that is why for your very comments we need to have a TRAINED legal entity behind our backs like the activists have
    Standing Rock will be the norm I fear in terms of governmental and corporate payback for protesting. The fear is something I struggle with all the time
    One person told me always have a change of clothes but I really don’t want to live in that mindset
    STAT is open to ideas from readers
    I would push them and others to do a Nelly Bly
    Someone out there must have the courage because it won’t end with us it could easily be all encompassing- too easily
    And thanks Oldhead for the compliment
    More Emily Dickinson letter writing that I tried to learn from as a writing technique
    She was an outsider and everyone respected her as she was
    No police or docs!
    But we all should read “Howl”
    again!

  • Thanks for this!
    This area of need has been put under the nation’s rug for way too long!
    The abuse that happened in the boarding schools much less the whole history of the First Nation people since the colonization of
    Western Europe
    I think sadly of Michael Dorris who died too soon
    He was a wonderful writer
    Please send this to Sherman Alexi
    he his the only other – not including Standing Rock folk- First Nation person that I am aware of that has some influence in the world as it is
    Also a shut out to the memory of Jim Thorpe
    May MIA and others join with the First Nation people’s and all of the disenfranchised groups in our country to help advocate for help for the hurting in all ways shape and form

  • Yes Oldhead!
    Has Legal Aid been so decimated that they are nonplayers now?
    We almost need to have a major financial angel create and establish a law school chair for Mental Health Advocacy
    Also there used to be MSW/JD degrees that have the potential for help if they haven’t been brain washed
    Maryland used to have an Advoacy NGO that assigned both a JD and MSW to cases for the DD many were for getting out of the institutions
    at Great Oaks there units I as a field placement student was not allow to see and this was with my previous experience with being at a field placement state institute in Ohio and advocating for DDchildren placed directly from the state institute to a nursing home
    Maybe they were afraid I would act if I saw something
    They had had some issues to state an euphemism
    What and how did Dr Sidney Wolfe work on getting movement?
    Again Ithink on the book and entertainment industry there was a flurry of documentaries and movies and books on that theme
    Best Boy was a great documentary and Bill played by Mickey Rooney
    Again we have the brainwashing and the huge monies involved that make it so much more difficult now
    Activists now are using cards and have an established legal group to call when arrested
    at a protest
    We should have cards to hand out and legal help for those being pink slipped
    I guess we need an Anti Advocacy Treatment Center
    To have a location and staff would be so helpful to all here
    As long as there is punkslipping asking individuals to advocate by themselves is a lesson in failure
    All or nothing!

  • Welcome to our world
    I came through the same pathway and am still integrating why I became bamoozled by the med tale and how I live my life
    There is shame embarrassment and guilt that I knew better and still I became a walking side effect of meds
    I too missed out with my clients because I was unaware
    The only way I can see through this is to use your voice loud and clear and to find others to speak out
    Integrating myself has been hard
    Who am I – by what names do I call myself and still be true to all the prisms of my life?
    Step by step I guess
    Good luck you are not alone

  • Matt
    Thank you so much for contacting Dr Gold!
    That is what is needed!
    I would love to have her in a MIA round table FB discussion
    Dr Hickey is a great advocate but it is so clear he hasn’t been on a locked unit
    Akenthesia my foot- sorry Philip
    That is a normal fight response from a person who is or has experienced trauma
    And trauma is a locked unit!
    However thanks for pointing her article out and let’s do a round table live!

  • Thank you Robert
    I truly wish I could have been there
    I was in graduate school in D C during the time between DSMII and III
    It was the time right before Reagan became president and when the concept of Family Therapy was in full bloom
    It was a time when Social Work professionals had a long time history from 1905 that was more instead of less
    Good folks where on the front lines and even management had some heart in the Mental Health field
    Not all by a long shot but there had been the sixties and deinstituluzation and the war and that had allowed an influx of more open folks
    The DSMIII was not taught prior or right before that it was a disease model approach at best it was categories in line with GSW and SOB with medical labeling shorthand
    At worse it would be convent for insurance
    They were not meant to be seen as diseases but somehow they were co-opted as such during and after the Reagan era
    If one remembers that time there was a massive and extremely determental review of SSI/SSD
    I saw people die because of those reviews
    The DSM III also dropped which I now consider as us survivor myself label
    Ambulatory Skizophrenic sorry folks I have to do the TWAIN Huckleberry Finn thing here
    It was for those folks who had different or crazy thoughts but could function fine in society
    By taking this label off the powers that be in the APA effectively threw many of us underneath a semi
    I think one could say that was the watermark of today
    Back then med students interns of all ilks could come to open or were invited to closed reading of old literature- case histories- and academic journals
    Learning was made available and many of the time constraints were not in place
    It was all symptoms not disease processes
    When I was dx as borderline and psychotic that never ever would have been the dx before
    Reagan years medical processes
    The use of categories for biological processes is nothing short of medical malpractice except there are few docs who are still around which would could compare and it would still be not enough to constitute medical practice as defined by law as an incident outside community practice
    This gives me hope that someday the confederacy of dunces can be taken down

  • In order to expand all of our thinking
    Looking into other histories of oppression and exclusion
    I found Vold who quotes
    Foucault in Discipline and Punish
    He -Volf suggests Foucaults idea of binary division
    Mad/Sane. Abnormal/Normal
    and talks about carceral. mechanisms
    I think
    SJustuce Sonia Sontemeyer used this concept in one of her writings
    The work is out there
    I think it behooves every person dealing with otherness to research,read,and then act. And more is better – in this incidence than one.

  • Yes
    John!
    Go everywhere where they maybe folks open and or ready
    One of my other life stuff is car accidents and possible TB
    We were hit on Christmas Eve by a drunken driver when the kids were small
    Even now decades after it is hard to pull out the knots and tangles from just that one incident
    Go to all the places where others are at!

  • Note to all!
    For a person with finger issues from drug induced Parkinsonism
    and learning disabilities
    I have many some worse than others
    My posting typos are frustrating to the max
    The edit tool is unworkable for me at times
    This is another ism that gets lost
    Ableism
    I survived and almost successfully adapted to so called normal life with my slew of learning disabilities
    I passed many times and made it through with the help of sometimes a kind and intelligent secretary
    With the change in paperwork and concurrent hugely massive OMG life stressors I was an accident waiting to happen and before I became an almost train wreck U tried hard not to fall of the tracks by doing yoga and meditation even when none of my friends knew what I was talking about or doing
    They had no good 360 view of me
    Many family members too or the ones that got it were either dying or in grief that family folks were dying
    So please excuse the typos
    Some things don’t make what I really wanted to say
    So make those accommodations in your way and a better editing tool someday please!
    The tw prong disability really you know what!

  • Well it is great to see the dialogue even if it is uncomfortable
    So many of you I respect even if I don’t see exactly eye to eye
    Like Stephan G and thanks for standing up and telling your story
    The First Nation Story is so important and many times has been neglected by all the movements
    This forum for me is my contact but I want to add just some more thoughts
    When I had my school social work placement in Alexandria the school was officially desegregated but not unofficial
    It was just a transfer of kids from one school to another with staff and faculty staying in place
    The African American and White communities all lost out especially the Blacks because any subvert strengths the community had built were made roost turvey by this change that was not really a change
    So principals in the segregated times knew families in generational terms
    If you got in trouble you would know your whole family would know
    With the transfer of students this chain of communication was broken
    I think this happened to the disability movement or maybe we should say
    American Ither Movements
    It looked and walked like a duck but no it didn’t really sound like a duck even though the power that be said it did sound like a duck and it was a duck
    Ways to make things were while making cosmetic improvements!
    The de facto tool for segregation then became reading scores
    And the used to be a white school library murals
    I was stunned all white Western European story book characters and then little black sambo in a loin cloth
    This is whatmI think from Matt and others life story
    Until you walk into that type of room and the subvert racism you just don’t no you just can’t really get it
    And the powers that be know that and COUNT on that to divide all of us others in whatever way or shape we are as other
    I worked with two outstanding actually more African American professionals in the system
    As far as I can tell they have all left my locale
    Which says what I am still left to deal with here in the rust belt ble turned red state
    The AAPsychiatristvwas the one who suggested staff try a haldil pull to see what it was like
    We were all too afraid
    How I wish he would have been around when my life was falling apart
    I think he could have helped prevent me from getting into the system but who knows?
    I also had a great supervisor but again he also left the area
    I had tried to but family in the end made it hard to leave
    Anyway
    How easy it is for us to digres into our own stuff
    Have to be more aware
    California and the disability and other change groups
    Here I am thinking not only of the deinstututulization movements but all that the powers that be want us to forget
    When folks are making you angry or uncomfortable remember talk and dialogue is so important and no one is perfect and we all need to have eyes wide open especially now
    They don’t want us to dialogue that don’t want us to remember they don’t want us to make overt and subvert connections
    They want us NOT talking and NOT exchanging notes
    Have to remember the long history of otherness in human history
    It’s not just our times it’s all time and maybe if the worse is here we have a chance to at the very least create a wind tunnel if change that may not be a cure all but create a new pattern of life for ALL of us

  • Thanks so much for this.It has been a long time coming
    Dialogue is so important even if we slip and slide with our words.
    I always fee torn and worried because I ave been partly aware since childhood
    I am thinking now there may have been more of a family story that I was initially given since my family was aware of Paul Robeson and his life- my mother had membership in the NAACP-my grandmother talked of a quadroon student being a student in her Normal School-and my mother was very aware of the whiteness of state institutions for those folks family didn’t want to care for
    So I am wondering about this because it affects me and how I can interact and support without bein dismissive or racist
    I try and sometimes have gotten into trouble – being punkslipped-because I did make an issue
    My hardest part is speaking with folks who are dyed in the wool raciists. I don’t speak up or give up at the
    We can agree to disagree part because it seems a failing cause especially if it is a work or business interaction
    I just don’t give them any more of my business
    So thanks again
    We need to do more and I would love all of your thoughts on the recent SNL scene with Tom Hanks playing in the Family Feud game
    Interacting is so helpful to me in growing as a human being
    Isolation is intellectual confinement

  • It seems those of us who are willing and able have a week to put pressure on the Senate vote
    What we need is an anti NAMI NAMI group that would start up from a grasswork level and rise up using the best Alinsky tactics
    This would mean all groups in the game and I mean all would have to colace around each other even if it means holding one’s nose!
    This is not the time to engage in sibling rivalry
    So let’s make and create an activist umbrella organization
    We won’t win but by doing the act of creation a paper trail and stone path and road map would be created
    If Standing Rock can do it so can we
    Email me at [email protected]

  • Fingers issues again!
    Edit tool doesn’t work for me
    So I am fully aware I am reccomeding reading a white privileged male who had a breakdown in his twenties but was really never treated in the usual wa
    His first wife had tons of issues
    He would have been a NAMI poster child
    But his words sill carry weight for ALL
    Use that wisdom you have to do something
    I am trying but sometimes it is hard to get fear to strike out!
    Hope someone gets the reference!

  • I am assuming you are a person of color
    If you look into your history yes folks stayed far away except for jobs from the systems
    The gate is something you need to work through
    In the end it doesn’t work in the long run
    I have tried hard to use it and then let it go
    Everyone on this site needs to read T S Eliot quartets
    Wisdom
    “for us there is only the trying – the rest is none of our business”
    And I say this full well knowing he has been called an anti-Semite and other suff

  • Sorry finger issues again
    I was driven to the er by a clueless person who didn’t know what else to do
    Family members need to be educated as much as docs!
    I am reminded of the first ‘Planet if the Apes’ movie where the main character sees reality for the first time with the buried Statue of Liberty
    As a former LISW I feel like those words he shouted could have come from my own vocal chords
    I knew and had some great respect for some of the docs I worked with
    I was too ashamed to call on them when I first ran into issues
    The ones that treated me for the most part did more harm than good
    I was a therapists therapist What happens when the pillars are thrown into the horrirific system we have now?
    We fall into the cracks like all of the others
    Wat does that say Sandra?
    Please take Matts words to heart and do read the late
    Fritz Reidals work on treatment of children and adolescenence
    He got it mostly right
    On Wikipedia his notation has only been in German
    Says everything
    But fare forward!

  • Thanks Matt for your cogent reply and thanks Sandra for all your efforts at trying.
    Having had feet on both sides of the deck I feel pulled multiple ways
    I have experienced altered states due to overwhelming stress and was not helped but harmed
    I fully believe my PSTD symptoms came from ‘help’
    especially from inpatient so called treatment should be called for what it was and is warehousing to use and old but still important sawhorse
    So much of that in some many areas of our society these days and U fear more to come before it is really turned around
    The other issue is MAMI and family members
    I was driven to the er by my husband sev

  • Matt and Paris
    Thank you both for this.
    On the topic of vocabulary
    Sometimes one needs to use words for their ability to convey a certain understanding regardless of its political references
    I understand both viewpoints but if a word gives some folks more clarity than I would say use it but make sure somewhere is the acknowledgment of its political difficulty
    It would be nice to convene a congress for a new vocabulary for all of us!

  • One more thought.
    Has anyone including those in the field of disability studies done a careful study of when and where mental illness became a entertainment horror cum sideshow/freak show commodity?
    This seems to be part and parcel along with so many other issues.
    Splendor in the Grass versus Halloween
    A Child is Waiting versus
    Fringe or X Files
    Very white but still lethal
    Ivan remember watching The zElephant Man the movie was was horrified David Lynch I think took the horror film shooting and delay of his being seen on camera as anon protested explicit directorial tactic
    I had no issues with the play
    or many plays that delved deep into madness like Equas or even Man of La Mancha or de Sade
    there was some sort of honor that surrounded the story even if it contained horrors
    Just a thought
    And BTW who is funding this type of art?

  • Joann
    I am sorry for your pain.I am sorry for all of our pain.
    By coming here you entered into a doorway.
    It is discumbulating at first but like a 12 step program if you read 90 stories you will find one that hits home for you.
    I think many here would not deny that folks have altered states but in what to do and how to treat them.
    Many folks are caught in side effect or withdrawal hell
    Many are caught in past or present trauma hell
    There still is no good information that solidly explains why one persons altered state is benign while another persons isdangerous to themselves or others
    We all are learning so Ihope you can stay and take a few breaths and read those 90 stories.

  • No surprise here!
    Anyone who has been treated in the last two decades at most any psych unit and those who were treated in the many many poorly run state institutions will be able as some of the commenters already have -multiple examples of why one would like not to be after hospital treatment.
    My favorite is the psych unit nurse who called me a psycho bipolar bitch
    A label that I will hold forever in my memory.
    If I had a legal expert to use I certainly would try to sue for the breaking of the HIPPA act and the
    some of the doctors I encountered in that hospital on malpractice issues.
    Some docs have no idea of the difference between acting out and psychosis.
    Others come from a different culture and have not taken the time to inform themselves of the nuances of American culture to the great detriment of many of their patients.
    Maybe if any adder mentions Woody Guthrie you might want to ask or even google his name especially now that a Woody Guthrie fan is a Nobel Laurette.
    I haven’t read the interview not prepared for any triggers now but I will
    Sometimes I find it amazing what connections remain invisible or are actively ignored in our world.

  • Just thinking I used strong language
    It is the afteraffects of the beginning part of my most recent treatment experience
    It was bad
    I am trying to acknowledge the trauma but still hold on to allowing for restorative justice and not fall into letting anger lead all the time
    It doesn’t seem worth it in the long run but boy when those memories rise up yikes!

  • Hi Nomaidic
    I know you were talking to Steve but here is my 2cents worth
    I think one aspect of seeing recovery useful in whatever way you define useful does not always negates political and legal action of all types
    I just heard about how compassion works better when fueled by hope rather than anger and or guilt
    I think that view has value
    For those of us who have been hurt sometimes multiple times by the helping system it ain’t easy but I think works better in the long run
    Try everything and especially try to do what works best for you
    Getting lawyers involved or legal advocates would help though at times I not sure about them in general
    Just as long as they have heart and game like Jim
    G
    Onward!

  • I just remembered a name that is not mentioned much anymore but it would be interesting to hear his viewpoint of this type of treatment
    Dr Robert Jay Liftin did a study of how doctors in the Nazi regime were able to use certain mental gymnastics to allow themselves to participate in the Holocaust
    The Nazi Doctors is the title
    My best guess is that this is what has happened to the main developers of recent contemporary psychiatry like Dr Robert Spitzer and others of his ilk

    They are deaf and blind to the atrocities being commited in the name of mental health treatment in medical buildings,out patient centers,and prisons and nursing homes
    It would be interesting to read his work and see if there are parallels

  • What is needed for many especially those undergoing or having had trauma in their lives
    And I am thinking here if all life issues macro and micro is a therapeutic tool box
    They would need a mentor versus a professional
    Not saying no professional help just a relationship which would help design the box out of that individuals needs
    Could be either or or both
    Muscle memory is needed to be able to use the tools
    12 step folks have the steps and sponsorspsychdynamuc folks have the concept of transference
    Musicly incluned folks have their music memory and recall
    Visualfolks can use art therapy as transference
    The old mom saying of “whatever works” is true
    A refuge or place of safety and peace helps tremendously in woeking trauma
    our
    The medical hospital is not the best place if it ever was and that is nightly debatable for even “good programs”
    Right now most folks have to have a creative and resourceful in terms of pockets and mindset to self design and discover how to put together and then actually use the tools
    Truama houses of hospitality would work well
    Hourly meditation groups 24/7 with lifelines to a rainbow of resources and payment options
    If only we all could make them so!
    Then medication wth a designed program of tapering would be used at the end of the continuum instead of for every one in the continuum hook line and yes sinker

  • Cat
    I am sorry you had such a difficult time
    I always tried to avoid ER ‘s at all costs but my husband used them for me and last time I seemed to have nowhere else to go
    There are places like retreat centers that are low cost to visit but they are really not prepared for any crisis and you would have to be able to discern you are in need of r and r and that takes discernment
    From now on I know a certain month is filled with old and new triggers and I will be sure to do slot of self care next year
    Also we need short term trauma centers as a proactive approach even hospitals that have designated psych er rooms are a journey through hell
    Very few people want to use services this way
    The medical world is st fault for not being proactive in accurately and compassionately planning to care for people in need
    In the earlier times the Catholic Church was a refugee and sanctuary
    No longer!A stay in a Catholic hospital is just as bad as a public hospital or private one.
    Without true Trauma informed care it is just like prisiob

  • This article is putting an academic sheen to old old truths
    Gomers and Gomeres
    Get Out of My Emergency Room
    with feminine take
    There were other words I will not mention and this was in a non psychiatric population!
    Read “House of God@
    by I think Shem Fine
    a pen name for a man who became a shrink
    A parody but one parody that should have taught the MBA’s just out of scchool a wealth of knowledge and burden of sorrow
    St. Elsewhere was somewhat the same but the shrink and patients were not offending or protrayed as horror show characters
    It could have been much worse
    The truth on how ” the other” is treated needs to be explored
    So much for the Year of Mercy by the Pope
    We all need to reconfigure how we see and deal with difference especially unpleasant or uncomfortable difference
    We need to learn how to work with our own prejudice and fear and anger
    Not all of these folks are betrayed Angels
    Some are not at all easy and some of us here need to remember times when we were not our best selves actually everybody does!

  • “Howl” references Rockland State Hospital because a friend was admitted there and imprisioned
    He also references the deaths of other friends an elegy not only for family but for a whole class of creative folks
    Stanley Kunitz does this as well in his poem”The Layers”
    Eliot had a nervous breakdown prior to leaving America and St Loius
    He was not hospitalized and just lived through it
    Big differences in socioeconomic status and culture here
    “Howl” describes what happens to immigrant and others in the rank and file who step out of line
    “Wasteland” is an waspish reaction to the utter folly and destruction of WWI
    which is “celebrating” its 100 anniversary
    Many many poets and writers were killed or damaged
    Tolkien ‘s stories of Ircs and Mordor come straight out of his war in the trenches experience
    In the other hand de Chardin’s theology came from the trenches as well but looked what the church did to him
    Eliot as Ginsberg was multimodal
    He brought ragtime music and other references into the world of the poem
    It was not just writing it was all the arts including chess
    His words as they are alone are music in and of itself
    Back in the past poets were considered essential for a king
    They were school for many years and they actual experienced planned altered states
    They also were chosen art on and mainly had some sort of disability or disfigurement
    We have lost many of our creative artists as in David Foster Wallace
    They jumped on the MH ship and I think it forced them to at least for many to walk the plank and jump
    We are not getting writing like this or if it is there it’s not above societal water
    Marilyn Nelson a great African American poet has a sonnet cycle on Emmet Till
    All of us creatives are walking around with masks on our mouths
    Our society is not conducive to
    thinking creatively and being awarded for it

  • Thanks for this and do listen to the above comments regarding wording
    No big deal I think it was brave of you and we need dialogue!!
    How to create and maintain change
    I always keep my eyes and ears open
    These are things that have come up recently
    Women Suffergettes – Your country had a long and drawn out fight for female voting rights and all
    It is well documented and bares detailed exploring on how they finally won
    One venue was the use of
    Spiritualism- it gave them power to voice he unvoicable
    Similar to Fiddler on the Roof scene of Teve’s wife nightmare and voice of her cursing dead grandmother
    It got the job done!
    Another better operation is in the prison system where there have been ongoing strikes
    We need to partner up with these folks
    Divide and conquer is still a ongoing tool for the powers that be
    They have a vested profit interest in ongoing chronic illness and ongoing incarceration
    How did the resistance in WWII function best?
    Those were bad times and not only was your life at risk but many generals had no worries about killing your innocent family members i.e. See “The White Rose Society”
    If there was a way to coordinate inpatient and or out patient strikes by both and or staff and patients
    Medical schools need to get onboard
    I think those who use VA systems can be useful
    More and more vets are coming together to do their own healing
    See NOR today Here and Now
    12 step folks can be useful whether you believe in that approach or not for yourself
    Open AA meetings with folks who have been in the system in the past can be a guiding light
    We need to create a rope for all of us to climb up the mountain
    And I am thinking MLKJr here
    that way we each have our parts but there maybe several paths and tour guides to use to get to the top

  • Thanks again for all of your hard work
    One might want to delve into more history after this
    The Yellow Wallpaper is a short story by Charolotte
    Perkins Gilman fictionilized fact based story on female hysteria
    This was once again a form of trauma that was medical used and the treatment a form of abuse in and of itself
    This was in the end of the Victorian era when women were beginning to – heaven forbid – be uppity
    This parallels the female suffergent movement and it made a good living for docs
    Another era is the Soviet dissatent years of imprisionment and forced medication
    Whenever there is fear of truth in reality the modern world seems to use and find the Denzions of the devil to help surpress it
    and for some psychiatry has been all to willing to land a hand
    Female hysteria is no longer an issue
    One would hope that in the future this will be true of the DSM and many if not all of its catagories
    More work for research for you and others

  • The problem is that if you allow the eye doc to know your meds
    Then you are stigmitized
    and your complaints are utterly disallowed
    So much for help – if and this is a big the eye docs would really be informed of visual side effects of neuroleptic a
    Knowing some eye docs and some who went into the field specifically because they did not like sick people – my guess is that ignorance around this issue is huge
    One needs to read Merton in his much regettable last years and his defamation against those who are unable to honor the other in the world
    Stunningly prophetic to this very minute

  • Fiachra
    Thanks for bringing up the vision issue
    This gets lost in the discussion so many times
    and not the issue you remember to complain about
    There are so many when taking these drugs or whatever you want to call them
    Lamitical caused nighttime driving hell for me and at times Ibeould be in tears since I was driving kids all over
    Not one doc or therapist ever discussed driving and or visual issues with me or my husband
    This was tantamount to severe medical malpractice because
    I was driving not only my children but others
    I tried to avoid but had such a hard time formatting and putting the problem out since there is almost complete sulence in this matter for various complex reasons
    Lack of color vision yes in a trip I was unable to really see things being pointed out by guides
    Another no brainier but then I had no idea this could or would be an issue
    Talk about lack of informed consent and my guess the only folks that knew where big pharma!!