Wednesday, September 18, 2019

Comments by skybluesight

Showing 182 of 182 comments.

  • “I think or almost know Gus attacked his father in revenge for turning him over for unwanted psychiatric abuse. It is a betrayal of sorts.”

    Yes, I guess after thinking it over , that part is clear. Now the father had no suspicion of this -he was a complete blank. So that is strange, unless you start thinking… well here it is, what was wrong in the relationship – emotional repression taken as normal. He’s sitting there,at dinner , perhaps uncomfortable that his son is not talking but “no anger” is the normal, nothing wrong there, been taken care of or suffocated a long time ago.So it finally spilled over into violence and the father still doesn’t understand.

    Doesn’t take much emotional repression for a personality to get squashed and splintered. There may have been other things wrong but there was this one thing wrong there somewhat certain..

  • What got me in this video was how the father did not seem to know how to communicate with his son. After being rejected at the hospital, he just returned home , ate dinner in silence (no communication) with his son at the table , let him go to bed in silence and in the morning chores til the attack the same ..
    I think he could have hired a survivor or an expert who could have taught him how to dialogue – perhaps long before the end.

  • I informally interviewed a lot of “consumers” at a MH dropin centre – same story over and over again , just like what you are saying.
    Nothing that ever happened to them or is happening to them matters, you see, because they have a brain disease.
    Many of them with outrageous histories of violent abuse,and another thing – they have constant groups in which they are prohibited from saying anything “negative” and must to tell some kind of lie about how they feel today etc. When I participate in those groups, I find I have to hide who I really am, what I do and what my life is really like, and make up a fake self to present, which is fine with me because I am a spy lol but feeling of having to present this false image of self is horrid and twisted.
    It’s the ultimate betrayal of those who are trusting damaged and confused on meds.

    Canada on national TV has this week has a big Mental Health “awareness” week – lots of doctors telling how to use medications, lots of paragons explaining how they now take their meds everyday and they are just fine and it’s justifiable you see, because the whole population is about to commit suicdie.
    Everyone needs “treatment”.
    Pretty scary.

  • Psychoanalysis is to Psychotherapy as a turtle is to a cheetah.

    I read Jan Wong’s description of her psychoanalysis in “Out of the Blue”, and felt like throwing the book at the wall. What a colossal waste of life! She did the medication route with psychoanalysis for all the good it did her IMO.

  • Yes, I have a parent 90 years old going through that abuse right now. I woudl move them, but there is nowhere to go – they are all the same and despite “it’s not supposed to be”, every phone number for reportage goes into a bureaucratic loop.
    They own it lock stock and barrel – the corporations and Government in lockstep.
    Also they got kickback from one particular pharma company and locked out all other suppliers to the corporate chain – even the pharmacists complain – once they’ve gone to long term corporations all the records they used to have access to, go into a black hole.

  • @Carina Thank you for answering.

    Yes, I once read a book on how to become a millionaire. Chapter One said: First get a lot of money.
    I think respite alone can facilitate a lot of what is called “recovery” which is better than nothing but still not personality restructuring. Providing respite is easy for the rich or for the rich plus enlightened plus loving parents.
    So that is good that you have some outreach. I spent many years in the poverty Ghetto , even after I was cured. I would say all of the hundreds of people I knew with mental illness had no useful outside social resources including parents.

    Recovery it seems can be achieved by the providing mostly external things, or respite, the person mostly probably will do some work on themselves , the inner, because of the stimulus of the breakdown process. Other social support is gravy.

    Recovery is not cure but it is better than a Pharma kick in the head.

    Internal changes are a whole other story. I really can’t assess anything unless I hear the shared narratives of those who might have made those changes or what changes they have made.

    Notwithstanding that in your work you most probably have facilitated something positive.

  • Hello Daniel,

    I used to be schizophrenic. I was cured over thirty years ago. I have no trouble understanding what happened to me.

    The first thing I got here is you still have a problem with anxiety. Or do you? I mean does it really bother you or are you just controlling an autonomous reaction such as “Huh! Where am I? Oh I’m here!”…ie no big deal.

    But I suppose like a zen master expecting combat you can control those autonomous reactions if it happens a lot.

    I traveled extensively for ten years overseas, I woke up in a lot of strange places and often had to take a moment to orient myself but I never felt any social anxiety about it.
    So maybe you still have some kind of generalized problem?
    EDIT:
    OK , reading your further description , you definitely have some kind of unresolved problem there. You use a technique to deal with it, but it’s still there.


    I’m wondering – I always want to ask cogent people who have had or have schizophrenia what their experiences with anger are and have they transformed themselves in any way with this emotion?

    That would be pretty much anyone else who might have transformed themselves like I did.

    Oops ! I have to ask – you are using Pharma’s word “recover” so I have no idea what this means to you. You know Pharma’s definition: no more entertaining symptom – pretty much like before except slightly stunned with meds or without and low resilience, needing lots of support.

    So what does this word “recovery” mean when you are using it?
    —–
    I was thinking in this situation how the capability to enjoy a nice bit of rage might be very important to the idea of walking up confident in a strange environment. If a person didn’t have that behavioral repertoire they might go through life on skittles.
    Of course generating peace and calm is good too but that didn’t seem to be your natural wake up state, and I tend to think no one gets to peaceful confidence without having a full emotional range in the first place.
    —-
    No I don’t like your model -trying to make someone be in “dialogue” with those who happen to be in their social network sounds oppressive and repressive and some kind of attempt at social control.
    ….
    A model of individual emotional dysfunction and emotional restructuring is sufficient to understand psychosis.

    A person’s monologue is their kingdom – nothing wrong with that – yes they need open dialogue with themselves within their monologue – you can say their inner monologue is not working well.

    Thanks

  • The document is great – 861 pages of everything I don’t care about and don’t want to know but probably should know – like an analysis of a big pile of excrement.
    ..
    But don’t get me wrong an excellent job and I guess someone had to do it. Perhaps I’ll keep a copy on a podium or desk somewhere and /or memorize relevant sections when I have to deal with Pharma propagandists or the replicant DNA of such propaganda person to person.
    —>
    But you must, I think deal with patients who are being prescribed medications from elsewhere.
    ..
    Sincerely, I don’t care much about psychiatry, do you have anything on psychotherapy (from yourself or others)? hopefully effective.
    What type of people do you work with in a very general sense diagnostic wise?.

    I don’t now what you are referring to with the “genetic fallacy”, I am just caring about the practical issues in any case.

  • Interesting – cataloging or recording the apocalypse you are.
    Good work.
    I wouldn’t get your hopes up.
    ..
    The black box warning hasn’t stopped the rampant use of psychotropics on the elderly in Alberta Canada where they are literally being murdered in droves.
    ..
    Black Box warning sure – but who knows about it? The long term care places give out no info, neither do the doctors nor the pharmacists nor the Government Health Services nor the media.
    They do as they wish.
    A conspiracy of silence – everyone wants to keep their jobs.
    All the official numbers for complaints are a Franz Kafka Bureaucratic joke.
    Also almost all of the relatives of those elderly are fooled blind.
    A perfect patsy population.
    Don’t get your hopes up.

  • “Instead we must recognize that some are better for certain conditions than others, redouble our efforts to identify these and improve them, and ensure that the most effective therapies are available to all who need them.”

    I smell a rat rather than a Dodo bird.
    Perhaps agenda – perhaps such as using this and the DSM to deny various psychotherapies to people as is happening.

    Certainly there are harmful therapies. Dr. David Allen uses psychotherapy to effect his vision of social control, I’ve as much as told him he should work for a totalitarian state, he’d get a place well earned.. and Pharma’s talk-therapy ie “support you on drugs” is another anti-therapy.

    Redouble? huh?. Instead of just practicing an effective psychotherapy? None of this sounds right, like directing a neurosis.

    Ah so…
    “The University of Copenhagen recently compared the efficacy of two popular psychotherapies: CBT and psychoanalysis.”

    So they are actually trying to find out which one is better for everybody. Well, yes some methods are better than others and both those methods are low in the scale of effectiveness. And it’s up to the therapist to make it work, not make it fail. I’m not surprised psychoanalysis was the least practical- they lie down and “talk” without working on themselves except by chance – it’s nuts – it’s like 1,000 monkeys with typewriters hoping to write a paragraph…

    Just find one that works and throw away the ones that don’t or absorb eclecticly the practices.

    Perhaps the question should be reverse?
    Will one size fit all?.. or nearly all?
    Yes, I think so, I’m pretty sure I experienced it back in the day where diagnosis was rather irrelevant. In that particular environment – group psychotherapy – there was no restriction on intake as as far as I know and diagnosis was limited to “not currently psychotic”.

    But having not seen anything like the psychotherapy I used to take in the ’70’s evidenced anywhere, I am pretty much convinced that psychotherapy is currently murdered and buried by Pharma or passed away or hiding perhaps somewhere where it costs a lot of money to access.
    I should like to be convinced otherwise, then I could start making some referrals.

    Commenter Sigler was right, it was as simple study and more conclusions drawn than it deserved.
    I think what therapists need to do is throw out the junk absorbed from from social control ideology and pick up on where psychotherapy left off thirty years ago before Pharma’s “Talk therapy ” and it’s accompanying reversal of goals became ascendant.
    ..

  • Government doesn’t want “healthy people” they want compliant voters. “Exposure” will not kill this monster, it has already been “exposed” and is still living.
    The media is owned by corporate interests and Pharma interests, they decide what is exposed and what is not. For the public to know truth, the public must own the media.

  • Yes,sharing experience and receiving shared experience is the only real communication and real learning that can be made.
    .
    But as for this, I don’t know what has been accomplished here. Feeling sorry for people is a one way process and I never saw it achieve much.

    I don’t really know what success has been accomplished here, the devil is in the details and I don’t see the denials I need to evaluate. Trying to research the websites I still don’t see the details.
    It seems there is a lot to do with money and being wealthy and having co-operative parents and my reservation with the latter is that could just mean some form of social control has been exerted with the subjects as puppets.
    For myself, I need to see the shared narrative of the subjects I want to see if they are emotionally independent and how that has been achieved, what inner changes that have made and how that has been achieved and if they are now resilient and most importantly fully realized and confident with negative emotions.

    Maybe someday the meeting will happen but not yet.

  • Thanks copy cat .
    However,these are single news stories and may not represent the state of law or the application of it today or USA wide.
    They are interesting though and a good point to start study.

    I tend to think if it was the standard the shrinks woudl be a lot more careful , which they aren’t,

    I love Marion’s story – he left town lol – good for him!

    I want to see if Kristina sues and if not, why not? The community should petition here to sue for the common good. The money is not enough – they should be stripped of their license.

  • “For me, one of the biggest problems we have in psychiatry is unacknowledged COI. Given the sensitive nature of the work we do, the power we can wield over people’s lives, the history of our improper relationships with Pharma – even if it turns out all rules were followed – that is not good enough. We should be above reproach.”

    No, I think the biggest problem you have in psychiatry is that psychiatrists learn absolutely nothing , Zero, zilch about human psychology, the mind , the emotins and how they function.

    Psychiatrists are not vetted through any process of inner development nor are they vetted by any process of ego stripping and emotional confrontation. Part of the final exam should be an eight hour group confrontation process in which their innermost processes are examined and it should not be easy to pass.

    the rules were followed

    This is self-delusional, whose rules? The bought off judges,?the bought off politicians? the bought off mental health workers? the corporations? the power elite? the rules of the shrinks , the self-appointed gods?
    Pschiatria is above reproach only because it is above and beyond the law.

  • It’s not trying to fastrack “review”, It’s trying to fasttrack admission on behalf of the drug pushers..

    The article is full of deceit, it talks about medication helping people and people needing medication which is nonsense, and tries to pretend that the solution to violent patients is medication. That last is a human rights abuse and horror.

    They need to go back to providing respite and restraint without psychotropics.

  • Essentially two different gangs of drug dealers are arguing over spitting up the profits. One group has developed a new computer blue super meth that should bring in more profit the other gang leader say they broke the meth gang rules and says it’s so unfair because maybe they can get their own super computer blue meth in at the finish line.

    No one care how this new super meth affects the addicts not even Sandra the gang rep news agent. ie “Again, I am going to set aside the relative merits of this type of efficiency”

    So what to do?. I know , lets ask the relatives of the addicted lobotomized drug users. How should psychiatria death drug dealers spit up their loot? Surely they will know what is fair and what is not?

    Oh and someone protested to the board of Capos but maybe the fix is in – looks like maybe someone greased the fuzz.
    So when the corruptors are corrupt who u gonna call?

    Ah gee, I donno whatasay. What kind of advice to give a squabbling cartel?
    Somehow I think my intelligence was just beaten with a sledgehammer.
    ——
    How about Lesson One from Vito Corleone?

    “Vito is offended, replying, “We have known each other many years, but this is the first time you’ve come to me for counsel or for help. I can’t remember the last time you invited me to your house for a cup of coffee, even though my wife is godmother to your only child.” Don’t show up only when you need something.

  • @Vicki Martin, MD

    What is the role of the public school system where you are?
    Does the Bio-MED Industry in some representative form actively go to the schools and “recruit” more psychotropic consumers. Do the schools have some kind of measuring and snitch program to funnel children to the psychiatrists?
    ..
    My next door neighbor’s kid is on meds for ADHD and “Oppositional Defiance Disorder” His parents are just ordinary workers, they could never understand psychiatric subterfuge or know they are being played. I think he was inducted into this at school – but this is Canada.
    I also met a District Co-coordinator in charge of Community Treatment Orders here in Alberta. She was actively involved in drugging of school children – I think any disciplinary or behavior problems got a kid hot lined to the psychiatric community.
    That CTO co-coordinator worked for Government Health from the Public purse and the Bio-med industry has the complete support of the Government politicians here. I’ve traced some politicians network of contacts.
    Given their awesome combined power political , economic and psychiatric it seems lie entire generation of nails sticking out are getting pruned.
    ..
    I expressed horror to the CTO Officer about a particular kid getting psych drugs – she completely misunderstood me and commiserate on “Yes , how terrible it is they have Schizophrenia at that age.” She didn’t even get what I was saying to her face so firmly was she locked in the ideology.

  • Holy Hannah!
    Got a family member this applies to (was age 2). Well another two of us already knew this. Well now we got an actual !!STUDY!! corroborating what we really already knew. This link is getting bookmarked and SENT!

    We’ve known this in planning our strategy on how we can help here. The situ is complicated by other family politics. Isn’t it the pits when I have the experience to help but and the assistance of yet other family members but we don’t dare upset the current applecart. I can’t give away any more than that but it sucks to have to stand down and watch a life wasted.

  • @ Anon, Very well said, right on ad beautifully expressed.
    ..
    Yes, “inside yourself’. This is it, the inner world. I wish I had had someone like my post-cure self to explain things to me long before that. The wild ride and long road I took might have been much different.
    After I passed over, I reviewed my life and I wondered why with amazement, from all the counselors, shrinks and workers I had seen in my life from all those I had sought out help, why no one had ever told me about this really simple stuff – about emotions, about how they worked , how they could transform and how they were related.
    ..
    But now I know , sadly why…in the general public their meta consciousness, their awareness of their consciousness is very very under-developed and social oppression helps to keep it that way.

    Yes, there is a lot of work to be done.

  • Not completely – (Todd Centybear, executive director of the Howard Center, a Fletcher Allen psychiatrist and a hospital social worker) all these three people need to stand trial and pay for their crimes against humanity.

    Kidnapping, forcible confinement, forced doping, physical abuse for starters. All crimes worthy of capital punishment. Vermont still upholds the Death Penalty.
    Ah good… they still have the electric chair in Vermont, barbarism for barbarism…

    Well if that don’t go over, how about a civil lawsuit and several million in damages.

  • Wow, Nightmare, USA.

    I was astonished ten years ago after I came back from overseas to see SSRIs advertised during the Letterman broadcast. The Juggernaut is just picking up steam.

    ..
    They must have Dr. Phil in their pocket. The other day I heard him tell a guest something not to worry because there are “medications” that can help her.
    ..
    That got my attention like 220 volts! Say what!!!
    Oh no Dr. Phil, say you ain’t a shill.
    ..
    “Don’t worry, we got a custom lobotomy just for that! Tomorrow you’ll be just fine” …

    Then he mentioned the DSM and…it wasn’t good…

    —-
    I listened to Mr. Silver’s statement as difficult as it is to listen to it. One of the commenters said they harvested his son’s organs after his death.
    ..
    Nightmare, USA
    How about some New Nuremberg trials?

  • It’s amazing how Americans accept insurance companies (profit making corporations) as something legitimate. Such is the power of propaganda control. As a Canadian, I have never worried about a hospital bill or a doctor bill in my life. Same goes for the Brits and dozens of other civilized countries.

    The only purpose it seems of “insurance companies” is to exploit the citizens and make the elite owners richer and more powerful by denying health services and facilitating early death in citizens useless to the state (corporate enterprise). This is because insurance is a mechanism that makes profit by denying services not giving them.

    Interesting story Cory, thanks for sharing.
    .

  • Ha Ha Ha, This is so insane it’s hilarious.

    Fascist America – Love it or leave it, yeah I’d leave it ASAP

    Get the Heck out of there, run , don’t have kids, keep the hemlock handy.

    I guess she could just let them win – give away everything she owns, take the meds and say OK now house me and feed me til I die. When you can’t win then lose with enthusiasm.

    She’s been murdered already, might as well accept it.

    Schumacher, who had been seeing a psychiatrist for a couple of weeks, arrived for a previously scheduled appointment Dec. 19, the day after the bodies of her estranged husband and her son were found.

    It was before her appointment at the University Health Center that her doctor had University of Vermont police on standby to take her into custody if she did not admit herself.

    Seeing a psychiatrist – well that was really dumb. Would have cost less to read MIA.

    You believe in the system , you die by the system. If someone believes in authority they might not hesitate to turn me in for my “thought crimes”, so should I feel any sympathy here?

    Don’t trust authority, don’t follow leaders, watch your parking meters, you’ve been warned for decades.

    I wonder did the shrink get a bonus for every patient he turned in – something like that must be in effect.

    If I were all of youse, I’d be careful. You are obviously suffering from Protest Defiance Disorder.

  • Thanks Alex, I’m glad someone is hip to what personal growth is.
    Protecting the egos of people who are “afraid to be blamed” is repressive.
    Here what is being sacrificed is individuals and they seem to be sacrificed to something that is not alive the concept of “family”. This sounds like a social-political agenda.
    ….

    Get down. Be blamed.
    Don’t do the crime , if you can’t do the time.”
    If you are not guilty you got nothing to worry about.
    If you are then fix it, if you can’t fix it then go through the guilt about it and fix yourself.
    The blame stops here, I take the blame, Why not?
    Do it for love.

    ..
    Well OK maybe you have to do magical intervention with some kinds of people. A little legerdemain, a sleight of hand.. nobody is to blame but how about changing this thing here…
    But overall you can’t build on lies or repression and that has to be dealt with sooner or later.
    If you try to save the family regardless, that also is abusive and repressive.- some parents are loveless or frozen in some kind of neurosis in that case all the work or the main work is done with the afflicted person and they will decide their own future regardless.
    Unfortunately the parents usually pay the bills, so taking money from violent or sexually abusive or controlling parents to help them do their thing is not necessarily a good thing. So I suppose it’s best to play a game with these people ..like “gee no one is to blame but…etc”. I suppose at least it’s a hook.

    Usually anyone at all makes any significant personality changes , everyone they know , especially the parents will be in resistance to this change.
    In other words they want change, but they usually won’t like the change they get. Unless of course they have concurrent guidance or therapy.

    People have “levels” of emotional health, a person free of neurosis or who becomes free will be unhooked from those in lower levels or those still caught up in neurosis. Being unhooked they will be emotionally unhooked or disengaged from anything or anyone or any family member that can damage them and those in lower levels will have nothing emotionally to offer such a person. Although one could still relate to them out of compassion or obligation there is simply no emotional reciprocation that can occur.

    So you have to acknowledge this and let the ball goes where it bounces, trying to enforce relationships on other is social control and if you wish to replace the decision making mechanisms of others you might as well use drugs.
    Some “helpers” (eg Dr. David Allen – actually he goes further having an elaborate agenda of social engineering) is ) cannot accept that a family member upon getting healthy will want to break from an abusive or simply dead relationship and they try to force said sad thing upon them. They and probably most people do not realize that the only real bonds we have with others are in the mind , not in the blood. Blood is really an conception we have, it’s not a genetic control and if the conception is altered the bond is altered).
    ..

    It’s not necessarily trauma that causes problems but inner repression. Inner repression doesn’t even need much trauma. Some people were just very sensitive in their development. Some people can suffer oodles of trauma and just become extremely resilient because they are not engaged in inner emotional repression.

    To see if this group understands the idea of real change I look to see if they understand the idea of inner transformations. Most of these families have no idea of the inner life – that is a result of the culture they live in this is how the larger civilization is dysfunctional. So these type of people are easily fooled by the Med Shrinks. A lot of what this group does seems to be work on the outer – to provide a respite or peaceful secure environment for adaptation. This can result in what they call ‘recovery’ which to my view is not enough because there can be actual cure which is beyond recovery. It’s not certain but I suspect there can be more than what has been achieved.

    In the second tape Krista seems to have changed, I think she is no longer in doubt as to what caused her “episodes” and also she has advanced her understanding of the whole process in many ways.
    They are teaching the families (parents) about the inner life as opposed to the repressive forces of the “great culture” which dissuades them from knowing and practicing inner changes.

  • “Maybe we should ignore psychiatry and do what we want. Independent of what psychiatry does or doesn’t do maybe we should advance the fabric of our collective existence.”

    Of course. Psychiatry is proving more lethal to humanity that the Black Death.

    However the problem is that psychiatry will not ignore us. They are the foreteeth of a hungry monster. The best thing to do is to form cells of resistance and hope to keep the flame of knowledge alive in the ongoing and increasing storm of fascist oppression and control. Let us hope they break themselves and civilization can reconstruct – though this may take hundreds of years.
    It will take some patience to wait that long….

  • I had the same reaction as Alex here.This is an abhorrent attitude- the parents want to suffocate or control the child because they might be caused some social embarrassment. It’s also abhorrent to prevent anyone from suffering – that is the snuffing out of life.
    The choice of language here tells a tale of acceptance of repression.

    If families or a family member is to blame for anything, they need to take the blame for whatever it is and change it. There can be no useful insights that come from repression or avoidance.

  • @jonah
    Why does such a system continue to thrive and hold sway, over the lives of millions, in this country (the U.S.)?
    ..
    Because they are backed by a multi billion Drug Pharma Industry which is part of a larger drug industry which is one of the top earners of profit for the power elite (less that .01 percent) who own 96 percent + of the wealth, fund both political parties, have all the politicians in their pocket at every level, own all the major TV , Radio and news media that pipe propaganda into your head 24/7 and own almost everything you are dependent on -roads, cities, power, health services, housed cars etc. and almost everyone works for them as serfs or slaves with no ownership in those enterprises whatsoever and the overriding mission of the elite is to achieve absolute power and control over the US population.

    Its a system of economic fascism approaching near perfect totalitarianism.
    You have already lost lowlander. You don’t even know your enemy so you have no hope of winning or surviving.

    —-

  • @ Jonah

    “I agree, human experience is universal; and, to me, that is exactly what Joseph Campbell was saying: “We are all one.”

    ..

    No , it isn’t saying the same thing. He was drawing a goody two shoes conclusion for you.He was a storyteller and storytellers manipulate their audiences and tell happy endings.

    He didn’t tell you the full truth which is one part of humanity has to kill the other part who have made the wrong choices.
    The full truth is we are all one at birth, but later on in life “We are all Two”.
    You have to make a choice and not to make a choice is a choice.

    One idea is about similarity in functioning, the other is about what we do with it and what we are.

    The full truth is in the “Three Character Classic” which describes how all people are born the same at birth but become different by choosing one of two paths at some significant time in there lives.

  • Ah, RFK, A former leader of the America Power Elite a servant of economic fascists that achieved power through a sham electoral process in which the only parties represented are the parties of the rich.
    That RFK. – the one who took Marlyn Monroe to bed as a perk of his office.

    So when will the walls of oppression and resistance of American totalitarianism come sweeping down?

  • Too many responses about psychiatrists and not enough about how to suffer more and embrace it.
    ..
    I’d like to see more people share about how to promote more suffering. First we must understand that anti-suffering is anti-life. You can’t take away the negative an have only the positive. Some people have only the negative, if you take it away then they have nothing, they are dead and dead-ended.

    Intervention,challenge and confrontation is very important The first good thing my psychotherapist did was to punch me on the shoulder , yes to physically assault me. He then ridiculed me extensively for my reaction when asked what do I feel?
    (I only said my shoulder feels a little sore.}
    The co-therapist across the circle was very warm and friendly and commiserated how how the two punches were very loud sounding ,even to her sitting across the circle. But even she asked me the question I couldn’t answer – how do I feel about it?
    This started to wake me up, to tell me what was wrong.
    They started me. Six months later I put my fist to a pillow and started to become alive.

    Can u imagine a psychiatrist or another agent of the state even considering to do either of these two types of interventions – actually promoting a schizophrenic to be angry?
    No.

    But I try to make my point for various forms of interventionism and living in an interventionist way. Interventionism is never certain, it is always a risk.
    But ordinary living is a risk – when we live on the edge, we are excited, when we live in the protected zone we are bored.

    The neurotic lives in mostly a cold and locked in world. The popular psychiatric attitude is that people have stressors and thus the solution is to avoid them – this guarantees mental illness – – growth processes in any form do the reverse. Popular attitudes are that when people are hurt we are to avoid any mention of it or discussion about it or even worse where it is inappropriate to pour loads of life-smothering sympathy on it.
    ..
    Popular attitudes do not distinguish between negative criticism meant to destroy and critical analysis meant to build up. For many people the inability to distinguish between the two (because of their background) puts a “cork in the bottle” – the healing elixir of life cannot flow out.

  • @Jonah
    Sorry Jonah, IMO, You are one of the infected, you have been compromised. You have been propagandized to support your own oppression and worse not even see it. This is an indoctrinated mental illness or in fact is the source is the source of much mental illness.
    If I’m arguing with you , I’m arguing with the system that created you and the system that you have been indoctrinated to protect. Your arguments are not your own arguments they are from your handlers and you have been indoctrinated to argue , to be a doberman of the system, to identify with it and protect it. Compliance has been achieved in you.
    This is the propaganda that has been extended into the population through social indoctrination of all kinds . I find these arguments tedious and repetitive. Always the same over and over again cutting off the ever recursive the tentacles of a monster..
    .

    North America is under totalitarianism. You don’t need a dictionary to figure it out, you just have to be wide wake. Neither you nor a community representing your interests own anything significant that you have – least of all your mind. Oh yeah – some people can hollow out small domains of escape with in the oppression, for now anyway.

    I absolute do not believe that all those who fought for individual freedom have been weeded out and killed off.

    You see? You are defending against things I haven’t said because you haven’t considered these concepts openly and objectively.


    “Simply, I believe civilization is alive; and, though isn’t well, it’s well worth saving…”

    Yeah , well you can’t even save yourself and story after story here shows that people can neither save themselves from themselves from the system (civilization ) that oppresses them.
    You can’t even separate your survival from the the survival of the fascists who own you.And you make it all one ( a concept which which was indoctrinated), it’s not all one – replace the world civilization with “system” – you mistakenly think it’s the only system that exists, that can exist and you want to save it all as a unit thus saving your oppressors.

    ” Joseph Campbell once said: “Survival is the second law of life. The first is that we are all one.”

    These and the other things are the general ugly thing I object to. The use of “lovey dovey attitudes” which actually promote and indoctrinate fascism and oppression – it’s nothing to do with love.
    In this fascist indoctrination -you learn to feel guilty about protecting yourself from oppressors – you didn’t first learn it from Campbell you probably were indoctrinated with anti-survival attitudes and to surrender to the “system” in Kindergarten.
    ..
    We are not all one, I am not one of “you” for sure, I do not represent the interests of my oppressors and reject them and all their agents and sockpuppets. and I am not one of your “them”, I am one of “us” the free, I have freed myself.

    “A collective commitment to the well-being of each and every member of society.”
    It’s good that you should understand what you do not have.

    I don’t attempt to define things. I attempt to explain things I know to be true form my experience. You can’t learn these things by arguing about them at this level – this is the level of consequence or effect so this is another useless conversation.

    I, myself, don’t ever claim to know what “mental illness” is, because everyone uses that term in his/her own way.

    Then perhaps you need to suffer more til you can say or know something definitive. Human experience is universal – that is First Law – that’s something psychiatrists try to deny by refusing to understand that something like for instance , schizophrenia , is just a dysfunction of normal psychology and by looking at normal psychological processes they can usually find a cure.

    Szaz is mostly useless in that most people use him to evade responsibility and avoid success and self-change.

    So the cure for the infected is to learn self-change and adherence to growth principles which include learning to accept suffering. When you become cured, the walkers will smell you and try to tear you to pieces. The cure can’t be achieved in arguing against a propaganda system.
    Genuine psychotherapy is actually revolutionary which accounts for it’s suppression by the fascist system we live in. It creates people that are self-protective and will challenge oppression. If people want a healthier society they have to advocate for the acceptance of true growth processes and the elimination of the anti-growth processes in popular culture. This is actually a revolutionary act agaisnt a totalitarian system

  • I am aware that I’m indoctrinated, but the Dutch culture is *very* strong in that. I feel drugged. Submission is communicated on so many levels. In this country the basic premise is “trust the government, it takes good care of you.” I think people know me as the guy who has a big mouth – who criticizes everything – without knowing how to escape.

    You have no idea how repressive this country is, and neither do the people who live here.

    What can I do?

    @Xen
    I forgot to mention this one thing. If you complain abut the social system and say you don’t know how to solve it, it means your identity has been compromised, you have been co-opted in some way to protect the very system that oppresses you. Your aggression has been cut off at the knees.

    Also let us compare the statements you make above with all of the sympathetic and wimpy statements you make about your oppressors. It doesn’t compute.

    You see, if people can see, understand the social problems they have, that is 90 percent , the solutions are obvious. If people saw the truth there would be a revolution in one hour and in one day all the regimes would fall.
    But they don’t. Submission and compliance is indoctrinated in the masses. You want to change a part but cannot touch the root and burn down the tree.
    Learn to fight – put a little hate in your heart. it couldn’t hurt.

  • @ BeyondLabeling a.k.a. Jonah on January 19, 2014 at 1:51 pm

    It’s possible I got you wrong, so I will give you and extended answer.
    ——————-
    I repeat and extend my answer:

    “It is already crystal clear, you just have to accept it. The psycho-zombie Apocalypse has already happened.”

    My analogy stands. If you are asking who are the infected, you are probably the infected and don’t realize it, in which case you need deprogramming.
    Like in the “Walking Dead”, everyone is infected. The reason .01 percent fascists rule is that they have the willing compliance of a thoroughly indoctrinated slave class. One does not exist without the other. You can say this compliant slave class has been culturally cultivated or even genetically cultivated over generations and all those who fought for individual freedom have been weeded out and killed off.
    If you try to fight for freedom the dobermans that will tear you to pieces will be the “innocent victims” of the fascist ruling class.
    ..
    Everyone has had their brains compromised , they want to fight for freedom just so long as it doesn’t oppose the fascists that rule them – they have been crippled by fascist-compliant ideology since childhood.
    The larger picture is where do the psychiatrists and the dopey-compliant-dopers that believe them come from? They are all the extensions or products of fascist indoctrination and fascist ideology – They all “believe” in their system – like the ancient Egyptians when their fascist oppressors die they will weep and wail and bury themselves with them.

    Psychiatry generally does not create mental illness – it aggravates it, and prevents it’s cure. Mental illness on the whole comes from oppression for the top down, the rejection of personal growth processes, personal self-protection in favour of compliance to fascism and adherence to ideologies and behaviors that reject the defense and self-protection of the individual.


    Mental illness is the primarily the distribution of repression and repressive social processes, distributed from the top down into the population in the form of interactive repressive social process which become internalized in individuals manifested as personal dysfunction.

    I would think that most people like myself who have gone through madness have become de-socialized and free from their indoctrinated illusions. I would hope so, else it would be a terrible waste of the madness. This is why the authorities and “normal” people (“walkers”) hate and fear survivors so much- especially the ones that have successfully passed through.

    The small group of survivors will have to do what they have to do to survive. You have some hard choices ahead – just don’t let them bite you.

    Civilization is already dead. I am neither nihilist nor advocating standing “idly by”. I am a survivalist. First Law of Survival is do not follow the zombies into the killing field no matter who they are. I disassociate from my personal self from anyone who is following a path of self-destruction, I will not let anyone pull me down.

    If you got the anti-virus for them, by all means save them, but otherwise, don’t go out there, they will tear you to pieces. If they all should be purged in a mass destruction due to the inherent contradictions of Fascism destroying itself, then:
    “Gee, What a pity – pass the gravy.”
    ..
    They die, the race is purged, survivalists of all kinds are free. I am free.
    OK , yeah a real tragedy but….
    Deal! Free at last, Oh Free at last!

  • @ BeyondLabeling a.k.a. Jonah on January 19, 2014 at 1:51 pm

    It is already crystal clear, you just have to accept it. The psycho-zombie Apocalypse has already happened. The small group of survivors will have to do what they have to do to survive. You have some hard choices ahead – just don’t let them bite you.

    The “asking a question” subterfuge to make angry attacks is a very old tired ploy.

    Please don’t use my name when you want to post an opinion. Stand on your on two feet and get off my coattails.

  • @BeyondLabeling a.k.a. Jonah on January 19, 2014 at 1:51 pm:

    They said, “You have a blue guitar,
    You do not play things as they are.”

    The man replied, “Things as they are
    Are changed upon the blue guitar.”

  • Yeah but that’s not the free world, bio-psychiatry is dead in the free world where it counts. Maybe the infected zombies will cannibalize themselves,self destruct, die out and we will survive.
    Bio-psychiatry has no evolutionary value – it is the death of evolution – it turns humans into flat-lined slugs – only the resilient can survive life.
    ..
    Unfortunately like the Black Death it will take it’s toll on humanity but I guess like the Black Death it will purify the gene pool and eliminate those not fit to evolve into the next form of homo sapiens sapiens excellentus.

  • “It is time that we get over ourselves and appreciate that a full existence as humans is fleeting and full of pain, suffering . . . and beauty.”

    Yes there is far too much talk here of psychiatrists. The people here give them undue attention. They are lopheads, the human part has been lopped off, you will find more intelligence in a parade of oysters following a walrus.

    I remember over 40 years ago, when I was in the hospital 14 floors up pressing the elevator button.

    I became terrified that I would fall through the floor and go plunging all the way down to my death. The floor had become insubstantial like a cloud and I would fall through.
    And falling, falling, I would become smashed at the bottom, bones broken in a hundred places speared by the re-bars and I would watch my own eyeballs pop out and go rolling in the thick and spurting blood.
    I tried not to think but my mind betrayed me over and over and would not let go of the reality of my doom.
    And so, I fell.
    And flailed and fell.

    So join hands with me in space and time as we go falling in the void, there is enough fear to go around it will be endless and ever drenching.
    We will have good crunch.
    ..
    So , in the transition to the third Bardo, the aspirants go into the wilderness and fast for ten days then sit at night by the open fire and chilly night. They can no longer tell if the wolves that rip them apart and chew at their bones are real or not.
    The psychotic shatters the fundamental illusion of physical reality.
    And it is an illusion, I’m sorry folks , there is no reality. Oh, it’s there, but then again there isn’t.

    It’s a valuable experiential lesson from suffering. It’s a bonus.Don’t waste it, it will give you power especially over those who live and have only lived in flatland. That is why they fear you , you know another world, an inner world, that terrifies them and that they cannot understand.


    So two monks met a psychiatrist at a riverbank and the shrink said “Hello’ , As they walked on , one day later , one monk said
    “I wonder what he meant by that?”
    To which the other monk said “I left the psychiatrist at the riverbank, why are you still carrying him?”

  • “I think you are making sweeping generalizations about psychiatrists and it remains to be seen whether or not psychiatry can reshape itself to the new paradigm of care people are demanding in ever greater numbers. I say, give it a chance.”

    Very good Pharma Prop especially the stuff how you co-opt the survivor movement.

    I day use a broom on the system and sweep it into the dustbin, and if that doesn’t work use the broom handle.

  • “Tossing research out the window is a very naive approach, considering how the world works, unless one is suggesting that we don’t need government services anymore to support individuals going through extreme emotional and mental challenges.
    – a pharma’s Self Appointed Propagandist”

    If you stop tossing experience out the window you would find the “research” has already been done by successful survivors.
    It’s so absurd that they are spending money on “research” to find chemical imbalances on the head of a pin but do not spend a single dollar on many forms of psychotherapy which have all demonstrated the ability to facilitate many kinds of cure.

    The Government services you mention currently amount to a successful mass lobotomization and thus mass murder program.

    Legislate to take one tenth of the profit from the drug industry and funnel it into social interventions and the mental illness will start to have a 90 percent cure rate instead of a 99 percent lobotomization rate.

  • A related controversy was on last night CBC Fifth Estate

    http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/episodes/2012-2013/the-man-who-hears-voices

    “Jeffrey Arenburg was found not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder for the death of Ottawa TV sportscaster Brian Smith in 1995. He told his story for the first time to the fifth estate host Bob McKeown.”

    The issue is forced medication of this person , a murderer.

    Very important issue!

  • “I’m sure that any of us escaped from psychiatry could make a workable plan for peer rescue during a crisis ,some of us would even volunteer.”

    I don’t think so. Just cause you might empathize with their experience doesn’t mean you are going to “strike up a conversation”, or even likely too. More than likely you’d be getting knifed or getting someone else killed while fumbling for your stun gun after you found out that “resistance is futile, pitiful earthling!”

    Leave it to professionals – advocate trained intervention teams and not killing squads but don’t fool yourself that you can do it – there is more than psychology involved in this – you need people with years of experience in physical altercations.
    It’s just police work – good or bad – nothing else – it has to happen – been going on for centuries. The real need for help is elsewhere in the timeline.

  • “My mind has been to harrowing places, where loneliness, fear, and the bewildering intensity of it all brought me to my knees. Since then, on both voluntary and paid bases I’ve sat with people in the midst of comparable experiences,

    ..
    But I have to admit that over the past few months my need for self-preservation required me to avoid these types of interactions.”

    It’s a little unclear…. what happened?
    ..
    I’ve been in the worst possible, and am now on the other side , I have a foot in both worlds.

    People don’t suffer enough is the problem. Some people have nothing but their suffering and yet the shrinks want to cheat them of that.
    They want to make an ocean of spotless minds in a spotless world bathed in the eternal and vapid sunshine of chemical suppressants. An end to evolution.

  • “Talk to someone on the street, ask them what causes depression, most everyone will say low serotonin.”

    Really? So that’s what psychiatry did with all it’s propaganda power.

    Things have changed – when I was a kid people got depressed from bad things happening in their life. I guess now you have to shoot up some anti-serotonin to get depressed according to the shrinks.
    ..
    When I was still suffering from a schizophrenic condition , I occasionally got depressed, I remember it a s a very nice protective feeling sort of helped to insulate me and soothe me for a while, once in a while.
    Some people used to say “Have yourself a depression day!” I agree – it’s good for you.

    I really hope people here will begin to understand what “a pro-suffering cultural shift” really means.

  • “make a lot of people just tune out the message.”
    ..
    Don’t weaken in the face of fascism. If they are propel infected with bio-med ideology and getting primary rewards for the use of force then being nice to them won’t change them.

    Let them tune out and drop dead. You don’t need them. We need to dis-empower them not cater to them.
    There is nothing wrong with “all or nothing” – personal transformation requires total commitment and making an all or nothing choice to come alive or to remain dead.
    If a blanket works I’ll use it to smother the pharma agit-prop. They are waging propaganda war backed up by billions of dollars – it needs to be blanketed.

    ===================
    “aren’t we invalidating the voices of consumers and survivors who claimed to have been helped by such approaches possibly bio chemical in nature?”

    Yeah! And it’s great became those voices are invalid. And those voices aren’t even their own voices – they are the propped up puppets of the psych industry. The only voices that are valid are those that have come through to the other side and stand on their own two feet.

    ———————

    ” into practical clinical protocols to help individuals safely withdraw from psychiatric medications.”

    In what dreamworld is that? You want that done, it has to be from successful survivors , it won’t come from the Indu$try of P$ychiatric $Death$ .

  • Oh yeah, wonderful “relief” –
    For who? the observer who can’t take it. Without ones’ symptoms one has not life. Usually the afflicted love their symptoms a lot more than the outside “altrusit” can understand.
    ..o

    Te use of psych-meds produces lobotomies pure and simple,
    It’s not that psych meds are dead but psych meds are death.
    True they might be useful as a temporary bring down but permanent use is permanent death.
    ..

    “potentially promising avenues of research”
    Ha! You are humorous. The lonesome cry of the “Sickeninious Ignoramus” bird, the bird that feasts on the leavenings of humans in the mental health industry.
    comm.

    Nobody needs research. We already know everything we need to know. We just need to practice tried and true methods of wellness and cure. If you don’t know what to do then ask a successful survivor – they will smarten you up.

  • “but it just doesn’t make sense that talking to one another, preaching to the choir, is going to make much difference. – TC”

    I don’t see this a s preaching to the choir here. The people here need to learn this ie “a pro-suffering cultural shift”
    There is actually far less support here for this than you might imagine. Far too much they try to drown and murder life and love with sympathy and support. I am so sick of seeing those sentiments misused as instruments of control -It’s Bio-psych ideology without the meds.

    People have been corrupted and co-opted at a basic level without realizing it, They need to change the goalposts as this essay suggests.

  • No the police are better at it. They do need the tazers and the guns. When the chips are down , an amateur will do worse than a trained professional.
    ..
    Just some are police units are treating all calls as criminal , even they have an intent to punish beforehand.
    good at it and some are not. Luck of the draw.
    One question is how does it happen anyway – the cities are human sewers in the first place and the families vacant in their understanding of the inner life because of the deliberate incuilcation of a shallow society- it’s just bound to happen.
    And the polcie as just hauling them off to the lobotomy factory so the thing is like the self defense expert says don’t be there in the first place. Change the civilization, the way you live, the way you work , home school the kids , get out! the whole city way of life is sucking people into the Forbidden Zone. The system is disease by repression from the top down, there is no changing just one simple thing to find a sane civilization.

  • This is what I mean, why the people here are the lucky ones to know the full news. It’s over the heads of the masses because Pharma’s got them in the bag.

    Talked to a store worker the other day at Wal-Marts. His cousin’s schizophrenia – on meds – pity about that brain disease. He never heard of any other paradigm. He was astonished to hear me say there is no such thing as brain diseases. But what am I going to do? Deprogram every T,D,and H at the unit level? For every one you inform, 10,000 more empty vessels are filled with crapola.

    They got them in the bag. The fix is in.

  • Well yes something good came – for all those who heard this story in full it’s social awareness – forearmed is forewarned.

    I wouldn’t take knowing this story in full for granted – as the Pharmaprop gets stronger less and less people will know the even hear anything about these things except the “official” version. And actually even now they don’t the people here are in the minority – reality is defined for the masses by what the TV says.

  • Oh. “Mother Bear” – I think this is the person who has an issue about “blaming the patents”?
    So the “families” don’t critically introspect – this is a danger – I always evaluate on this.

    ===
    Listening to the radio talk — on and on about the symptoms totally irrelevant to my perspective wish they’d get on to the curative process – 30 minutes in and still nothing – very annoying – ok that’s it getting to the real story now – just went off meds slowly but nothing about emotional transformations.
    So the story is she just went off the meds and life was ok as something had changed or energy released (for later yoga and writing) so the psychosis was the pain for the transformation I suppose but not self-examined though i guess it worked – basically says she doesn’t understand what happened. Not much self-examination here transformation maybe because of not wanting to “blame”anyone. Sort of laissez faire. It is more like recovery rather than psychodynamic change.
    They are discussing abuse – A blase or even nice family that simply avoids strong emotions can be just as toxic as abusive families – that’s something that is not well understood.
    Too much lightfoot dancing around here on this subject.

    Overall a very very soft approach far too worried about saving egos for my taste. Just not my style – IMO, the more egos you crack the stronger the results – after all egos were meant to be broken, why waste all that madness?
    To each their own taste, good if it gets some results, so long as it’s not NAMI.

  • I agree with you Jonah. Because first of all I saw clearly the emotional problem in a similar case.
    But also , blaming cannabis is the same thing as blaming bad brain cells – it is blaming the outer instead of changing the inner. OK so not everything is the “inner” but it’s the first place to look for a problem.
    It’s the problem with mass society, everyone falsely learns that everything inside is fixed.
    ..
    There has to be some deep anxiety and fear which makes the person susceptible to cannabis induced psychosis. Getting rid of the cannabis is no fixed solution, in fact next time it could be another stressor
    So when they “recover” and stop having symptoms the relatives want to think it’s “OK now” but it’s not, it’s a false security.
    Pay to psychology what belongs to psychology.

  • Te thing is is the person takes genuine psychotherapy they will probably be changed or get cured and the family won’t like it , in fact they will resist it. Usually the family has to change to learn a new way of being and existing according to growth principles.
    A lot of people when they learn what they have to do and accept and change in themselves they prefer eh other person to remain sick.
    ..

    ” but in family after family, recovery for a person struggling with psychosis means a shift from controlling the other to controlling yourself. It means looking at how you relate to your relative, rather than what’s wrong with them. And it means getting support to make change.”

    Yep that’s it support for change is kind of an oxymoron because promoting change usually means kicking out the support.
    And within the above paradigm the afflicted person can get genuine personality change psychotherapy but the others are outside of that process.
    Some social manipulators such as Dr. Allen which some here are familiar don’t like that, they want to manipulate the family to “remain together ” like they were puppets in some kind of dysfunctional confluence.
    More often than not, the cured will go their own way and with a better standard of health and others will have to learn to follow them or be discarded.

    It’s better that society and families learn a new standard of mental health and take their lumps. The entire civilization needs a new way of being, accommodation is not going to work.

    What will be, will be, Cera sera.

  • “I hope everyone here will read this article for a better understanding of the problem.”

    You recognize one kind of scapegoating propaganda from a fascist system and yet fall for another kind. The system on the main creates it’s own criminals with wealth deprivation and social oppression.

    The elite has all kinds of propaganda to find scapegoats to deflect attention from themselves.

    The structure of our society which most people internalize and perpetuate creates a criminal class and a victim class. The larger victim class is victim to both the criminal class as well as the economic repression of the elite.

  • “If you don’t have anything to hide, you don’t have anything to worry about.”

    In regards to being under the jackboot of economic fascism we do have a lot to worry about.

    “If you don’t have anything to hide, you don’t have anything to worry about.”
    In regards to critical self-inspection if you hide from yourself you end up in the phantom zone.


    Every organization and group outside of ourselves puts their own interests first – always.

    So no guns for the people that probably need them the most for protection against victimization..

  • I’ve seen this before. Probably if it wasn’t marijuana there would have been another stressor that produced the same result. The most likely explanation is some kind of emotional dysfunction in which case growth-oriented psychotherapy could have cured the basic condition that made him susceptible to marijuana.
    When I was a schizophrenic I could not handle marijuana all.
    How did your son deal with anger? Was he able to use it well and deal well with the expression if it from others. This is the usual sensitivity.
    A good healthy focus of anger makes a person very strong and nothing makes the person more susceptible to “symptoms than fear and anxiety about experiencing one’s own anger.
    Bio-med ideology teaches the exact opposite to this paradigm.

    If genuine psychotherapy were funded once again , it would put most of psychiatry out of business. This is why psychiatrists are so adamant about rejecting psychoterepy for the level (4 ?) conditions and refuse to investigate it.They also convinced the insurance companies not to fund psychotherapy.
    But they do fund a version of psychotherapy which they have renamed or dubbed “talk-therapy” and other kinds of such groups which are actually support groups to encourage drug or social control compliance.
    Now if you had searched for help 40 years ago, Lamarc , in my era, you might have even found psychiatrists practicing genuine psychotherapy like I did, and you would have had a much better chance for your son.
    But I read your story – you searched and just found vacant eyed or incompetent psychologists who pointed you to psychiatric hospitals. It’s all about the money. I myself decided not to go into psychotherapy after I was cured because I thought to myself “Who wants to be poor”?

  • Every parent that buys the brain disease baloney and lobotomizes their kid with meds without any other efforts has already killed them anyway.

    As for “other efforts” for I could spend a year writing about that but most shrinks and parents seem to suffer from some kind of blunted aspect in this regard.

    If someone offered me the choice between a lifetime med lobotomy and a bullet I would choose the bullet.

  • If people don’t want to be judged , that is a red flag right there. There is no progress without judging and critical evaluation.
    The first question I always have to parents is how did the child handle being angry and respond to anger in the home in the course of their development. Actually it is a question examining the parents as well.
    Once I got “Oh no! Johny was always a good kid”
    Yeah. Cest va. There it is.
    99 percent is traced to developmental anger problems that are most probably resolvable.
    They have to go the other way, to re-examine the basic values.
    —-

    Being “nice” can be a prohibition agaisnt growth and a blind spot for the parents. Expectation to be “normal” and not negative can be anti-growth.

    Similarly I hear about really happy families where the child suddenly kills themselves because of living in secret depression. Why “secret” is always my question. This other aspect, of depressives which is not in my background experience is something I find interesting and would like to explore.

    “Can we instead have a productive conversation about how we can keep this from happening again?”

    Well if you don’t want propel to critically self-inspect behavior the only other alternatives are leather or chemical straight jackets and to shoot them when they escape their restraints.
    Situation normal for a fascist society.
    Nothing wrong here – move along.

  • The ideology of the Bio-med establishment has a very real effect in steering people away from growth and away from curative processes. I have three living relatives still affected. All done in on meds since childhood – one I am working with very well – the other two I cannot reach and cannot even get near
    Why?
    Because Bio-med propaganda has already taught them that the things I say are the words of the devil – those are the negative things they are to never listen to and avoid. I cannot even get them to engage – they are lost, they are like in a bottle and that bottle is firmly corked by the authoritative environment in which they have been brainwashed.
    The brainwashing of Psychiatric Social control system is very real and very effective.
    When you are in “open Dialogue , just remember that you are in “open dialogue” with calculating, lying, deceitful, ruthless, self-serving, profiteering monsters, And if the people and families have nothing , if they have no experience or knowledge of genuine cures, genuine growth processes , genuine psychotherapy, if they do not strengthen that , they will be steamrolled over by those professionals whose fantastically well paid jobs are to 24/7 steamroll over them.
    ….
    Do not soft soap it or give in to them, it is life versus death – your living death or your actual death versus their good life.
    I have had three family members commit suicide directly because of mus-prescribed psych drugs, one was very close and one ..oh yes.. one was a psychiatrist …he didn’t believe in “psychology” thought it was all BS and he self-medicated his simple neurotic problems to make them insolvable.
    ….
    Hoist by his own petard. The natural contradictions of modern psychiatry destroys itself.

    Keep your bowels open and your powder dry. Watch out for their dirty tricks, and don’t let them pull a fast one.

  • “I obviously believe that open dialogue therapy and reflecting process work have much to recommend them. – MO”

    Huh? What the heck are you talking about? Open dialogue is not a psychotherapy!!! That’s like saying a science fiction convention is psychotherapy. You need psychotherapists to have psychotherapy – it’s a focused profession and personality change psychotherapy is in total conflict the mainstream psychiatry , the recovery model and the entire system of governmental mental health systems.
    ..
    Your Open Dialogue may be useful for social reform and to provide respite and rest for those in crisis but it is not psychotherapy for any individual – though the result could be for those multiple ideologies and forces to decided to fund some psychotherapists and get the patients to effective genuine psychotherapists where the patients can do concentrated work on themselves without being undermined by profiteering control fascists. .
    That’s beyond apples and oranges, you are confusing two totally different processes. You don’t seem to have the foggiest what psychotherapy actually is.

    The question I would have had before I found out this ludicrous idea is: Were there any genuine psychotherapists over there in Finland and who is or will be funding them? And the same goes for America The question is how to get some of that 80 billion dollars a year from selling poison channeled in to genuine psychotherapy that actually has been proven to cure people.

    You have obviously been “disingenuously “agreeing” and “disagreeing” or humouring my statements (as well as those from the other people) which you do not seem to understand at all.

    I don’t rely on theories, I don’t need to see research, and I don’t have wishful thinking, I have experience. I know what works – there may be other things that work that I don’t know about and for that I am open, but I definitely do know what would work for those similar to myself. and that is the majority not the minority and not a handful such as currently exists. I have had over 500-800 hours of successful group experience in which i absorbed and learned to practice the mechanisms of growth processes. I can easily identify another person’s “work points” in normal conversation. Those are things that I know they can work on to create self-conversion. I have not failed to identify “work points” in any of the multitude of labelled incurables I have met, interviewed and known and yet they are not working on those attributes and are not being motivated to work and are in fact being discouraged and guided away form working on themselves in any manner whatsoever.

    ..
    I was functionally cured over 35 years of ago of schizophrenia a by a psychotherapy that was at the forefront of a growth trend that no longer exists. The founder is dead and the rest dispersed. The movement was defunded, erased and propagandized out of existence by a multiple billion dollar industry.

    You say you don’t believe in bio-med psychiatry but in fact you did not reveal your non-biomed model for cure and personality transformation. You could in fact have a no-biomed model following the same ideology of control that the bio-med model follows. I have a precise explicable model based on my experience – what is yours?

    “Larmac’s s son died because she could not find a genuine or competent psychotherapist in the whole of So Calif. It’s the typical story I get from many sources , and I get the whole story, the whole fruitless search for genuine help which I know can exist and doesn’t exist, and how they are funneled into the Bi-med death system – the few psychotherapies that are out there , cost 200-300 and hour, they are not funded by insurance or government and from every description I have gotten from them they do not follow the simple principles I just outlined to you and are thus a waste of time and money.
    … …
    So wheres’ the beef? – please post the registry of genuine psychotherapists which you say you believe in and “agree’ with me on what constitutes the elements of effective psychotherapy. I don’t have one name I can give despite eight years of searching since I returned to look that the mental health community.

    I have dozens of people privately messaging me, asking me where they can find the kind of psychotherapy that cured me and all I can say is it doesn’t exist anymore, anywhere in the world that I can find.

    I have been , looking and examining and not finding anyone or any organization. All the ones I’ve examined are fake, anti-therapeutic (designed to keep people sick) or ineffective or incompetent all because they do not follow the principles that I outlined.

    But you say you “agree” with those principles so where is the beef? Where is the reality you base those “agreements” on? Where are the people that practice those principles because if they are practicing that then I know they are curing people.
    There just might be such practices available but they are not advertising themselves well and they are not available to the mainstream and desperate mothers cannot find them. I have had dozen of private inquires from desperate mothers exactly like the one here and I can’t refer them to any one name.
    ..
    So if you have the beef , please post me the names and addresses and phone numbers of the organizations and people.
    ..
    Right now the Government is funding psychotherapy groups and social groups quasi-like psychotherapy at hospitals and mental health centers for all their consumers and they practice anti-therapy, happy face Fascism, (they discourage people from being “negative” and sharing negative experiences and negative feelings, the make them try to project and live up to a fake image of themselves, hiding their real selves, and encourage them to stay the same with sympathy and support and have the simple minded dedication to keep the participants on their meds. (This idea is even practiced with the med motivation – in that case it is meant to keep the peoepl functioning “as is” under the control of ideologies which service the plans of social controllers and social planners.
    And all of these people converted by Bio-med ideologies in “open dialogue ” will promote their fascist and controlling agendas and anyone being subjected to that is not receiving “psychotherapy”.

    As for the bio-med controllers they found out that if they just gave meds , people went off them so they needed a social platform and an ideology of fake health to help them stay on. Any fascist involved in any growth process will act to undermine that process and in any process where a psychotherapist is facilitating change there can only be one focus and one leadership because they are already battling the resistance of the patient.
    .
    Genuine Psychotherapy can live again and the cures can start generating again – the money and energy had to flow back into it. So that’s what they need to be doing in Finland getting the genuine psychotherapists back and in private and away from the fascist control exploiters.

    ….
    Because as you know what all doctors tend to say:

    Do you want a second opinion?
    My second opinion is the same as my first.

    And those are the opinions financed by 1/2 a mil to one mil a year salaries , dedicated time to create propaganda and backed by an ruling class of economic fascists.

  • Looks like things were under control until a senior officer came and basically decided to murder the teen. The teen was on the ground and stunned when the officer decided to finish him off.

    =============

    “Three different police departments’ officers arrived at the scene. The first two were able to restrain Vidal and calm him down, according to Vidal’s father. But then a third entered

    He says the third officer tased Vidal, knocking the 90-pound teenager to the ground. The officer then allegedly stepped forward with a firearm and said, “we don’t have time for this,” before shooting the teen dead. “

  • I think this is current news – this one looks like deliberate murder by the senior police officer.

    What’s the solution? Perhaps a complete change of life for affected families
    ie move to a safe zone. A Schizophrenic city? Stop trying to live like all the other people around you – you don’t fit in, your family doesn’t fit in, develop a protective system a protective place to live – quit your job , home school your kids, move to the the country, start a commune, become a survivalist. It’s never just one thing, people are locked into a system and that system is fascist and oppressive from the top down with incredible power – they own you and everything about you – there is no cure for fascism – if you can’t kill it, escape it – lock the gates give up trying to win in that system – sacrifice
    think about it.
    think about breaking the mold, break from the system instead of letting it break you

    police kill schizophrenic teen

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owl6ZEZK770

  • “In terms of medication practices, Open Dialogue is the only way of working in the developed world that has used neuroleptics according to a discontinuation/tapering strategy and is consistent with the best research we have.”

    That’s ridiculous. All those who have been cured of serious mental health problems including those who have taken meds and discontinued or tapered off have been totally ignored by all medical establishments.How would you even know? As soon as the patients stopped taking meds – they were no longer in the system and no doubt the files shredded eventually (as mine probably were). More to the point Psychiatry and Government Health services have never been interested in curing or the cured.
    ..
    Anyone, anywhere taking real psychotherapy (or some other social interventionist involvement such as meditation etc) can perhaps make progress, taper off and be cured.

    More research is not needed, what is needed is more practice of real psychotherapy and cutting the power of forced medication.
    The problem is that psychotherapy was murdered around 1980 and needs to be rediscovered. I see little evidence anyone is practicing psychotherapy in the world today and without that you have nothing.

    The Biomed model replaced psychotherapy with “Talk Therapy” which is anti-therapy as it’s goals are completely opposite to the goals of psychotherapy and problem resolution. Today most people are practicing anti-therapy without realizing it because they have been co-opted by Bio-meds fake anti-growth goals. And of course they are not achieving any results.
    Just using the word “recovery is using the bio-med model. People who resolve mental and emotional issues for the overwhelming majority do not go back to any previous sate they re-integrate not recover.
    If anyone must use this word, they must say how they define it as different from the Bio-Med paradigm and even trying that way is very ineffective.
    If you are serious about rejecting the bio-med model then you must reject the terminology which by using it captures you in it’s paradigm.

    “Actual therapy has to do with hearing someone’s story”

    More like real therapy has to do with facilitating a person to work on themselves through confrontational and interventionist techniques.

    This is the thing, I keep looking for and never see, Bio-med anti-therapy encourages dysfunction and dependence on meds or other social controls. So it uses sympathy, support, advice giving, happy face fascism, etc. etc. The therapists refuse to get emotionally involved (in a magus-like way) which is absolutely needed, refuse to encourage the expression and development of negative emotions and spend endless hours of aimless “talk” without any idea of self work.
    etc etc
    Just read Jan Wong’s account of her psychoanalysis in “Out of the Blue” for an idea of futility of aimless talk without directed work. They kept her on meds for years hopping from to another while she looked for one that “worked” instead of herself doing the work.
    The conclusion – I think she adapted , she didn’t change. And all that toll on a person’s life , to get nowhere is the idea of “recovery”. Her book is a good example of the failure of this contemporary idea.

  • I used to see a humorous short video on lobotomy – everyone in the neighborhood getting a lobotomy.
    Anyone know what the name of the short is – maybe there is a copy on youtube?

    If you haven’t seen it it is a great sarcastic satire. The lobotomy truck comes round the neighborhood like an ice-cream truck and there is a happy “lobotomy song”

  • Now Jimi Hendrix cured himself of introjection by going “Freak”:
    Listen to his song:
    If six was nine, he don’t care. He really don’t.
    ..

    If the sun refused to shine,
    I don’t mind, I don’t mind.

    If the mountains fell in the sea,
    Let it be, it ain’t me.
    Got my own world to live through
    And I ain’t gonna copy you.

    Now, if 6 was 9,
    I don’t mind, I don’t mind.
    If all the hippies cut off their hair,
    I don’t care, I don’t care.
    Did, ‘cos I got my own world to live through
    And I ain’t gonna copy you.

    White-collar conservatives flashing down the street
    Pointing their plastic finger at me.
    They’re hoping soon my kind will drop and die,
    But I’m gonna wave my freak flag high . . . HIGH!
    ……

    Falling mountains just don’t fall on me
    Point on mister Businessman,
    You can’t dress like me.
    Nobody know what I’m talking about
    I’ve got my own life to live
    I’m the one that’s gonna have to die
    when it’s time for me to die
    So let me live my life the way I want to.

  • Ah, OK here we go – I remember 3 but that is my memory from my ghost personality when I was Schizophrenic I tired to read ‘that’ book.- couldn’t concentrate but I did understand some concepts for later use – didn’t save me form psychosis but it was helpful after.

    Again – Here we go:
    “Introjection, Projection, Confluence and Retroflection.”

    http://zencaroline.blogspot.ca/2009/07/gestalt-processes-explained.html

    Very good explanation here.

  • “You have no idea how repressive this country is, and neither do the people who live here.

    What can I do? – Xen”

    I lived in Communist China for 12 years, I have studied repression up front. Now I can understand repressive forces much more clearly in the West.

    OK, Since you asked:
    ——————
    According to Gestalt Therapy practice and theory you are suffering from introspection – force fed concepts without being able to digest them. The cure is to vomit them out and re-digest what is palatable on your own time. Pity, I guess you did not have a madness successful enough.
    Well if you don’t want to go mad again, I would suggest to learn to say no, start off with small things. The test of freedom is if you can say “no”.

    When the light turns green don’t walk across immediately, hang back and let everyone else start – let the others get killed by the speeding cars first , then cross.

    literally and figuratively.

    use cash! 😉
    ..
    Practice contrarianism, even be like the Sioux “contrary” – literally walk backwards.
    .
    Develop Oppositional Defiant Disorder but don’t get medicated.

    ….
    Maybe throw some spectacular hissy fits in some non-threatening situations , let yourself go, vomit it it all out – then observe…
    —————
    Don’t worry , you can’t win. Once you accept that you can enjoy the fight.

    Giving up wanting, do without what you don’t need whatever or whoever it is, you only need yourself.

    Intelligence and insight has little to do with escaping indoctrination – it is simply luck of circumstance that wakes some people up – create the circumstance.
    ..
    You can go live in another country for a few years and stay away from the expatriate community. Then you can see your own culture in a new more universal light.
    If you can’t do that find a way to do a walkabout or a vision quest in your own country or do meditation for the purpose of transcending yourself.
    ..
    You see, that’s just a start from a few minutes thinking, just think some more, –
    You can put your elbow to your ear if you want.
    You can do it if you really want , then you can make the world a better place for you, for me, and the whole human race.

  • “I hope you will find a way to live in peace with the inner agent that may have made the same choices as they have, Xen”

    So,I think that is why you identify with them. You make the same choices they do.
    I don’t – I can say with absolute certainty, so I already live in peace and nothing disturbs it.
    —————–
    ” Two days ago a “chief personnel officer” of an Amsterdam mental health care institution was murdered in the street. I would suspect an ex-client to do something like that. If the people in the system are our enemy, why not kill them? Let’s go and kill the CEOs of all the multinationals, that will teach them..”

    Big deal, the guy got his Karma, no sympathy. But unfortunately individual acts like that will just make those institutions more repressive as they institute more security.

    Not teach them, eliminate them. This is the whole story of human history of which you seem to be unaware- the struggle of democracy versus despots . That is the only choice with despots and tyrants – eliminate them and replace them with democracy.

    But in order to prevent new despots from taking over it needs to be done with civilized law, group democratic agreement to dis-empower them, arrest them, them legally put the on trial and totally replace the old ruling class.
    ..
    But that is not going to happen as they engineer consent by having control of the propaganda system and social engineering.
    You are a prime example of this – you have been inculcated with attitudes to make you compliant, submissive and non-rebellious, you have all the good qualifications of a socially and genetically engineered slave and servant to the system. And you are not aware of how it works – that’s the genius of the propaganda system which is done through the schools, your parents. your peers and the mass media – all extensions of power from the ruling class.
    ..
    Incidentally, one of the benefits of passing through madness is to be deprogrammed from all of that. eg The adolescent goes mad but is also furious with their parents and society – this creates a huge conflict. The adolescent through madness is deprogrammed from all of the inducted illusions of the society around them – so they express madness within a mad system.
    Quite to be expected.
    ——
    “Much more would be gained if such a CEO would wake up and realize “WTF have I been doing?”
    Right? – Xen”

    No, that would be the same thing – if they did that they would immediately disband their power base and kill themselves in their agony of conscience. But all the Hitlers, Maos Stalins and CEO’s and Bio-Med psychiatrists have yet to do this service to humanity. 😉
    ….
    You don’t know the outside world, you live in a world of your inner struggle and identity confusion. Just vomit out all that stuff and maybe you can think more clearly. Maybe the solution is to learn hate and anger rather than resist it.Then you can become neutral.

    It’s impersonal to me dealing with oppressors I neither hate them nor bleed for them.

    ——
    “Let’s go”
    There is no “we”, the masses have no mind of their own, not yet any so until they do exclude me out of your “we”.

  • “And, I do agree with the commenter preceding me (skybluesight), to the extent…”

    Ah… I don’t quite know what that means, though I will accept it.
    However but no one should agree with me unless they can understand what Bio-Psychiatry Ideology is. It is more than just the dominant use of psychiatric drugs. It’s hidden ideas and unexamined or unchallenged assumptions which are in fact anti-growth and seem to have been indoctrinated into mass culture.
    ..
    Like for instance , here is a phrase from that ideology:

    “and discontinuing the medication when they startfeeling better

    What that heck does that even mean? (It usually has been bio-med code newspeak for symptom reduction rather than personality growth). It’s insulting to anyone who makes efforts and makes genuine progress. Change is not something that “just happens” as a result of controlling treatment as in controlling with drug therapy or manipulative “psychotherapist” it’s something as the results of efforts.

    After and even during my cure I could feel anger, sadness and pain and express them much “better” I have a better ability to feel and accept emotions than most ordinary people so yes, I do “feel better” than them.

    My life in society got worse and more miserable post cure – the worst it has ever been as I no longer fit in the mental health system nor the social system. It took years to create a new social identity.
    There was no way to tell who I was from looking at my external trappings.
    ..
    Inside my head was different,inside my head was ecstasy from experiencing being alive and I hollowed out in the world, explorations to enjoy while under the blanket of social oppression.
    ..
    What is a cured person? -it’s a working personalty – nothing to do with the exterior trappings. You find out by interacting with the person in shared narrative. Ticking the boxes doesn’t tell you this.

    That’s one of the shocks I got post cure when my social situation was still the same – ie who knew I was different and who didn’t – it was an eye opener.

    Mary is right about the “so-called” cures – propping someone up with or without meds with a network of 10-20 people to support them is not a cure – it has nothing to do with it – these are social problems something outside the purview of achieving personality transformation.
    And I dislike that intensely, thee false claims because they discredit me, a genuine cure.
    And it leaves me weeding through a big garbage bag of junk while I am searching for other cured people such as myself.

  • “I like your attitude, but something in me has to die – some kind of tolerance – for me to think that way. – Xen”

    Sorry Xen, I think the idea of an anthropomorphic God is a fantasy. I do respect spirituality though but not calls to “authority” or any such beliefs.

    Yes, you are right some part of you has to die but it is not “tolerance” – it is the protective bandage you have when you have to face reality. Toleration of fascism is not tolerance , it is retreat from self-defense and confrontation. This is probably part of the mass indoctrination which the rulers teach the masses to be complaint and submissive to the system of fascism Tolerance to fascism is not the moral high ground but is submission and inculcates a lack of courage in individuals to resist fascism in all forms. This kind of indoctrination is much assisted by having a population that are somewhat affluent and are slaves to indulgence.
    Perhaps you should experience some kind of death, that would teach you what the stakes are – what is the difference between success and failure.

    I knwo all the situations, it doesn’t matter what the excuses are – everyone has a choice – no matter how painful it is they have a choice. And contrary to what you suggest ,most of them choose not to know the truth because it simply is not convenient.
    In other words their ignorance is based on selfishness and self-aggrandizement.
    The people you feel sorry for and think are like yourself are in fact not like yourself. They will kill you over and over again they will lobotomize you, they will not cry about you and they will not remember your dust.

    I do not care “why”. It doesn’t matter to me, if a person is malevolent or ignorant. Death is death and you must fight against them for survival as ruthlessly as they oppress you.

    I am not after punishment or revenge I simply don’t care about them. Garbage is garbage – what is outside my sphere of ability I don’t care about and I don’t allow myslef to be pulled in to. I cut off my emotional involvement with all those who are in dysfunctional process either personally or socially.

    Do what you want – go ahead and weep for them love bomb them if you feel like it but you are not likely to succeed since you don’t know who you are dealing with, They are not innocently ignorant, they are willfully ignorant. Neither the devil nor the system made them do it, they chose it no matter what – they always had a choice,
    And the last thing is that once they have made this choice – they have changed – you are now dealing with the hardened oppressor.
    ..
    A parallel is like dealing with the afflicted – sympathy and support does not help them, A psychotherapist has to ruthlessly murder the old egos of his patients in interventionist confrontational style. They must be the “Assassins of love.”

    The system dogs are your enemy , keep your bowels open and your power dry and remain vigilant – don’t let them kill you while you are feeling sorry for them – don’t stay your words , don’t hesitate to find their emotional weak spots and strike down their arrogant egos when you can. Give no quarter to their propaganda defense.

    Don’t be tame and tamed. Act respectful, but don’t respect them. Be the best you can be. 😉

    ” This is not malevolent, yet it is insidious. The profession doesn’t do this because it is evil. It does it because it is scared. All attack is a call for help.”

    That’s beyond ludicrous. The human lust for power and control has been shown in everyone form Attila to Stalin to modern psychiatrists.
    History did not die, the nature of humanity has not changed, nor has the strategisms changed – only the weapons have changed. Being a volunteer for the ovens – that’s pathetic – you will win the Darwin Award and will make sure your line is genetically extinct.

  • How wonderful for you.
    But without offering any genuine psychotherapies or other such interventions for the purpose to achieve emotional transformations you are merely stacking the deck for the social control ideology.

    That’s like asking for ambergris in a world where all the whales have been slaughtered.
    But I can understand the difficulty of trying to be a handyman without a toolbox.

  • Yes, and Mary has the same ideology – it is hidden in this statement

    “with people suffering similar, terrifying, symptoms elsewhere,”

    Which is the systems (assumed there because of bad brain cells) are terrifying to the patients who would otherwise be “OK” f it wasn’t for those symptoms oppressing them.

    Nonsense. The patient is a person like everyone else, deep fear and anxiety produce the symptoms. that is what you have to deal with to evoke cure but that would involve understanding the person as an interactive emotional human being not the result of a disease.
    ..
    The Bio-meds always invoke the spectre of “terrifying” whatever as a justification for their inhumanity. I wonder what they are so terrified of? Perhaps a round of psychotherapy could help them resolve this. Most psychotics enjoy their “symptoms” and some to a great extent – the problem is they just don’t enjoy them enough. This is why they are breaking down – they have to break down to re-integrate.
    The Bio-meds interfere with this process instead of facilitate it which is part of healing.

    Yes, cause and effect is wrong and the wrong goal posts as usual.
    In the general society, in the mental health community and (I gather) from most modern “psychotherapy” (now in it’s misused form of “talk-therapy”) the people do not understand positive growth processes. This is encouraged and induced in them by economic and social oppression from the very top which generates ideologies of submission and control.
    They think they can graft a new tree on the branch of an old one.
    Not possible – they are doomed to failure unless they reevaluate their basic axioms and assumptions of what is positive and what is negative. They have almost everything reversed.

  • More complete nonsense. It’s all cloaked in Bio-med ideology whether or not the author realizes it. This ideology is anti-growth and the ideology of control.
    Bio-med ideology is more that just the meds it is an ideology antithetical to the development and use of of human characteristics which for the main are the emotional functions.

    Looks like another Bio-med wolf in “dialogue” sheep’s clothing because so long as the axioms of he Bio-med Model the efforts are used they are doomed to failure and Bio-med success which probably is the agenda..

    “The last thing we wish to do is to give false hope to people who have had great suffering”

    Yeah right, find another excuse to leave people in lobotomized death . No! This is the first thing you want to do, because if for instance you can get a schizophrenic to actually feel hope and be disappointed then you have helped them improve by actually feeling something other than anxiety. Now you can start to help them be resilient.
    Feeling hope and being disappointed increases an appetite for life not increases suffering. As usual the scientists do not understand that emotions are not themselves suffering it is the interference of them that causes suffering as well as the external events.

    ..
    Cure is not assessed by employment stats or symptom reduction. That is bio-med anti-human “recovery”.
    Cure is a change in the emotional functioning. Just that and nothing more and nothing less.
    It seems the clinicians are the ones “terrified of the symptoms. Symptoms are not some bizarre thing there because of brain cells, fear drives the symptoms. Bio Med psychiatry lobotomizes the fear, like saving the person by shooting them the head. Of course meds could be used judiciously along with growth psychotherapy not “talk psychotherapy” but so long as goals hidden in the above text are still in play there can be no progress.
    Personality reconstruction involves more pain not less. Beign weller than well means being able to have more and deeper negative emotions like anger and sadness and depression as well as positive and being more resilient in using them through acceptance.
    The Bio-med approach in contrast to this is to try to achieve emotional sterility. It is anti-evolutionary.

    When people don’t even know the goal posts they can’t possibly score.

  • And of course the “you might as well say” routine is from Alice in Wonderland.

    ..

    “Everyone tries their best.”
    No they don’t. They deliberately blind themselves.

    ..
    No Xen I don’t have a permissive attitude. “I was only following orders” was not an acceptable defense at Nuremberg. The line between life and death, between lobotomy and actualization is very thin – there is no room for compromise, permissiveness or ignorance.

    The wages of Bio-Meds are death.

    Living death,real death, poverty death – it is all murder.

    Xin Nian Kuai Le

  • Of course! You might just as well say that “I like what I get” is the same thing as “I get what I like”! or even you might just as well say, that “I breathe when I sleep” is the same thing as “I sleep when I breathe”!
    Einstein once said “Please pass the syrup” and someone gave him the vinegar. So sometimes, they can be the same thing.

    ….
    I suppose you might say philosophers let the flies out, psychologists study the effects of flies on philosophers, scientists just kill the damn things and psychiatrists medicate the flies to an eighty percent recovery rate.
    .
    happy new year

  • “The eternal sunshine of the spotless mind.”

    This is wonderful! It’s how to make zombie workers for the gulag – everyone lines up for 30 min of ECT once a week. ECT office is right beside the crematorium.
    ..
    Whistle while you work comrades, we live in forever sunshine! Well that is, those who can remember what whistling is…

  • I totally agree this article is misleading. Simply recovery here is defined as having less symptoms which is achieved by using lobotomizing psych meds.
    This report is pure garage and more Bio-Med Propaganda.
    ..
    A “a substantial degree of recovery” is garbage and useless. Here we go again- shuffling our feet massa..

    I was cured – freed – became independent, self-sufficient, emotionally functional and self-responsible. Anything less is not taking a full inheritance as a human being. This is the goal that can be achieved by many and if these “researchers” haven’t achieved it in any way , they are wasting their time on mythology.

    They need to just roll up their sleeves and get to work the real work of facilitating personality change – when you stop the baloney of trying to help people “recover” ie stop their symptoms and start treating them like human beings that follow the universal laws of emotional functioning it becomes obvious what to do for them.

  • @Xen I don’t know what eddie7 is on about. It sounds as if he is snipping at or about something but it is not clear. Perhaps I’m not in with the in crowd or perhaps he is deliberately vague.
    —–.
    Very insightful social analysis you have written.
    Ha Ha yes the neutrality of the press is the best way they maintain bias. They are indeed as Orwell said “a mass lying machine”.
    I know about the uniformed. I visit a Government Mental Health center with drop in recreational community services. Every single worker there of every rank and function knows nothing else except the Bio-Med Ideology. All those poor people , “consumers” – they are murdering, that could become full human beings and are policed so that it can never happen – they think they are “helping” them.

    But these are the sockpuppets were were indoctrinated never to challenge the system and it’s many illusions. At the top where all the direction comes from are fully aware ruthless selfish and greedy people – in the government, in the elite , in business and the media. They know fully what they are doing. they lie sincerely without guilt or conscience, the lust for power makes them psychopaths.

  • I was cured of schizophrenia over 35 years ago. Since then I have had two high pressure and existing careers.
    If anyone wants to learn to conquer schizophrenia they need to learn from or study the survivors who have fully been on both sides of it.

    “The Dutch GGZ (mental health care) is totally not equipped to deal with the real issues underlying SZ. It does not know how to give therapy or what the possible benefits of a different approach might be.”

    Describes the entire Western world “unhealth care”
    You described it all well. But they all forgot there is an exit,they are not even looking for it.

    Those health officials won’t like the answers either, for the way to health is through a completely opposite ideology from which they and most of society is indoctrinated in.

    Concurrent with Bio-med psychiatry is an ideology of health which is anathema to personal growth. This ideology has now been widely indoctrinated in the population.

  • I don’t quite know quite what you are on about, Eddie7, but garbage is garbage and if this organization is a front for the Bio-Med Industry of Death then people should know about it.
    A bottle of vinegar just may make a good pesticide.
    Syrup is sticky stuff which bogs you down in the well of neurosis – getting out means getting tough.

  • Thanks Xen.

    I have determined that the site is totally co-opted by Bio-Med Psychiatry. I have since seen pages there that refer to Schizophrenia as a “disease” and “research needs to be done about Psychotherapy as there are uncertain results ” etc etc.
    They are playing some kind of funny game pretending to pander to the alternative community but actually the idea is to pervert those ideas and bring the “rebellious ” into the clutches of Bio-Med Ideology and consumerism.
    “Gee, Folks – no choice – take your meds”

    ..
    It should be obvious that people under affliction cannot take the responsibility of leadership in such an organization, although ex-Schizophrenics – survivors and the cured could certainly take leadership So that org has only those being “guided” (actually controlled) by psychiatry. And if those “guided people are using psychotropics then control over them is a slam dunk. I have seen exactly how this works in the Schizophrenic Society of Canada – there is only the pretence of the afflicted running it, they are actually extensions of the puppeteers..
    And if they call the members “consumers” instead of patients or something liek that then they are all the puppy-dogs of psychiatry.
    “Consumers” Indeed!

    So of course the organization is a front for Bio-Med Psychiatry.The only way it could not be is if Survivors who are no longer on meds or who have never been on meds would be in charge of the organization.

    The organization ison my garbage listd

  • Upon further inspection I suspect this Anoiksis Society is either funded or co-opted to a large degree by the Bio-Med Industry in spite of the front page statement of being “completely run” by “consumers”.

    The Schizophrenic Society of Canada is also “completely run by consumers” , however (I infiltrated it and studied it) it was created and is backed by hidden bosses in the Government in complete collusion with the Bio-Med Industry. The administration are basically straw dogs for the real owners.
    I’m seeing a great deal of the same structure in the Dutch organization.

    This accounts for why the description for the new name of Schizophrenia is taken completely from the DSM or from Psychiatria – just reworded here and there.

    I browsed the Dutch Website with a translator.
    Here are some things to note:
    ..
    In the name itself the membership of Anoiksis schizophrenia is equated with chronic psychosis. This is a view of SZ as an incurable disease, there is no understanding that SZ as a condition can be cured. So only those still suffering from SZ can be members? Apparently the paradigm of cure doesn’t exist there.
    * They have “recovery” and “recovery stories” )Bio-med terminology) and as usual no on is cured. The definition of recovery is exactly like the Bio-med description.
    There is no mention of drugs anywhere on the site but plenty of mention of treatment. Everyone must be getting them but shhh don’t talk about it?
    There is no accounting for ownership or executive structure, no one responsible – no accounting for the power structure.

    They claim to be both Positive/Negative towards psychiatry.
    All there associations are with Bio-med organizations. – question is who is in charge and whom is using whom. Psychiatry, the institution adn ideology, is fascist pure and sweet, if any power is given to them they will oppress.

    National Mental Health Platform, the Rehabilitation Centre Knowledge, various government institutions and other patient associations,

    Supposedly a “friendly tame psychiatrist ” is on the ruling committee – but the question is who’s dog is who’s. I have already seen how this works in Canada.

    Then as I browse the various pages I find things like a video in Dutch “A new paradigm: life with a living loss”. which means something like “how to live permanently with (incurable) Schizophrenia.
    ..
    The only way I could see such a society being successfully run is under ether those who have been completely cured of Schizophrenia or those who have facilitated cures. But in fact cure or even an understanding of Schizophrenia as a emotional dysfunction is not on the site.
    If someone could prove to me this organization is not co-opted or running under the ideology of Bio-med Psychiatry, I lay down the challenge.

  • “He only asked asked to accompany and assist, skybluesight. I don’t see how that is a projection. – mjk”

    So the guy walked into a cop shop said he could do their job better than they could , offered as qualifications he was an ex-psychiatric patient and angrily yelled at them -walking out avoided their response.
    He got his name and address logged in their complaint database which they can refer to if there is any future trouble with him.

    ……
    So what is it you don’t see mjk?

  • ” do they really need more psychiatrists” No, more healers, psychologists, real psychotherapists (not the fake bio-med supporting ones) etc.


    Imagine there were no psychiatrists
    It’s easy if you try
    No hell below us
    Above us only sky

    Imagine all the people
    Living for today

    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace

    You, you may say I’m a dreamer
    But I’m not the only one
    I hope someday you will join us
    And the world will be as one

  • Nice anti-review, or anti-propaganda.

    I imagine the “PLOS Guest Blogger” will eat a spoonful of Seroquel on National TV and say
    “MMMM good and if nothing bothers me, it will fix that too.!”

    So through this I hear about this book – Release Date: Sept. 15 2013.

    Lots of negative comments on Amazon I guess an 80 billion dollar a year industry has a few friends.

  • My sister committed suicide from from a sudden prozac withdrawal in the early 1990’s when she decided to try a meditation group instead.
    ..
    No warnings from her psychiatrist about sudden withdrawal who never showed up at the funeral nor was his name on the police reports.

    There were no warnings about this at that time. She had an ordinary neurotic problem , went for help during a difficult divorce and got a death drug and the fake psychotherapy administered by incompetents that goes hand in hand with these drugs. .
    ..
    At that time there was no internet, no survivors information network for years. Warning articles started appearing in magazines only a few years later.

    Interesting article.
    The interesting thing about the system dobermans, the manipulators of consent and compliance, is that they never know that they themselves have been created and manipulated into through the induction of social identity disorders.
    The people at the top just need to pull a few strings and the puppets dance all the way down the pyramid to the bottom.

  • “Rationale

    The above was reason enough for Anoiksis to seek a new official name for what has been called “schizophrenia” until now. The reasoning is as follows:

    – Psychosis: because of the unreality of hallucinations and delusions.

    – Susceptibility: since patients are not necessarily continually psychotic (but it is latent).

    – Syndrome: since this word includes the negative and cognitive symptoms also associated with the disease.

    Negative symptoms are, for example, lack of feelings and energy. Cognitive symptoms are, for example, problems with concentration and memory or a reduced capacity for problem-solving. These symptoms hinder daily and social life and are very persistent.”

    That description doesn’t show much understanding of Schizophrenia, It just does the same as the flat-lined psychiatrists – it describes symptoms without understanding the emotional functioning or the basic emotional dysfunction which drives the symptoms.
    Psychiatrists will just regard this name change idea as patient’s refusal to accept they are ill. Psychiatry has the control of the name – psychiatrists would have to be the ones to want name change.
    People don’t like the name because they have been told schizophrenia is incurable by psychiatry and they tend to believe it as very few people know it is curable.

    Recovery is an inappropriate word to use. Schizophrenia is resolvable by personalty re-integration , a person does not go back to anything he was before as the word “recovery” suggests. Psychiatry has lots of “recovered” schizophrenics – they have most of their symptoms suppressed due to drug lobotomization. To a psychiatrist “recovery” is nothing – it means that they own you – if anyone is genuinely cured or transformed or re-integrated as a person I recommend not to use this word.

  • Sorry I don’t have either beliefs or disbeliefs – if I find I do, I will examine and deconstruct them them with rationality and life experience. I don’t have supernatural beliefs – no use to mention anthropomorphic Gods to me.
    Here, I just render unto human psychology to what human psychology is due.

    So what you are saying is the 4 year old Adam is condemned by some supernatural thing called “evil” and incapable of emotional change and was ordained to be a mass murderer at age 20?
    So that means the 4 year old being just as evil as the 20 year old must be exterminated or incarcerated in maximum security?
    Or eternally punished? Whipped daily?

    This does sound like the psychology of anger and revenge. If we don’t “believe” this theory of evil we can’t burn the four year old at the stake.
    Cheated we are.
    ..
    One can “believe” in evil or use the word evil in a practical human ways – in other ways it’s a usable word related to human behaviour and human choice.

    This is no different that the brain disease theory of mental illnesses, – objectifying human behaviors and consciousness trying to control others through drugs or through punishment – failing to understand human psychology and that all human emotions are fluid an transformative.
    Adam killed his mother in rage and killed the children to punish her or as part of his extended rage. Simply no onee ever interacted with Adam since childhood to help transform and handle his angers. They simply indulged or ignored him. They didn’t try – if they failed the parents would have been obligated to control him or incarcerate him not empower him as they did. They had total control over his environment. Children mirror themselves with their parents and in this case mirrored their failure the failure to address his anger.

    This event is a reflection of attitudes ni the general society which does not accept nor know how to deal with anger – iognore it or medicate it but never accept it, love it and deal with it. The parents and extended society fialure with Adam reflects the general societal failure with themselves in rejecting grow ht processes dealing with anger. It’s their karma come back to bite them in a practical not supernatural way.

  • “considering there were 6 of them didn’t they shoot him in the leg”
    Every police force that I know about has standing orders to shoot to kill in that situation.
    Reason: Google “21 foot rule”
    ..
    I know this is a variation on the 21 foot rule as the officers already have their guns drawn. And there are situations where it doesn’t apply when the suspect is trapped or contained in which going in shooting without extended negotiation is an aggressive act. In such cases it does depend on being there and making a risk assessment.
    If they leave the guy there and just lounge around without guns trained on all possible exits if he decides to attack family or police force outside he can cover maximum 21 feet before anyone can respond draw and fire with unknown results – a garage doesn’t sound like a “contained” environment.

    This is a common situation and the public has asked this question many times before. Many police departments have openly answered it saying they simply do no want to risk the lives of their officers and thus give these standing orders – there is no conspiracy or reason to fear asking this question.

    There is some example video out from Mexico I think, a man armed with knife kills 3 or 4 officers from a group of officers all surrounding him with guns drawn. This is an example of why the shoot to kill, not shoot to disable order is given in these situations.
    ..
    For all six to fire simultaneously at the legs might work but that would require previous training and co-ordination of all six and if this action messes up (such at the target starts running toward the officers) someone gets an ax in the head.
    I’m not sure what the best answer was, there probably was a better one but however else the situation could have been resolved “shoot in the leg” was not not likely to be one of them.

  • Very Good.
    I have been trying to find an appropriate name for the mental illness that people recruited into the field of Psychiatry have:

    You have suggested “Usual Disorder” I have thought of “Commander Data Syndrome” of “Officer Spock” Syndrome” – I’m not yet dissatisfied with any of these names. I think I can add to your description.
    —–
    I have had Prolonged Grief Disorder (PGD)about my sister’s suicide from the applied misuse of Pharma meds for more than 20 years. Fortunately I have not taken any drugs for it.


    Three other members of my extended family committed suicide while on psych meds one of them was a psychiatrist who had denounced psychologists and psychology as garbage. This psychiatrist tried to solve his problems with meds while denouncing all social interventions – he also medicated all three of his kids who were suffering grief from their mother’s suicide.
    “Sic Transit Gloria Psychiatria”

  • “I share your frustration to some extent. It seems to me we are talking about *civil* rights here. Yet, there’s a tendency to get into talk about more nebulous human rights, not to mention all the other irrelevant talk that follows – bashing capitalism, western civilization, etc…. In the meantime, a fellow human being’s freedom lies in the balance.

    So, to repeat AA’s question: What do we do, counselor?

    Duane ”

    Ted is correct – basically nothing for that one person.
    ..
    Except that you can do something for yourself – you have been given a gift and you are throwing it away. You’ve learned unlike many others and unlike the population of the near future that you are living in a fascist despotic state exactly the same as Stalinism or Naziism because power and wealth is centralized in the hands of a chosen few. You have learned the fix is in and justice and the law is owned by the elite.
    ..
    So learn the lesson and stop supporting the system, there can be no reform as long as the system of fascism is not reformed and the wealth and power redistributed back into the population creating a democracy.
    Economic fascists own Big Pharma as well as the Insurance companies (which have no other purpose of existing except to oppress and exploit the population).

    There is no capitalism as the economic fascists own nearly all of the capital. So if someone thinks capitalism is being “bashed” they are under an illusion inculcated by propaganda. Obamacare is opposed by the economic fascists – It is simply amazing how propaganda systems can manipulate masses of people to oppose their own freedom and oppose their own basic interests. How can people free Justina when they cannot even free themselves from their own indoctrinations and cannot even see the nature of the beast that is oppressing them?
    How can people help Justina when they cannot even free themselves from their own propaganda indoctrination? Bio-med Psychiatry is only a small part of the lying propaganda system of the elite. Everything one knows that has been introjected from public education and the MSM needs to be vomited out and then critically reabsorbed.

    And thus here is one of the positive effects of metal illness. Most of the mentally ill have vomited out the anti-human indoctrinations of their culture and on the road to reconstruction they have had to reality test all the basic assumptions that they held.
    One can observe the reality of this phenomenon when one observes parents with offspring who have become “mentally ill”. The child often has their “blinders” erased while the parents are still operating under many illusory and irrational social indoctrinations. This brings and enormous conflict into the family dynamic and the entire society (family, social workers, doctors, agents of the state) tries to make the afflicted person “rational” again by re-indoctrinating them with irrational ideas.


    So there is the cure for fascism and freedom from Bio-med Psychiatry – induce insanity in the population and let them find their way back to sanity without lobotomizing meds.
    lol – a big lol on that.

  • So a Merry Xmas to all the Bio-Med P-docs most of whom are off on their extended holidays in Bali or Cozumel or wherever their enormous salaries take them.
    ..
    I suppose on this Xmas day they would rather be with their patients that they care so much about because those patients suffer so much. I guess because so many of them are so alienated that at this time of year Santa Shrink brings them an extra dose of medication to keep them cool.

    To sentence a person to a living death, to cripple them for life, to get rich off it and feel so proud about it. I think we need a coin a word to describe this psychiatric syndrome that psychiatrists exhibit.

    How about “Shrinkfluenza” – but the “afluenza” guy only killed four people , psychiatrists kill millions – so how about “Grandiose Shrinkfluenza” or “Mass Grandiose Shrinkfluenza” to cover the lot of them as some kind of Group Madness?
    ..
    “And to all a good night” – and a special sympathy for all those unfortunates who have entered the long dark night of the pill from which they will not return.

  • Brain disease theory makes everything so simple for everyone down the line form shrinks to uni students on hire.
    And there is the money or just the regular guaranteed salary and career …ah the good life. They are all on holiday right now at the tie their charges are most alienated – they make sure the non-humans or unhumans? (called so because they are not allowed to have the basic laws of human psychology applied to them )are finished with Xmas two or three weeks early so nothing will interfere with their “Dolce Vita”.
    ..
    I once told a brief synopsis of my narrative to a uni undergrad concluding with “so you can see from my example Schizophrenia is not incurable” and as I was pouring myslef a cuppa I heard her protest “But it is incurable!”.
    ..
    I didn’t contend because I was in the enemy’s stronghold .. tut-tut…head full of straw and all that – sometimes is the best way to survive and gather information.
    .

    So how does a 2nd year uni student have the life experience to know what is possible and what is not or without undergoing a process of confrontative critical self-inspection even understand basic human psychology?
    But they know.
    This is because of authoritative indoctrination – it really works well.
    ..
    And on this topic notice how adamant the Government literature etc is in Canada – “There is NO cure”. …in cancer societies they say they are searching for a cure but no search here – they absolutely “know” – they simply don’t want to find it. Talk about cure to any of those in this pillar of ignorance – the brick wall of the mental unhealthiness industry – the word cure is not even understandable in their minds..

  • Curb your enthusiasm!
    heh
    But really, talk or some small talk doesn’t mean much – commiserations, sympathies, whispered agreement and it all disappears when someone like yourself doesn’t show up for work.
    Did you save any people from chemical lobotomizations? Did you get the afflicted real psychotherapies or real and non destructive places/treatment to get over bad states of mind?
    Maybe something you did translated into he actual – you didn’t say.
    ….

    The wall street movement achieved nothing and psychiatry outrage is nowhere near that level.

    The media is a mass lying machine – you have to own them or control the people that own them…
    Some guy on MIA went to Rome with the RC’s and got very excited having big intellectual discussions, he returned thinking he had achieved something but he was just fobbed off-diverted.

    What matters is power – as you mentioned.
    Here in Alberta the murder of seniors in long term care with psychotropics continues unabated hidden behind a wall of power, more and more children are being lobotomized, from all reports every psychiatrist is a hang-em-high with lobotomizers type.

    Oh and BTW , a lot of doctors here are outsourced from other counties -so they toe the line taking orders from hospitals and the Government executive so they can keep their work visas. The MSM is aggressively promoting the brain disease ideology in prime time TV.

    If anyone knows of any “progress” here in Alberta , let me know. So far I have not found any activism – Zero – except some CCHR Scientologists who are operating out of B.C

  • “and I am merely “pretending” to be part of this “group” (which group are we talking about? Isn’t the ‘group’ here readers of MIA?) – J Dosick”

    “If our movement is to be taken seriously, perhaps we should stay away from simply raging against The System (incredibly flawed as it is)
    -J Dosick”
    ..
    ” I was referring to the overall trend (as I see it), of increasing division within our community J Dosick”
    ———————
    This dishonest technique in argumentation is called “changing the goalposts”. First JD says says certain people should shut up and/or dilute what they say in the best interests of “our” community. then when suddenly when cornered he denies his previous statements saying he is merely a member of the “Group” that merely reads MIA.
    ………..
    Whatever JD’s motivations he advocates repression and attempts various ploys to actualize it. My perception this repression is anti-confrontational. Indoctrinating anti-confrontational attitudes in the population is one of the methods fascists achieve control EG. “Be nice, don’t call us murderers while we murder you”.
    ..
    Indeed if populations are indoctrinated with anti-confrontational attitudes there is no need to police them , they will police themselves.
    ———
    But more to the point anti-confrontational attitudes are anathema to mental health and personal growth. Bio-med Psychiatry does not just administer lobotomizing drugs – they find that the human part of human beings tends to reject them so they have concurrent social programs to teach their patients anti-confrontational attitudes and to avoid negative expression and negative emotions.

    These are done in many ways ranging from informal groups in government run drop in centers to formal “Talk therapy” groups run at hospitals for their permanent out-patient “consumers (Bio-med’s corruption of psychotherapy which is anti-therapy)”.

    These ideologies are so effective that they are actually indoctrinated into the social workers, neo-anti-psychotherapists etc and penetrate deeply into the general population.
    ..
    This whole ideology of which anti-confrontation is a part is destined to produce Mental Unhealthiness under spurious auspice of promoting mental health.

  • “Thank you
    “, for educating me about my own motivations. I have learned that:

    -I am practicing propaganda, rather than simply expressing my opinion;
    -I am dedicated to the repression of other people;
    -I am “destroying” the values of the group (how can this be done?), and I am merely “pretending” to be part of this “group” (which group are we talking about? Isn’t the ‘group’ here readers of MIA?)

    Thank you again for setting me straight!”
    – JD
    ——————————
    ..
    That was content-less post, and sounds like propaganda technique #2.

    ie:

    “2 Use personal attacks to attempt to provoke members of the group into personal counter attack and then hopefully if they go too far you can appeal to a higher power (moderator) to get them silenced.”
    ..

    This is purely personally emotional sarcasm not a rational argument and belies your previous statement of intent for calling for more rationality and less personal emotion.
    ..
    What is the underlying message in such sarcasm? Is it “Gee you are crazy for saying these things” ? So if that is the message your post is a personal attack.
    ..
    I also notice you have failed to address in a calm rational manner any of the counter points I have made to your position. After pretending to call for more rationality you in fact resort to emotional sarcasm as some sort of defensive attack any of the rational arguments made to you that show your apparent insincerity and contradiction.

    I wonder.. Are you yourself victim of that same rage and trauma that you accused others here of being under such duress?

  • “I believe that the psychiatric profession, as a whole, is increasingly on the defensive having been wounded by the survivor/ activist movement, and MIA is a big part of this.”
    ..
    I don’t see that anywhere except on the internet where it doesn’t count. I live in Alberta, Canada and have connections and reports from other provinces. I also am fine tuned to the MSM. I am involved with several government programs at a grassroots level as a neutral observer.
    From directors to social workers to university volunteers all are under the lock thumb of Bio-med psych – not the slightest glimmer of awareness.
    The MSM increases their dose of mind washing.
    The SZ society is run by straw dogs under the hidden direction of executive Government Health officials who are in hobnob collusion with the Pharmaceutical companies – the most powerful industry in Canada.
    After recent legislation changes the Government through official mental health services has instituted new posts and administrative districts to apply the power of Community Treatment Orders (CTO’s) – they are now successfully controlling the non-compliant, the children in schools (new recruits) and co-opted families into teaching programs where they “teach” them about mental health and the bio-med model (also a “snitch” program).
    ..
    The MSM is truly vomit worthy in their co-option with the Bio-med industry…
    Sorry no reform here.

    Things have gotten worse and are set up to get worse.

    If I start some kind of public awareness-information distribution society here , I will be the first one and be the only member. I though I would join one but it appears I have to start one.

    —–
    As for the people who want it all nice and sweet, that doesn’t work in social reform, personal growth or personality change. Sorry but I recognize the attitudes previously expressed as anti-growth there is nothing positive there fore me. Happy face fascism is on of the tools of emotional repression.

  • (you posted in the wrong reply)

    I regard that statement as practicing propaganda technique # 1 as you actions believe your protestations and there is no retraction of your intent to repress others.

    Yes, just one person who would like everyone else to be thinking the same and to not be thinking so much other “divisive” stuff lol
    ho
    “I was referring to the overall trend (as I see it), of increasing division within our community. Just how I see it, and I stand by my original comment”

    #1 pretend you are one of the group and have the values of the group and then attack those values from within.
    Or another way to say is : Use the values of the group as a weapon to destroy the values of the group.

  • What it looks liek to me is that JD is using three different propaganda techniques all with the intent to silence the opposition.
    ..
    1 pretend you are one of the group and have the values of the group and then attack those values from within.
    Or another way to say is : Use the values of the group as a weapon to destroy the values of the group.

    2 Use personal attacks to attempt to provoke members of the group into personal counter attack and then hopefully if they go too far you can appeal to a higher power (moderator) to get them silenced.
    ..
    3 Use the threat of outside hostile forces to threaten and intimidate the group into silence.

    Unjustly accusing negative opinions to be personal attacks in order to silence them is in itself a personal attack.
    The only personal attack I have noticed here is yours when you portrayed all the negative opinion to MR as the voices of rage and trauma of the emotionally disturbed.
    ..
    So while professing to stand by democracy and freedom of opinion, you , at the same time, advocate silencing all negative opinion so that that there isn’t any “division” of opinion within the community – only monolithic thought that it the thought you advocate.
    So. in effect, you revealed your own agenda and inconsistency in the same short post.

  • “Rage” lol – I suppose you find the opinions expressed here to be “non-compliant”? Yes that is a very serious issue. Quite outrageous indeed!
    heh

    For one thing it should be noted that the author of this piece has titled it “I enjoy” thus opening his personal feelings for public inspection and discussion.

    Well sir, you are using propaganda techniques to try to invalidate the opposition POV that you do not like. Not unlike Big Pharma’s propaganda team hard at work or system mandarins attempting to enforce compliance on dissidents.
    ..
    You have labelled cold blooded analysis as “rage” and denounced negative opinions as “mudslinging and uncivil” You try to discount and invalidate the opinions of others by my making aspersions to their state of mind- that their negative opinions are merely “passed on trauma” and need to be silenced.

    These sir, are personal attacks – you have crossed the line!!!
    Where is the moderator, indeed!!!

    However I will not report you as you do not seem to be part of the choir and it would be worthwhile to preach to you.

    My cold blooded opinion about Psychiatry is that it is an institution practicing mass murder (both psychic and real) and is run by cold blooded killers at the top who are motivated by wealth and power. Civilized humanity is in conflict with these despots.
    A big lol on the lack of “true dialogue” with the system being the fault of the voices of protest. And a big lol on using this concept on trying to suppress the voices of opposition attempting to provoke dialogue. You apparently wish to block civilized people from performing an intervention upon a sick and dysfunctional system.

    People are entitled to civilly and respectfully express their complete lack of respect and contempt for such a system. Naturally, tyrants and those who speak or propagandize for them will wish to suppress all such content.
    How can you make change if you have muzzled the choir?

  • When and how to relieve suffering is a difficult question.

    First, the drug pushers erroneously classify many behaviors as “suffering” so they can justify their drugs.

    As for real suffering no one wants to be relieved or robbed of their suffering except the suicidal. Suffering is the human identity, without it we are lost. We can intervene for those in genuine crisis or facilitate people to be more resilient and accept and enjoy their suffering more than they are but to rob them of their suffering essentially destroys them as human. And having destroyed them of that their resulting condition is used as a further justification for more drugs.
    ..
    Yes, I said “enjoy’ – most people enjoy their suffering more than they are aware of it. If people can understand that the inner feeling is part of oneself and not the exterior event which provoked the human response then this can be understood. Thus you can see that resilience is a battle for acceptance and love of one’s own body for one’s feelings are the body and thus is the inevitable understanding that love of one’s own feelings and emotions – ALL of them – is not only possible it is unavoidable as one achieves personality integration.
    ..
    The easiest way to destroy a human is to “relieve them of their suffering”.

  • “Well no- I don’t think anyone here would disagree that those are bad goals.”

    I disagree – they are behaviour oriented value ridden and ethnocentric goals. More importantly they are the goals of the would be controller not the goals of the afflicted.
    To achieve personality change the facilitator works with the person and with what the person wants.
    What the person wants and no one else. The person facilitates what is there, what the person is dying to become, the facilitator does not take anything away, he helps sufferers to suffer more intensely and more effectively, aggressors to be aggressive more effectively etc.
    People like MR do not trust human nature , they do not trust that the integrated person , the person become whole will do good so they try to control them to become good and in doing so keep them as fractured.
    This type of person is warped – they cannot trust that the basic nature of humans is benign – they do not even trust themselves – they live in fear and need to control.

    A facilitator also trusts their own process – what happens outside the protected place is beyond the control, the purview and the interest of an effective healer. culture and society belongs to culture and society and is irrelevant to the work of personality change.

  • Well said , but I doubt MR can hear you. He can’t tell the difference between a real human being and someone he has crippled into submission and mimicry behaviour with himself as the self congratulatory puppet master. So given that huge disconnect from humanity how can anything else get through?

    These people are fixed and rewarded for their mass failure and destruction of human beings – the system that has empowered them is the problem.
    MR serves as a cautionary tale for patients as to what to avoid – if they can.

  • “domesticating kittens – herding kittens” – raising kittens”
    Do you not hear yourself MR? – all of that is supremely insulting to human beings and human freedom – it is all murder of the consciousness of others to make them extensions of your own ego.
    ..
    You are firmly in the business of murdering human beings – murdering their spirit, murdering their aggression, murdering their negative emotion (and thus murdering all possibility of emotional misinformation) etc etc.

    ..
    And all of your three points – you warp to use them to dis-empower others placing power in the hands of yourself and others – their bosses etc.

    Woe betide the poor sap that becomes aggression-less under your manipulations in our collective exploitative and jackbooted environment.

    It’s the typical anti-therapeutic anti-healing attitude which is to take away and suppress what is there instead of help or intervene and help the person to integrate to emotionally, to transform to become effective and to become self actualizing fully emotional and self responsible resilient and tough.
    ..
    All your posts are about what the person does in the outer world – out in society how to control this – bluntly speaking that is not your business – not the business of a healer – your business if you are a worker of the mind is the inner world – if you can intervene and assist in a protected environment the person to change their inner world they will take care of their outer world themselves – what happens out there will be life itself – that is not the interest or concern of a healer.

    It’s only the interest of a healer if the person brings it to the healer to be worked on and even then what is being worked on is the person and not the outside events.

    Even when a healer relates (not merely talks) to a person about the outer , they are really only interested in and dealing with the inner and with inner changes.

    When I transformed from being a SZ to being fully alive nothing at all changed about my social circumstance – not for a long time. The outer world is not the inner world. A number of people I had known did not notice I was now alive and that they were now dealing with an emotionally alive person.

    Large numbers of our species apparently have no ability to see the inner world. Unfortunately most of present day P-docs seem to have been drawn from this number.

    .
    The more you concern yourself with the outer world it demonstrates you have no tools to deal with the inner world and probably are not even interested in finding them.

    The key concept in assisting transformation is work – emotional work -done by the afflicted. Or they don’t work – in which case their choice not to work becomes work to them as it is emblazoned in their consciousness by the helper.

    An experienced helper can get this started by interventionist techniques in an instant. It’s not rocket science – there’s nothing complicated to “figure out” all people operate on the same principles of emotional functioning ALL .

    ..
    Psychiatry with their lie of brain disease is saying they don’t and they don’t treat certain people as if they were human and apply the same human approach they would to others – they abandon them and abandon all hope for them as human.

  • Errata:

    “dysfunctional psephology” s/b “dysfunctional psychology”

    “Deafness of mind drug usage” s/b “Defense of mind drug usage”

    “I I I – control control control” .s/b
    “I, I, I, – control, control, control

    and following that phrase should not have bee in bold.

    sigh…. aiya aiya

  • “I .. get angry and defensive a.. someone else says that helping people with medications is like killing kittens, – MR”
    ..
    OK This is dysfunctional psephology probably as part of a neurosis. The subject is concerned with ego defense (and first and foremost at that) and that blocks an objective response to the criticism. A person cleared of neurosis through some kind of process does not maintain an ego need in pursuing either an art or science. It bottles the person , makes growth difficult or impossible. This unfortunately is the state of all P’s- they are not put through a rigorous process and purge in a confrontative growth process. The thesis , also reflects this emotional dysfunction (it’s all about the needs of the author’s ego at the sacrifice of everything else) as well as is a deafness of mind drug usage.The latter being primarily motivated by the former.

    MR is not unique and thus is a source of material for me as I am profiling this class of persons indoctrinated by biomed ideology or having a personality type that fits in this environment in which they have been empowered by a corrupt and fascist political-economic system.
    ..
    Mr is one of many and they have common characteristics of which I understand and I suspect there is not a wide awareness of certain of these characteristics even in the alternative culture.
    In the defense of ego , both here and later on in the other post MR is shutting out the input of a large segment of oep who are relating narrative evidence that they or others have been destroyed – annihilated – by these bio-meds. MR can’t hear them – he is armoured.
    No MR, you are not killing kittens- you are killing people – you are killing what is the essence of people and you are so arrogant and solipsist you can’t see it and can’t even see it when you literally write it.
    ….
    In one sense the discussion of psych drugs is almost irrelevant. One characteristic of this group of people who I see as dysfunctionally destructive to others is that they try to do the same thing with drugs as with behavioral interactions. David Allen is a prominent example of this .

    “I could get the symptoms of more than 90% of people in the hospital well under control by the time they left.- MR”
    ..
    ..He writes it and and he still doesn’t understand himself – does such a person really understand wht the concept of “others” means? –
    I I I – control control control .

    The MR-Allen group- they are simply running in the wrong and opposite direction, Their basic ideology of mental health is actually anti-health, and their therapy , anti-therapy.

    Drugs and even mind drugs can have theri uses but the overwhelming truth is that anyone on mind drugs cannot achieve completion as an integrated fully emotional functioning independent self-responsible human being. I have known and met many people on mind drugs -every single one of them has been murdered – condemned to a living death with no hope of becoming whole because of the drugs. I know this because I’ve been there- I know every side being SZ, being psychotic being and psych meds and going through a transformation process in which I finally became a fully functional human being. That was 35 years and two careers ago. My existence is the proof that psychiatry is lying and my experience of what true or effective help is tells me that MR is self-delusional or self-serving in his assessment of being of “help” to others.
    ..
    The parrot that repeats your words that you want to hear is dead MR, it has died and gone to inner space where it waits for life – you have killed it along with the bunny rabbits and humans – you nailed it’s feet to the floor and propped it’s eyes open but it is dead – it’s just a prop in your self-glorification fantasy.

  • “How did it happen? And more importantly, do you see how the profession can ever move back in that direction again?”

    $$$$ and power – so deep and so vast that the propaganda machine of the MSM is totally corrupted.
    It’s all firmly locked with the economic fascism and burgeoning totalitarian by an aristocratic elite.
    ..
    What you gotta worry about is not what the SOB’s are doing now but what they are going to do next.

    You have a population that believes it has democracy and capitalism when in fact the reverse is true.

    It’s two minutes to midnight – One thing can’t change without the other changing – it’s a massive crushing machine.

    You must leave now, take what you need, you think will last
    But whatever you wish to keep, you better grab it fast
    Yonder stands your orphan with his gun
    Crying like a fire in the sun
    Look out the saints are comin’ through
    And it’s all over now, Baby Blue.

    If you or your loved ones have problems – run hide – get them help outside of the machine if you can.

  • Aha! the people have spoken – or given feed back that is. 🙂

    I don’t mean to be super picky or making a personal attack, but the number of common errors the good doctor makes and the lack of careful punctuation and capitalization is noticeable.

    It really does make a negative impression. If it was jut a commenter it would be different, we sort of expect flaws in quick comments – but the author of article – all eyes are on them.

    And in the spirit of transformative therapeutic change 😉 just the use of a spellchecker would make a world of difference.

  • “Drugs do help some people, and don’t harm everyone. Unfortunately, though, we don’t know who will be helped, who will be harmed, and why medications are active, or useless, in general or in any given case.”

    Psych drugs help the people and the people behind the system who give the drugs but rarely or never help the people who receive them unless it’s for just the short term.
    And yes we do know the answers to all those questions – just read Robert Whitaker’s books.
    ..
    Psych drugs are psych death is the short and simple understanding – mostly true.
    The modern psychiatrist’s job is to categorize symptoms and figure out which drug to give to their patients and everyone is a patient for the goals of the Bio-Med Psychiatric Industry.

    The problem is that this class of people working in the psychiatric Industry has no understanding of human emotional functioning beyond some basic level and they are unlikely to learn it. In fact perhaps this industry and educational process attracts those with some kind of blunted emotional syndrome. Eventually they will diagnose themselves as having some kind of syndrome for the next DSM and give themselves psych medications but that won’t help the rest of us because they will continue even more in their robotic and mindless ways.

    You see there is emotional functioning and there is “emotional functioning”.
    There are levels – to say for the sake of argument.
    A person on a lower level of understanding will model and project the universe upon that level, They can ever see the next level.
    What are some factors of emotional understanding? Acceptance, depth, intensity flexibility of emotional experience ..and of course dis-identification from their indoctrinated social matrix.
    The last is one of the special benefits and curative process of those fortunate enough to have experienced and passed through some kind of psychosis.
    And all of those factors are everything psychiatrists usually are trained to avoid and I offer as example that the mind crime of having too much emotion is now a syndrome or something on the DSM which requires “treatment”. (goodbye evolution).

    ..
    But of course , again I’m preaching to the choir.

  • Hey Doc, Don’t take this as a personal attack..but you are the author, not rank and file commenters such as myslef and more is expected I think.
    Seriously when I saw those things (yes those) my opinion did go down a notch – doctors are not supposed to be fallible. 😉
    You know – presentation of self in everyday life and all that.. as an intellectual, a writer, a careful and caring poisen etc. .

    Those thing ah , trying to say it nicely…I’m talking about using a spellchecker.

  • ” they could work on their marriage when they weren’t paranoid or delusionaly jealous of their partner, or they could go back to school and rebuild their career when they weren’t paralyzed by depression and negative voices in bed, or thy could work on loss and grief when they didn’t have a panic attack everytime the subject was brought up. ”
    ..
    Well trained dogs jumping through hoops doing what you think they should do under the guidance of drugs and probably drugged suggestion indoctrination in anti-therapy technique.

    Behaviour control is not mental health. Nor are behavioral accomplishments.
    If you facilitate anyone to mental health – you don’t have to care what they do in society – they will take care of that on their own – your job is finished right there.

    What did they really want, what would they have really done if they had been human? Fully human?
    You will never know.

    Was any one of those fully independent and self fully self-responsible?
    Of course not. They are propped up cannot exist without being propped up and have become the extensions of the wants of others.
    Psyches as spaghetti sauce.

    Don’t pretend, don’t soft soap it – all these meds are lobotomizers – that’s how they work.
    ..
    But then again as Laing said and you agreed – you do not understand how emotions work in relation to “symptoms”. So that leaves you with using control methodologies. Lobotomy is as lobotomy does.

  • I hope one day you will write an article titled “Do I enjoy facilitating the mentally ill to be cured”?.

    Or just take the short form “Do I enjoy curing people”? which though technically can not be correct is easier to communicate.

    When do you think you will get there? How many cures have you racked up or facilitated to date?
    I am thinking of starting an Organization something like a “Society of the Cured” as a kind of social service or legacy to civilization.
    Cure is possible. I was cured – so are many others.
    Dare to dream. Dare to cure.

    If you have not yet cured anyone, perhaps you need to tone down your enjoyment a little bit until you achieve something more useful. Perhaps alter your paradigm. Perhaps you must feel that you life efforts have been useful but by recognizing failure you may finally achieve real success.

    As Dylan said ” there’s no success like failure. And that failure’s no success at all.”

  • Allow me some alternative paradigms…

    “But he always refuses meds when he has a choice, so after a few weeks out of jail or a hospital he drifts away again. That’s pretty heartbreaking.”

    No that’s a wonderful affirmation in the triumph of human beings- even the heavily disturbed have enough common sense to realize that any emotional life is better than a drug lobotomy and realize that a drug can never solve a problem of consciousness.

    If you take away a person’s suffering you take away what makes them human.
    And I am talking about the long term use of drugs not temporary relief from crisis.
    ..
    The most import thing is that so long as the Bio-med “solution” is applied as a solution the person is condemned to psychic death – they can never become a full person because they need all their emotional parts working unrestricted to get there.

    ..

    “I’m trying to do that, but don’t find it so easy to love people who are really psychotic and who I can’t understand and whose emotions don’t seem to be connected to what we’re talking about.”

    Yes, that’s obviously true – you, like so many others (suffering under the Star Trek Spock-Data Syndrome) do not understand human emotionality and Dr, Laing’s advice to you still applies – you need to keep trying or rather START trying.
    ..

    All of the “good things” you think you are doing – you are not doing good – you are murdering psyches, finalizing drug lobotomies – it’s not a relationship when the person is a drugged puppet or trained dog pleasing you with the correct behaviour -it’s just a fantasy – your fantasy – and you are alone there – the other being no longer exists as a person.
    ..
    Who are you protecting from suffering? Yourself from seeing it? Psych Meds do not eliminate suffering – they suffocate it – the psyche of the person become trapped like in the “Phantom Zone”.
    What is this “recovery” If you have something positive to offer, why use this word. The popular idea of “recovery” as well as the bio-med model idea is not much better than an Ice pick lobotomy.
    When you can write a book called “A road to Cure” then you will have something and you will have finally understood What Dr, Laing was saying.
    People who have had rotten lives when they become cured will naturally become troublemakers – I wish you well , I hope you unleash generations of troublemakers upon this we certainly do need a new population that will demand their political and economic freedom.

    ..
    “It’s pretty enjoyable to help people feel better. Isn’t that what a doctor is supposed to do?”

    No.

    OMG you actually said “feel better” . Feel better than who?
    Yes, massa, I’m quivering, shuffling ma feet along “feeling better”..
    Is that your vision of “success” for others “Be the best you can be ” is that?
    Well at least you can still be looking downwards.
    It’s insulting.

    No you want to help people to feel and the first thing and best thing they will feel is pain. Oodles and oodles of wonderful pain. Purifying rage, oceans of sweet sadness etc – then they have arrived, then they are free standing on that big open plain of emotion where nothing bothers them.
    But every one knows all this, I suppose I’m preaching to the choir.
    heh

  • http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/discovery-of-teen-gene-could-help-combat-severe-mental-illness-later-in-life-1.1597520

    Don’t worry people – you are all saved – they have discovered the “teen gene”
    This abhorrent piece of propaganda was on the MSM news , TV tonight, – Canadian CTV.
    They actually tired to pretend they had discovered the “mental illness gene” but they never fully owned this statement – they didn’t dare go that far yet..

    They were studying brains in jars (brains of people who had committed suicide who had “donated” their organs to science. They had rows of these brains in jars labelled with numbers ( people tear up your organ donor cards right now!) They are figuring out how to control these brains with science – make sure they straighten up and fly right.

    The MSM played it hook, line and sinker – they were soooo sympathetic. And they had a series of snippets form Psychiatrists pushing this wonderful new advance…

    Bottom line of course was make sure your children get “treatment” – they actually said “drug treatment ” and//maybe some “counseling” .. yeah we all know that “counseling” – did you take your meds today?

    Bottom line for our civilization is that the a medical-pharmaceutical-political alliance has dominated and is in control of the public mind with absolute lies. It doesn’t end here of course – it gets worse and is getting worse.

  • The father ignored him.
    The mother indulged him.
    Community health services only offered control methods.
    The parents knew form very early, there was a serious problem.
    Essentially it was the parents duty to communicate with their son and effect change – they did not or could not however they provided him with everything to develop as a danger to others.
    ..
    The lesson is transformative personal growth was not tried. If not successful the parents or social institutions still have the power to limit the son’s resources and capability to do harm.
    ..
    Transformative personal growth is the key and is what is missing and missing from the parents. Some parents do it naturally.
    The answer does not come from castigating psychiatry , it comes form recognizing that there is an alternative to the control or “straighten up and fly right” one dimension solution to human problems.
    Evil is only relevant to humans and is something created by humans – evil here was created by a failure of all concerned to address accept and love the negative side of humanity expressed in the son.

  • I also think top down repression is the source of almost all mental illness. The details are not so obvious – people internalize repressive behaviors and replicate them.

    Modern Psychiatry does not, at least in the first place create mental illness – it exacerbates it , prolongs it and often murders the personalities of those it purports to help.

    Big Pharma is merely an opportunistic vulture using the situation to secure power and wealth.
    Simply castigating psychiatry and/or escaping it doesn’t resolve mental illnesses.
    Psychiatry at best is just a distraction along the road.
    ..
    Most people have neurosis (or worse) from the repression ie unfinished emotional business from their formative years – this is from copying repressive behaviors or being forced into repressive behaviors.

    In any case support and sympathy does not help neurosis generally-it’s only a very small part of the road to cure. In order to cure neurosis and some deeper dysfunctions that operate on much the same principle the person has to undergo more pain, not less. But it turns out to be the type of pain they will like or learn to like. It’s much like surgery has to be performed on the battlefield without anesthetic – there is no comfort road.

    Some people can find their own way, perform their own surgery – most need a guide or surgeon.
    ..
    Outside of immediate crisis, support is useless if a person with neurosis or worse is not getting guided interventionist or confrontation or subjecting themselves to guided critical inspection from an expert (of which there are very few these days it seems). Sympathy and support has very limited use in breaking through defensive systems.
    And to do that , the person has to want it or be convinced to want it. This last is very important because Bio-med psychiatry with it’s new “Talk-Therapy” has convinced many to not want to subject themselves to confrontation or interventionist technique. It’s the whole purpose of Pharma’s “talk-therapy” (which is not real psychotherapy) to steer their clients away from the processes that would be curative. They have created an entire ideology for this which has crept it’s way into the public consciousness. They present these ideas as ‘healthy’ when in fact they are the opposite. We need the opposite awareness in the public consciousness – that, for instance, sharing and exploration of the negative makes people stronger not weaker.
    ..
    The situation is complex but those are some general considerations not to be neglected.
    I see so much sympathy and ‘support’ used to repress others or block off others in defensiveness.
    ..
    Sharing to me is the essence of positive human communication. Defensive supportive people often obfuscate or block the sharings of others which very much annoys me. Sharing requires one to be tough, open and honest. Sharing is a curative process. Real psychotherapists encourage provoke, guide or do anything it takes motivate others to share their life experience and they guide them from there.
    .
    I love sharing or storytelling and listening or facilitating others to share. If people or a person doesn’t share – there is no one there. Non-sharers are people who are wasting life. It takes concentrated effort over time like an art – to learn to share – sharing is the only true learning and true contact with others.

  • I was cured of Schizophrenia. I have no problem at all with the label itself in fact I can extend the meaning more precisely. The symptoms listed under the DSM are a very good classification.
    It is not the label itself to describe common symptoms that is a problem, it is how the label is used.
    I have heard nowadays psychiatrists take you into a room and tell you you have SZ like it is a death sentence and tell you you will have to be on meds for the rest of your life. This is misuse of a label.
    I am from the old days probably in a more enlightened place (but not today) , this was never done to me. ‘They’ never even told me my label, I just read it on the forms they foolishly gave me to transport to the social assistance-and it meant nothing to me. So this encouraged identity sensitivity was never done to me. I never spent one second thinking about the horror of ‘being’ a SZ.
    The most significant reason for that is my SZ was successful, I was mind washed by psychosis and fear, the last of my social identity was purged. Being in worlds where the basic reality of my senses was in doubt – why should I care about the label of things when the lesson of dis-identification from labels was so thorough? Psychosis is a great cure to learn to separate the idea of labels from the things themselves. One can do this by dropping LSD as well – its one of the pillars of the old ’60’s hippie ideology.

    This is one of the benefits of SZ the de-structural-ization of the ego , to breakdown the old system to prepare for the new system. I understood this after the fact and I understand this process as part of SZ.

    No, I want ‘them’ to use the label SZ. They have to write something on the folders and the label describes common behavioral patterns that stem form a specific emotional structural problem – that is all it is not the other stuff which is piggy backed onto it. ..

    I have to account for a gap of 30 years in my life – “traveling in Europe” doesn’t cover it. Neither does “connecting’ with the universe.

    I want them to use the label and I wnat them to acknowledge that I am cured, that I am transformed , That I resolved this problem such that my personality was only restructured and in fact I became fully emotionally alive.
    I am not acknowledged, I am ignored and denied. I do not exist, I never existed. And now strangely enough (actually not strangely, it’s par) the counter culture community wishes to deny my existence as well.
    Cure,fix, transform, challenge , change, restructure, solve, , get optimized.. These words and others like them, both the bio-med industry and the counter culture do not wish to use. It is because in my growing opinion now because they have no experience in and thus no ability to use a paradigm of success. These entities seem to be locked up in deadly battle with each other, each ignoring the obvious – which is just simply be successful – start assisting cure instead of encouraging failure.

    No my problem with SZ was not the label nor the typical dysfunction that I had described by that label but the fact that I was cured. My social identity was objectively damaged since SZ was declared an incurable biological ‘disease’ when it was so obviously a emotionally dysfunctional condition and curable for myself and I believe for many others.
    ..
    Life may be a mystery but that is irrelevant. What is important is for SZ people or anyone with a mental illness to clearly define their troubles and work on them, through mediation, therapy whatever. Mental illnesses are problems of consciousness and can only be resolved by the application of conscious effort be it the ‘zen of no mind’ or ‘the principle of the application of brute confrontatative force’.

    If you refuse to define mental illness , you cannot define mental wellness and there is an objective reality to both these things, the weller than well fly jet planes, write books, go into combat, get on the board of directors -as opposed to taking a respite in a cracked up state whether it is a place run by zen monks or Bio-med pill-pushers.
    Life is concrete not abstract philosophy.

    Using a label is not the same thing as treating people like labels and also the label SZ can be used without any application of the theory of brain disease and use of psychotropics. These are two separate issues.

    To clarify a little more, I completely agree with the diagnostic of SZ (which I went to my local SZ Society and studied, noting that a Pharma company had collated the DSM info and printed the materials adding their own conclusion that SZ was a ‘chemical imbalance’ – used by this supposedly altruistic society – but even that is no never-mind). I see this definition as precise pertaining for the most part to a fairly common type of emotional problem and I see it as extremely useful. And it is useful to me in identifying others who have problems like I did an knowing an approach to help them. Now this definition should be understand in that I see all those symptoms as psycho-social with emotional roots and understand the curative or transformational process as psycho-social.
    So in other words I take the same set of observations as the Bio-Med Psychs and see them all through the light of human experience – not chemistry. It’s a human psychology that requires a more fundamental understanding of psychological processes than the typical human has.
    The cure of course for SZ is emotion.. wonderful emotion , invigorating rage, oceans of soothing depression, golden heavens of sadness.
    That might sound like a different vision of health than is commonalty heard, it’s strange but both the Bio-Med industry and the common mental wellness community have the same thing in common – they are running the wrong direction.
    SZ need drugs to help them experience emotions not avoid them..but yeah, it’s not that straightforward – I am just making a point.
    All SZ have fear and anxiety to the deepest level – it’s the driving engine of SZ positive symptoms. ..But drug away the SZ’s fear and you take away everything the person is and cut them down. The positive symptoms occur when the old fragile personality finally fails in it’s desperate attempts to manage and block impending emotional conflict.

    Yes, Bio-med psychiatrists are unwitting monsters ignorant of basic human psychological processes and murdering personalities by the millions but really so what? . in terms of curing ourselves they are irrelevant – complaining about hem is advancement Zero or perhaps getting back to Zero for the negative. If people can use them to get some emergency respite and the get away form them it’s not that bad – but it is getting harder to get away from them nowadays.
    Nevertheless,they are not the problem, and neither are labels.

    We identify problems work on them and solve them and in this case we work on problems of ourselves . Part of the lessons to SZ is that the SZ’s world cracks entirely forcing the SZ to 100 percnet accept they have self-problems and motivate themselves to work on them with full commitment.
    Cure for this condition cannot be partial, – it is not like quitting smoking and one is still the same – one’s basic self changes – this doesn’t happen without full acceptance of a need to change.

    In this case , it is completely correct we can’t work on a label – in all the work I did to transform myself I never once thought about any label.
    ..
    It is equally not useful to become fixated on the misuse of labels. In this case you are still using the label just on the reverse side of it. This is still empowering Bio-med psychiatry. It’s defining oneself in terms of opposition to something – which is a false self.
    ..
    Complaining about the misuse of the label however is completely valid – dumping the label itself is not constructive

    The best way of understanding human problems is to have paradigms that include others understanding not exclude them and place yourself at war with them . R.D Laing’s paradigm is completely compatible with using the label SZ in it’s purely diagnostic form.

    The label SZ does not denote a disease – this is an add on- an interpretation of the symptoms observed commonly to define a type- SZ denotes standards symptoms of a very specific type of psychological emotional problem.

    Sure ,when we use the label SZ, we know more than from absolute zero – I find out right away form experience, the label is not irrelevant – just because the Bio-med industry misuses it is not my problem – is their problem.

    I don’t like the approach to try to deny the existence of mental illness, it is not resilient, nor positive goal oriented – you are defining yourself and others out of existence. It really looks like simply trying to soothe people who feel hurt at the expense of being realistic and encourages them to engage in denial that they have a problem to winch they must exert efforts.It looks like denial and blaming others for one’s feelings. And maybe a request – ‘be nice to be’ which is ok but doing this way is not learning to communicate effectively.

    Taking it out on the psychiatrists is an easy displacement – they are mindless monsters but this is not curative for SZ.

    The best way to refute Bio-med psychiatry is to take 100 people that they consider incurable and hopefully assist fifty percent of them to be cured. Just one cure destroys their entire paradigm of failure.

    I experienced horrifying states of madness and at one time slit both my wrists and neck (it was the perfectly logical thing to do – actually, to try to escape the mental state) – I understand it perfectly why it was etc and I don’t need anyone to try to pretend it was the fuzzy wuzzy desire to connect because it was what it was – intense mental suffering and trying to define it as something ‘nice’ from a position of being removed from it is discounting my experience.

    I got out of ‘there’ alive, free, tough, resilient. I don’t need anything sugar coated. The rubber has to hit the road somewhere, I don’t see how advising people to go off the road is going to help get the gears in motion.

    And I just thought of a last thing here. Of course! My contact with the mentally ill is and has been extensive and now I am evolving that. . The label SZ does not mean ‘nothing’. I am most familiar with SZ people ‘my people’ (for the main) and recognize them, harmonize and can advise or assist them the best.There is a real world connection between ‘label’ and my shared experiences and correlated experiences with those such labelled. I find other people labelled differently to be in fact, different! and I am not so familiar to advise them. However, recently I have found out that it is very confirmed to myself that my internalized principles from an effective psychotherapy are universal and I am having some success with a few people labeled bipolar. Though I myslef have never had this precise experience I do I can understand it through associate experience which is very definitely different.

    So labels are not meaningless, they relate directly to different groups of people with those groups having common experiences of self of troubles with self .. on the main ,as it were …

  • “The time I spend supporting other people is time that I cannot spend caring for myself, because my most crucial self-care practices involve me being quiet and alone.”

    My opinion. The best thing a person can for others is to be emotionally selfish – then as they are real to themselves , they are real to others. And as they are real to themselves they will follow the natural path of human development,in which having translated needs into want they are more likely to be altruistic.
    But there is no shortcut nor elimination . Nobody gets to altruism without embracing ongoing selfishness.

    A world of emotionally resilient people who don’t need much support is more likely a world of caring loving people.

    Is Bio-med opposing ‘Support and Sympathy’ or are they just the same thing? Both are systems of control and stabilization. In fact Psychiatry created a new version of psychotherapy called “talk-therapy” which is full of support and sympathy, avoiding confrontation and consequently helps to keep patients on their meds or at least a lifetime of 200 bucks an hour treatment.

    .
    Unfortunately I think this general attitude of anti-therapy has filtered very strongly into the public consciousness as an ideology of mental health.
    Support is to keep somebody from jumping off a ledge when they are on the ledge, confrontation is something to help them change themselves so that they don’t want to go back to the ledge.
    In effective psychotherapy confrontation is used because all parties intrinsically understand that is reason why the person is there – to be confronted with themselves – something like consentual S&M games but there is no safe word, though through experience the person discovers not only a safe environment but a transformative experience as the rotten teeth are pulled.
    ..
    In a “radical mental health community” I would like to see confrontation proactively used alongside support.
    Generally support means staying the same, useful when one wants to be as is – confrontation means change.
    .

    I am a suicide survivor. I got the entire story after the fact because I was in another part of the world. My sibling was in a ‘wonderful’ environment of support such that ‘…’ continued to be the same until ‘…’ finally made a successful attempt.

    Someone told me . ‘gee they couldn’t figure out what went wrong, they had the psychiatrist, the drug , the circle of supportive friends .. gee… maybe if it had been a different drug…’
    Everything except an effective confrontation to help guide the person towards towards self-change.
    ..
    Yalom thought as a therapist he was love’s executioner – destroying an illusions that kept people self-destructive..
    We would be more helpful to our friends sometimes if we were a “friendship executioner”.
    ..
    In long time observing psychiatric ‘consumers’ interact with social workers I observed a large number of policing ‘unwanted behaviour’. In every one of those instances I could see an alternative path of confrontation a ‘work point’ –that would be experimental and unpredictable and possibly help the person to integrate – of course it would help even more if they had not been dulled on drugs. These social workers in those situations often practice ‘happy face fascism” on the ‘consumers’ even they structure some activities to practice this ie not allowing them to say or express anything ‘negative’ (this perfidy for people who have extremely negative life experiences that they have never shared or even fully digested) . The result is of course , the workers suffocate the real person to both the workers and the person themselves and they help to create an artificial unreal presentation of themselves The bio-med industry celebrates this propped up policed shadow person as a ‘successful recovery’

  • Thinking is not feeling. I will take it that you meant to say you “feel differently”, Because if you actually meant to say “think” you would be trying to argue that I don’t feel what I feel, that my feeling is invalid and I shouldn’t feel this etc etc.

    So I will take your meaning positively:
    Sure!!
    “Hope lies eternal in the human breast” and “the young are forever resilient”.

    As for the young man, he is going through the gates of psychiatry hell staffed by hell’s minions. I feel sorry for him. Certainly it’s not ideal. heh
    I hope he makes it out of the system death, though fewer and fewer do these days as I can attest to in this province.

    I suppose if at that age I would have preferred not to know the future or even understand that present. Ignorance is bliss sometimes.
    If we refuse to see the bones on the beach , we can’t honour them.

  • Sad ending to the story, the son is hospitalized The system got him – for now anyway. No place to run, no place to get help, nabbed by the annihilators and a family he is better off without having.

    The dice of drowned men’s bones he saw bequeath An embassy.
    Their numbers as he watched,
    Beat on the dusty shore and were obscured.

    Used to be controlling parents blamed rock and roll or jazz.

  • So as a extension of this post, Mr Early accuses you of having death on your hands – in a nutshell you can ask him if he has life on his?

    Bio-med psychiatry and it’s supporters have done worse that murder million of people on the globe – they have terminated their emotional life processes -sentenced them to an eternal suspension of themselves as human beings.They live on , the root of their consciousness, despite all outer apparent trappings and false fronts, still remain in a half dream unfinished state, suspended in a chemical tomb of horror, the rest of their lives are robbed and they eventually pass away having been effectively nullified as human beings.

  • “Straighten up and fly right’ – this is the apparent psychological understanding of the family. Unfortunately a quite common response to behavioral adversity in our society and has a lot to do with inherited mass cultural attitudes quite possibly an inherited cultural transmission of ideologies of personal fascism.

    To my mind , despite the hysterical posturing and possible emotional protestations I identify this kind of behavior as loveless and uncaring. Yes, yea, I’m sure there is a defensive protestation of love made often with accompanying anxiety and hostility. A facade of caring like this is often illusory , behind it is a selfish maintenance of ego interests a need to control and objectification or lack of acceptance of others. This is shown in the destructive emotional conflicts with others in society. Where is the base where strong quiet love and acceptance pours form? Is it there? Is it obvious and effervescent?
    ..
    The “Straighten up” mind has only one solution for others – “Do the right thing” – “say the right thing” – otherwise all is lost, it is a disaster. They only know this one solution to any behavioral problem, they have no empathy for for consciousness, no ability for the acceptance of others which is the beginning of assisting emotional transformation and stems from genuine love.

    The outer shell becomes paramount importance and the inner state is not accepted nor loved. If Biomeds make the person act right and talk right then it is a success! That the person inside is lost,destroyed and turned to dust is of secondary consequence.

    Here is one of the fundamental “root causes” of mental illness in our society. The lack of understanding and acknowledgement of growth processes stemming from selfless loving behaviour and the lack of condemnation of the behavior of control. We do not teach formally or acknowledge growth processes – teach them and transmit them in or culture. We do not teach that there are transformative growth processes and methods.

    “Straight up and fly right” is one dimensional and doomed to crash with the slightest problem. It is not just an attitude of some dysfunctional or destructive families it is also a problem replicated in the medical bureaucracy where the power of control becomes the ruling ideology far more important the the transmission of love and growth. We have the horror of robot like medical professional, seemingly barely human themselves, rewarded for being vacuous, manipulating others eliminating ‘wrong’ emotions. “wrong’ states of consciousness with themselves totally no understanding of even the simplest psychological process of the interplay of how emotions function.

    Indeed how can these Commander Spock-like clones understand emotional interplay in the ‘humans’ when they are busy waging war on the world of negative and ‘wrong’ emotions. It has now culminated in ‘excessive emotion’ being placed on the DSM. They are waging war on and putting an end to evolution itself.

    Perhaps the family of an troubled person is abusive and the root cause of the problem or perhaps the family is abrasive, destructive, selfish caustic, vacuous, poisonous or non growth encouraging to the offspring. Whatever, it means that person is alone without inheritance. Perhaps I can define the word inheritance here as a transmission of solid emotional knowledge practices and caring. Inheritance of such a kind is almost an intangible , maybe not something often discussed or identified.

    That lack is a tragedy for many people and I’ve met so many of them – adrift in an internecine society without a solid emotional inheritance. The only hopeful thing is that person can get an inheritance from somewhere else because they can never get it from the family.I know this , my own inheritance was nil , nothing – I got what I needed elsewhere and I learned form a life of desperation to identify in an instant – ‘necessity’ – what is necessary to survive and succeed. These assessments maybe difficult to do but they must be made ruthlessly because the consequences are the difference between life and survival versus death and failure.

    What society – mass culture needs primarily is not lessons in Schizophrenia and drugs but first, lessons in how to love and how to identify lovelessness.

  • Actually what you are showing here is the creation of bio-med “talk therapy” or control anti-therapy. These practices did not originate from traditional psychotherapy. It was probably influenced and founded by Pharma bio-med money. Then this group of bio-med talk-therapists took control and made the definitions (played word games) to simply exclude traditional or real psychotherapy.
    ..
    The new therapy “Talk Therapy” even removed the word psychotherapy making it seem like the only psychotherapy was “Talk Therapy” with it’s new directives and practices which completely oppose traditional or historical psychotherapy. The new psychotherapy was not in fact competitive with Bio-med psychiatry. The bio-med’s early enthusiasms and triumph quickly waned as they found that many patients were non-compliant. So anti-therapy was developed and designed to assist the med program by helping them stay on their meds.

    It’s a guarantee Bio med talk therapy has never had any cures or successes in the same way Bio Med psychiatry never has. It is theoretically possible that the practice may replace the meds but then in the same way the ‘client’ needs to continue the treatment/brainwashing constantly. So the bio-med talk therapist is guaranteed a lifelong full wallet

    Traditional psychotherapy, as well as other forms of assistance from society – meditation groups etc, though has had many cures or successes . I know because I am one of them.
    And I am soooo lucky it happened in 1977 because today I wonder if there is a single real psychotherapist out there?

    I judge that by comparing the practices (which I internalized) of the former group I was in with narratives of current practices – so far I have come up very short with no real certainly any such practices still exist though there are hints that they do but those people are not posting on the internet so far as I know.

  • In fact, to make my point, everyone using the phrase ‘talk therapy’ to mean psychotherapy has already sold out. I was cured in the late ’70’s by psychotherapy – “talk therapy” did not exist. The Bio-med industry invented this word in the ’90’s.

    I find this term offensive, what I went through, all my efforts were not just ‘talk’. But that is what their talk therapy is meant to be – just talk, the intellectual function is used to control the emotions and behaviour, emotion is actually avoided and suppressed in ‘talk therapy’. For example, sympathy,”support” and happy face fascism direct clients away from facing their emotional conflicts. Bio-med Psychiatrists decry the ability of talk to reach major dysfunctions – and they are right – just talking is not emotional transformation. So why not call it emotional therapy, consciousness therapy or personality therapy? Answer: because they don’t want that – they want the word “talk” to be definitive which is to say they want transformation failure or in other words their success is the human beings failure.

    Talk therapy is a paradigm of failure, the term is intrinsically designed to point the mind towards failure and approach psychotherapy the wrong way.

    It not just many therapies but our culture that is largely mis-directed towards emotional health. There are many therapists, who just reflecting their anti-growth cultural values think they can alter clients emotional lives but somehow by completely keeping the client from experiencing certain emotions in therapy. So the term ‘Talk Therapy” just exacerbates this general problem.

    If people want to achieve success in clearly definable terms and goals they need to separate themselves from Pharma’s terminology and paradigm of control and transformational failure. Talk Therapy is anti-therapy, it is something completely different from psychotherapy but disguised as psychotherapy.
    ..
    If you don’t like the simple word word psychotherapy then find another one but the last thing anyone should be doing is adopting terminology from an industry of mind control, behaviour control and emotional death/emotional suppression.
    Dare to free yourselves – reject the industry’s terminology!

    There definitely is a practice of anti-therapy -therapy designed to control and prevent growth. I can cite many examples and even individuals who have websites. It is clear that wat they do is behaviour control. This needs to be clearly distinguished form genuine therapy and is distinguished by clearly identifying this practice as “Talk Terapy”. If anyone practices real psychotherapy why confuse others and mislabel what you do as “Talk Therapy”?

    It’s best to clearly distinguish yourselves from the bio-med practice. Then you can work towards definitions of success.

    And I wish the majority of therapists would stop actually practicing “Talk Therapy” and start practicing psychotherapy – start generating legions of the cured , or the restructured or the resolved ..however you wish to define it, but define it as success – if you don’t know how – find out how it used to be done.
    How it used to be done before Psychotherapy sold out to become “Talk Therapy”.

  • The answer is that bio-med’s “Talk Therapy” is not genuine Psychotherapy. Talk Therapy as practiced by Bio-med therapist is in fact “anti-therapy” and a method of control – just as psychiatric meds are a method of control.
    Some talk therapists try to do what bio-meds do but without the bio-meds -they try to establish a rigid control on the client. This still, with or without meds is anti-therapy.

    Reformers must regain the past and use the word psychotherapy for genuine psychotherapy and realize that anything labelled “talk therapy” is in fact a paradigm of failure.

    Most effective psychotherapy involves emotional transformation – talk therapy does not – just the denigrating prefix “talk” shows this.
    “Talk Therapy is a term invented by Big Pharma in the ’90’s – it indicates therapy run by people who do not understand emotionally transformative processes and are not involved in such.

  • “resolving personal and interpersonal conflicts and of healing (body and mind), through genuinely healthy living”.

    Not even close and generally incorrect.

    You have managed to do exactly what you complain about your political enemies doing. You’ve turned a description of a precise extremely positive unique experience into some vague nebulous scrambled eggs.

    I would go back to the drawing board and find some way to describe experience and specific events by going towards them and not away from them.

    Corleone’s got to come out of that washroom with something more than his hot dog in his hand.

    How about a definition that can be a mission statement, a blueprint, something that can be reverse engineered to be actualized?
    Probably you need definitions that include all sides in, not exclude them out.
    There are no good definitions for this, the language has not been developed yet to match my experience here. I am using neologisms and language to to try to describe actual self-experience and self-knowledge as opposed to many others who are trying to use language to explore something they don’t quite fully understand – if at all they know what they are trying to explain.
    In doing so I will use whatever is practical in order to communicate to all concerned and there are levels.
    I don’t let any angers or resentments interfere with practical definitions or practical communications There are many levels to this. I have some things I generally keep to myself – people have to develop to a certain level before they can understand them – no point muddying the waters.
    Cured is cured. The basketball is through the hoop. Someone wants to argue it was a foul shot or that really isn’t a hoop or that really isn’t success – I don’t care.
    ..

    “SZ’ definitions have precise list of positive and negative descriptions. I formerly fit all those definitions. In this context I was only incidentally cured of SZ in that definition because in fact my basic condition that produced those symptoms was cured so that just automatically burned away all consequences of it.
    ..
    For those that don’t know or understand – ALL of those symptoms (listed in Pharma’s guidebook at my local SZ society) were in my case (and I extrapolate to probably all SZ) – are fear driven – such a deep pervasive fear embedded in the entire biological body that is is hard to contact and identify from the outside – (and of course those seeking to control will usually not be seeking to know) but that is what drives the SZ engine in terms of those symptom definitions. And yet, on another life level one can define SZ as an psychological/emotional dysfunction that fallows a particular pattern in the lifelong development of an individual.
    And yet even on another level so-called ‘psychotic experience’ I recognize as possibly part of the curative process that prepared me to break through from emotional death to emotional life – the old structure which was extremely rigid- needed to be broken down so that a new structure could emerge.
    ..
    So I was cured of SZ which cured me. It’s complex.

  • “Again, as if “addicts” were somehow worse than anyone else—never mind that American society has a huge blind spot for those addicted to power, money, fame, and digital-age distractions; and never mind that “addicts” are certainly not the only people in the history of the human race who have harmed others, deliberately or not.”

    I remembered this so I thought it was worthwhile to point out.

    Here is an expression of “anger” But in fact probably this is something like the ‘blame game’. Here anger is used for another purpose , in fact the originator in this contact probably cares little about the content of anger he may even no longer feel anger about his subject but is now using a little piece of learned behavior. Anger here is used as an attack for the defense of ego. The author here is defending from criticism which may may have been offered either constructively or destructively – I don’t know the circumstances. If it was presented constructively in an mutually agreed upon context to receive critical analysis them the anger response falls into the category of ego defense of perhaps defense of neurosis.There are methods of learning how to not react defensively to any form of criticism while at the same time absorbing the greatest possible truth for oneself (such as ‘fogging’).

    It doesn’t matter, the context is not that important, the point is anger is used here for another purpose, so it’s not the anger that is a problem it is how it is used.
    Sharing anger and pain about a life experience without an agenda is a different context.

  • “I think human support is very important…schizophrenia, and other distress producers that visit our species. Keep working at it. If you can achieve good results, I’ll be the first to cheer.”
    ———————-
    I was cured of SZ by with human assistance in the form of psychotherapy (not Pharma’s talk-therapy as you have described it which is behaviour control) over 35 years ago. I am willing to share the process with anyone who wishes to learn from me so that they can assist other SZ who are similar to myself as I was (and I think there are many) to be cured, as well as to use the same techniques to which are quite applicable to many who have the DSM labels. My blog is easy to find , anyone can contact me there.

    And yes not only did I reach the end of psychotherapy I also got a sign off independently from a Psychiatric Institute. It was probably filed in the ‘shredder’ drawer. I actually had a copy of the document in transit. If I had only known the significance of it then I would have made a copy.
    ..
    I think your offer to cheer is quite disingenuous or perhaps you simply don’t know the consequences of creating a closed conceptual model. Your model cannot accommodate any other paradigm of reality. You have declared the psychic world to be flat and you have no way to explain the explorers who return.

    After I was cured I found myself rejected by the social order precisely because of an establishment that had beliefs and attitudes just as you have expressed. I had a new personality that did not match my former life identity. I no longer had any social fear or anxiety so I had no “engine” any longer that could generate any kind of mental illness. As a new personality the only way I could survive and have social success was to create a false identity and hide every trace of my past, none of which had any correlation with my new personalty which was created in psychotherapy. I became fully emotionally alive and emotionally self-reliant 30 years after I was born emerging from a condition fully encompassing the label ‘SZ”.

    In the last few years, through internet magic, I have found several others who also who also became cured or to use a different concept-underwent personality reconstruction or however one wants to describe it, and they did the same thing I did – ie they went underground to have a career, a family etc- and they still are there – hiding from the ‘Guardians of Mental Health’ who have now established a full alliance with the Government and Private Industry.

    Now if I was a failure and remained a SZ, I would have had a place in the mental health community, gotten living help from the health care system, the government, and I could have even made a bridge to the social order and found work , housing etc. But being a success I was rejected by both worlds – it was very hard times indeed – in fact the worst of my life , a person who has no legitimate existence nor acknowledged history in society.

    I got kicked off disability welfare for becoming healthy and the government man at the employment office refused to hand me the job card for a floor sweeper because he said my past history indicted “I had a problem”.
    Charybdis and Scylla.
    Oh, don’t worry, I more than survived, but not by being part of the known universe.
    .
    So for anyone to get what a huge hypocritical industry pretends they want to achieve and what millions ostensibly think they are clamouring for… will actually make that person, a pariah and have to live like a hunted criminal for the rest of their life. It’s like waking up in a science fiction novel – everything is found to be a lie, an illusion..
    …..
    I don’t believe you want to cheer. I studied your talk therapy advice it is deliberately designed for what I define as failure. I have a blog , I’m going to make a full analysis of your advice on talk therapy there. It’s nothing personal to do with you, you are an excellent example or reflection of popular Pharma Ideology, IMO, a model of what is wrong with Pharma’s “Talk Therapy’ and I can use that for my purpose to share from my experience what succeeds in genuine psychotherapy. In another perspective your advice certainly works – it works for the purposes of your ideology which is designed or motivated to control others. And control it is – they will not be negative! you advocate what I call ‘happy face fascism” (quite common with the pharmacop therapists and social workers) and they will not experience any negative emotions in your here and now and thus you cannot effect functional change to those things. And even you want to tell them how to live etc etc. That is all anathema to everything I ever learned or experienced in a successful psychotherapy. The people that assisted me, assisted others to healthy functioning and that is all they did – they helped people to WORK on themselves – they never told them what to think , what to feel what not to feel, what to do with their lives – they simply trusted the basic nature of human beings and assisted them to achieve function as human beings.
    You don’t have to control people to go out and have a good time or live well if you help them resolve their historical neurosis – they do that all good stuff by themselves naturally if and when they wish to. But that is only if you can help them resolve their problems and can lead them to emotional independence. I don’t see how you could with your advice and its’ clear your advice is designed to achieve the opposite. It’s the Pharma-med paradigm of establishing patient dependence and therapist control.

    The mental health establishment has no room for and does not want anyone who has successfully solved any serious mental health syndrome or condition on the DSM “death list” ( a better or nicer word currently eludes me) It would blow the whole industry – and not just the money – the whole idea of control would lose legitimacy and authority.

    This is the world you people as a group empowered by Pharma have created: that if people are cured, if their basic dysfunction is resolved it is not recognized or celebrated – credit is not given where due and even most importantly the torch is not passed on. The world you have helped create is one in which the entire social order is hostile to anyone is cured.


    Incidentally, as a person who went through all the stages of SZ including extreme psychosis etc , I never experienced SZ itself as a stress producer. SZ for me was a reaction to stress producers and to inner emotional conflict. SZ was in fact me, it was not something outside of me or separate from me.
    I may be a stress producer but I am not a thing, I am a consciousness.

    Problems of consciousness can only be resolved by consciousness itself. Chemicals can add to the mix but they cannot give direction and awareness to consciousness. ‘Work’ can only be done by consciousness.

    SZ has everything to do with the emotions and basic emotional conflict which can be resolved if these conflicts are resolved. SZ operates on the emotional-psychological level and a very rich one at that – rich in human experience ..especially and this is quite interesting to cross correlate – SZ has everything to do with fear and that negative emotion which you seem to abhor or wish to control or even ban in others, as per, your talk therapy advice ie anger.

    When I resolved my basic emotional conflict, the floodgates opened, I became fully emotionally alive and what a wonder it was and how wonderful it was that everything about myself and others now made sense.
    .
    So why do you and others work so hard to deny this gift of life to so many others that could experience it?

    That’s rhetorical – I know the answer but I don’t want to say it openly here – but generally I think it has to do with the common reason among many of our race who feel the need to control the human experience of others – because they fear it, they fear what they can’t understand, what they haven’t experienced, what they don’t want to experience and they fear what others who they can’t understand will do.
    They want a simple predictable controlled world and Pharma has given them the power to have it.

    The Pharma Ascendency is the end of human emotion and motivation – it’s the end of human evolution – for the masses anyway (biologists and psychiatrists included – though you may have assured yourselves near the end of the list) – I assume the elites or some portion thereof will go on excluding themselves from the control process until their Frankenstein will turn.

  • I watched the video..so you have a “panic disorder” and an incurable one at that.

    Isn’t science wonderful? it took us 4,000 years of civilization to invent a panic disorder along with the medication needed to neutralize it and our brains.
    I feel so smug, my prehistory ancestors just didn’t know what they would be missing.

  • “I do get that that’s true for you; simply, I don’t believe “SZ” (“schizophrenia”) refers to a clearly identifiable set of phenomena.”

    You have to come to land somewhere. Where do you have contact with ‘reality’ and it’s burdens?

    The people that helped cure me never mentioned “SZ” nor did I. I only worked on fear and other emotions and transformed them.In one precise day the changes stopped being incremental and became qualitative.
    So I’m saying neither I nor my guides worked in abstracts and ‘work’ is the key word here.

    After that I had to make up words for it , ‘my transformation’ ‘cured of ‘SZ’.
    and yes, I even got a sign-off from a psychiatric institute that was not involved in the psychotherapy but acknowledged the results.
    ..
    It was no big deal to me what it was called – it was just a fact of life I was cured of “SZ (the 70’s) and probably I thought I couldn’t be so unique. But I didn’t know the psychotherapy group was unique and that real psychotherapy was being snuffed out replaced by Pharma’s fake psychotherapy aka “Talk Therapy”.

    ..
    It wasn’t til a few years later I found out the ‘SZ’ was supposed to be an incurable brain disease ad that there is an 80 Billion dollar Industry backed by a propaganda machine that denies my existence and others like myself.

  • Thanks Jonah,

    Let me explain what “cured” means:

    Cured is cured.
    A different personality is a different personality.
    A restructured personality is a restructured personality.

    You can’t put a tree back in an acorn. I’m cured whether I want it or not.
    I’m not on a ‘road that works for me’ in this regard. I got off that road 35 years ago.I’m not doing anything to be cured or stay cured – I could be as dissolute as I want to be – if I want to be and sometimes I am.
    ..
    I don’t need to talk about SZ and be empowered by my talking. I was cured over 35 years ago, for 25 years after being cured I paid no attention to the mental health field and all those involved in it. I just lived my life.

    This is what cured means – this is what it means to resolve a mental illness. You are free to do whatever you want with your life – you can screw it up as much as you like or don’t like, you don’t have to care what anybody thinks or follow anyone’s advice.
    Cured is free.

    And I believe this is possible for many others based upon my many interviews and experiences with them and comparing my experience pre-cure to theirs. They DO need to be on a road, and unfortunately they are not.
    The road’s closed.
    Pharma cops closed the road.
    It’s the great disaster of this age.

    —————-
    What I actually decide to do and how to live is in fact healthy and I have internalized growth principles and do always work on myself.
    But this is a whole different story – this is just deciding what to do with my life once I had it.
    —>
    “But, for others (e.g., myself), establishing health may have required ‘going back’ to something (perhaps, some small but really quite beautiful ‘missing’ piece of ourselves) that was lost along the way.”

    What is it you want to ‘recover” here? This actually sounds like something different – not necessarily in conflict with what I expressed.

  • “when your life is in shambles, you want nothing more than to get it back”

    It seems the author is using a different paradigm and maybe has a different kind of problem. He wants to return to something he previously had. Maybe that is good,then again maybe not a good idea or perhaps he never had it – I guess only he will assess it and tell us if he gets there.
    ..
    My comments were referring to those with or formerly with mental illness/ emotional illness. I don’t think the majority in this group can ‘recover’ because there is nothing that they ever had that they can go back to – they need to develop/reconstruct/reintegrate/ cure into wellness.

    From Pharma’s perspective for say a SZ, only the symptoms and some disruptive social behavior are the problem therefore the symptoms once stopped and the patient in a policed environment, the patient has ‘recovered’
    This is something like regarding the outer shell only, the outer behavior only.

    “Knock-knock anyone home?” – doesn’t matter.
    “if any one was unhappy we certainly would have heard”.

    In fact as a cured SZ I know by reverse engineering of a sort, that SZ was a structural condition which existed regardless of any external, positive or psychotic conditions. I can see in my history a rather typical progressive development and it is very clear functionally how it happened, working with one part of my brain tied up as it were. And incidentally it is unimportant in a functional sense why I started that way. (ie nature versus nurture or both)
    And when that structural condition was resolved there was no possibility of those flamboyant billion dollar conditions ever existing in myself again.

    To the point – recovery is a totally inappropriate and even deceitful term to apply towards the positive change of anyone experiencing or troubled by mental illnesses.Health lies in changing, transforming, restructuring or resolving – not in going back to anything previous.

  • I disagree your attitude and assess you idea as anti-growth.

    In fact everything is the opposite of what you say. Anger creates needed energy , anger in itself and by itself is healthy, an desired state of advanced being, is invigorating and a necessary component of personality reconstruction (not ‘recovery’), and what better emotional bridge do you have with others than by sharing your anger or by identifying destructive enemies and thoroughly and absolutely rejecting them. If you cannot share anger with others nor tolerate the non-violent expression of their angers you have a rickety emotional bridge.
    —- .
    “Recovery’ is a Pharma word created by the Pharmaceutical Industry that they use to mean mind-washing the “consumer’, often with Pharm-anti-therapy aka “Talk-Therapy’ (as opposed to genuine psychotherapy) propping them up with social agency support and placing the patient in an chemo-emotional strait jacket. If people mean something else other than this meaning I advise them to use another word and reject the word that was introduced by Pharma to promote the Pharma Agenda and the Pharma paradigm. So long as you use the Pharma words you are trapped in the Pharma paradigm.
    I advise all those who want genuine change to stop using the meaningless and confusing terminology of the Pharma paradigm and use words of real meaning that involve real cure/ personality reconstruction/ personality-character change of functioning.
    (I just gave everyone several alternatives).
    Pharma terminology is the terminology of failure , so long as you use it you are trapped in failure.

    It doesn’t matter if every member of your peer group uses it, take a stand and stop using it. The world changes with one person.

    “Emotions have their place”??!! – that’s Pharma talk – Emotions ARE the place. Emotions are the ambrosia and caviar. Without emotions there is no time, no experience of time, the Pharma sedated do do not experience time and without time there is no experience of life.

  • “I tend to launch into F-bomb-laden tirades when I’m stuck behind some pokey driver on the two-lane roads near my house. I know I shouldn’t and I know it’s pointless, but I do it anyway”
    —-
    Driving is one of the life cases in which I recommend emotional suppression. If you can’t stop being angry, pull over and stop driving. A car is a deadly weapon and you are endangering your life as well as endangering and terrorizing others.
    (You here = everyone).

    Anger here is obviously a neurotic problem as the relationship between driver and (all other drivers is impersonal – the social order will not and cannot change according to to whims and expectations of one individual. If any such person expects this, it is irrational and a problem of neurosis that needs to be resolved – if not by oneself then in a psychotherapy group.
    So solve the emotional problem in a safe place when you can before you go driving again.

    Notice there were two expectations in that sentence. The expectation of others is irrational and unrealistic. In the wide world , what happens is what happens, if we are contending with what happens we are in synch with reality, we are healthy, if we are contending with what we expect to happen we are in fantasy and cruising for a bruising as it were..

    Holding on to this expectation leads to anger and quite possibly conflict and death.

    The expectation of self is also unrealistic here ie that one feels anger but thinks that one shouldn’t feel angry – this warps the emotions, basic survival instincts and growth process of an individual. And that one is a big mess that will need some time to sort out.
    ..
    Cars are deadly weapons –
    “If you nerves aren’t like steel , don’t do the wheel.”

  • “Thus far, my anger has not helped in my recovery”.
    ..
    Perhaps you needn’t give up on it. It’s only been a year- you can probably eventually resolve these feelings rather than give up on them or suppress them, As your experience showed – suppression just leads to a horrid vacuity.
    ..
    I would suggest your anger tells you who harmed you and why and protects you and guides you. Doesn’t it? If a person wakes up from emotional med-death what greater mentors and friends could you have but anger and pain?

    Maybe the problem really is that a false idea of pharma-med “recovery” has not helped your anger. Just be angry – what’s so bad about it anyway except that it annoys most of the people who wish to control you?

    But I understand you saying something is going wrong in a complex situation – you simply feel stuck.

    Just remember what the Pharma anti-therapists want – they want you to avoid pain, avoid negative feelings – so of course they are never resolved, you undergo no growth process and then the pill will send you to your final mind resting place.

  • ” Still, I hold that wasting energy—any energy—on this crap gets in the way of the primary goal of healing.”

    “Blaming someone for his essential and probably unchangeable nature gets you nowhere— only angrier. I know; we all do it”
    —>
    This latter is the key statement which is incorrect and is responsible for some of the misguided thought here.I also do not like the anti-anger comments in the follow-up and I would challenge them, though I don’t have time to write in detail everything I want to say.

    Acknowledging cause or blame does get you somewhere – it get you survival it teaches you to find the positive and stay away from the negative and the idea that you are somehow forced to get angry by this is a misunderstanding of the personal growth process. No one is tied to any circumstance of life or forced to be manipulated by life. Our emotions can and do change and in the natural process change for the better, Denying the reality of life to avoid inner change or suppressing one’s emotion is a very self-constraining solution. However acceptance of both outside and ‘inside’ will bring problem resolution and peace.

    ‘this crap’ is actually the essential stuff of your life which gives gives energy and is healing… unless you are misusing and not accepting the crap… but I’m saying the crap itself is not to blame.
    ..
    People (and organizations) who are to blame (for hurting you, destroying you etc) are people who are to blame.
    “id est quod est”
    It is what it is – later, hopefully you will not be angry so much or at all and maybe you will even forgive some of the SOB’s but you will always understand what is an SOB, to you.
    That is one of your basic truths – don’t throw it away.
    .
    Your gut instincts and emotions will tell you who your enemies are , who wishes you harm – your rational (perhaps medicated .. and thus the purpose of medication) brain never will. So give proper creds and respects to your anger for giving you life, for protecting you, and being part of your life.
    ..
    I understand though the problem process presented here and commend the author his efforts. I myself have not had this “blame game” problem which I understand as simply a problem of avoidance displacement.
    Neither blame nor anger is a problem to me – they are gifts – that is from my tradition.

    The problem here seems to be only to avoid working on oneself by displacing to some complex of anger and blame.
    But what I say is those things anger and blame are not to blame.
    Don’t blame blame – celebrate it.
    No the problem thus is avoidance – blaming blame – suppressing blame, suppressing anger does not in itself create self-work.

    Only not doing self-work is to be blamed for not doing self-work. Suppressing anger, giving up blame will not help you do the self-work – that’s borrowing from Peter to pay Paul and the piper still has to be paid.

    —-
    “railing on your psychiatrist for doing what most psychiatrists do simply wastes your energy, energy that would be better spent tending to yourself.”

    I would challenge everything in that statement. You follow your natural angers you are creating energy and tending to yourself.

    But wait! the essential detail of the circumstances is missing. Did you actually avoid self-work in a specific situation or is this simply a life process- natural anger and natural experience as you share your life with another, or self-reflect on what has happened to you and by sharing it thus changing it.
    One is destructive and one is constructive.
    The devil is in the details, or the intent. the exact specific details ie ‘the narrative’ – the full shared experience -which was missing in the example. .
    So I’m saying – it is the intent that is the problem not the basic building blocks of life.

    For the constructive side – I certainly would celebrate it – railing about “Dr PushPill” or even better directly to him sounds like a lot of fun. I could really get into a good creative rant – it would multiply all my facilities and experience.
    Ay, here’s the rub the question – is how well are you enjoying it – a distillation reaction to one of the poisons of life and if you are not loving it , why not?

    If you are really digging it you will move on after one or a few times – you will use it up , it will lose it’s lustre.

    It’s good to direct our awareness on towards that the idea that we can use our so-called negative feelings destructively or constructively and that depends on our meta-feeling: how we develop our feelings about our feelings. A psychological truth is we get to choose how to feel about our feelings and how to react to them , but we don’t get to choose them. The most constructive strategy is to learn to love and accept all our emotions.

    ..
    The essay above uses the word ‘should’ either directly or indirectly many times. Each use of the word ‘should’ means an
    expectation is at play which generates either “sad or mad” when it is broken. I advise people who wish self-growth to visualize an alarm siren going off every time they speak or write the word “should” (my siren was a psychotherapist who castigated me). At that point rephrase the sentence or thought without the word should – in doing this you are forced to think without an expectation – and are thus transcending yourself towards ‘acceptance’

    When the intent is self-growth (as opposed to using anger or any emotion for ulterior purposes) , acceptance is a way to convert anger – we give it up – nothing at all needs change on the outside. (Natural) anger can never be given up by suppression – we change by allowing and nourishing emotions.

  • Hard Questions lol – none of them are hard questions to me.

    Only how to implement the obvious answers is the tough one.

    I’ll give it a watch – thanks

    Here is a 10 min clip from 2 years ago

    What is mental health today – psychiatry, neuroscience & society – Nikolas Rose

    hXXp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8mkcXdTZ_g

  • I don’t need studies. I am the simple proof, I was cured of schizophrenia thirty-five years ago.
    ..
    I’m just glad that no one like Torrey or is act-alikes got their hands on me. And I’m glad it was in the old days- If it was now in the time of a very aggressive CTO program (Community Treatment Orders), the DSM and and the apparent triumph of the Biomed Psychiatric Industry, I would be living dead meat or a ‘walking dead’.
    I am quite active in my community and I know many of the living dead, and I know their minders who are helping to keep them dead. The whole industry is regimented in an almost military-like structure -I never see even a glimmer of hope, protest or awareness there. It is exactly as if I was a lone neutral observer at Auschwitz watching ‘the Beast’ at work.

    The world the Torreys have created is a totalitarian horrifying machine that is sucking the life out of all it’s members both prisoners and keepers and like a predator ever searching for more victims and even more populations of victims.

  • Meds usually or perhaps always prevent cure or resolution of the personality functioning. Recovery is a misnomer because the schizophrenic has nothing to recover to- recovery is the biomed model term and I refuse to use it.
    Meds place the personalty in stasis or half-death – this is how they “save” the person. They save the person by destroying the personality.
    Being off meds doesn’t guarantee cure but at least the door is open.
    ..
    Schizophrenics who refuse to take meds are not necessarily anti-authoritarian. I was cured 35 years ago. Previously as a schizophrenic I refused to take meds because I knew intuitively that meds could not “solve me”. I was a being with desires and fears and anxieties, I knew intuitively and with certainty that the only way I could get what I wanted was somehow to exert some kind of energy to conquer myself though I did not know exactly what that entailed.

    I don’t think I was unique in that. It is this fundamental feeling or memory of feeling from which I understand very well why schizophrenics and other functionally ill persons do not want to take meds. I am certain that like myself they simply ‘know’ because in that we share a fundamental sense of understanding ourselves even in that very disturbed state or especially because we are or were disturbed in obtaining our desires and were frustrated in achieving them.

    They are not beings that are simply disturbed or dysfunctional, they are beings that want things and they know that a pill is not conscious effort and only conscious effort can resolve problems of conscious awareness.

    And yet isn’t it ironic or odd – that the helpers – the psychiatrists etc who have no inner disturbance don’t intuitively know this? And are so puzzled by the ‘non-compliance’?
    And of course – how would they? – they only could if they are the rare type of personality that can empathize more another rather than have the desire to control them and also accept the full emotional range of human beings both positive and negative as part of life.

    I did take meds for two years, later on so I can also understand what motivates compliance and how one can accept or even desire the security and comfort of this compliance.

    But a word on the ‘comfort’ of this compliance:

    How did time go by for me on meds? It didn’t. Time ceased to exist. Snap your fingers – that was my experience of two years on meds, whatever happened I wasn’t there.
    Why is that? Because a sense of time requires an emotional life.

    That two years was the only part of my life that is practically memory-less and yet my memory for my life both post and pre-cure otherwise is generally holographic.
    This was my experience of biomeds – I experienced personality death aka biomed death.
    ..

    ..