Thursday, January 23, 2020

Comments by JanCarol

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  • Dr. Kelmenson –


    …”a couple of weeks” tells me that you do not understand about the adjustment of neurotransmitters. It takes at least 3 weeks for the neurotransmitters to adjust. This is why, when someones starts taking the drugs, they are told by physicians (and pharma) that it might take at least 3 weeks to work. See Anomie’s comment, above.

    In my work with Surviving Antidepressants, I have seen Cold Turkey withdrawal that went fine – until a stressor hit – then the compromised neurotransmitter system collapses. This is a COMMON occurrance that can happen 3, 6, 9 months or even 2 years out from “withdrawal”

    These drugs *change* and *alter* the pathways of normal, natural firing. They may never go back to baseline.

    In my opinion you are not qualified to do anything with these drugs, (in spite of your expensive degrees) as you do not understand how they work. See works here at MIA by Stuart Shipko, who postulates that it’s often impossible to “heal” from these drugs. He’s a doctor, perhaps you will listen to him, if you are unable to hear what survivors are saying:



    Unlike Shipko, I like to believe that there is improvement – but – there is also the mitigation of damage, and the change in baseline to deal with. My cardio health is better, other symptoms are not.

    Your “clinical experience” may be achieved because the patient is too afraid to tell you what you’ve already explained to them is not possible.

  • Thanks for replying, but you’ve only angered me. Yes, swallowing glass causes problems. The “reverse placebo” effect has nothing to do with the damage and disruption caused by these drugs.

    Your statement about “Medicalising withdrawal” tells me that you are out of touch with what really happens:
    1. when people take the drugs
    2. when the drugs are continued for longer than 5 years (and systems start to break down), and
    3. when the drugs are discontinued (especially after long term use).

    “Medicalising withdrawal” means you still think that the “patient/client/sufferer” is crazy and “making things up.”

    It’s my understanding that when you take that first SSRI/SNRI/ Neuroleptic drug, they alter – possibly permanently – the neurotransmitter cascade in the brain. From the FIRST PILL. talks about liver DAMAGE. (that’s not a placebo, or a “reverse placebo” effect, that’s medical, bodily damage).

    These are just two quick examples I can find off the top of my head on a lazy Sunday morning.

    If you are talking about the psych difficulties of withdrawal (I was not) – that is caused by the antidepressants, as well – since your neurotransmitters are changed, it makes it much more challenging – if not impossible – to return to “baseline.” Hence, Whitaker’s “Anatomy” points out the way use of these drugs increases the chronicity of the disturbances. The baseline is gone.

    I stand by my statement (elsewhere) that doctors should take these drugs for 3 months, then cold turkey – it’s the only way you will understand what really happens with them. And they should try not only “antidepressants” but also neuroleptics, like the experiment David Healy did. To find out what akathisia is. You know we had a suicide here at MIA recently – due to extreme akathisia? Is that “medicalising withdrawal?” or “medicalising drug sfx?”


    I understand you do not prescribe – but you are still falling into a pit of denial about just how much damage these “placebos” cause.

    I’ve been off the drugs for 3 years. I went through most of the symptoms that Rachel describes below – the arrhythmias (which were medically charted) have cleared, the IBS (I refuse to call it “disease”) is improved, and I am leading an amazing, fulfilling life. Yes, I still fall into a depressive pit – but that’s not “medicalising withdrawal” My withdrawal is DONE, and has been for years. That’s the “new baseline” that my brain set after 20 years on the drugs.

    Read the case studies at There will be a large amount of noise to pick up the signal – that these drugs are damaging, harmful. Dare I say – that pharma wants to make more patients? It’s not such a long bow to draw – I think it was Peter Gotzsche who pointed out the irony of the metabolic disorder induced by olanzapine – and the metformin to help diabetics = both from Eli Lilly.

    And please, when you are talking to survivors, take care not to imply that we are “making things up” or “focusing only on problems,” or “medicalising our suffering” that was INDUCED by medicine, medical practice, and “standard of care.”

  • Excellent post Dr. Kelmenson – I see the marketing of illnesses oozing out of all kinds of medicine, not just psychiatry. Such as the statin rort. (also not a fake drug, see below)

    The only thing I struggle with is the 4th one: “fake drugs.” Where you say: “Fake diseases go with fake medicines, of which three types exist: If your ‘meds’ were proven to only be placebos, as were antidepressants,”

    I know you quote Kirsch here, but you are missing the point of antidepressants.

    They are ****NOT*** placebos, they are merely as ineffective as placebo. They do have action and effect.

    If they were merely fake drugs or placebos, then people wouldn’t have so much trouble withdrawing from them, reference the cases at

    They are real, and dangerous drugs that disrupt digestion, sexuality, endocrine, metabolism, nervous system, brain – and other effects which are harder to quantify.

    Please don’t fall into the trap of calling these “fake drugs” or placebo. They are dangerous.

  • Daniel Amen claims that these things which you call disorders (“bipolar” and “attention”) are neurological in origin and can be balanced with brain treatments, like neurofeedback (there are others, too). There is an excellent clinic in Melbourne doing this kind of work.

    Orthomolecular doctors will correct a lot of these “disorders” with diet and supplements such as high dose niacin.

    Will Hall frequently speaks of the need to modulate sleep cycles in order to keep from “flipping.”

    Some might even claim that these “disorders” are rampant in our society due to epigenetic insults – re-engineered wheat (dwarf wheat which has high yields, also has more chromosomes than heritage wheat), pesticides, herbicides, even chlorine and fluoride, as well as food additives and processed food.

    Then there’s the role of trauma, relationships, and what strategies you learned as a child that are less effective as an adult.

    The truth is probably a combination of the above, and a “true” “bipolar 1” might still struggle, even after these things are corrected. Thing is – if you read Robert Whitaker’s “Anatomy of an Epidemic,” you will learn that “bipolar I” was never a chronic illness, it was episodic. If you could only treat your behaviour problems when they get out of line. But these drugs are not designed for going on and off, and this would be further destabilising.

    Ex-Bipolar, here (yes, there is such a thing). What I’ve learned over the course of my life (57 yo) is that if *I* can’t manage my behaviours, then nothing else will. Lithium poisoned my kidneys, flattened my brain – it’s coming back, but I’m a lot less intelligent, flexible, and capable than I was before. Antidepressants (combined with surgeries that happen in the course of a life) ruined my gut, challenged my endocrine system in a way that looks like chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia.

    I know how to be depressed, and I know how to prevent my “manias” (sleep is my key, as well as nutrition, and light cycles). And I found that the drugs actually ramped up my symptoms over time. So if I “get out of line,” it’s up to me to choose the things which help. Drugs are no longer among those things.

    I’m not saying that nobody ever finds use for the drugs. I am saying that there are many roads up that mountain.

  • Hey Vanilla – I’m not McCrea – but nearly all of my psychiatrists have been well educated, compassionate people, who thought they were doing the best for me with the knowledge that they had.

    And yet – I was prescribed lithium – by a very compassionate, zen, earth-mama psychiatrist – when I had a visible goitre. Subsequently, within 5 years lost my thyroid.

    And yet, this same psychiatrist became very sad when I said I wanted to go off. She said, “I’ve seen others do this, and there’s not a good success rate.” I had to give her an ultimatum: If you won’t help me, I’ll find someone else who will. So – she supported my taper (sort of).

    It’s the education of these caring people which is at fault. They are told lies, and so they tell lies. Some of them know they are lies, and keep telling them – but most of them really believe in what they are doing.

    My other “good psychiatrist” whom I got 12 minute “med check” visits with – just cut a friend’s dose of neuroleptic by 25%. She is having Tardive Dyskinesia, and so the cut is warranted – however – it really shows that they don’t understand how these drugs work.

    Psychiatrists-in-training, since they are primarily prescribers, should do more than just study the drugs on paper. They should put them in their bodies for 6 weeks, and then Cold Turkey to see what that does. After all, most psychiatrists think nothing of a “cold switch” (Oh, this drug isn’t working, let’s take that out and put this one in).

    It’s the education of them that is lacking, and as Steve says, it goes all the way to the source – the Journals are corrupt, the drug trials are corrupt.

    Have a read of Whitaker’s excellent, “Psychiatry Under The Influence: Institutional Corruption, Social Injury, and Prescriptions for Reform”

    To better understand what’s happening in psychiatry.

    Also – Peter Gotzsche’s superb, “Deadly Medicines and Organized Crime.”

    It’s like with any mob – the individuals might be awesome, beautiful people, but the overall effect of them in concert can be devastating.

  • jnicholas – #2 – “loudest and most persistent”

    When actually – in order to overcome a “negative” thought, you need to replace it with THREE positive ones, because the “negatives” – the stress-based thoughts – are vital for our survival as a species.

    “Must watch for tigers” is embedded more deeply in our survival than “cheer up.”

    Therefore the “negative ruminations” (as they might be called in therapy) have been developed as a coping strategy, and are more deeply embedded. You might say the limbic ones are more concerned with survival, while the neocortex is more concerned with executive functions (which, as you say, “short out” when under stress & duress).

    So – in order to overcome a survival “tape” – it takes 3x as much effort as it would to overcome a less emotional one.

    I feel like I’m not quite expressing myself well…I know that in relationships, because survival is so linked to the “negative” statements – that if you criticise your partner once, make sure you compliment them 3 times.

    It’s like I’m oversimplifying, but maybe it really is that simple?

  • Ross – have you ever received CBT – as it is presented in today’s “Mental health system” – when you were in a state of distress?

    You say that people here are misrepresenting CBT.

    But from a state of depression, a 6 week program to “cheer up” or “think better” doesn’t seem relevant in a situation which may be isolating, or feel quite futile. You might say that I’m “misrepresenting CBT” with this description, but I assure you, from the standpoint of the sufferer, it does feel quite like that.

    I’m all for adjusting coping strategies which no longer work (behavioural therapy). For example, when I was a child, I might have found it quite effective to throw temper tantrums in order to get what I wanted. This strategy might carry over into adulthood, where it is a poor adaptation to issues of being an adult. Many of the strategies learned in childhood to get through a difficult situation are carried into adulthood, where they are then considered “maladaptive.”

    Addressing these at the WHY level, is, however, more effective than just instructing “how to change behaviours.” WHY was this a successful strategy in childhood? HOW is that not working in adulthood? HOW can we address the emotions that cause the strategy to manifest, and find a better way of expressing them? So – it’s not really “behavioural” even though the behaviour is what is sparking the need to address it.

    My temper tantrums might have started when I felt helpless as a child, and that my opinions and voice was unheard. Perhaps they started in response to neglect. In adulthood, it may be that when I don’t feel heard, that’s when I’m likely to “go off” into a temper tantrum. What needs to be addressed is not the CBT of the tantrum – but the feelings of neglect, or feeling unheard.

    CBT is like a bandaid for a broken arm in this kind of situation. The end result may be similar: to redirect a maladaptive strategy. But to just look at the strategy and say “No, don’t do that,” and learn to catch it when it is happening, is not nearly as effective as understanding why the strategy is there in the first place, and addressing the feelings that spark the recurrence of the strategic behaviour.

    Ok. “nuff therapy stuff. There are folks here who think all therapy is evil (get used to it). I’ve found it helpful many times during my life – and I’ve found that the cold, clinical CBT approach is very denigrating, condescending, and overall ineffective for me.

  • KateL – that rash could be exacerbated by Cymbalta withdrawal.

    It seems that Effexor (in particular) invokes mass quantities of itchy skin issues – so I don’t see why Cymbalta wouldn’t have similar issues.

    Yeah, I see docs as little as possible…I told one doc (a “natural medicine orthomolecular doc”) that I didn’t think that my mood was any of her business, and she said, “What a thing to say!” I said, “It’s not medical, it’s my responsibility…”

    Of course, she launched into a lecture about how to improve sleep, blah blah blah, and – yep. I’d grown 2 heads again.

    But until we educate them (this is helped by developing LONG TERM relationships with doctors, so that they learn you don’t have two heads, after all), they will continue “standard of care” practice as usual.

  • Ah, Altostrata – I was just talking with someone who – in hospital – was prescribed drugs in DIRECT MAJOR CONFLICT with each other, and then wondered why they felt so much worse.

    If doctors and pharmacists can’t handle major drug interactions, how are they going to handle tapering safely?

    There is so much arrogance in the profession. Heaven forbid we should find that Peer Specialist information is more accurate, scientific, and effective than “medical advice.”

    Sigh. It feels like yelling into the wind, sometimes. But thank you for all that you do in Doctor education, case study collection, and helping people off the drugs. You helped me, and for that I am eternally grateful.

  • Here is the main problem with lawsuits: Doctors were following “Standard of Care” and as long as they follow “Standard of Care,” they are not liable for negligence, malpractice, or any other criminal action.

    THe HARD PART is getting lawyers / lawsuit to address that the “Standard of Care” is wrong. Usually the only way to prove that is is through FDA, which is now wholly an arm of pharmaceutical interests. Like Vioxx. That wouldn’t happen now.

    MORE PEOPLE DIE from these drugs, their effects, and withdrawal from them, than die in “opioid” events, or “vaping accidents” – and yet, all the outrage is there. Additionally, if you look into the opioid events, there is in a huge percentage of them (80%? 90%) a psych drug component, whether a benzo or a seizure drug like pregabalin (which is widely abused in the UK) or gabapentin.

  • hey Sam, I’ve been appreciating your comments.

    However, “appeal to authorities” is going to achieve nil result. “Lobbying” against the $,$$$,$$$ that pharma has to offer is like trying to stop the ocean rising with popsicle sticks.

    As I see it, the best way to approach this is word of mouth. Being a light of recovery that shines so that other people can see it. “How did you do it?”

    We each need to rebel within, because – lobbying the government is not going to heal someone from these drugs. It requires radical responsibility – for your moods and behaviours, and your own dosing schedule for tapering.

    Whether that tapering advice comes from BB or SA – or just from your own work with Will Hall’s Icarus Project “Harm Reduction Guide.” (how I started, then I went to SA for moral and social support) – doesn’t matter. But we need to get the word out: DOCTOR TAPERING SCHEDULES ARE UNSAFE.

    I need to review my “dear doctor” letter and put it somewhere like “Googledocs” so that others can use it. I don’t use Googledocs, so perhaps someone who has an account can help me with that.

    Because Doctors need education, too. They need to know that there is another way. It’s hard to present to doctors, because their education was expensive and tedious, and it’s hard for them to accept that what the drug companies have taught them about the drugs might be wrong.

    It would help to have DOCTORS teaching DOCTORS about harm reduction protocols for reducing psych drugs.

    I have a friend whose Tardive Dyskinesia is getting out of hand (they have had this condition for over 20 years) and what does her p-doc do? Cuts the neuroleptic by 25% right up. And they lose sleep and struggle with intrusions while waiting for the neurotransmitters to adjust…

    We can’t just go around smacking GP’s and p-docs (like I would like to) – but if we can distribute educational materials that are science-y enough, and short enough for a busy doctor to comprehend in short order, it might help.

    I used my “Dear Doctor” letter for a friend. Her doc was going to cut in half for 2 weeks, cut in half again, and then discontinue. A typical doctor response (and recipe for disaster). I wrote my “Dear Doctor” letter, and at least the doctor reduced that to 25% per month. Slower, not without consequences, but not a disaster.

    It’s so sad to have lost Zel, when there might have been another way. But he chose what he chose, and a light went out in this world.

    But “lobbying” Pollys who are getting their pockets lined from pharma, is a waste of effort. I think the solutions are grass roots. Revolution doesn’t happen by lobbying politicians. It happens when the little guy decides: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

  • I know, my first thought was: did he know about Surviving Antidepressants? We’ve dealt with a good deal of polypharmacy. There are things about his situation that might have made that challenging, however. In an institution, it is harder to taper and reduce doses. We haven’t done much with the MAOI’s, which are horrific drugs to deal with.

    RIP Zel, I’m glad you got the dignity. I think about that diginity almost daily in my own life.

  • Ah, the “Whole Plant” Medicine thing.

    it’s true. While it’s legal all around the USA (and now in Australia) to have CBD only extracts – if you want the REAL healing, it involves the whole plant. Marinol, a pharma extract of THC, is really hard to use – the people I’ve spoken with about it, use it only in the direst of circumstances – and now that CBD is legal – they supplement it with CBD so that they can feel better, not worse. Marinol alone “feels horrible.”

    LSD is an example of this – I was reading how Albert Hoffman tried playing with the molecule, adding, subtracting (it is an ergotomine) – but NO OTHER related molecules produced the effects of LSD.

    Something ghastly happened with MDMA, which was, by itself, a useful drug (and I call it a drug, there is no natural equivalent). When the US Gov’t (and I assume Aussie too) made it illegal – then chemists started tweaking it to get similar effects, so that “Molly” is not exactly the same, maybe never exactly the same. Hence the popularity of MDMA test kits – one molecule off can be a brain disaster.

    Another example of whole plant medicine is the coca leaf, which is nutritious, containing vitamins, minerals, and even proteins, which make it an excellent Medicine Plant.

    But when Europeans extracted the cocaine from it – different animal entirely.

    But here’s the thing – when pharmaceuticals are “engineered” they may not be as specific as you’d like to think. Take SSRI’s for example, which are supposed to work on the brain – but they also work on the digestive system (which is where 90% of the body’s serotonin is found). Many of these psychotropics – like Ayahuasca – flood the body with serotonin, which can cause muscle tremors, definitely digestive disturbances (called “purging” by afficionados) –

    Our body’s systems do not work in isolation. And it is a myth that pharmaceutical drugs (of any kind, psychotropic or not) are specific to one system.

    The myth is pervasive, as the ads tell us that diabetes drugs soothe your pancreas, or heart drugs affect only your heart…but statins also starve your brain of cholesterol. They don’t tell you that.

    But the “specific action” is a myth. So – I don’t really have high hopes for the “engineered” psychotropics (evidenced by the failure of Marinol to actually HELP people).

    And the Frankenstein drugs that might happen in the exploration process are frankly, quite frightening.

  • After sleeping on it, I feel compelled to add: if you are going to do ayahuasca, seek out an American centre which offers aftercare to help with integration. You may not have any issues with integration, but it is always nice to have a community “in the know” to talk to as you rejoin society after such a venture.

    There are several reasons for this. First – there is no language barrier for English speaking peoples. I don’t say this to be a snob, but because – with my hearing impairment, it was good to get my questions answered in a language I understand.

    Second, South American Shamanism doesn’t play by the same rules as Fluffy Bunny New Age Shamanism. There are battles between shamans, and wars, and shamanic weapons. Having gringos caught up as fodder isn’t really a moral issue under these conditions.

    There are many beautiful Central & South American centres for “aya tourism” like Rhythmia, in Costa Rica. There are other authentic experiences which are deep in the jungle (Three, unless you are an adventurer – this form of travel may not be for most). The hard part is seeking out the practitioners who care what happens to you, who want to facilitate your healing (and aren’t just interested in your money).

    And Four – once you leave the Central or South American Centre, and go home, they are done with you. You don’t have anyone to talk to as you try an navigate the changes and shifts that have been made in your brain.

    Find testimonies, and read all the articles about the deaths (tobacco juice ceremonies seem to be involved in many fatalities) the nightmares (adding toe, or datura, to the brew ENSURES visions, but they are not pleasant, and someone having nightmares might give the shaman more weapons for battle with other shamans).

    There are reputable places in Central and South America. But IF (and only if) you are called, I recommend finding an American centre which offers aftercare – you can call on the phone and talk to someone after your experience.

  • Anytime you base your esteem on peer opinion, you are at the mercy of peer opinion.

    Unfortunately, many children are being raised by Facebook and YouTube, and don’t have anyone to model centred self-esteem for them.

    Children’s brains are also at the mercy of the dopamine hit offered by the device. Adults have better executive function, and can (somewhat) resist this mindfark. But children fail to develop this executive function when they are getting 50-100 dopamine hits per day via their device.

  • Anomie, you covered the antidepressant washout, thank you. I tell my friends to expect symptoms (often of the autonomic dysregulation or mood-based variety) for up to ***TWO YEARS*** after ceasing the drug.

    I have tried to convey this information to American practitioners of Ayahuasca Medicine, but like the psychiatrists, they dismiss my concerns as irrelevant. “The Medicine will heal that.” they say. Uh yah.

    So – as someone who has experienced ayahuasca, there are a couple of things to address:
    1. Placebo ayahuasca? REALLY? No vomiting, no visions, what a boring 8 hours sitting on the couch listening to music. Just because it “looks and tastes” like the brew, doesn’t mean that the trial is effectively blinded. Even the psilocybin trials got a placebo drug with some effects, and even then, it was clear who got the psilocybin, early on.

    2. Fiddling neurotransmitters. Since my ayahuasca experience, I have wondered whether I have destabilised my neurotransmitters after psych drug withdrawal. My experience was over 2 years after discontinuation of psych drugs, and I thought I’d stabilised. This past 2 years of “integration” have been exceptionally challenging on mood, which gets to . . .

    3. LONG TERM EFFECTS. It might be awesome the month after, or even 3 months after – but what about 2 years, 5 years? What about repetition of the Medicine? The Ayahuasca culture seems to demand return to the Medicine, which makes me question whether the practice of losing your mind in this way is addicting. I admit to craving that feeling – even though I have no desire to go through what I went through before (days of Medicine, purging, before that release was felt).

    Effectively, ayahuasca serves as a massive flooding of the brain with serotonin. The Medicine People say that it is adaptogenic, that after the experience has passed, your brain “resets” to what it should be.

    However, if your brain has been altered by antidepressants, does that “switch” get “sticky?”

    I’m all for the freedom to alter consciousness at will. I do not like these “Medicines” falling into the hands of psych practitioners. There are dozens, if not hundreds of stories of “bad practitioners” of this Medicine and abuse and neglect during and following the experience. So – how would Psych people be any different from the Shamans for whom this is native practice?

    I advocate great caution and respect. Like “mindfulness” being removed from the Spiritual Practice of Buddhism – use of this as a “drug” and not as a Spiritual Based Medicine – is dangerous.

  • Wow, Doc. You are in my neck of the woods! I thought you were up in NT somewhere, or I would’ve referred folks to you when they want to come off their drugs. Unfortunately, the only ones I have in this neighborhood are docs who go too quickly, and throw people into crisis, and then indicate that their “coping skills aren’t handling the consequences of the withdrawal from chemical assault. . .

    So – that cuppa and cake which Boans offered, goes for me, too – I’d happily shout you to compare notes about tapering. And I’m “in the ‘hood” so to speak.

    Good to know that someone on the inside see psychiatry’s crock of yhit for what it is. (I notice your “Rate a Doctor” ratings include what a grumpy bugger you can be – likely you didn’t give out the scripts they wanted!)

  • Oh JW this is a vital point.

    Can we take up a collection to see that her writing and videos remain?

    YouTube will likely keep them indefinitely – but her hosted blog may not. Is there some way we can check on this?

    It is likely her main Legacy, and needs to be “out there!”

  • Hear! Hear!

    As a lithium survivor, I really really really want to read what Julie has to say about “Life After Lithium”

    Is there any hope of getting the manuscript and moving it forward to the next stage of development?

  • In my experience with Surviving Antidepressants, NA is only about “drugs of addiction.” The 12 step model has indeed helped many of our members, but it is a challenge to find groups that put psych drugs into that category. Many of them in NA take psych drugs to overcome their primary addiction and place great faith in them, not realising that they are setting themselves up for another battle later.

    It very much depends on the group.

  • Good point Richard – and – what happens when – these women (who were sexually inexperienced when they started the drugs) – evolve and try to form relationship – which is one of the purposes to be developed in adolescence? When their sex “doesn’t work” do they beat themselves up more?

    There is a growing trend of “asexual.” I have been left asexual from psych drugs and surgery (can’t say what did what), and so I went on the Ace forums. But GOD FORBID I should talk about:

    1. Personal use of antidepressants and their effects on budding sexuality, and
    2. (even more hidden) The use of antidepressants in the mother (all too common, linked with autism and other neurological damages)

    I didn’t get banned from the site, but anytime I brought this up, it got dropped like a hot potato. They would rather talk about “gender identity” and “sexual orientation” and the myriad ways those fit together…

    It wasn’t “cool” or acceptable to consider that antidepressants might be the source problem.

    After all, if it changes the sex of frogs and fish – what is this grand experiment doing to humans?

  • Been there, done that, got the T-shirt (but maybe not at gunpoint!).

    I have learned that if I am having impulses, urges, and dangerous inner voices – that there is something underneath them. That they are valuable companions in this journey called life – and if they ramp up, it is because I have been ignoring them, shoving them down (and this repression makes me more dangerous). Only I can control my moods – the lithium only dampened them down so that I was unlikely to even know what they are – much less how they could help me (instead of harming myself and others).

    It is not a lithium deficiency.

    You feel very strongly the need to be controlled by the lithium. When the time comes, and they send you for dialysis, and you can no longer take the lithium, what will you do then?

    In this society, we are called to often behave in non-human fashions, in the name of conformity. It may be that some of us need the Soma to survive the society we have built. It’s my desire that we can all be free of this mental and emotional control, free to be the humans we were born to be. I do recognise that it may not be practical for so many (like my own loved ones, who are also controlled by drugs & psychiatry) to be free of these shackles.

    So I’m not picking on you – but just sharing that I believe there is another way besides destroying your organs with the lithium. My beliefs may or may not apply to you.

  • LOL I have a degree in accounting. I don’t think that’s the one you want. Our best assets are making sure everything balances, compiling reports and statistics.

    FINANCE degrees are about interpreting those stats. There may be some accountants who are wizards about seeing “how things fit together” and may be improved, but LOL I’m not one of them!

  • I was reading in Brave New World today. The chapter where the Savage approaches a bunch of Deltas, clamouring for their allotment of Soma. . .

    “It’s poison! You are slaves!” he cries, “Don’t you want to be free?” as he knocks the Soma out of the hands of those distributing it. He throws it out the window, scattering it to the wind –

    And chaos ensues, the people want their poison, they want their slavery, and a riot breaks out…the Savage is arrested, and the Riot Police arrive with spray guns of Soma and Tranquilisers to subdue the agitated crowd. The Synthetic Music Box runs “Anti-Riot Speech Number Two (Medium Strength)” which tells the people,

    “‘My friends, my friends!’…pathetically, with a note of infinitely tender reproach… ‘What is the meaning of this? Why aren’t you all being happy and good together? Happy and good…At peace, at peace.’ …It sank into a whisper and momentarily expired, ‘Oh, I do want you to be happy,’ it began with a yearning earnestness, ‘I do so want you to be good! Please, please be good and . . . ‘ ”


    It’s getting close to this. The devices and phones are the box, and Soma is everywhere. . .

  • Alex speaks of the corrupt system.

    This seems to apply to military, police abuses as well.

    Where there is a pack of people “following orders” from top down to protect corporate interests.

    I know this is paranoid, but I’m beginning to wonder – when we take on the Corporate Masters – what are we in for?

  • Thank you for this anomie!

    I also wonder about the flip side of the coin: if psych drugs affect metabolism (they do), endocrine (they do), autoimmune functions (they do), the gut (they do) – then do they contribute to cancer forming?

    It’s a question which will never be answered, but enquiring minds . . .

  • I agree that psychiatry is a virus – but I would say it has infected more than the medical system.

    it has also infected the courts. The schools. The family. The media. It’s a pretty prevalent virus – might even be a retrovirus, that puts its fingers into every system it possibly can.

    How do you kill a retrovirus? (hint, you can’t, not yet – we haven’t come that far with stem cells yet) We don’t know how – so all we do is “manage” a retrovirus.

    But stop feeding it is a good place to begin.

  • I’m imagining what it is like to shut down a psychotherapist.

    “You realise that your methods are harmful?” (like we’ve been saying since Szasz?)

    “OMG, really? I will stop right now!”

    yeah, right. I like Frank’s perspective that the boycott of all psycho-services is a good place to begin.

  • What business has “marketing and advertising” to do with medicine?

    This is the core nature of the problem!

    Rachel – agree – “He drank the stuff!” because he was told that the rat poison would balance his chemicals. . . lies, coercion, fraud, all of these contribute to the forced nature of psychiatry.

  • “all psychiatry is not forced”

    Is a falsehood.

    If diagnonsense is a lie, if drugging is based on a lie, if there is coercion from family, schools, etc. (Johnny can’t sit still, see a doctor to see if he has ADHD) – then psychiatry is forced.

    Psychiatry which is based on a lie is forced.

  • Thanks for your story, David.

    Taking radical care of yourself is so important – it might even be more important than the taper.

    However, I agree with beckys11 and ebl that a 10% taper is wiser, especially as you get lower in dose.

    Additionally, there are post-withdrawal effects that can knock you around at 6 months, 12 months, even 18 months or more after the drugs are gone, especially if there are stressors. I suspect that this “wave” (as we call it on Surviving Antidepressants) was what drove you back to the Prozac at the 6 months mark.

    I believe (personally, don’t have proof) that the drugs sensitise you for life, and those of us who have been through this gauntlet and come out the other side in “radical self care” – have to be especially vigilant.

    My routine involves a sun walk – just 5 minutes a day. I took up tai chi, and thought – I’ll do that *instead* of the sunwalk – but sure enough, after a year of no sun walk (radical self care – every day – every day – every day – without fail) the black dog was biting at my heels again.

    After just a week of adding the sun walk back in (in addition to my usual physio, tai chi, yoga, meditation & prayer practices), that black dog is a roly poly puppy again. It still has teeth and claws, and if I neglect my practices, it is likely to grow into a menace again.

    So radical self care – so important! Thanks for your emphasis on that. I just downloaded your book.

  • If you are pre-diabetic, you will do better off the drugs. At least that’s my experience.

    By taking control of my mood, health, and well being, I’m still “pre-diabetic” but have not flipped into diabetic, and my blood sugar is lower than it was on the drugs.

    The drugs are very hard on the endocrine system, and if you are on any neuroleptics, they increase the risk of diabetes and metabolic disorder (and even though the research isn’t there – I’d hazard that the antidepressants do, too)

  • Thanks for this Kindredspirit.

    Amongst my friends and family – I am frequently biting my tongue – because I ***know*** how to get them out from under their drug load.

    But “I am not a doctor” so – I might say something once (and be dissed, again).

    A prophetess is always scorned in her hometown (& family and friends).

    And the doctors? They keep doing it. I fear (yes, fear) the time when a condition of mine requires actual treatment by a doctor, whether surgical, procedure, or drugs. At least with drugs, I know how to do the research. Hip replacements? Back surgery? Not so much. Chemotherapy? Radiation? Surgery? This is all scary territory.

    I consider a successful interaction with a doctor as “I fended them off.” e.g., I fended off the cardiologists – they don’t want to see me again for 3 years. . . .

  • The key is written write here, in Robert Whitaker’s own words:

    “There are many individual psychiatrists who are championing the need for change in their field and working in new ways. However, psychiatry, as an institution, has not shown much interest in reflecting on the failures cited above.”

    This is direct evidence that the purpose of psychiatry, entangled with the courts, law, and behaviour – is a means of social control. The institution has too much invested in the power of social control. How will people “control themselves” without psychiatry to do it for them?

    The government needs psychiatry, law enforcement needs psychiatry, corporations need psychiatry, a “well ordered society” needs psychiatry. It’s more than just profit motive, but an entire system of control.

    Because psychiatry’s only true function is social control.

  • Police are raiding drug dealers because:
    1. When they achieve a certain quota in drug arrests, they get the attention of the federal goverment.
    2. This attention results in grants and sales of “retired” US military equipment.
    3. This equipment has to be used for something, so in order to keep the grants coming, they raid for more drugs, and get to use their armor, tanks and door-busting weapons.
    4. ALEC makes sure that the drug laws support this.

  • Haven’t read comments yet, but it’s my understanding that the restrictions on “mentally ill buying guns” was limited to “involuntary committments.” Disability was not a restricting factor. This might be the difference between what Obama said was 75,000 people on the gun buying list, and the million plus folks on disability.

  • You were lucky. They never look at the drugs as the cause of the symptoms.

    Your persistent contact with the Other Worlds might mean that shamanic training will be of value to you.

    I don’t mean to downplay your torment – just want to mention, that they might be valuable, if heeded and harnessed for the good of all.

  • That’s not necessarily true.

    There are numerous cases of doctors – without high mortality rates – but who are writing the prescriptions in question, where the DEA comes in.

    It may not amount to arrest, but it is very discouraging to a practicing physician to have his practice closed while the DEA goes through his records with a fine tooth comb.

    He may be exonerated at the end of the DEA process – and this is happening a lot. Doctors are terrified of this! And as a result, they are avoiding prescribing the drugs in question.

    The threat of DEA audit alone (not just the arrests) is changing the prescribing practices of doctors in general.

    I had a friend in a car accident last week. Cracked his spine. They sent him home with Lyrica.

  • Rachel777 which is funny because – they give us the drugs that make us fat, and then blame us when we get fat. Tell us to “exercise more” when we’re drugged out of our minds, lethargic and anhedonic, and tell us to “eat better” when the drugs make us crave carbs like a Cookie Monster…..but it’s “our fault.”

    Not the fault of the doctors or the drugs.

  • Surviving and Thriving – likewise, as a round, plump female, I get blamed for all my pains, because “I’m fat.” “If only you’d lose weight. . . ”
    (never mind the metabolic problems that were caused by 20 years of psych drugs. . .. )

  • Ultram (tramadol) and Palexia (tapentadol) are called “opiates” by the doctors. They are called “non-addicting” because they don’t get you high like the oxy or vicodin.

    HOWEVER, tramadol is really an SSRI, and tapentadol is really an SNRI. They developed tapentadol because so many people were on SSRI’s that they got serotonin toxicity when they added tramadol.

    There is severe withdrawal from tramadol / tapentadol, but it is irrelevant to the weak opiate action.

    This is because they fiddle your neurotransmitters like psych drugs.

    They should be tapered carefully if used for more than 3 weeks at a time.

    And doctors, in their ignorance, still think of them as “opiates” (the “good kind,” the “nonaddicting” kind, the kind with less street value), and don’t consider checking for interactions with psych drugs.

    I had a friend go into serotonin syndrome because she was on max dose of Pristiq, and then offered tapentadol when she broke her back. She said to me, “I don’t feel so good,” and I asked her what they gave her and said “OMG quit! And call the pharmacy!” Fortunately, she had only been on them a couple of days.

    But = stupid stupid stupid.

    Sometimes I wonder, Someone Else, if Jesus is right, and all doctors are going to hell.

    Contrast with pure opiates, give me 72 hours and (apart from the addictive behaviours, which must also be broken) you can get someone off the opiates in detox.

    Not so, antidepressants (which, like Cymbalta & Lyrica, they also give for pain conditions).

  • As I see it – “tapering strips” are not drastic enough for the DEA requirements that – whoever is on opiates – be limited to equivelency 50 mg ME (morphine equivalent).

    It doesn’t matter if they were on 3x or 10x that – the DEA is arresting doctors and making it challenging for pain patients to get their condition managed.

    I know several patients with chronic pain conditions who have had their doses cut to 1/10th of their former dose, overnight, because of these DEA requirements – or – the doctors fear of them.

    So – tapering strips – are too gradual, and this means that – for a time, the doctor will be prescribing OVER that DEA minimum ME dose, in order to attempt to taper gradually and wisely.

    Perhaps, from a business perspective, it’s better to throw them in crisis and get them addicted to neuroleptics, instead (Abilify being the #1 selling drug in the USA right now).

  • Interesting that this article does not mention the other things they frequently give to addicts: SSRI’s and SNRI’s and neuroleptics – “to reduce cravings,” “to ease transition into ‘normal life'” etc. etc.

    This is done for alcoholics, too. Then, a decade or more later, when the original addiction is “under control,” they realise that quitting alcohol (or opiates) was easy compared to the “safe” drugs that they were given instead.

  • Hey Nijinsky – the Gene Edigio story is amazing (I’m about halfway through the video) thank you for sharing.

    Did he ever lay hands on you? Can you describe what that was like?

    My friend, I don’t think he’s about “demands,” but – learned helplessness. He’s learned that the docs think they can fix him, so he goes to them first. (this is true of a lot of my friends and medical doctors, too – when there is a simpler solution often available).

    The media says, “Ask your doctor,” your peers and social support tell you to “ask your doctor.” One becomes conditioned over a lifetime to “Ask your doctor,” even though that’s not always the best course (and sometimes, as in the case of psychiatry, is a harmful course.)

    He is very dear to my heart, we’ve been friends since 1986, so I wont’ be letting go of the friendship. Instead, it’s an internal letting go, of saying to myself, “Bless your path, dear heart.” I think it’s too late for him to escape, now that he’s lost his brain, as well. If a kindly Doctor Breggin found him, and could help him off the drugs safely, under medical supervision, it would be good.

    But the truth is, these resources are not available to very many people – and the hard core do-it-yourselfers have the wherewithal to be disciplined and careful (as is needed).

    A pleasure to make your acquaintance. Bless your path, too, and may our paths cross again. If you want to get better acquainted by email, you can find me at

  • Here’s the thing, Hermes – neuroleptics are not just for “schizophrenia” anymore.

    They are passing them out like candy for:

    Opiate and alcohol addiction recovery
    Depression (where people don’t respond well to the SSRI class)
    “Bipolar” and related diagnonsense.

    They are pushing the neuroleptics as the “next line of defense” in a world where their “miracle drugs” are not so miraculous.

    When people are rejecting the opiates (addicting) antidepressants (side effects like losing your sexuality, among others) pharma is saying, “BUT WAIT! There’s more! We’ve got these handy neuroleptics that hit on all KINDS of neurotransmitters…..”

    It’s another wave of marketing of questionable “products” and that’s what they are – products. Not medicine. Not healing. Not even a solution. Just a bottom line for the shareholders.

    I think I heard that the neuroleptics are the best sellers and are driving pharma profits now. Abilify is currently the best selling drug in the world. Sigh.

  • The LAI is a slippery slope. Maybe it is different in Finland, but the LAI’s are used in America in “Mental Health Courts” for forced treatment. Forced treatment is easy when they can give a shot and send you on your way for a month, they don’t have to watch you take your pills every day (like they would in incarceration, er, hospital). Same in the prison situation.

    This is why the aripirprozole now has a tracking device in it – to “ensure compliance.”

    This marketing scheme is especially deadly considering how the courts, prisons, and forced treatment can be involved to drive up sales of these newly patented formulations.

  • Thank you Nijinsky
    I have read and re-read your comment over the past 24+ hours, drinking in the learning you are offering me.

    The biggest blessing for me is this: “Maybe just detaching and blessing their path is the answer, because any rational discourse becomes bate for more of a feeling they are being attacked. ”

    Yes, and yes. Blessing their path/s (because I’m speaking of many people, not just this one or that one).

    I’m going to add – because we don’t live in a very kind society – the element of empathy, compassion, kindness.

    I’ll give an example from real life.

    One of my friends is declining again. He says, “It’s a medical issue” and has started self harming again, drinking again, ruminating again, having suicidal ideation, extreme fatigue. He is working in a cafe, about 20 hours a week, despite massive brain damage* from 30 years on the drugs. He has stress from this job, but being a poor American on disability, needs to work. But there is nothing left over for him. He cried to me, saying, “This feels medical! I am going to report these 10 things to my psychiatrist…”

    Fortunately, the psychiatrist is a good one. I was terrified that it would escalate into hospitalisation or further drugging. But the doctor has been treating him for decades now, and knows that a hospital bill or drug change would only increase the stress.

    What the p-doc said was this: “You’ve gained weight. Have you checked on your diabetic / blood sugar status? You cannot keep doing bad things (drinking, etc.) and expect to feel better.” So p-doc advised him to lose weight and start monitoring blood sugar (again – he had full blown diabetes about 10 years ago but embarked on an extreme exercise program – ultra-marathons – and fully recovered = not diabetic until just recently).

    Since the last diabetic episode, my friend developed auto-immune disorder (about 5 years ago), severe cognitive struggles, and damaged eyesight from 30 years on Seroquel (and other drugs)… He has been able to lose weight since developing the Hashis, but at some point, the Seroquel is going to say no.

    My “Shaming voice of righteous indignation,” says, “Well, that’s all fine and well for the p-doc to tell you to lose weight and mind your blood sugar when he’s giving you drugs which induce metabolic disorder and diabetes….Don’t be disappointed if you cannot lose weight this time – I know you’ve done it before, but at some point, your body is just going to say ‘no.'”

    Kindness would stay silent, encourage him in his efforts to stop drinking, quitting smoking, whatever it is that’s “not helping.” (I think Will Hall calls this “Harm Reduction.”) and just listen. Wait. See how it goes. Maybe this time isn’t the time when the body says “there’s only so much you can achieve while drugged.” Maybe he’ll be fine for another 5 years, 10 years, 1 year. My righteous indignation serves no purpose (except to burn at me, and hurt him).

    If, then, this is the time when he can no longer lose weight, no longer control the diabetes (Metformin was mentioned, which is a scary drug to add to neuroleptics!), then I say, with my compassionate voice, “Don’t be so hard on yourself. You’ve had a good run. You know these drugs induce metabolic disorder, and you’ve beaten it before, but maybe this time it’s too much for your body to take. Be kind to yourself, make do with the best you can.”

    Even that will hurt, but there will come a point where he is slamming against a brick wall. I know I will get push back from even this, “There’s diabetes in my family!” (they are all drugged)

    So I bless his path, and pray in sorrow.

    I learned a Buddhist meditation the other night. Breathing in suffering, breathing out peace and calm. I can breathe in my own suffering, or the suffering of another. I did this for him. It may not make him feel any better, but it helped me.

    * a measured 45 point IQ loss! The “brain damage specialist” claims that this is from an automobile accident when age 16, but I have known him since that age, and watched the decline in lock step with the neuroleptic drugs. NOBODY at the brain damage clinic mentioned neuroleptics as a possible contributing factor to this measured, diagnosed brain damage.

  • Madmom this is a brilliant point.

    The folks I know who had “depot” – towards the end of the weeks, would start to flutter around in distress, until they got the shot again.

    I think I’ve seen studies which show that the decline of the depot shot over the last week is equivalent to withdrawal. At the very least, cutting the dose in half for a number of days.

  • When you mention “weaning,” this indicates regular use. Yeah, that’s a no-go.

    It is true that there is a “come down” time, as there is after any “peak experience.”

    Those who are experienced in these matters for entheogentic, noetic and consciousness expanding purposes call this time, “Integration,” and it may be the most important part of the experience. This is where the therapist might be invaluable, because after the amazing feelings, comes all the ruminations and problems, right back at you full force. It is an opportunity. That’s why they call it “Integration.”

    MAPS purposes are not about regular use, but about experiential use – a few sessions, then never again, or maybe occasional use.

    Your drug users forums talk about regular use, and any drug is bad for that. I seem to recall dangers of dehydration with “molly,” and there is also the issue that street “molly” or “E” is only about 30% likely that it is actual MDMA. I’ve also heard about MDMA causing DNA damage to the brain, but that was in the 80’s. and may have been a “reefer madness” scare tactic.

    Comparing street / party / rave use with clinical trials isn’t a very clear comparison.

  • Most of the people writing here are writing about what they have read, not about what they know.

    MDMA can open gateways to expression of feeling, and explore traumas safely.

    However, I’m reluctant to give any tool like this to psychiatrists.

    MAPS has done some good work, however, they are still buying into the “psychiatry is the way to go” model.

    I do not trust that model.

    There is a power variance if I am on a drug, and the practitioner is not on the “trip” with me.

  • PD: “Most of these drugs are ingested voluntarily.”

    No. They are not. When they give the drug to you with the lie that “you will need this for the rest of your life” and “the side effects will be worth the benefits” and “it won’t harm you in the long term”

    Then they are forcing something. Would someone really take that pill if they knew that they may never get off of it again? Or that they might be going down the rapids of prescription and diagnostic cascades? Or that the drug will, in the long run, make them worse?

    Until this is the knowledge of the people (and it is not), then these pills are being forced.

  • Richard –

    You make some excellent points.

    Here’s the thing: I watch my friends and family go underwater when they “take the pills.” Maybe it helps them cope. It doesn’t mean I love them any less, but they take the pills, and I see them go further and further from the shores of community, emotional availablility, and closer to impulsivity, lack of empathy, and inability/disability. I watch them estrange their friends and family “I FEEL FINE!” as they forge their way into this drug-brain way of coping.

    Meanwhile I watch the toxins destroy their digestive system, endocrine system and cognitive function. Is it any wonder I’m standing on the shore jumping up and down and maybe even screaming “NNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!”

    So – okay, yes, I love these people and respect their ill informed choice to take these drugs. But – there is a duty of care of the people giving them out. “Do you know that once you start taking this drug, you may never be able to get off it again?” “Do you know that if your insurance plan or pharmacy changes suppliers of this drug that you might have a withdrawal meltdown?” “Do you know that this can contribute to mysterious long term disorders that we call ‘fibromyalgia,’ ‘chronic fatigue,’ ‘metabolic disorder,’ diabetes, and dementia?” And be sure and be aware that – if you do develop these disorders, it will be blamed on your diagnonsense, or you will be told that the metabolic disorder, diabetes, is your fault, and you need to “lose weight” or “take action” or even take more drugs to treat it? And that “we don’t really know what causes dementia”?

    Sure, I respect my loved ones’ choices to go skydiving, join the military, tightrope walk between skyscrapers, climb mountains, or overtrain their bodies with ultra-marathons. Sometimes they really believe in this – and I watch as they return from Afghanistan “not the same.” Or have a complete endocrine or autoimmune meltdown induced by overtraining. And sometimes these things provide pleasure and amazing excitement. Sometimes creating drama does that, too. But as I’ve aged, I’ve learned that – those things which shorten your life, damage your system, deplete your *mana* (for lack of a better word) – will make you die younger and in much more distress – sooner.

    So – is it shaming them to say, “Don’t do it!!!!” “COME BACK!” “I miss you!!!!” ? ? ?

    I still respect their choices – what choice do I have? The balance is – how do I keep from chewing myself up inside as I watch their inevitable destruction? (note: friends and family, we have the opportunity to watch, over decades, their decline. People on the internets – not so much. People in your life: decades. And the results are visible.)

  • Hey Johnnyb – this is interesting.

    It’s OK for NA to “narcotics shame”
    And It’s okay for AA to “alcohol shame”
    and it’s okay for SA to “sex and porn shame”

    But is this because – people go to these 12-step organisations and surrender to them for “help”?

    And in that surrender, they have to accept that their “unacceptable behaviour” will be shamed?

    What is the role of shame in psychiatric diagnonsense? We go to the p-doc, and he shames us for not being able to hold our emotions together well enough to work, or not having enough oomph to get through the day, or for being argumentative with our spouse, children, etc…and then offers us pills to “fix” these behavioural strategies?

    I may be stepping out of line on this one – I’m trying to expand my connectome and the way I think about this – so this is not necessarily something I believe – just something I’m trying on.

  • Dr. Breggin uses the phrase: spellbinding.

    Drug Spellbinding.

    Psychiatric Spellbinding.

    Stockholm Syndrome is similar – you come to be fond of the people who “took such good care of you” while you were kidnapped and held against your will.

    Sometimes this is dramatic incarceration and forced drugging like Nchurch describes. Sometimes it is subtle like Mother’s Little Helper. “I just need it to get through the day.”

    Sometimes, it’s true – that in order to “adjust” to our toxic society, the Soma is required. Not all of us can leave. Not all of us can afford to live without disability.

    But like Sera said, I’m “just sick of watching people fucking die.” And sick of watching cognitive loss, loss of will, loss of personality, the dehumanising of humans as they take these drugs. I’m sick of watching drugged people shit on their families because they can no longer empathise. They are “surviving” with their drugs, but at what cost?

    Have you ever tried to take junk away from a junkie? That is what I feel like when I discuss the neurotoxic effects of these drugs. I have tried to take junk away from a junkie. And it’s not possible. Only the junkie can choose to leave the junk behind.

    The junkie (and I don’t use this term lightly -though it can also be someone who is addicted to alcohol, or even tobacco – but the addiction is there) will lie, cheat, steal, do whatever it takes to get their junk back. It’s impossible to believe, and it’s hard to trust a junkie, no matter how much you love them.

    How hard is, therefore, it to believe that someone Spellbound by psychiatry, Spellbound by the drugs – will be participating in some self-delusion, therefore?

  • This is overlooking the fact that ***children*** are still wiring their brains.

    When they grow up with drugs as part of their protocol, like food and water, brushing their teeth, doing their homework, saying their prayers – taking their drugs –

    Then their brains are hardwired to these substances. There becomes less choice.

    What you and I experienced in 70’s & 80’s is a different ballgame now.

  • There are a number of much less harmful devices out there. Dr. Bob Becker was castigated for his approach to healing with electricity. I have a Dr. Becker BioTuner, the stimulus is on the ears, and it sets up a gentle current between the ears (brain). It has settings for earth resonance, healing, calming, and energizing. It is very gentle.

    There are other devices which are more invasive, involving pads on the head more like a TENS device. I also use TENS for pain.

    But I don’t trust just anyone with my brain; the only device I would consider is one designed by Dr. Bob Becker.

    There is a discussion of these devices (as they apply to withdrawal symptoms) here:

  • I do know a number of people who –

    – like the psychiatrists whose income depends upon performing psychiatry –

    Their diagnosis and drugging is essential to their income. To walk away is a greater challenge than many of them can face, especially after 30-40 years of being on disability payments, diagnosis and drugs. (including the resulting brain damage)

    it’s sad, but true. And more true all the time, as the poor become poorer, and it takes multiple jobs to live inside, eat food, keep warm, have running water, etc.

  • Here’s the legal problem: all docs prescribe according to “standard of care.”

    Without violation of that “standard of care” (and we all know what that is – diagnose and drug) the ability to press a lawsuit – class action or otherwise – is a challenge.

    Funny how, when we first presented with distress, it was easy to make us “guilty” (diagnosed with “broken brain”)

    But when the harm is done, it is impossible to prove it.

  • I just watched a talk by Daniel Amen about how easy it is to induce brain injury.

    One of his SPECT images was of a boy who fell on his head at age 3, and they wondered why his behaviour at adolescence was so outrageous…embarking on a brain healing program, they were able to recover damaged brain tissue (I’m guessing through brain training, diet, neurofeedback, Amen has a lot of protocols…)

    I wonder, Dr. Breggin, if he might be an ally in this cause to stop the Monarch?

  • I think having read Kay Redfield-Jamison made it easier for me to accept the script when the p-doc gave me lithium.

    I protested – indicating that I had “bipolar depression” not mania, and apparently the lithium is better for the mania, but she wouldn’t hear it, insisting it was good for depression too. (my GP back home in America said, “OMG but it’s got such a narrow therapeutic window!” as in – the diff between “therapeutic” and “toxic” is extremely close.)

    Egads, I became such a cotton-wool-wrapped zombie that all I could think about was ways to end my misery. And adding “antidepressants” didn’t help, either. Thank you Robert Whitaker, Joanna Moncrieff, Peter Breggin, Will Hall, and Surviving Antidepressants for showing me the truth – and that there was a way out, and that I could live life again.

  • Places with natural lithium in the water have generally placid and peaceful populations. Less violence, folks get along better. Less “mental distress” in general.

    But there are maths involved. I would have to drink 1000 litres of natural lithium water to approach the dose that I was on for “bipolar disorder.”

    When it was added to 7-Up people started having kidney failure. It got removed. I don’t know the levels at which it was added to the 7-Up (proprietary information).

    It depends on if they are microdosing (which there is some science to support) or “therapeutic” dosing, which is outrageous.

    I lost my thyroid and got diabetes insipidus. My kidneys haven’t failed, but they are fussy, and I must drink constantly (and add electrolytes a few times a week), even though I’ve been off the lithium for 3 years now.

  • Ron, I often question my own ability – as a friend – to keep my friends from being dependant upon me.

    Certainly, when they call or text, they are in distress, and by the time we’re done, they’ve settled, have a plan of action, and feel better.

    But I keep asking myself: how can they do this for themselves, without me?

    Is it cruel to say “solve it yourself?” Or “talk to your therapist tomorrow?” Or is it kind to show them the way? And hope without hope that next time, they will reach for the answers alone, and without my assistance?

  • This is a beautiful expression Penelope!

    I was hearing a meditation teacher tell a story about what it’s like to meditate. “Why don’t you take up meditation, you’ll feel better!”

    So the student starts to meditate, and is consumed with rage, and tears, and all of the issues that had been stuffed down over the years. He went back to the teacher, and accused, “You said this would make me feel better!”

    “Yes!” said the meditation teacher. You’ll feel sorrow better, feel anger better, feel all of your feelings better when you meditate!”

  • I agree – it is exceedingly rare that a doctor – a psychiatrist? – would recommend “Anatomy” to a patient.

    Please, can you name your doctor? At, we are always looking for doctors who have a clue, anywhere in the world.

    Your doctor not only had you read “Anatomy,” but also tapered you at a sensible rate. It’s the first I’ve heard of it. At SA, the member usually has to plead with their doctor to do it sensibly slowly, and the doctor pooh-poohs and resists. That is what happens – well, all the time (until I read your story, which is different).

  • OH EFF. And here I have been saying things like, “You’d be better off going to a minister than a psychiatrist.”

    Sounds like the same abuse of power, as SomeoneElse has been pointing out. Again, bad apples? Or is it more common than we believe?

    Thank you for sharing your Truth.

  • I’ve been waiting to hear this. There must be a naturalistic way to study autistic children and their mothers to see what antidepressants and other drugs the mothers were on.

    But golly no, autism is a “natural variation of the human condition,” and we cannot discuss this with them, lest the snowflakes melt.

    Chiro John Bergman calls it (correctly) a neurological disorder. And antidepressants are not – like rasselas.redux states – the only factor. Just like vaccines are not. Or glyphosate.

    Likewise when I want to ask the people in the asexual forum – how many of you had mothers on antidepressants? Or how many of you were exposed to antidepressants around puberty or shortly thereafter? I ask the questions and get booted out of the forum, because “asexuality is a normal variation of the human condition.”

    Kind of like madness. It is, in a sense. But it’s like there’s something else going on, too.

    The mice study points to it, but Sylvain Rousselot nails it when he says, “That’s okay, though, we’ve got toxic drugs to fix that. . . “

  • Forgive me for interjecting, but Richard, the “ultra left” wants treatment for all…I don’t think that banishing psychiatry or even forced treatment is on the agenda for the “ultra left.”

    The “ultra left” wants to be sure that everyone has the opportunity to seek treatment (or, often, “for their own good” forced treatment.)

    So I’m not sure what you mean by “ultra left”

    Psychiatry is no longer a left/right issue (was OldHead saying something like that?)…but a for/against issue.