Thursday, August 22, 2019

Comments by JanCarol

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  • That’s not necessarily true.

    There are numerous cases of doctors – without high mortality rates – but who are writing the prescriptions in question, where the DEA comes in.

    It may not amount to arrest, but it is very discouraging to a practicing physician to have his practice closed while the DEA goes through his records with a fine tooth comb.

    He may be exonerated at the end of the DEA process – and this is happening a lot. Doctors are terrified of this! And as a result, they are avoiding prescribing the drugs in question.

    The threat of DEA audit alone (not just the arrests) is changing the prescribing practices of doctors in general.

    I had a friend in a car accident last week. Cracked his spine. They sent him home with Lyrica.

  • Rachel777 which is funny because – they give us the drugs that make us fat, and then blame us when we get fat. Tell us to “exercise more” when we’re drugged out of our minds, lethargic and anhedonic, and tell us to “eat better” when the drugs make us crave carbs like a Cookie Monster…..but it’s “our fault.”

    Not the fault of the doctors or the drugs.

  • Surviving and Thriving – likewise, as a round, plump female, I get blamed for all my pains, because “I’m fat.” “If only you’d lose weight. . . ”
    (never mind the metabolic problems that were caused by 20 years of psych drugs. . .. )

  • Ultram (tramadol) and Palexia (tapentadol) are called “opiates” by the doctors. They are called “non-addicting” because they don’t get you high like the oxy or vicodin.

    HOWEVER, tramadol is really an SSRI, and tapentadol is really an SNRI. They developed tapentadol because so many people were on SSRI’s that they got serotonin toxicity when they added tramadol.

    There is severe withdrawal from tramadol / tapentadol, but it is irrelevant to the weak opiate action.

    This is because they fiddle your neurotransmitters like psych drugs.

    They should be tapered carefully if used for more than 3 weeks at a time.

    And doctors, in their ignorance, still think of them as “opiates” (the “good kind,” the “nonaddicting” kind, the kind with less street value), and don’t consider checking for interactions with psych drugs.

    I had a friend go into serotonin syndrome because she was on max dose of Pristiq, and then offered tapentadol when she broke her back. She said to me, “I don’t feel so good,” and I asked her what they gave her and said “OMG quit! And call the pharmacy!” Fortunately, she had only been on them a couple of days.

    But = stupid stupid stupid.

    Sometimes I wonder, Someone Else, if Jesus is right, and all doctors are going to hell.

    Contrast with pure opiates, give me 72 hours and (apart from the addictive behaviours, which must also be broken) you can get someone off the opiates in detox.

    Not so, antidepressants (which, like Cymbalta & Lyrica, they also give for pain conditions).

  • As I see it – “tapering strips” are not drastic enough for the DEA requirements that – whoever is on opiates – be limited to equivelency 50 mg ME (morphine equivalent).

    It doesn’t matter if they were on 3x or 10x that – the DEA is arresting doctors and making it challenging for pain patients to get their condition managed.

    I know several patients with chronic pain conditions who have had their doses cut to 1/10th of their former dose, overnight, because of these DEA requirements – or – the doctors fear of them.

    So – tapering strips – are too gradual, and this means that – for a time, the doctor will be prescribing OVER that DEA minimum ME dose, in order to attempt to taper gradually and wisely.

    Perhaps, from a business perspective, it’s better to throw them in crisis and get them addicted to neuroleptics, instead (Abilify being the #1 selling drug in the USA right now).

  • Interesting that this article does not mention the other things they frequently give to addicts: SSRI’s and SNRI’s and neuroleptics – “to reduce cravings,” “to ease transition into ‘normal life'” etc. etc.

    This is done for alcoholics, too. Then, a decade or more later, when the original addiction is “under control,” they realise that quitting alcohol (or opiates) was easy compared to the “safe” drugs that they were given instead.

  • Hey Nijinsky – the Gene Edigio story is amazing (I’m about halfway through the video) thank you for sharing.

    Did he ever lay hands on you? Can you describe what that was like?

    My friend, I don’t think he’s about “demands,” but – learned helplessness. He’s learned that the docs think they can fix him, so he goes to them first. (this is true of a lot of my friends and medical doctors, too – when there is a simpler solution often available).

    The media says, “Ask your doctor,” your peers and social support tell you to “ask your doctor.” One becomes conditioned over a lifetime to “Ask your doctor,” even though that’s not always the best course (and sometimes, as in the case of psychiatry, is a harmful course.)

    He is very dear to my heart, we’ve been friends since 1986, so I wont’ be letting go of the friendship. Instead, it’s an internal letting go, of saying to myself, “Bless your path, dear heart.” I think it’s too late for him to escape, now that he’s lost his brain, as well. If a kindly Doctor Breggin found him, and could help him off the drugs safely, under medical supervision, it would be good.

    But the truth is, these resources are not available to very many people – and the hard core do-it-yourselfers have the wherewithal to be disciplined and careful (as is needed).

    A pleasure to make your acquaintance. Bless your path, too, and may our paths cross again. If you want to get better acquainted by email, you can find me at https://shamanexplorations.com

  • Here’s the thing, Hermes – neuroleptics are not just for “schizophrenia” anymore.

    They are passing them out like candy for:

    Opiate and alcohol addiction recovery
    Depression (where people don’t respond well to the SSRI class)
    “Bipolar” and related diagnonsense.

    They are pushing the neuroleptics as the “next line of defense” in a world where their “miracle drugs” are not so miraculous.

    When people are rejecting the opiates (addicting) antidepressants (side effects like losing your sexuality, among others) pharma is saying, “BUT WAIT! There’s more! We’ve got these handy neuroleptics that hit on all KINDS of neurotransmitters…..”

    It’s another wave of marketing of questionable “products” and that’s what they are – products. Not medicine. Not healing. Not even a solution. Just a bottom line for the shareholders.

    I think I heard that the neuroleptics are the best sellers and are driving pharma profits now. Abilify is currently the best selling drug in the world. Sigh.

  • The LAI is a slippery slope. Maybe it is different in Finland, but the LAI’s are used in America in “Mental Health Courts” for forced treatment. Forced treatment is easy when they can give a shot and send you on your way for a month, they don’t have to watch you take your pills every day (like they would in incarceration, er, hospital). Same in the prison situation.

    This is why the aripirprozole now has a tracking device in it – to “ensure compliance.”

    This marketing scheme is especially deadly considering how the courts, prisons, and forced treatment can be involved to drive up sales of these newly patented formulations.

  • Thank you Nijinsky
    I have read and re-read your comment over the past 24+ hours, drinking in the learning you are offering me.

    The biggest blessing for me is this: “Maybe just detaching and blessing their path is the answer, because any rational discourse becomes bate for more of a feeling they are being attacked. ”

    Yes, and yes. Blessing their path/s (because I’m speaking of many people, not just this one or that one).

    I’m going to add – because we don’t live in a very kind society – the element of empathy, compassion, kindness.

    I’ll give an example from real life.

    One of my friends is declining again. He says, “It’s a medical issue” and has started self harming again, drinking again, ruminating again, having suicidal ideation, extreme fatigue. He is working in a cafe, about 20 hours a week, despite massive brain damage* from 30 years on the drugs. He has stress from this job, but being a poor American on disability, needs to work. But there is nothing left over for him. He cried to me, saying, “This feels medical! I am going to report these 10 things to my psychiatrist…”

    Fortunately, the psychiatrist is a good one. I was terrified that it would escalate into hospitalisation or further drugging. But the doctor has been treating him for decades now, and knows that a hospital bill or drug change would only increase the stress.

    What the p-doc said was this: “You’ve gained weight. Have you checked on your diabetic / blood sugar status? You cannot keep doing bad things (drinking, etc.) and expect to feel better.” So p-doc advised him to lose weight and start monitoring blood sugar (again – he had full blown diabetes about 10 years ago but embarked on an extreme exercise program – ultra-marathons – and fully recovered = not diabetic until just recently).

    Since the last diabetic episode, my friend developed auto-immune disorder (about 5 years ago), severe cognitive struggles, and damaged eyesight from 30 years on Seroquel (and other drugs)… He has been able to lose weight since developing the Hashis, but at some point, the Seroquel is going to say no.

    My “Shaming voice of righteous indignation,” says, “Well, that’s all fine and well for the p-doc to tell you to lose weight and mind your blood sugar when he’s giving you drugs which induce metabolic disorder and diabetes….Don’t be disappointed if you cannot lose weight this time – I know you’ve done it before, but at some point, your body is just going to say ‘no.'”

    Kindness would stay silent, encourage him in his efforts to stop drinking, quitting smoking, whatever it is that’s “not helping.” (I think Will Hall calls this “Harm Reduction.”) and just listen. Wait. See how it goes. Maybe this time isn’t the time when the body says “there’s only so much you can achieve while drugged.” Maybe he’ll be fine for another 5 years, 10 years, 1 year. My righteous indignation serves no purpose (except to burn at me, and hurt him).

    If, then, this is the time when he can no longer lose weight, no longer control the diabetes (Metformin was mentioned, which is a scary drug to add to neuroleptics!), then I say, with my compassionate voice, “Don’t be so hard on yourself. You’ve had a good run. You know these drugs induce metabolic disorder, and you’ve beaten it before, but maybe this time it’s too much for your body to take. Be kind to yourself, make do with the best you can.”

    Even that will hurt, but there will come a point where he is slamming against a brick wall. I know I will get push back from even this, “There’s diabetes in my family!” (they are all drugged)

    So I bless his path, and pray in sorrow.

    I learned a Buddhist meditation the other night. Breathing in suffering, breathing out peace and calm. I can breathe in my own suffering, or the suffering of another. I did this for him. It may not make him feel any better, but it helped me.

    * a measured 45 point IQ loss! The “brain damage specialist” claims that this is from an automobile accident when age 16, but I have known him since that age, and watched the decline in lock step with the neuroleptic drugs. NOBODY at the brain damage clinic mentioned neuroleptics as a possible contributing factor to this measured, diagnosed brain damage.

  • Madmom this is a brilliant point.

    The folks I know who had “depot” – towards the end of the weeks, would start to flutter around in distress, until they got the shot again.

    I think I’ve seen studies which show that the decline of the depot shot over the last week is equivalent to withdrawal. At the very least, cutting the dose in half for a number of days.

  • When you mention “weaning,” this indicates regular use. Yeah, that’s a no-go.

    It is true that there is a “come down” time, as there is after any “peak experience.”

    Those who are experienced in these matters for entheogentic, noetic and consciousness expanding purposes call this time, “Integration,” and it may be the most important part of the experience. This is where the therapist might be invaluable, because after the amazing feelings, comes all the ruminations and problems, right back at you full force. It is an opportunity. That’s why they call it “Integration.”

    MAPS purposes are not about regular use, but about experiential use – a few sessions, then never again, or maybe occasional use.

    Your drug users forums talk about regular use, and any drug is bad for that. I seem to recall dangers of dehydration with “molly,” and there is also the issue that street “molly” or “E” is only about 30% likely that it is actual MDMA. I’ve also heard about MDMA causing DNA damage to the brain, but that was in the 80’s. and may have been a “reefer madness” scare tactic.

    Comparing street / party / rave use with clinical trials isn’t a very clear comparison.

  • Most of the people writing here are writing about what they have read, not about what they know.

    MDMA can open gateways to expression of feeling, and explore traumas safely.

    However, I’m reluctant to give any tool like this to psychiatrists.

    MAPS has done some good work, however, they are still buying into the “psychiatry is the way to go” model.

    I do not trust that model.

    There is a power variance if I am on a drug, and the practitioner is not on the “trip” with me.

  • PD: “Most of these drugs are ingested voluntarily.”

    No. They are not. When they give the drug to you with the lie that “you will need this for the rest of your life” and “the side effects will be worth the benefits” and “it won’t harm you in the long term”

    Then they are forcing something. Would someone really take that pill if they knew that they may never get off of it again? Or that they might be going down the rapids of prescription and diagnostic cascades? Or that the drug will, in the long run, make them worse?

    Until this is the knowledge of the people (and it is not), then these pills are being forced.

  • Richard –

    You make some excellent points.

    Here’s the thing: I watch my friends and family go underwater when they “take the pills.” Maybe it helps them cope. It doesn’t mean I love them any less, but they take the pills, and I see them go further and further from the shores of community, emotional availablility, and closer to impulsivity, lack of empathy, and inability/disability. I watch them estrange their friends and family “I FEEL FINE!” as they forge their way into this drug-brain way of coping.

    Meanwhile I watch the toxins destroy their digestive system, endocrine system and cognitive function. Is it any wonder I’m standing on the shore jumping up and down and maybe even screaming “NNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!”

    So – okay, yes, I love these people and respect their ill informed choice to take these drugs. But – there is a duty of care of the people giving them out. “Do you know that once you start taking this drug, you may never be able to get off it again?” “Do you know that if your insurance plan or pharmacy changes suppliers of this drug that you might have a withdrawal meltdown?” “Do you know that this can contribute to mysterious long term disorders that we call ‘fibromyalgia,’ ‘chronic fatigue,’ ‘metabolic disorder,’ diabetes, and dementia?” And be sure and be aware that – if you do develop these disorders, it will be blamed on your diagnonsense, or you will be told that the metabolic disorder, diabetes, is your fault, and you need to “lose weight” or “take action” or even take more drugs to treat it? And that “we don’t really know what causes dementia”?

    Sure, I respect my loved ones’ choices to go skydiving, join the military, tightrope walk between skyscrapers, climb mountains, or overtrain their bodies with ultra-marathons. Sometimes they really believe in this – and I watch as they return from Afghanistan “not the same.” Or have a complete endocrine or autoimmune meltdown induced by overtraining. And sometimes these things provide pleasure and amazing excitement. Sometimes creating drama does that, too. But as I’ve aged, I’ve learned that – those things which shorten your life, damage your system, deplete your *mana* (for lack of a better word) – will make you die younger and in much more distress – sooner.

    So – is it shaming them to say, “Don’t do it!!!!” “COME BACK!” “I miss you!!!!” ? ? ?

    I still respect their choices – what choice do I have? The balance is – how do I keep from chewing myself up inside as I watch their inevitable destruction? (note: friends and family, we have the opportunity to watch, over decades, their decline. People on the internets – not so much. People in your life: decades. And the results are visible.)

  • Hey Johnnyb – this is interesting.

    It’s OK for NA to “narcotics shame”
    And It’s okay for AA to “alcohol shame”
    and it’s okay for SA to “sex and porn shame”

    But is this because – people go to these 12-step organisations and surrender to them for “help”?

    And in that surrender, they have to accept that their “unacceptable behaviour” will be shamed?

    What is the role of shame in psychiatric diagnonsense? We go to the p-doc, and he shames us for not being able to hold our emotions together well enough to work, or not having enough oomph to get through the day, or for being argumentative with our spouse, children, etc…and then offers us pills to “fix” these behavioural strategies?

    I may be stepping out of line on this one – I’m trying to expand my connectome and the way I think about this – so this is not necessarily something I believe – just something I’m trying on.

  • Dr. Breggin uses the phrase: spellbinding.

    Drug Spellbinding.

    Psychiatric Spellbinding.

    Stockholm Syndrome is similar – you come to be fond of the people who “took such good care of you” while you were kidnapped and held against your will.

    Sometimes this is dramatic incarceration and forced drugging like Nchurch describes. Sometimes it is subtle like Mother’s Little Helper. “I just need it to get through the day.”

    Sometimes, it’s true – that in order to “adjust” to our toxic society, the Soma is required. Not all of us can leave. Not all of us can afford to live without disability.

    But like Sera said, I’m “just sick of watching people fucking die.” And sick of watching cognitive loss, loss of will, loss of personality, the dehumanising of humans as they take these drugs. I’m sick of watching drugged people shit on their families because they can no longer empathise. They are “surviving” with their drugs, but at what cost?

    Have you ever tried to take junk away from a junkie? That is what I feel like when I discuss the neurotoxic effects of these drugs. I have tried to take junk away from a junkie. And it’s not possible. Only the junkie can choose to leave the junk behind.

    The junkie (and I don’t use this term lightly -though it can also be someone who is addicted to alcohol, or even tobacco – but the addiction is there) will lie, cheat, steal, do whatever it takes to get their junk back. It’s impossible to believe, and it’s hard to trust a junkie, no matter how much you love them.

    How hard is, therefore, it to believe that someone Spellbound by psychiatry, Spellbound by the drugs – will be participating in some self-delusion, therefore?

  • This is overlooking the fact that ***children*** are still wiring their brains.

    When they grow up with drugs as part of their protocol, like food and water, brushing their teeth, doing their homework, saying their prayers – taking their drugs –

    Then their brains are hardwired to these substances. There becomes less choice.

    What you and I experienced in 70’s & 80’s is a different ballgame now.

  • There are a number of much less harmful devices out there. Dr. Bob Becker was castigated for his approach to healing with electricity. I have a Dr. Becker BioTuner, the stimulus is on the ears, and it sets up a gentle current between the ears (brain). It has settings for earth resonance, healing, calming, and energizing. It is very gentle.

    There are other devices which are more invasive, involving pads on the head more like a TENS device. I also use TENS for pain.

    But I don’t trust just anyone with my brain; the only device I would consider is one designed by Dr. Bob Becker.

    There is a discussion of these devices (as they apply to withdrawal symptoms) here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/4829-alpha-stim-fisher-wallace-sota-biotuner-pons-and-similar-devices/

  • I do know a number of people who –

    – like the psychiatrists whose income depends upon performing psychiatry –

    Their diagnosis and drugging is essential to their income. To walk away is a greater challenge than many of them can face, especially after 30-40 years of being on disability payments, diagnosis and drugs. (including the resulting brain damage)

    it’s sad, but true. And more true all the time, as the poor become poorer, and it takes multiple jobs to live inside, eat food, keep warm, have running water, etc.

  • Here’s the legal problem: all docs prescribe according to “standard of care.”

    Without violation of that “standard of care” (and we all know what that is – diagnose and drug) the ability to press a lawsuit – class action or otherwise – is a challenge.

    Funny how, when we first presented with distress, it was easy to make us “guilty” (diagnosed with “broken brain”)

    But when the harm is done, it is impossible to prove it.

  • I just watched a talk by Daniel Amen about how easy it is to induce brain injury.

    One of his SPECT images was of a boy who fell on his head at age 3, and they wondered why his behaviour at adolescence was so outrageous…embarking on a brain healing program, they were able to recover damaged brain tissue (I’m guessing through brain training, diet, neurofeedback, Amen has a lot of protocols…)

    I wonder, Dr. Breggin, if he might be an ally in this cause to stop the Monarch?

  • I think having read Kay Redfield-Jamison made it easier for me to accept the script when the p-doc gave me lithium.

    I protested – indicating that I had “bipolar depression” not mania, and apparently the lithium is better for the mania, but she wouldn’t hear it, insisting it was good for depression too. (my GP back home in America said, “OMG but it’s got such a narrow therapeutic window!” as in – the diff between “therapeutic” and “toxic” is extremely close.)

    Egads, I became such a cotton-wool-wrapped zombie that all I could think about was ways to end my misery. And adding “antidepressants” didn’t help, either. Thank you Robert Whitaker, Joanna Moncrieff, Peter Breggin, Will Hall, and Surviving Antidepressants for showing me the truth – and that there was a way out, and that I could live life again.

  • Places with natural lithium in the water have generally placid and peaceful populations. Less violence, folks get along better. Less “mental distress” in general.

    But there are maths involved. I would have to drink 1000 litres of natural lithium water to approach the dose that I was on for “bipolar disorder.”

    When it was added to 7-Up people started having kidney failure. It got removed. I don’t know the levels at which it was added to the 7-Up (proprietary information).

    It depends on if they are microdosing (which there is some science to support) or “therapeutic” dosing, which is outrageous.

    I lost my thyroid and got diabetes insipidus. My kidneys haven’t failed, but they are fussy, and I must drink constantly (and add electrolytes a few times a week), even though I’ve been off the lithium for 3 years now.

  • Ron, I often question my own ability – as a friend – to keep my friends from being dependant upon me.

    Certainly, when they call or text, they are in distress, and by the time we’re done, they’ve settled, have a plan of action, and feel better.

    But I keep asking myself: how can they do this for themselves, without me?

    Is it cruel to say “solve it yourself?” Or “talk to your therapist tomorrow?” Or is it kind to show them the way? And hope without hope that next time, they will reach for the answers alone, and without my assistance?

  • This is a beautiful expression Penelope!

    I was hearing a meditation teacher tell a story about what it’s like to meditate. “Why don’t you take up meditation, you’ll feel better!”

    So the student starts to meditate, and is consumed with rage, and tears, and all of the issues that had been stuffed down over the years. He went back to the teacher, and accused, “You said this would make me feel better!”

    “Yes!” said the meditation teacher. You’ll feel sorrow better, feel anger better, feel all of your feelings better when you meditate!”

  • I agree – it is exceedingly rare that a doctor – a psychiatrist? – would recommend “Anatomy” to a patient.

    Please, can you name your doctor? At http://www.survivingantidepressants.org, we are always looking for doctors who have a clue, anywhere in the world.

    Your doctor not only had you read “Anatomy,” but also tapered you at a sensible rate. It’s the first I’ve heard of it. At SA, the member usually has to plead with their doctor to do it sensibly slowly, and the doctor pooh-poohs and resists. That is what happens – well, all the time (until I read your story, which is different).

  • OH EFF. And here I have been saying things like, “You’d be better off going to a minister than a psychiatrist.”

    Sounds like the same abuse of power, as SomeoneElse has been pointing out. Again, bad apples? Or is it more common than we believe?

    Thank you for sharing your Truth.

  • I’ve been waiting to hear this. There must be a naturalistic way to study autistic children and their mothers to see what antidepressants and other drugs the mothers were on.

    But golly no, autism is a “natural variation of the human condition,” and we cannot discuss this with them, lest the snowflakes melt.

    Chiro John Bergman calls it (correctly) a neurological disorder. And antidepressants are not – like rasselas.redux states – the only factor. Just like vaccines are not. Or glyphosate.

    Likewise when I want to ask the people in the asexual forum – how many of you had mothers on antidepressants? Or how many of you were exposed to antidepressants around puberty or shortly thereafter? I ask the questions and get booted out of the forum, because “asexuality is a normal variation of the human condition.”

    Kind of like madness. It is, in a sense. But it’s like there’s something else going on, too.

    The mice study points to it, but Sylvain Rousselot nails it when he says, “That’s okay, though, we’ve got toxic drugs to fix that. . . “

  • Forgive me for interjecting, but Richard, the “ultra left” wants treatment for all…I don’t think that banishing psychiatry or even forced treatment is on the agenda for the “ultra left.”

    The “ultra left” wants to be sure that everyone has the opportunity to seek treatment (or, often, “for their own good” forced treatment.)

    So I’m not sure what you mean by “ultra left”

    Psychiatry is no longer a left/right issue (was OldHead saying something like that?)…but a for/against issue.

  • Thanks for your comment, Dr. Coleman.

    I could argue that the entire medical system is not voluntary, but based on marketing of for-profit medicine.

    Overactive bladder? Ask your doctor…

    …and the doctors are frequently the target of these marketing campaigns: “Does your patient have high cholesterol?” (when there is no evidence that lowering cholesterol is always a good thing.) HPV vaccination is an excellent example of marketing to doctors and patients for an intervention which may do more harm than good.

    One goes to a doctor, the doctor is almost required to intervene, whether that is drugs, procedure, device, etc. All of which are profit based.

    But this is not the forum for that discussion.

  • LC: ” help non-psychiatrist physicians help their genuine (voluntary) patients”

    Except that – the whole diagnosis (diag-nonsense) and drugging basis of psychiatry – which has leeched into GP practice – is based upon fiction and marketing.

    There are **no** voluntary patients. There are unhappy, suffering patients who have been told by the TV, their family, their schools, their workplace, and their inability to function in our sick, high pressure, overdriven society – to “ask your doctor.”

    This is not voluntary, any more than the ball-and-chain effect of “devices” is voluntary. They know how neuro-advertise, and adding the peer pressure and the herd mentality of societal sentiment, ensures that people will “voluntarily” “seek treatment.”

    I heard yesterday of more teen suicides in Florida in the wake of the traumatic shooting about a year ago. These teens were “receiving treatment” for “PTSD.” Did they know that the “treatment” increases the risk of suicide? Did the “treatment” work to prevent their suicides?

    They only did what society and TV say to do, “I can’t sleep, I keep seeing the event over and over, I keep thinking how I’ve failed, I cannot adjust to this world where my best friends can be shot by a mad gunman…so I will tell my doctor, because that’s what you do.”

    That is not voluntary treatment, and as we know here at MIA, it is based on a lie and a long range neuromarketing plan.

  • I hear you Melody, it’s one of the greatest battles we face.

    (this is a generic conversation that happens almost every day)

    Member: “I went off my drugs, I felt great for a few weeks but now I feel awful! What do I do?”

    SA: “Reinstate a tiny amount of the drug, hold for a month or two, and then taper from there.”

    Member: “But I’m *free* of the drug! Why would I want to do that?”

    SA: ” because you are having symptoms, which means you are NOT free of the drug. . . ”

    OR also common:

    Member: “I cold turkeyed a month ago, and I feel great”

    SA: “You are in danger, please reinstate a tiny amount of the drug”

    Member: “But I feel great, why would I want to do that?”

    SA (banging head): “Oh dear. . . ”

    I can count on one hand the number of people who reinstated and prevented the BIG CRASH that frequently happens after a cold turkey.

    But I cannot count the number of people who simply couldn’t believe us because they had a doctor whispering in their ear, their family pressuring them, and – the lies that are spread about these drugs. Then, 6 months later, they return to SA –

    Member: “I’m all kinds of messed up! Help!”

    SA: “Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall. Humpty Dumpty had a great fall. All the Kings Horses and All the SA mods, couldn’t put Humpty together again.”

    We try, but it’s a challenge.

  • Ach! Starr! That’s such a good goal!

    But here’s the thing – it’s not just psych!

    When I check into hospital, they put me down as “obese” and then give me these high carb meals with artificial sweeteners. I have to tell them – NO bread, no pasta, and NO TOXIC SWEETENERS (they are bad for brain, too). Even so, they keep trying to bring me cookies and toast and porridge. . .

    As someone who is doing Keto, you’ll understand that all hospital diets are – not healthy.

    Cooking lessons (the way Jamie Oliver did for the school cafeterias) would be awesome!!!!

  • Also – I noted a NOW supplement offered on your site – Calcium / Magnesium.

    1. Magnesium Oxide does not offer any benefit. You would do as well to go outside and chew on some rocks, to get the magnesium from them.
    2. Calcium and Magnesium compete for metabolism. They are to be taken separately in order to get full benefit. I don’t know why these vitamin companies insist on bundling them together ($$$) but they do.

    I do use and recommend many NOW products, but a cal/mag combination is never recommended. And Mag oxide is not recommended, either. This product does contain some citrate and ascorbate, but that would likely be “eaten” by the calcium in the product.

    You can learn about this and other recommended supplements (we recommend Magnesium and Fish Oil for withdrawal and brain rebuilding – but not much else) at http://www.survivingantidepressants.org

    If you do join the site, and use any of our information on your website, please give credit for all of the research and hard work our founder, AltoStrata, has done.

  • camilleisreal – difficulty getting off of antidepressants can be aided by v-e-r-y slow tapering.

    http://www.survivingantidepressants.org has a number of protocols for a number of drugs.

    I saw discussion of “half life” here in another comment.

    Half life only determines how many doses per day you take while tapering. Shorter half life – like Paxil, Effexor IR (not the extended release, which comes in beads), and Xanax – means that you must dose several times a day in order to keep steady state. Half life does **not** have anything to do with tapering speed. Tapering speed is determined by your neurotransmitter repair – it takes about 3 weeks to adjust after any taper, then we wait a week to taper again. Tapering speed is the same – because it is brain based, not drug based.

    Tapering also does **not** have anything to do with fast or slow metabolism. Fast metabolism just means that the doctors add more and more drugs and raise the doses to try and get an effect. Hence, fast metabolisers are more likely to be polydrugged and on the highest doses available. This does not mean they can go faster getting off – because – how fast you metabolise a drug has nothing to do with how quickly your neurotransmitters adjust to a drug, it has to do with the organic rate of healing in the brain.

    On some people a broken leg *might* heal a little more quickly than on others. But for most, there is about a 6-10 week healing time. It is the same for neurotransmitters of the brain. They adjust at the rate we heal, which seems to be about 3 weeks in between tapering cuts.

    Getting off is the same for fast and slow metabolism. Better safe than sorry.

  • Keeping in mind that 40% of the population has methylation issues, and the folic acid might not be appropriate for them. . .

    At a quick glance I was unable to see what the breakdown of nutrients was, as well. How much folate? Was it methylfolate (easier for people with methylation issues)? How much magnesium? A pittance or a valuable amount? What form of magnesium? (if it is mag oxide, it’s like chewing rocks to get the minerals out) Many combination supplements put a spit of each ingredient in and claim “synergy” and “proprietary” but there’s not enough of anything to really make a difference.

    I see it is on the side of the box – so why don’t they provide it online? I tried iHerb and Amazon with no luck. (Amazon had the brand, but not that product.)

    I would bet that eating oily fish, avocado, and coconut oil would provide similar benefits. At least it’s not a $50 bottle, like so many “proprietary” combinations.

  • Hey Julie – all of the people whose stories I told are in the USA. (mostly Midwest – is it harder to be cottage by region?)

    Australia supports its people a little bit better. You don’t have to be “disabled” to get a pension – just be poor, old, or be a single Mum.

    In the USA I worry about people dying without medical care, because they are below the line, below the radar. Here I worry about people going to the doctor TOO much!

    A good case for Universal Income … (but that is beyond the scope of this forum!)

    Kindred – my intentional community would include people from Israel, France, Pacific Northwest USA, Australia, UK, Belgium, Midwest USA. Is there a cave that connects beneath all these continents? My point being – the intentional community with people you know & want to hang with – might not be in a single locale. Got an uninhabited island somewhere in the Pacific?

  • Not the kind of communities I meant, Oldhead.

    I was thinking more organically – we like each other, we have common goals. I have a job baking bread, but you have a gift in childcare – how about I work while you watch the kids?

    This becomes more important as we age. When I was young I fantasised that all my friends would be in the “oldies home” with me. As I rapidly approach that situation I’m realising that is not only unlikely, but damn near impossible. I will be paddling upstream as fast as I can to avoid any sort of “care.”

    Churches are often organic communities. There are organic communities online – but are not practical in the day-to-day. I saw a “prepare for self sufficiency” meeting, but couldn’t get my hubby to go – this was a collection of people where one would grow oranges, while the other would raise chickens, another doing aquaculture, and all of us purifying our own water from our rainwater tanks. Together we could all be independent of the system, and survive its immanent collapse. Community.

    I’m not talking about “care!” I will probably take my own life before I submit to it. (Sssssh! Forbidden topic!)

  • Julie: “Some people do manage to sell on Ebay or Etsy. I knew a guy who cut hair on the side. Massage is not hard to learn. Getting paid gigs as a musician (weddings, etc). Sewing clothes, selling your art (photography is likely the one visual art that could be very profitable) or selling your psych drugs. Fortune-telling (i.e. “readings,”) if you can convince other that this is valid, will be instant money. ”

    First, I could not, with a clear conscience, sell psych drugs. “Right Livelihood” is a principle I have to live by, and causing harm to others is not in that department. I would sell street drugs before I would sell psych drugs, even though Gabapentin has street value now. (and it’s not easy to make a living selling street drugs – the profits increase as the harm and danger increase)

    Next – all my life, I’ve known people whose goal was to be “off grid,” and utilised the methods you list to try and make a living. These people are dying young now because they cannot afford to go to doctor for a heart attack (for example) and “wait until morning” is a death sentence. Their teeth are falling out. They have untended tumours. They live in dirt and teepees, yurts, and cobbled together housing on other people’s land. It is not a “living,” by any stretch of the imagination. There are a few who “make do” with the festival circuit, buying and selling as merchants, having a table at flea markets and such.

    I do know photographers who win awards, etc. etc., and sell their work – but they are retired from a profession which pays their bills. I do know **one** artist with an MFA who is completely independent and can paint as she wills, and pay the bills, but I think many of her customers are rich elites and corporate (she also teaches part time at a local university). She is extremely skilled, educated and talented. We can’t all be her.

    One friend of mine quotes his father, who said, “Your value in life is your ability to be productive.” Learning a craft – like house painting, carpentry, plumbing, auto repair, hairdressing, and yes – massage – is one way to produce off-grid income. The more skilled, conscientious, and hard working you are – the more likely you are to make a living. Being able to produce something which is a needed service is essential.

    The most successful job for some of these people is apartment turnovers – cleaning out the apartment, painting, carpeting, repairing, getting it ready for the new tenant.

    I do know a few people who make a living off of eBay, but Etsy’s model actually prevents people from making more than a dribble of income. And again – eBay can be hard work! I don’t know anyone who makes a “living” (roof, food, and possibly transportation) off of “fortune telling,” though I do have a friend who makes a good living from combined services of storytelling (at schools and libraries), writing books, and handicrafts as well as offering readings. By combining all of these services, he is very busy and hardworking (as well as skilled with his woodworking) – and very independent.

    What I am saying is – I know many people who dream of being “off grid,” but who do not have the wherewithal – whether that is drive, ambition, or skill – to do more than be a dirty hippy living off the well being of others.

    I know even more people who are stuck in the system – to quit their drugs – to undiagnose – would be homelessness and worse. If you are over 50 years old, and it is winter – “take your pills and shut up” is a strategy for survival. The fear of losing home, pets, possessions, everything is a strong motivator for staying on system. The older you get, the harder it is to just walk away.

    I’m with kindredspirit in that we need to form communities. Many of my hippy friends do live better – not in communes – but supporting each other as best they can, helping each other out with a place to stay, or sharing meals, etc. BUT – I had one hippy “friend”/family staying in my house in Indiana. They still owe me $6000 in back rent, that I will never see (and the house was trashed). They felt entitled – as “hippy friends” – to walk all over my goodwill. You can’t get blood from a turnip.

    Just some stories about independence for your entertainment and thought.

  • Alex: “This is the complicated part, healing the brain/mind/heart/spirit from gaslighting and negative projections and other dysfunctional relationship patterns which ruin peoples’ health and lives, because they lose their clarity and are filled with doubt, worry, and chronic negative ruminations. All because others like to send messages of doubt and fear. One has to be careful about this. I remember this well from my experience.”

    That’s the crux of the biscuit! When I observe neuroleptic damage or cognitive troubles, I’m always extremely careful to **NOT** **SAY** **SO**!!!! Because in 5, 10, 15, 20 years, it may have recovered enough to be satisfying. (if they can walk away from the diag-nonsense, gaslighting, and other bad programming they’ve received.)

    Or, in the case of the people who insist they need their neuroleptics to keep their brains from exploding (????WTF but it’s true, people really believe in these treatments) – I bite my tongue and cry inside.

    Because it does no good – if someone is not in a position to choose to come off of the drugs (usually due to the programming you describe) – to hammer home that the drugs are destroying their brain. And – sadly, the longer they are on the drugs, the less free will they have to try and come off of them, as their choices and ability to choose becomes limited.

    Neuroleptic = means brain destroying. And the gaslighting keeps one down. Combined, they are formidably life destroying.

    That said, I know people on the drugs who work full time, read physics for fun, paint, play music, etc. etc…brains are amazing!

    I’m glad you got your brain out!

  • Neuroleptics do shrink the brain. The question is – was it a part of the brain that you use?

    I’ve watched this happen with many of my friends and loved ones. I’ve watched IQ loss, decision making falter, inability to perceive and discern “grey areas” (black/white thinking), and complications get immeasurably simplified due to the drugs. I help people come off of neuroleptics, and these qualities are common among many of them.

    You got away young enough to rebuild neuroplasticity and connectomes. It is still possible to be highly intelligent with parts of your brain missing. My husband has a golf-ball sized hole in his brain due to stroke. He is intelligent, analytical, communicative, etc. I can perceive his gaps because I am his wife, but I’m the only one who can.

    The fact of the hole in his brain is not something one can perceive by his functioning. But it sure shows up on MRI.

    Likewise, the neuroleptics clearly shrink frontal lobe white matter (I hope I got that right) on MRI, causing volume loss. That doesn’t mean that your brain doesn’t function – and you’ve had decades to re-wire, utilise neuroplasticity, and form new connectomes so that your brain functions quite well.

    Size and shape of brain is not always function of brain. Certainly, the drugs exacted a price, and certainly, because you are a curious and driven human being, you may have recovered a great deal of functioning. Brain and mind are not the same thing.

    But we will never know what we “could have been without the drugs,” except in a parallel universe.

  • dfk Sometimes the mom is the source of the stress.

    But yes, talk to someone. Grandma, friend, teacher, minister, neighbor (I talked to the Mom of the family who I babysat).

    Peers are not the best for children to talk to, because they are still forming world views, and are frightened of anything “different” to their own experience. But an older person will have perspective on what someone is going through.

  • In orthomolecular, copper is associated with emotionalism.

    The copper in orange juice is minimal, however.

    Balance copper with zinc.

    Most modern people are zinc deficient, so it doesn’t hurt to try it. Our chemists have a thing called “Zinc test” which you drink a sip of, and if it tastes good, you are deficient. If it tastes neutral, you’re probably okay, and if it tastes awful, you are not zinc deficient. This keeps you from OD’ing on zinc.

    I never suggest a supplement without a means to test it.

    The other thing your son has been exposed to is a father who was on neuroleptics much of his adult life, who had extreme states. Children absorb the distress of their parents, even if it’s not “abuse,” it can still affect a developing mind. Children also learn their coping strategies from their parents, and if his was taking pills, and yours is taking pills – then he’s gonna want to take pills, too.

  • Warning: this link downloads software. There is no description of what the software is, or why I should (or shouldn’t) use it.

    More information, please Don. Is this the Platform for the chat?

    Where can I read more about the chat, without downloading software?

  • As long as you are waiting for the “experts” to “fix you,” you will sadly, not get better.

    If you know that the experts are corrupt, that the treatments you espouse were designed and marketed – not for your benefit, but to make money. . . (you’ve read RW, I almost question if you understood it. It is the *same* in the UK as in the USA, it is also the same in Australia. National Health just means that you have centralised records – the doctors behave the same.)

    The best person to make you better is yourself.

    I’m not saying that distress isn’t real, it is. But if “anything that stops suffering” is alcohol – are you okay with that? What about heroin? What if “anything that stops suffering” is a bullet? The current “treatments” are no different to these.

    It’s the same thing, really.

  • I may not be a scientist, but I do know that there have been people diag-nonsensed with some sort of psych disorder when really, they just needed to stop eating wheat and / or gluten OR – quit using sugar substitutes.

    One in particular had an SMI diag-nonsense that was escalating until she gave up the diet coke.

    Others have done well to give up bread and grains. Or processed foods. Or Vegans who started eating fish and meat – and voila! Their SMI diag-nonsense went away.

    So “junk science” ? Perhaps. Field work, more likely.

    I like to see people well.

  • Bippyone if you are dissociating, I would postulate that there is a reason for it. It may be “spiritual” or traumatic, or situational, or just the way you’ve conditioned yourself to react to loneliness or stress.

    Your brain and body are trying to tell you something.

    But you’re content the way you are, so perhaps you don’t care to consider the options.

    We don’t need “treatment,” but we may need support. Nobody (and I mean NOBODY!) needs ECT. And while there may be a small number of people who don’t have the wherewithal to survive without drugs, most people don’t need them, either (they make matters worse).

    I would hazard that your withdrawal from the drugs was too fast, causing rebound psychosis. This is common, and has nothing – absolutely nothing – to do with the craziness of the individual. Psychiatrists and doctors took some “antipsychotics” (properly called neuroleptics) and they went stark raving from it. Found it intolerable. David Healy ran that trial, I believe.

    And the UK psychiatrists are in bed with pharma, regardless of the governmental model of treatment. UK prescribing habits are just as bad as everywhere else in the world.

    KindredSpirit – I got an email saying you posted – but I don’t see your post here?

  • Ah Bippyone – you have brought a loaded gun into the room.

    If you read Robert WHitaker’s “Anatomy of an Epidemic,” you would learn that – ***with*** medicines people die.

    If you read around this site, you will learn that people here have been stark raving mad, “delusional,” “psychotic,” or any number of diagnonsense terms. I’ll go with stark raving mad for my own self-description. There are many people here who have experienced extreme states which are frightening, or amazing – or just awe-some (in the old sense of the word, as in, the Awe felt in the Presence of the Divine.)

    What I have learned in my experiences of extreme states, is that they are lessons. It is indeed helpful to have someone to help you process these states, whether it is a shaman, a religious person, or even a therapist.

    What the drugs do, is dampen down the experience. This enables us to live in society – however, perhaps it is the stressors of society which may have brought on the extreme state to begin with. Being numbed as you go back into it will only drive the crisis deeper. Additionally, they create and contribute to the extreme states you are trying to avoid – “antidepressants” cause depression. “antipsychotics” induce psychosis.

    But these extreme states (some call them “spiritual emergencies,” there are a number of terms bandied around) – as frightening and challenging as they are – are important keys and lessons. When you go THROUGH the experience, you become a stronger, better, more creative and productive person. Often, a non-drugged spiritual emergency, when handled as a lesson – results in growth and insight.

    Yes, I’ve been stark raving mad. Stripping naked so that I would be invisible. Talking to wasps. Stalking the man of my affections (clue: he was one of the contributing factors to my extreme state). I have never been hospitalised, so I might qualify as one of the “walking wounded,” as you say. However – it was only the Grace of God which kept me out of hospital.

    Yes, I submitted to the medications. The trick about the medications – besides dampening down the keys, the lessons, that your emotions and extreme thoughts are trying to teach you – is that the longer you are on them, the cumulative effect of them increases illness. It may be a mysterious illness that seems unrelated to the drug, such as Irritable Bowel, Chronic Fatigue, Fibromyalgia, or even susceptibility to autoimmune disorders.

    People who use the drugs, on average, die 30 years younger than people who don’t use the drugs. This is an average, and there are always exceptions.

    You say you suffer delusions – I would ask you – what are your delusions trying to tell you? Jung might say that they are symbols of a deeper distress which needs to be addressed.

    And honestly, while the NHS is “not-for-profit,” there are a number of Brits in here who can tell you how badly they were abused under the NHS. The corporate pharma is just as happy to sell to governments as it is doctors, hospitals, clinics and individuals – and ALL of the drug information propagated by these profit centers is skewed and dangerously wrong. NONE of these drugs are tested in the long term.

    The challenge is – from an extreme state – finding the ability to address the extreme-ness, and strive for the lessons that YOUR OWN BODY AND BRAIN are trying to teach you. It’s not easy, it’s not a cakewalk. It may be that this path is too challenging for you to pursue. You’re widowed, you’re tired, perhaps diving into the fog of drug numbness is what is your choice.

    But I’m telling you – the people on this site who say that diagnosis is diagnonsense, the DSM is a lie, and psychiatry is not science – have experience in the extreme states you are struggling with. Everyone is different, truly, and your choices are your own.

    I’m only scratching the surface here, Bippyone – but I hear defeat and surrender in your voice, and it is my desire to give you hope that there is another way besides drugging your brain into compliance.

    Normally at this point, I would offer you http://www.survivingantidepressants.org, where many people have freed themselves from the ball and chain journey of the drugs. But instead of that, please consider reading Robert Whitaker’s excellent, “Anatomy of an Epidemic” to discover the long term, disabling effect of the drugs and treatments promoted by the fake science of psychiatry.

    I feel your distress. I remember a time when I would do anything – ANYTHING (even considered ECT) to make the extreme states stop. I can see you are close to that place now. SO perhaps my words will fall on deaf ears. I hope I’ve said this in a way which is sensitive and not aggravating to you. But perhaps, over time, as you start to pay the price of the drugs – perhaps you will remember.

    There are other ways. Psychiatry is not needed. It is not science. It is not even art. It is social control.

  • Hey l_e_cox –

    CCHR is to Scientology like Social Work is to Psychiatry.

    To use your terms, CCHR is the bird dog that wants to send people to Scientology.

    While they do not use toxic drugs, they do use toxic methods. There’s a new special coming out by Leah Remini who is pulling no punches.

    I do watch their docos, if you can turn down the bass (they make threatening music to “drive the point home”), and not allow any of the medium massage you – there is frequently excellent information in their docos.

    But – if you read Robert Whitaker’s “Anatomy of an Epidemic” – affiliation with Scientology is one way that psychiatry can dismiss you as a crackpot. Honestly, it was one reason I didn’t believe in the harms of the drugs, because – well, Prozac was just a Scientology lawsuit, wasn’t it?

    “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” is fraught with peril.

  • Julie – I’ve found you have to be careful with naturopaths and alternatives, too. Especially if one is trying to come off the psych drugs – naturopaths, just like all practitioners, have their favourite modalities, and not all of them apply to all people.

    While it is less likely that a naturopath will poison you, there is still a good deal of harm in the name of “natural medicine.”

    My approach is to do my own research, and my natural practitioners are partners. I may or may not take their advice, depending on my knowledge, history and experience in my body, but I am thankful to have someone to consult with when I get confused about symptoms.

    Sadly, because of what psychiatry and medicine has done to me – I have a lot of confusing symptoms.

  • Kindred – you are a gem!

    This is stuff I was unaware of.

    Australia has something similar – because it’s roughly a single payer system (with a tier for “private insurance”) – the government knows nearly everything.

    This year they rolled in MyHealthRecord which is a record that goes across all platforms. All labs, all visits, all tests, everything goes onto this massive database. You can opt out of it – but it’s tricky, and they don’t make it easy. I have opted out.

    I first noticed it when my Orthomolecular doc ticked a box on my labs that said, “DO NOT SEND TO MYHEALTH” so I looked it up, you had until a certain date to opt out – after that date, too late, you’re in the system…

    It sounds similar to what they are doing in the US. The only advantage I see in the US is that it paves the way to socialised medicine. There would be a small advantage for people travelling to be able to access records about epilepsy or allergies.

    But on the whole, I’m with you. Don’t use the system unless you have to! (the problem is, unless we all boycott, the beatings will continue!)

    THANK you for all of those resources!

  • Hi Starr!
    Yes, there are many doctors who stop prescribing, and start with natural and nutritional interventions.

    When they do this, I become afraid for them.

    Hearing Dr. Jennifer Daniels’ story is very enlightening. She had to leave the country – but at least she is alive to tell the tale.

  • Hi – I just read the CITA brochure, and it is excellent.

    However, when tapering, it is vitally important to not alternate days. While their schedule is pretty non-intrusive – alternating days can throw you into little withdrawals each time, and over time this effect can be cumulative and destabilising.

    http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/300-important-topics-in-the-tapering-forum-and-faq/?p=2864

    People go to these kinds of schedules because they cannot imagine chopping, crushing, liquifying – and all the other techniques we use to taper (like counting microbeads)…it’s considered “forbidden” by doctors and pharmacists, and yet we have good success with tapering using these techniques.

    At Surviving Antidepressants, we do a 10%-of-previous-dose taper per month. It takes 3 weeks for neurotransmitters to adjust, and a month gives you a week of “just to be sure” before tapering again.

    https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1024-why-taper-by-10-of-my-dosage/

    it’s sad that CITA closed – you’d think there would be interest in getting people off these dangerous drugs. But no. There doesn’t seem to be.

  • NP’s – I was first seen by a Psych NP when I began to cave in to the diag-nonsense. She was scary – and kindredspirit you’re right they’ve proliferated in the name of bottom line profits.

    i have a doctor friend who – as a family practitioner – might refer a patient to, say, a dermatologist, thinking that it was beyond her expertise – only to have the case handled (and poorly) by an NP. She snorted, “I should’ve just treated them myself!”

    But here’s the thing, where there is hierarchy up, there is oppression down. The nurses take the brunt of the profit centre. There’s nobody out there trying to reduce their hours, improve their shifts, offer them benefits. The whip cracks on their backs, too.

    And it makes numbers of them just as authoritarian as they’ve been treated. You know the way the abused become the abuser?

    Hierarchy up/Oppression down.

    And the diagnosed are at the bottom of that heavy pyramid.

  • I was having this discussion
    In a taxi heading downtown
    Rearranging my position
    On this friend of mine who had

    A little bit of a breakdown
    I said breakdowns come
    And breakdowns go
    So what are you going to do about it

    That’s what I’d like to know

    – Paul Simon

    “Breakdowns” is an interesting way to describe it. In order to transform, a caterpillar goes into a cocoon, where his entire cellular structure dissolves into the goo which will build a butterfly. Breakdown, dissolution, is sometimes essential to build something new.

  • I can’t help but to feel for all of the poor people in the studies.

    *In the event of kidney disease, we recommend continuation of lithium treatment in order to prevent “relapse.”

    Sure, just kill them instead of helping them.

    It’s like these studies were designed to induce instability and suffering…

  • Intestinal flora is a two way street.

    You have good biotics that you want to grow, and out-of-balance ones that you want to decrease.

    My TCM lady says that moving the good people into the village helps to move the bad people out – but –

    Sometimes when you’re so out of balance, you might want to do a “die off” – with oregano oil – before re-biotic-ing your flora. It helped me to get my biome done, but not everyone can afford that. I found that I had too much streptococcus and another – and – get this – not enough e. coli. I actually TAKE e. coli as a supplement (especially if I have to take acetominophen for pain, which kills native e. coli).

  • That’s tough. There’s such thing as “too much protein.” Definitely carbs are a problem (that’s because of the liver damage – welcome to “metabolic disorder” and Non Alcoholic Fatty Liver disease!).

    Electrolytes are huge. I love my pink salt!

    I take a kidney glandular , I don’t know what it does but I’m afraid to stop it when I have attacks like I did the other night. I do have an “orthomolecular” or “functional medicine” doc who looks at more detail than my p-doc or GP does.

    Water, water, water, water. I am addicted to coffee and tea, but limit them to one per day. The rest is water. Water. Water. Kidneys love water.

  • Hey Oldhead –

    You hit the nail on the head!

    I write in Surviving Antidepressants (link above) about that is where the danger lies with lithium. It may be the “lightest metal” but as you take it, it gets heavier and heavier in your system. The longer you take it, and the higher the dose, the more burden it places on your body.

    The longer you take it, the heavier it gets, and it’s chronic use of it where it takes its toll.

    Many people on that thread in SA report that they started taking LO, and it helped, and they were fine, but over time, it made them dull and flat (that’s the point of psych-drug lithium!).

    Over time, it ripped my soul away, and I fell into a deep anhedonia. Nothing mattered. I lost my give-a-yhit-itude. I sat on my back verandah and smoked and read books. I don’t remember those books, I only remember that I spent 10 years out there smoking cigarettes and caring about nothing. Well, okay – I cared about the cigarettes, but that doesn’t contribute to my family, community and society at all.

    Coming out from lithium (I tapered 10% increments over 1.5 years) was like walking out from a muddy swamp. Gradually, my head cleared the swamp and I could see the sky again, even while my hips were deep in mud and I was deeply fatigued.

    I’m now about ankle or knee deep (depending on the day) but seeing the sky and the horizon is motivating to keep me moving and creating and producing even when I no longer have the capacity to produce the way that other people (“normals”) do.

  • Hey zmenard, don’t be surprised if your doctor pooh-poohs my information.

    After all, it came from a “citizen scientist” and not from a doctor. The only reason I researched it was because I had been damaged – in a way that my doctor didn’t even recognise.

    My doctor wouldn’t believe anything I found on the internet, not even if it came from a “respectable MD site.”

    It is important to do your own research, and make your own choices – it is your body.

    However, if you are on an AOT, and the doc is fending off the courts with lithium orotate – that’s preferable to other horrors which could be unleashed.

    Drink ample water – too much is probably close to about right. And electrolytes (you hear people talking about potassium here, magnesium is also vital) to ensure that your kidneys have all the support you can muster. I like using natural pink or sea salt to get a full electrolyte profile.

    It may be possible that you could reduce (please taper!) to the safer dose that the doc is on.

  • “Therapeutic dose” is bogus. Yes, there are “studies” which proclaim that xxx-yyy levels in the blood seem to be more effective on a subjective test like HAM-D or something (“how do you feel? how are you sleeping?” etc), but – as my doctor-friend said, when she found out I had been lithium-prescribed, “it’s such a narrow therapeutic window!” This means that the line between beneficial and toxic is a razor’s edge. And many – like Oldhead – would proclaim that there are no beneficial levels (though there are towns and villages with natural lithium in the water, and they do have lower rates of violence, domestic and otherwise, suicide and depression).

    I woke up this morning after a night of being up every half hour with diabetes insipidus, a lingering, painful, dribbling torture from my 10 years on the lithium carbonate.

    There is a fiction that says that lithium orotate (the OTC kind) is “safer” – but when given to rats, it was more toxic in lower doses than lithium carbonate, and caused damage more quickly. It is less potent at 3.83 mg elemental to 100 mg “chelate” compared to carbonate at 18.8 mg/100 mg…

    I’ve written a lot about this here: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/7040-lithium-orotate/

    I’ve concluded that – yes, it is probably somewhat “neuroprotective,” and in some people it can assist with biological clock (it didn’t for me). But the amount needed to assist, and the amounts prescribed – are widely variant. And it is dangerous, regardless of what John Gray PhD (“Venus and Mars”) advocates (he has videos singing the praises of lithium orotate).

    I’ve compared lithium doses to amounts naturally occurring in water, and decided that it’s fine to take lithium if you take enough water. I’ve also done the maths, and my dose of lithium carbonate required something like 423 litres of water daily to survive; hence, I got sick with kidney damage. My tiny dose of lithium orotate required 1/3 litre of water daily (this is additional to normal fluids).

    @zmenard’s dose of 60 mg here, would require 11.5 litres of water daily in order to take it safely. Her doctor’s dose of 10 mg would require nearly 2 litres of water – which is closer to safe.

    Anyone who wants to take more than 5 mg lithium orotate daily should have kidney and liver function tests regularly (every 6 months). Additionally, all of my kidney function tests were in normal ranges – even though I couldn’t sleep through the night for my kidneys doing the diabetes insipidus thing (which I still apparently suffer from, now 3 years off the drugs). I had to educate my doctor about this, as she didn’t believe that lithium *caused* diabetes insipidus. I made her look it up. “OH my, yes, it does!”

    It is not a “safe supplement.” Some naturopathic doctors like Dr. Nancy Mullen suggest that everyone should take 60 mg daily. I disagree.

    The problem with these kinds of supplements – and lithium in particular – is you don’t know the damage until it is done. The problem with kidney damage is that you don’t always notice it until you need dialysis. It was painful to not be able to sleep through the night last night, as my kidneys kept shedding liquid.

    And oh yeah, I lost my thyroid taking lithium, too. I had a visible goitre when doc prescribed it! She had no business prescribing lithium to someone with a goitre! Goitre got so large, that thyroid had to be removed so that I could breathe.

    Your doctor is giving it to you to make herself feel better, it probably has nothing to do with you.

  • “The threat to rigorous and ethical scientific conduct within EBS research seems connected to larger practices uncontained by proper guidelines or regulation of standards. ”

    I am learning about how much private clinics here in Australia are earning from TMS and ECT. It is an assembly line of “clients,” all lined up to get their brains adjusted, one after the other. Cha-ching$$$ cha-ching$$$ cha-ching$$$

    Why question the science, if it is making money?

  • You’re very right Steve.

    Because the child is autistic, I have not been permitted to meet him.

    It would be “too upsetting” to his routine, or something. Or perhaps they are ashamed of his extremes?

    Never mind that I send the child presents 2x a year from Australia to America…

    The whole situation is sad, very sad, because I know what they are doing to his brain – which is probably brilliant.

  • All fine and well, but the companies in the article: Young Living and doTerra are pyramid schemes, almost at the cult level. And while the products may be good, they are overpriced, and use scams to distribute to unwitting “want to be in your own business” pyramid schemes.

    This is predatory behaviour. What is it doing here touted as a “cure for anxiety,” when everyone I know distributing for doTerra has deep anxiety about how they are going to get their next order? (and hint: you can only get the oils if you are a distributor. Scam alert)

    And Young sounds like the essence of a self important predator.

    I am an herbalist, yes, I will take teas of turmeric or lemon balm, and put rosemary on my food. Using an extract in a similar way sounds – almost dangerous. Ingesting essential oils is an experiment.

    Additionally, it sounds like they have no environmental care at all, and are willing to trade in endangered woods and damage ecosystems, all to support the 1/10th of 1% at the top of their pyramid.

    I like a sweet smelling oil as much as anyone, and they can be an important part of health and emotional well being. But egads, pay a fair price for a fair product! I smell a fad.

  • In my experience at SA (and in the real world), tapering antipsychotics is extremely difficult, because the drugs destroy the frontal lobes – centres of concentration, discipline and reasoning required to come off the drug slowly.

    This is why so many impulsively get off – and in many ways it’s the only way for some people. Is to just stop destroying their mind (and tolerate the disabling intrusive symptoms for as long as it takes to get better).

    This is not “relapse,” withdrawal symptoms can strike 6-18 months out. “one month” is hardly a test.

  • Agree Steve! But any GP can help with a single drug. Then you don’t have to mess around with the psychiatrists.

    In a perfect world, I would invite someone to the Healer’s Hut, to stay as long as needed, to thrash and scream and have someone there to keep them safe while they go through the horrors of withdrawal. But I don’t have a Healer’s Hut, and I don’t know where they can be found. I hear Mandala Project in SF, CA is something like this. Or Soteria.

    In a perfect world, someone’s family would be there for them. But in this world, it can be the family who caused the crisis to begin with, as RD Laing so astutely observed when he sent folks home from his Healer’s Hut.

    It’s a tough question. What to do with human distress, in an increasingly distressing world?

  • Oh, and doctors have done her so much good?

    Failure to reinstate may mean that she is likely to suffer worse and longer. I have a friend who CT’d Cymbalta and now, 10 years later, is still suffering. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.

    Reinstate is about harm reduction. We don’t do it because we love the drugs and the doctors, but because her body and brain are crying out for the thing she has been withdrawn from. It is a kindness, possibly an essential one.

    Apparently, markps2 you haven’t witnessed what “full blown acute and chronic” withdawal looks like. It’s ugly, and dangerous.

    Start with akathisia: https://youtu.be/x86aCDtvbT0 and http://missd.co/

    Akathisia is the most common (and dangerous) symptom from these drugs.

  • Let me tell you about my Guardian Angel, Squeak.

    I got her at a beef farm, a litter of barn kittens (she was blue, all my cats have been blue – I’m about ready to graduate to a tabby, but still have a blue cat).

    She was with me through 2 marriages, 3x as many boyfriends. She saw me on drugs, she lived through my extreme states. She met all of my friends.

    She was a cantankerous cat. Guests always thought she looked “mean,” but she was just being protective. She was the kind of cat that when she heard something scary – she would run TOWARDS it growling like a dog.

    So – nobody loved that cat but me. When things got extreme, and I contemplated ending my life, she would look at me and tell me – that nobody else would take her, nobody else would love her like I did – and SHE would love nobody else. Killing myself would kill her too.

    She kept me alive for all of her 19 years. She’s gone now, but I’m stable. I owe my life to that cat.

  • Kate – if you join SA – you will have a platform to talk about this all you want – and an audience that understands the harms of drugging (as they are all suffering from their own overdrugging experiences).

    Please, come and chat – there’s a huge community there which will welcome you with open arms.

    I know – it sounds like I’m thumping on, but I really do think you would benefit, or I wouldn’t keep saying it.

    There – you can talk about your cat, your DBT experience, NONE of it is off topic. You’ll have your own thread where you can chat with people – and you can go to their threads and chat about their experiences and compare it to your own – and find that your story is not so strange after all.

    You are not alone!

  • My cat (she’s smaller than Kodi) uses a sling bag like this one:

    http://www.i-ownpets.com/product/Pet-Sling-Carrier-Bag.html

    She loves it because she cuddles next to me. There’s also a tether that I can attach to her harness (she loves her harness, because she wore one ever since she was a kitten) so that she cannot jump out.

    She also likes it because she can hunker down and hide from stuff (like traffic or people or anything loud or scary to her) or she can pop her head out and check stuff out.

    We no longer use the other cat carriers, this is her preferred conveyance.

  • Oldhead – that’s ME!

    Don’t intervene and put your tubes and drugs in me to try and give me another 24-48 hours of life! Let me curl up in my box by the stove, and meet my Maker in my own way!!!

    My own cat – yes, we did take her to the vet for a transfusion of fluids (kidney failure) but then brought her home where she experienced and I witnessed her last breath, in the comfort of bed.

    Vets are a little better than doctors – but they still have a vested interest in intervening.

  • I believe that both the Inner Compass and Laura Delano base their information on Surviving Antidepressants protocols, but okay, whatever you find helpful. Since Surviving Antidepressants is free, open source and evolving, it stands to reason that people would lift a lot of stuff from there.

    Laura Delano is trying to make a living out of it, which is a bit of a sticking point to the founder of SA.

    When you go to SA you will find that a lot of people are keen on Baylissa Fredericks (also called Bliss Johns, she focuses on benzos – but her self-soothing techniques are beautiful) and Claire Weekes (for surfing and surviving anxiety) – both can be found on YouTube.