This post was posted when I first started challenging some of your views, it’s from oldhead: oldhead April 16, 2020 at 11:25 pm No one is saying that medication/drugs can’t be beneficial. No one? This is your response: Steve McCrea April 17, 2020 at 12:22 am Well, individuals certainly report perceiving them as beneficial. But then, many people perceive a snort of Johnny Walker Red or a couple of beers after work as beneficial, too. Doesn’t make beer a “treatment” for “Work-Related Stress Disorder.” Link: https://www.madinamerica.com/2020/04/experiences-open-dialogue-peer-support-program-nyc/#comment-170761“>https://www.madinamerica.com/2020/04/experiences-open-dialogue-peer-support-program-nyc/#comment-170761</a I'm guessing you're going to say I misinterpreted that too? Only reason I'm posting this is to defend myself from accusations that I'm misinterpreting Steve….
This post was posted when I first started challenging some of your views, it’s from oldhead:
April 16, 2020 at 11:25 pm
No one is saying that medication/drugs can’t be beneficial.
This is your response:
April 17, 2020 at 12:22 am
Well, individuals certainly report perceiving them as beneficial. But then, many people perceive a snort of Johnny Walker Red or a couple of beers after work as beneficial, too. Doesn’t make beer a “treatment” for “Work-Related Stress Disorder.”
I'm guessing you're going to say I misinterpreted that too?
Only reason I'm posting this is to defend myself from accusations that I'm misinterpreting Steve….
There is in fact a contradiction. You claim on the one hand that the majority of scientific research is not replicable. Then I said if that’s the case, why is Robert Whitaker even challenging the research with his own interpretation of it… You then replied and I quote, “Again, I did not say that scientific data is not replicable”
So it’s not replicable when I mention all the scientific advancements, but it is replicable when Robert Whitaker is challenging it. Right!!
So there you have it in black and white.
You also said in another comment that antipsychotic medication has no effect on people and is akin to someone drinking whiskey to cure a cold… I can copy and paste the exact quote if you want me to.
I wonder how many lives have been lost by people not using critical analysis when they come across information by people who seemingly know what they’re talking about. Sad.
First quote from you…
And in case you think my skepticism re: modern medical research is misplaced or based on emotion, try reading the following, which outlines why the majority of scientific research done today is **not** replicable, which from a REAL scientific perspective, means it is scientifically untrue:
Again, I did not say that scientific data is not replicable – you are putting words in my mouth. You either did not read the article, or did not get the main points it makes. The point is that TRUE scientific data IS replicable. But data that is NOT replicable is, BY DEFINITION, not scientifically true.
It’s unusual for for someone who claims they’re a scientist to make so many non sequitur arguments
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First of all, it was you who used the word scientist first (post @ 11:46am).
Second, you claim scientific data is not replicable. So why is the author even trying to give us his point of view on the data, if it’s not replicable…
You fail to grasp the incredible advancement in society due to scientist. We’re currently living in an enlightened era. Advancement in medication, genomics and vaccine has substantially prolonged life and improved quality. Sure, there are side effects and a few bad scientist, but overall the contribution they provide for society is breathtaking.
On the other hand can we say the same about journalism? Eh no. The information revolution has brought about equality to the masses in terms of access to information. Sure a kid in Africa has access to more pertinent information than the president of America did 15 years ago.
Looks like journalist will have to create a nich stories to poor, ignorant people to make a living in 21st century…
I would rather trust scientists who are schooled in analysis and methodology rather than a journalist who is schooled in framing stories.
But saying “studies show you live longer if you stay on your medication” is a misstatement of fact, and actually contradicts your earlier statements that antipsychotics do, in fact, contribute to the undeniably shortened lifespans that have been reported
How does it contradict it?
Example A: stay on you meds and die earlier than average due to poverty and side effects.
Example B: die earlier than example A on average through sucides due to coming off meds and becoming psychotic.
This site promotes example B. I was almost a statistic for example B…
A new study from Lund University in Sweden shows that the average life expectancy of men and women with schizophrenia is 15 years and 12 years shorter respectively than for those who do not suffer from the disease.Jan 21, 2013
Far cry from the authors stated 25 year difference
Besides, most people who are schizophrenic stay at the lowest percentage point their entire lives. Most people who’ve been in poverty don’t live their entire lives at the lowest percentage point. Big difference…
I never claimed antipsychotic medication doesn’t shorten lifespan. Get your facts right. I claimed poverty plays a far greater role in lifespan than antipsychotic medication. The author failed in his analysis to take that into consideration. Thus, I stated it’s hard to believe his analysis (author attempt to rebut the studies).
People who initially go into psychosis are mostly poor people. Medication compounds the problem because of the side effects. Studies show you live longer if you stay on your medication. I saw several fallacies in the authors attempted rebuttal of the evidence. I can’t get into it because I’m posting on a smartphone so it would take too long. I’m also busy with my business
A Failed Paradigm of Care
There have been a small number of other studies that utilized prescription databases to report on mortality hazards related to antipsychotic use, and their findings mostly echo those cited above. They tell of lower all-cause mortality associated with regular antipsychotic use, and yet, at the same time, if they report on SMR rates for the entire cohort, they tell of high mortality for the entire cohorts
It’s quite simple to understand the *seemingly* lack of logic in the above statement
The vast majority of schizophrenics are poor people. Income inequality in America results in over a 20 year difference in lifespan on average
If you can’t understand this simple analysis, it is hard to take you seriously in your attempt to rebut the studies
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I think you’re now trying to circumvent from what you said earlier.
It is not clear at all what you believe in.
I’m going to leave it at that now, but I will be around in the comment section for future articles.
I’m going to keep this short and sweet because I’m typing from my smartphone.
poverty and the perception of poverty being linked to mental health problems, here’s the evidence:
Guess you were wrong about that?
I never claimed that environmental factors don’t play a role in schizophrenia.
My position is genes and environmental factors cause schizophrenia. Environmental factors vary widely
Your position was childhood adversity cause schizophrenia and genes have no role.
You can’t seem to grasp or be able to comprehend that genes and the environment play a role in schizophrenia. Moreover, there’s plenty of contradictions and wild claims in your personal analysis that it’s hard to believe you consider yourself an expert on the subject.
Claiming that some psychiatrist did wrong things in the past so shouldn’t be trusted in the present or future is simply false analogy fallacy.
If MadInAmerica really cared about the mentally ill they would provide a balance coverage instead of promoting a false ideology…
Have you any evidence to back up the first paragraph comment. Or we yet again suppose to take your word for it? Because as far as I’m aware antipsychotic medication as helped millions of people including me…
You claim that immigrants have higher number of schizophrenics, that cause they tend to be poorer than upper class, so have harder life. The harder the life, the more likely it will cause schizophrenia. It really is that simple.
It’s clear you still don’t know the function of the genome, even after you qouted wiki. The genome is like the software that directs a computer/human, genes are part of the software. The anology really is that simple.
Tens of thousands of psychiatrist, genetic professors claim schizophrenia is genetic.
Read this if you don’t believe me:
I can publish many, many other publications like that one
Strange, eh? Only one source this site provides – the holy grail, Open Dialogue – which is the foundation of this whole site, but yet they dodge the publication of hundreds of the latest scientific papers.
I like to let everyone know that you should do your due diligence before believing what you read. I believed in the ‘ethos’ of this site which resulted in me almost killing someone and very close to committing sucide.
Before you judge, you should inform yourself.
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Read this https://www.bbrfoundation.org/content/connecting-dots-genes-brain-biology-disorders
Plenty of other information pertaining to the matter can be found IF you’re not hellbent on your particular ideology
One more thing:
Genes in embryonic stem cells create the brain. We haven’t uncovered fully how the brain works. So you claiming that “genes causing schizophrenia is nonsensical,” is nonsensical
I reread your post. It’s clear you don’t understand what the genome is. The ability of software to operate a computer is apt analogy. The genome is the software that operates the function of a human. A fault in genes could have devastating consequences
I almost killed someone and was VERY close to hang myself while psychotic. If it wasn’t for the medication I would be dead or killed someone.
About one percent of every country are schizophrenics. That includes war torn countries. If it was solely due to adversity those war torn countries would see orders of magnitude of higher numbers of schizophrenia, but it isn’t the case.
I’ve read several books on genetic engineering: regenesis, a crack in creation and many others.
I’m VERY excited about genetic engineering.
Genetic engineering will be as ubiquitous as smartphone are now due to exponential progress. It will be seen as criminal preventing people to enhance their lifespan, memory, cognitive abilities, and cure genetic defective mutations.
You can’t seem to grasp what you write, Steve McCrea.
We’re talking about curing schizophrenia here.
Childhood adversity CORRELATES with schizophrenia. It’s practically impossible to implement a plan to eradicate it.
Whereas, genetic engineering will CURE schizophrenia.
As for genetic variance being a fallacy…. Pfff
One third of schizophrenics will need medication until a cure comes along.
The next third will relapse a few times but will ultimately be able to come off their meds.
And final third will have one psychotic episode and will be ok after that.
This is established fact that has been told to me by various psychiatrist.
IM NOT GOING TO SPOON FEED YOU, I’VE BETTER THINGS TO DO. THEY’RE BEGINING TO UNCOVER GENETIC LINKS TO HEARING VOICES AND OTHER TYPES OF SCHIZOPHRENIC ATTRIBUTES. LOOK IT UP, YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING.
Before I started using critical analysis I avidly read books promoted from this site. One of them claimed that schizophrenia was due to repressed homosexual urges.
By the way, the 80% correlation to childhood adversity and schizophrenia is misrepresentation. Schizophrenia is like shyness in a way. There are genetic variants. Some schizophrenics can’t handle much adversity or they’ll relapse. Poorer people have more challenging life so are mostly prone to schizophrenia. Basically, there’s a correlation but no causation.
They only decoded the genome in 2003 at a cost of 3 billion US dollars. Today you can get it done for free. An exponential advancement. The problem with figuring out which genes map with schizophrenia is that the genes responsible for schizophrenia mostly lie in the brain AND there’s different types of schizophrenia. But all of this is beginning to be uncovered now. Once they map out each person’s genome and pin point which genes are responsible for schizophrenia this site will thankfully fall into irrevalence
There will be a complete cure for all types of genetic defect in under 10 years due to the exponential advancement in genetic engineering by CRISPR.
Verbose article with no new facts or evidence except the one single source, which this whole website is based on. Tragedy.
People stick to their ideology on this site and don’t seem to use critical analysis.
You’re selling hope without factoring in the consequence ye are promoting by making people come off their medication and relapse into psychosis. I was incarcerated for two years for a stabbing I did while psychotic and under the supervision of Open Dialogue.
Ye should be promoting genetic engineering instead, as that’s what schizophrenia is – a genetic defect.
I had two options in court: plead not guilty by reason of insanity and spend an indefinite amount of time in an asylum, average time 7 years, or plead guilty and spend two years in jail but end up with a criminal record. I chose the latter since it is my understanding that schizophrenia is a genetic defect, thus treatment in the asylum would be negligible to overall outcome!
I’ve found your article to be mostly verbiage along, with the narrative of this site. I’m a schizophrenic that was on high dose of haloperidol. I found it debilitating, I couldn’t find the time to study or work because I slept 12 hours a day. I tried everything to improve my outcome to come off the meds: praying, psychotherapy and open dialogue. Nothing worked. In fact, it almost ruined my life. As I was tapering from the medication under the supervision of open dialogue I became psychotic, which tragically ended up with me stabbing a friend with a large kitchen knife nine times. None of this would have happened if I used critical analysis and searched for the actual FACTS the open dialogue and various other pseudo theories perpetuated on this site are substantiated with evidence.
Anyway, when I get was in jail for the crime I committed, I read the literature that is allegedly bullshit according to the ethos of site and found it far more convincing than anything I read on this site. I don’t have time to expand on my thoughts because I’m caught for time, but I will say that a priest did come to visit me when I was in solitary confinement, which I found was nice of him, but it didn’t help my psychosis. Now I’m on good medication and I can work and I have a normal life..
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The claims made by Open Dialogue and this site are mostly pseudo. I’ve first hand knowledge of this. I went to Open Dialogue in Bantry, Ireland, wanted to come off my Meds, which I did, but unfortunately I ended up stabbing someone nine times with a large kitchen knife when I became psychotic. Ended up in the second oldest institution in the world for the criminally insane, then went to prison.
During my time incarcerated, I learned that schizophrenia is genetic and psychotherapy does nothing to alleviate the underlying cause. I also learnt that most of the analysis bashing medication on this site is done by highly ignorant people with an agenda.
At one stage, I considered donating to this site haha….
I might submit my personal story to refute some of the claims made by this site