Richard — not that I disagree, but I think “we” also need to be careful about how the term “prison industrial complex” is often appropriated and tacked on to other concerns. “Prison Industrial Complex” is a term that has long been used by the prison movement, and as most prisoners are Black, at least proportionally speaking, I am very wary of a bunch of “middle class” white people appropriating (or misappropriating) the term for their own pet causes.
I believe that it would be legitimate and consistent with the understanding of what “Prison Industrial Complex” actually means for us to adopt the term “Prison/Psychiatric Industrial Complex,” which consolidates the two forms of repression without making it sound competitive between “our” movement and “their” movement, because if it’s not all the same movement something is essentially wrong.
All corporate news has always been fake, so the whole “fake news” meme is beside the point. To me this is just more liberals in denial about why their deceptive and corrupt agenda was rejected. They need a scapegoat for when the Russia hoax finally falls flat.
This doesn’t mean that I “support” Trump any more than I do the rest, but I do see him as less dangerous. Partially because so far he’s killed far less people than Bush/Obama/ Clinton(s). But I think also he’s a decent wrench in the neoliberal/neoconservative works, partially by being so blatant when they want him to whisper and use buzzwords. But he’s a rogue billionaire from what I can see, not one of the old boy network, and without as much power as the more corporate billionaires and their politicians despite his bluster and the “progressive” hysteria about him being the antichrist or whatever. It helps us when we can play them off against one another, but so far no one seems to realize that this is the time for truly “progressive” people to make a move beyond the hypocritical posturings of liberal Democrats and other corporate flunkies, i.e. when they’re semi-paralyzed by all the craziness. But since “progressives” generally don’t have a revolutionary bone in their bodies, this never seems to cross their minds.
This is such bullshit. Not even worth arguing about.
Actually I don’t think I do. People talk all sorts of shit, which is why we have the capacity for eye-rolling.
It’s not just a semantic problem, it’s deception, plain & simple. “Mental illness” is impossible; however the voice of authority on such questions is not the psychiatric “researcher,” it would be your high school English teacher, or your college linguistics instructor.
Not “especially in the U.S.,” but period.
The “middle class” has always been an illusion btw.
Sadly we are witnessing the daily loss of our democracy here in the US.
Yeah, neoliberals suck.
I’m truly shocked that with all the hype we’ve been hearing for years, “Open Dialogue” is actually a drugging-based operation, just like all the others. Has this ever been mentioned before?
Yes.
I don’t think we can rely on professionals alone to bring much change to psychiatric systems.
Especially when the only relevant change would be their elimination.
That’s insane. The spiel about Open Dialogue I thought included it being drug-free. So it’s more like getting hit by a baseball bat 3 times instead of 8. Progress?
What is the real goal of inpatient psychiatric care? Especially for underserved populations, what is the difference between the “inpatient psychiatric unit” and a prison?
The purpose of psychiatry is social control. Prisons are prisons, no matter what the name. Sorry you spent so much time & money training to be a “counselor.” But at least you have the experience with which to expose the reality from the inside, should you choose. When I was locked up I used to tell myself that the purpose of this was to learn what the experience was like so that I could expose it later.
P.S. “Hospitals,” like minds, cannot be “sick”; they are oppressive.
Hey I remember this blog. Looks like it got lost in the melodrama.
ALL psychiatric drug research is bogus, all psychiatric research period is invalid since it presupposes the existence of something called “mental illness,” which is a literal impossibility.
Great, so 36% of “patients” are on psych drugs when they’re finished “treatment.” This is the new-fangled “alternative”? Sounds like the cancer industry pronouncing people “cured” if they live for 5 years.
There is no such thing as a “mental hospital,” we are talking about psychiatric prisons. They should not exist at all. Period.
Someone, anyone — Can we PLEASE close this comments section now? It can serve no further purpose. And more pertinent blogs are being ignored.
Abrianna had NO idea she was hurting people’s feelings
Yet when she was informed that she WAS she refused to hear it. So I think it’s time to cease with the blaming, the apologizing, and this discussion in general. Almost none of the other blogs have any new comments due to this tabloid-style distraction.
Don’t know who that is. But I thought it had been long established that it’s not about “good” vs. “bad” shrinks; it’s about a bad system. (That doesn’t mean that “nice” shrinks should be given a pass.)
MIA made a mistake here. I think that much has been recognized, so there’s no need to act like this is something systemic.
There IS a better way — Abrianna should have been allowed to grow her understanding of the issues before being presented as an “authority.” People’s reactions here are completely legitimate, but it’s not her fault. At least not initially.
Something seems to be going on with you, I repeat. Usually your posts are pretty on target, but you’re pulling your punches here. And don’t pretend this is about “censorship.” Personal insults are not allowed here, that’s all. This includes insulting groups of people who have been labeled.
I don’t see how this is a response to what I just said.
It makes no difference whatever what individuals’ intentions are, it’s their actions we are concerned with. Those who are unaware of the destruction they sow are at least as, if not more dangerous, than those who are deliberately malevolent. It’s the primarily the mentality that needs to be exposed and confronted.
Alex, how can you possibly call any of this “dialogue”? This is a juvenile food fight.
Sorry about your dog, that sucks.
Violent inmates are separated from nonviolent ones in most prisons, psychiatric or otherwise, so this much is a no-brainer; I doubt anyone would disagree.
Good to see articles like this emerging. However I wish Laura D and others would emphasize that the problem is not simply psychiatric drugs but psychiatry itself, and the system it supports.
Not saying it’s what your article is about, it’s what the debate is about.
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You’re going to hate me — please understand I’m not arguing about the issue at hand and tend to agree with you here — but as a matter of consistency, “schizophrenic” is a label ascribed to people by psychiatry, which they “carry”; but “psychiatrist” is a self-proclaimed identity, not an externally-imposed “label” that they “carry.” But I know you didn’t write the guidelines. 🙂
No Sam, it’s not about correct terminology in this case; it’s about attitude.
A very immature and selfish attitude. But I guess that’s obvious.
Personality disordered people are really good at manipulating people into believing they are the worst of all victims.
There is no such thing as a “personality disordered person” other than as a personal judgement. This is a psychiatric label, a form of hate speech. You first accept this meaningless label as real, then go on to describe the “characteristics” of those you apply it to. This is circular logic.
Slightly off the subject, but “peer” is a problematic term, both as it often manifests in practice and semantically, as it implies a “greater than peer” pulling the strings. Which usually is more than an implication.
No one “hates” her. The reception was totally predictable, and justified, as it was very hurtful to many survivors who trust MIA to be in their corner, just as we expect not to find blogs by Torrey et al.
We should be fighting the real problems and issues, which need to be defined and analyzed, and have nothing to do with “personality disorders.”
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Cat’s “snowflake” comments are totally missing the point. They also contradict his normal attitude. Don’t know what’s going on, won’t speculate, at least not publicly. Maybe he’s having a bad day.
it would appear you can say you are a survivor and write whatever you want.
If so this would count as “identity politics” in my book, not as survivor self-determination, just as having Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court does not demonstrate that justice is “color blind.”
Well, are you?
CAT, you are being completely inconsistent with your own history here, it’s perplexing. Are you two personal friends or something? It seems you would be better off trying to set Abrianna straight in a friendly way, rather than trashing the survivors who are reacting in completely understandable and justified ways. Why no criticism of the way Abrianna’s article was published without warning her of the totally predictable reaction? It almost seems like there was an intent somewhere to spark this sort of division between survivors.
Technically it spans the spectrum, but it has a clear liberal slant editorially. Psychiatry is a liberal religion.
I don’t know the difference, but what you describe sounds beyond the pale for sure, even for America.
Did you really say good and evil are irrelevant concepts ?
In the context of this particular point, yes.
No, she’s shaming and insulting large categories of people, not just the specific people she has problems with, and generalizing like crazy, rather than trying the understand the larger context, which is that EVERYONE in the institution is a victim.
He’s talking about the forums, not the blog comments. He’s right about the spammers and scammers.
I don’t see anything in your posts that would be considered offensive, except of course to those who disagree. But I also wouldn’t assume that the moderator is the only one with access to the “delete” button.
In a non-dystopian world this would not be considered a “technique” but part of being human. Not much “research” needed when people’s misery isn’t mystified. You’re also right about the $$$, not even real medicine is interested in curing anything, what’s the point if that means no further need for pharmaceuticals?
Spam, please report.
Good to see you posting, your comments are few and far between but do not go unnoticed.
Thanks Bruce. The Empire continues to proudly flaunt its old raggedy clothes.
I’ve been defending you, and trying to give you the explanations you’ve been asking for, so that makes no sense. Guess I’ll call it a night.
You need to realize however that EVERYONE who is locked up is a victim of the system, even those who victimize others in response. This of course doen’t mean they should be allowed to do so.
Not clear who your above post is directed to.
No one hates you. Many people are frustrated by your trust in the psychiatric system and its labels, but this is because they see you embracing a lot of psychiatric bs that it took them a long time to see through, and they don’t want to see you banging your head against the wall. None of this is your fault, and I would understand you feeling sort of “set up” here and not prepared for the response.
Fair enough.
OK just confirmed it myself using google (startpage actually).
I believe I recently heard that ketamine was used as part of MK-Ultra. Anyone who can confirm this?
I don’t see any “political correctness” issues however, though the term is problematic anyway.
Could you summarize it? After seeing the way the article reads I didn’t see any reason to check the website out, I see Abrianna as someone whose anti-psychiatry consciousness needs a lot of nurturing before she’s ready to educate others. Anyway, most americans have zilch political consciousness compared to the rest of the world. Anything you would quote as an example of what you mean?
You can say that because you’ve developed some callouses personally, still you must admit that discussing people’s labels and “disorders” as though they are real things, and arguing about this one vs. that one, would make a lot of people here cringe in any circumstance. But like I said, I blame MIA here, I don’t think that’s extreme or unfair.
Bramble, KS, Rachel & all, no reason to be apologetic OR under fire for reacting to the many “triggering” statements in the article validating psychiatric labeling, etc., and taking an “othering” attitude towards other inmates.
I do believe that Abrianna has been done a disservice by MIA editors, who unlike her should have known what the (predictable and justifiable) reaction on the part of many survivors would be. So we should probably just let it go at that and welcome Abrianna into the discussion, as none of these issues started with her.
Doesn’t Mindfreedom still recommend “good” shrinks? Don’t know who’s running it these days but if so I would consider that irresponsible, and not something to expose vulnerable people to.
Good and evil are irrelevant concepts, we’re talking more “safe” vs. “destructive.” The “mental health system” IS the psychiatric system, so this is not a valid distinction.
To expand, I think they both reflect both qualities. Szasz was not simply a Spockian intellectual, if you read some of his less commonly referred to writing I think you’ll see that his was highly upset by and passionately dedicated to fighting psychiatric oppression. (That of course doesn’t mean he was as good a political analyst or organizer as he was at deconstructing psychiatry. We all have our strong & weak points.)
As for Breggin, I’ve written lots of words in his praise, so I think some honest criticism at times is only appropriate.
Sure. They are both fabrications. Think about it — where would a doctor find the “mind” when operating on someone’s brain? A mind is not a physical thing, so it cannot be ill, “mental illness” is a figure of speech; however it is concretized when used by psychiatry to make people think they are dealing with actual diseases, rather than figures of speech, or metaphors. Real diseases can only afflict actual bodily systems, organs, etc. This is what people mean when they say “mental illness” doesn’t exist, and why it is always in quotes. It doesn’t mean that what you are experiencing doesn’t exist.
Individuals diagnosed with a psychotic disorder are 4-6 times more likely than the general population to experience victimization.
Being “diagnosed with a psychotic disorder” IS victimization. So make that 100% of the total, however that calculates.
Then stop insulting people you don’t know (and naming those you do), and speak more in generalities. You’ll get more support that way.
I think that’s demeaning to both. You really seem down on Szasz lately.
The system is highly aware of this, which is why it fears a revolution of the “people in general.” Enter psychiatry to mystify their alienation.
OK sure. It’s taking me forever to scroll down this far anyway.
Quotes like this are inconvenient to the general narrative about cold-blooded godless revolutionaries, so you don’t hear them that often. Or about how after being captured in Bolivia CIA-controlled soldiers/mercenaries tortured Che before executing him. But I digress…
Maybe I what?
Was there a revolution in the Middle East I missed? Or do we literally live on different planets? (That would explain a lot actually.)
Actually I guess I shouldn’t assume everyone knows the Che Guevara quote I’m talking about, forgot it’s mostly white americans here:
“At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality.”
― Ernesto “Che” Guevara
I’m reporting all these comments, they’re obviously personal attacks.
You know Steve real well, huh? 🙁
Right on bro! (As they say.) I wasn’t even going to comment any more till I saw this.
Resistance is one of the greatest expressions of love. And we know what Che said as well. Other than than, I again quote Abbie Hoffman: “Words are the ultimate in horseshit!” 🙂
Happy New Year Fred!
Glad the part about “liberal” mentality resonates with you. So many people actually think the “liberal/conservative” framework is the only paradigm for political debate, when it’s really just a matter of style, i.e “good cop-bad cop.”
Yin/yang. Love and rage (forget the “righteous indignation”). Neither is more essential than the other.
Yeah but I bet the most essential part of all that, the part that you had never heard before, was the exposure and deconstruction of psychiatric assault by a psychiatrist. That’s the part I’ve been missing in his articles lately, this isn’t the first.
Regardless, imploring victims of a toxic system to respond with “love” is a pretty simplistic and privileged attitude, and absolutely a form of victim blaming (thanks for validating that KS). Besides, many people thoughout history have had nothing but love in the hearts as they charged into battle.
Let me repeat before it’s too late and the article slips away — why is this not still considered one of the “most popular” blogs?
This is a really important point to you? 🙂
I was just going to say that. And WHY are these people theoretically “unable to receive love”? Sounds like the kind of thing I might have once said to or about a girlfriend, without a clue as to how sexist, invalidating and generally obnoxious I was being.
@Sandra, why are you changing the subject? You’re the only one here talking about hatred. There IS lots of division, that’s how capitalism stays in power, and yes, some of it is being deliberately stoked. We need to sort out the real divisions from the false ones, and especially those which are being opportunistically promoted by faux “progressives” and right wing “Democratic” neoliberals, who suck in idealistic people then disillusion them. And we need to understand that the root of the “love” problem is that capitalism and alienated labor are incompatible with love; too much love is bad for business.
Have you seen the updated version of “The Day The Earth Stood Still” where it had been decided to “save the planet” — by eliminating the human race?
Rachel, Peter Breggin and his work stretch back DECADES prior to MIA, so it doesn’t matter where he says things so much as what he says. (These columns also appear in his alerts, on his website and probably elsewhere.)
Breggin IS and always has been an activist, to the degree any psychiatrist can be, and his work is not defined solely by what he puts on MIA. If he were just another schmaltzy liberal pontificator I wouldn’t have much of a reaction to this article either way. But some people consider him to be anti-psychiatry, so this is the context of my concerns.
A number of people say Breggin has been becoming increasingly more right-wing over the past several decades (some ascribe this to his reaction to 9/11). So I think I need to speak up here. If anyone sees Richard Lewis posting, please direct him here. And everyone else please don’t waste your time trying to convince me of the power of love, as that’s not what this is about.
So should we treat the person diagnosed with “social adversity disorder” or the system which creates it?
This is serious — it’s too late to save the environment, we need to find a drug specific to “ecological grief,” and FAST!!!
Oh well, guess even Frank doesn’t get why I’m raising the red flags here, still hoping Richard will show up. Glad Dragonslayer understands, as do most of those with whom I correspond offline who no longer consider MIA their priority. I can hear now the simplistic interpretations of my statements bouncing around in many people’s heads (“Look — Oldhead is trashing love!” 🙂 ). But I can’t concern myself with that.
Accusing people of being responsible for their oppression, whatever form it may take, by being “unable to accept love” is victim blaming of the highest order. Many will rush to insist “that’s not what he’s saying,” but that’s how it comes across. I still think Breggin is conflating his personal life with that of the movement. (Guess we’ll never know as he never responds to comments.)
The most sincere forms of love are expressed through action. Poetry and prose come in a distant second, as enjoyable as they can be.
Happy New Year Dragonslayer — wasn’t expecting much backup here, even invited a few people to come watch me get pilloried; sometimes support comes from the most unexpected places.
Those who get Breggin’s alerts are probably aware that he & his wife have a new guru of sorts and are in an inspired state of existence at this moment in their personal lives, so I don’t want to begrudge them that; still this doesn’t really translate into any new insights or strategies with which to fight psychiatry, or the general state of alienation under late stage capitalism which engenders this supposed “inability” to love. Love is not a commodity or something that needs to be “learned” in a society based on meeting human needs and not corporate profit projections.
The reality is that our world is mad. From a middle class (“normal”) American perspective, we are crazy for adopting the lifestyle of materialism and hedonism.
Who is this “we,” guy? Speak for yourself please. (Are you also part of the “we” that’s occupying Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria?) And if you’ve adopted a crazy lifestyle why are you counseling others? Do you consider being a “middle class” American (I think you left out white) “normal”? So many questions…
How did this article and discussion fall off the “Favorites” list? — it’s the longest-running discussion here!
Disagreements aside, congrats to Ektarina for stimulating the discussion.
So where is everybody?
The first thing to notice when looking at these five ‘studies’ is that the pharmaceutical company, Lundbeck, funded all of them
Probably the only truly significant date necessary. Still I read on to learn of the “pro”-AD study which offers no actual data, and the rabbit hole allusion became utterly apt. Maybe future studies can be based on nothing but algorithms, like with stocks.
Contributory injustice, in philosophical parlance, occurs when a marginalized group’s explanations for their marginalization are summarily dismissed or ignored
Wait a minute — that’s the PURPOSE of psychiatry, isn’t it? — especially when those explanations hold outside forces responsible for the problems at hand, rather than their being considered “personal” problems. Maybe “contributory injustice” could be employed as a synonym/euphemism for psychiatry itself?
Science is based on the assumption that there is an objective reality that can be studied and understood independent of the person observing it.
An assumption that quantum theory blows away, if one is to accept it. It contends that the existence of an observer — however hidden or remote — adds a quality to the process being studied which changes the result.
The brain takes it’s orders from the mind, not vice versa, I think that much is pretty obvious.
Then they take all these desperate, miserable, confused, broke, angry people, mix a few “miscellaneous” folks like you in just for kicks, drop the whole shebang next to Joe & Jane with their mortgage & the kids, and want to talk about their bigotry, and “stigma.” Plenty of victim-blaming to go around at all levels, with the perpetrators pulling the strings.
What diverted the thread was not an expressed concern of the author herself, but a preemptive worry by Richard that she wouldn’t be able to handle a rather mundane point I was making about the term “distraction.” So a molehill turned into a mountain, which I actually attempted to correct, if you’ll note the next thread.
Yeah yeah. We don’t need another “enlightened” shrink, we need a fighter against psychiatry, and please spare me all the flowery rhetoric. It’s not one of my favorite concepts, but this to me is truly a form of victim blaming. (Where are Richard and Frank when you need them?)
Dr. Breggin, still looking forward (hopefully) to more of your expert exposes of drugging and mass shootings. Will your 2nd honeymoon be over soon? Hoping to hear you again on Coast to Coast!
Because masculine men are harder to control under socialism.
That’s a bizarre statement, even accepting whatever your definition of “masculine” may be, which is a social definition anyway, not something ingrained in one sex or the other. I doubt that your definition of “socialism” holds water either, but that’s a common problem, not just yours.
I would still be interested in what you’re saying, if you could elaborate a little better.
P.S. There are a lot of phony “leftists” out there.
Madness is such a subjective subject because it’s socially constructed.
Well, yeah, a socially constructed abstraction, like “gender.” “Madness,” like “mental illness,” belongs in quotation marks. But its subjectivity is found in the fact that it means something different to pretty much everyone who uses it.
Richard — not that I disagree, but I think “we” also need to be careful about how the term “prison industrial complex” is often appropriated and tacked on to other concerns. “Prison Industrial Complex” is a term that has long been used by the prison movement, and as most prisoners are Black, at least proportionally speaking, I am very wary of a bunch of “middle class” white people appropriating (or misappropriating) the term for their own pet causes.
I believe that it would be legitimate and consistent with the understanding of what “Prison Industrial Complex” actually means for us to adopt the term “Prison/Psychiatric Industrial Complex,” which consolidates the two forms of repression without making it sound competitive between “our” movement and “their” movement, because if it’s not all the same movement something is essentially wrong.
All corporate news has always been fake, so the whole “fake news” meme is beside the point. To me this is just more liberals in denial about why their deceptive and corrupt agenda was rejected. They need a scapegoat for when the Russia hoax finally falls flat.
This doesn’t mean that I “support” Trump any more than I do the rest, but I do see him as less dangerous. Partially because so far he’s killed far less people than Bush/Obama/ Clinton(s). But I think also he’s a decent wrench in the neoliberal/neoconservative works, partially by being so blatant when they want him to whisper and use buzzwords. But he’s a rogue billionaire from what I can see, not one of the old boy network, and without as much power as the more corporate billionaires and their politicians despite his bluster and the “progressive” hysteria about him being the antichrist or whatever. It helps us when we can play them off against one another, but so far no one seems to realize that this is the time for truly “progressive” people to make a move beyond the hypocritical posturings of liberal Democrats and other corporate flunkies, i.e. when they’re semi-paralyzed by all the craziness. But since “progressives” generally don’t have a revolutionary bone in their bodies, this never seems to cross their minds.
This is such bullshit. Not even worth arguing about.
Actually I don’t think I do. People talk all sorts of shit, which is why we have the capacity for eye-rolling.
It’s not just a semantic problem, it’s deception, plain & simple. “Mental illness” is impossible; however the voice of authority on such questions is not the psychiatric “researcher,” it would be your high school English teacher, or your college linguistics instructor.
Not “especially in the U.S.,” but period.
The “middle class” has always been an illusion btw.
Sadly we are witnessing the daily loss of our democracy here in the US.
Yeah, neoliberals suck.
I’m truly shocked that with all the hype we’ve been hearing for years, “Open Dialogue” is actually a drugging-based operation, just like all the others. Has this ever been mentioned before?
Yes.
I don’t think we can rely on professionals alone to bring much change to psychiatric systems.
Especially when the only relevant change would be their elimination.
That’s insane. The spiel about Open Dialogue I thought included it being drug-free. So it’s more like getting hit by a baseball bat 3 times instead of 8. Progress?
What is the real goal of inpatient psychiatric care? Especially for underserved populations, what is the difference between the “inpatient psychiatric unit” and a prison?
The purpose of psychiatry is social control. Prisons are prisons, no matter what the name. Sorry you spent so much time & money training to be a “counselor.” But at least you have the experience with which to expose the reality from the inside, should you choose. When I was locked up I used to tell myself that the purpose of this was to learn what the experience was like so that I could expose it later.
P.S. “Hospitals,” like minds, cannot be “sick”; they are oppressive.
Hey I remember this blog. Looks like it got lost in the melodrama.
ALL psychiatric drug research is bogus, all psychiatric research period is invalid since it presupposes the existence of something called “mental illness,” which is a literal impossibility.
Great, so 36% of “patients” are on psych drugs when they’re finished “treatment.” This is the new-fangled “alternative”? Sounds like the cancer industry pronouncing people “cured” if they live for 5 years.
There is no such thing as a “mental hospital,” we are talking about psychiatric prisons. They should not exist at all. Period.
Someone, anyone — Can we PLEASE close this comments section now? It can serve no further purpose. And more pertinent blogs are being ignored.
Abrianna had NO idea she was hurting people’s feelings
Yet when she was informed that she WAS she refused to hear it. So I think it’s time to cease with the blaming, the apologizing, and this discussion in general. Almost none of the other blogs have any new comments due to this tabloid-style distraction.
Don’t know who that is. But I thought it had been long established that it’s not about “good” vs. “bad” shrinks; it’s about a bad system. (That doesn’t mean that “nice” shrinks should be given a pass.)
MIA made a mistake here. I think that much has been recognized, so there’s no need to act like this is something systemic.
There IS a better way — Abrianna should have been allowed to grow her understanding of the issues before being presented as an “authority.” People’s reactions here are completely legitimate, but it’s not her fault. At least not initially.
Something seems to be going on with you, I repeat. Usually your posts are pretty on target, but you’re pulling your punches here. And don’t pretend this is about “censorship.” Personal insults are not allowed here, that’s all. This includes insulting groups of people who have been labeled.
I don’t see how this is a response to what I just said.
It makes no difference whatever what individuals’ intentions are, it’s their actions we are concerned with. Those who are unaware of the destruction they sow are at least as, if not more dangerous, than those who are deliberately malevolent. It’s the primarily the mentality that needs to be exposed and confronted.
Alex, how can you possibly call any of this “dialogue”? This is a juvenile food fight.
Sorry about your dog, that sucks.
Violent inmates are separated from nonviolent ones in most prisons, psychiatric or otherwise, so this much is a no-brainer; I doubt anyone would disagree.
Good to see articles like this emerging. However I wish Laura D and others would emphasize that the problem is not simply psychiatric drugs but psychiatry itself, and the system it supports.
Not saying it’s what your article is about, it’s what the debate is about.
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You’re going to hate me — please understand I’m not arguing about the issue at hand and tend to agree with you here — but as a matter of consistency, “schizophrenic” is a label ascribed to people by psychiatry, which they “carry”; but “psychiatrist” is a self-proclaimed identity, not an externally-imposed “label” that they “carry.” But I know you didn’t write the guidelines. 🙂
No Sam, it’s not about correct terminology in this case; it’s about attitude.
A very immature and selfish attitude. But I guess that’s obvious.
Personality disordered people are really good at manipulating people into believing they are the worst of all victims.
There is no such thing as a “personality disordered person” other than as a personal judgement. This is a psychiatric label, a form of hate speech. You first accept this meaningless label as real, then go on to describe the “characteristics” of those you apply it to. This is circular logic.
Slightly off the subject, but “peer” is a problematic term, both as it often manifests in practice and semantically, as it implies a “greater than peer” pulling the strings. Which usually is more than an implication.
No one “hates” her. The reception was totally predictable, and justified, as it was very hurtful to many survivors who trust MIA to be in their corner, just as we expect not to find blogs by Torrey et al.
We should be fighting the real problems and issues, which need to be defined and analyzed, and have nothing to do with “personality disorders.”
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Cat’s “snowflake” comments are totally missing the point. They also contradict his normal attitude. Don’t know what’s going on, won’t speculate, at least not publicly. Maybe he’s having a bad day.
it would appear you can say you are a survivor and write whatever you want.
If so this would count as “identity politics” in my book, not as survivor self-determination, just as having Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court does not demonstrate that justice is “color blind.”
Well, are you?
CAT, you are being completely inconsistent with your own history here, it’s perplexing. Are you two personal friends or something? It seems you would be better off trying to set Abrianna straight in a friendly way, rather than trashing the survivors who are reacting in completely understandable and justified ways. Why no criticism of the way Abrianna’s article was published without warning her of the totally predictable reaction? It almost seems like there was an intent somewhere to spark this sort of division between survivors.
Technically it spans the spectrum, but it has a clear liberal slant editorially. Psychiatry is a liberal religion.
I don’t know the difference, but what you describe sounds beyond the pale for sure, even for America.
Did you really say good and evil are irrelevant concepts ?
In the context of this particular point, yes.
No, she’s shaming and insulting large categories of people, not just the specific people she has problems with, and generalizing like crazy, rather than trying the understand the larger context, which is that EVERYONE in the institution is a victim.
He’s talking about the forums, not the blog comments. He’s right about the spammers and scammers.
I don’t see anything in your posts that would be considered offensive, except of course to those who disagree. But I also wouldn’t assume that the moderator is the only one with access to the “delete” button.
In a non-dystopian world this would not be considered a “technique” but part of being human. Not much “research” needed when people’s misery isn’t mystified. You’re also right about the $$$, not even real medicine is interested in curing anything, what’s the point if that means no further need for pharmaceuticals?
Spam, please report.
Good to see you posting, your comments are few and far between but do not go unnoticed.
Thanks Bruce. The Empire continues to proudly flaunt its old raggedy clothes.
I’ve been defending you, and trying to give you the explanations you’ve been asking for, so that makes no sense. Guess I’ll call it a night.
You need to realize however that EVERYONE who is locked up is a victim of the system, even those who victimize others in response. This of course doen’t mean they should be allowed to do so.
Not clear who your above post is directed to.
No one hates you. Many people are frustrated by your trust in the psychiatric system and its labels, but this is because they see you embracing a lot of psychiatric bs that it took them a long time to see through, and they don’t want to see you banging your head against the wall. None of this is your fault, and I would understand you feeling sort of “set up” here and not prepared for the response.
Fair enough.
OK just confirmed it myself using google (startpage actually).
I believe I recently heard that ketamine was used as part of MK-Ultra. Anyone who can confirm this?
I don’t see any “political correctness” issues however, though the term is problematic anyway.
Could you summarize it? After seeing the way the article reads I didn’t see any reason to check the website out, I see Abrianna as someone whose anti-psychiatry consciousness needs a lot of nurturing before she’s ready to educate others. Anyway, most americans have zilch political consciousness compared to the rest of the world. Anything you would quote as an example of what you mean?
You can say that because you’ve developed some callouses personally, still you must admit that discussing people’s labels and “disorders” as though they are real things, and arguing about this one vs. that one, would make a lot of people here cringe in any circumstance. But like I said, I blame MIA here, I don’t think that’s extreme or unfair.
Bramble, KS, Rachel & all, no reason to be apologetic OR under fire for reacting to the many “triggering” statements in the article validating psychiatric labeling, etc., and taking an “othering” attitude towards other inmates.
I do believe that Abrianna has been done a disservice by MIA editors, who unlike her should have known what the (predictable and justifiable) reaction on the part of many survivors would be. So we should probably just let it go at that and welcome Abrianna into the discussion, as none of these issues started with her.
Doesn’t Mindfreedom still recommend “good” shrinks? Don’t know who’s running it these days but if so I would consider that irresponsible, and not something to expose vulnerable people to.
Good and evil are irrelevant concepts, we’re talking more “safe” vs. “destructive.” The “mental health system” IS the psychiatric system, so this is not a valid distinction.
To expand, I think they both reflect both qualities. Szasz was not simply a Spockian intellectual, if you read some of his less commonly referred to writing I think you’ll see that his was highly upset by and passionately dedicated to fighting psychiatric oppression. (That of course doesn’t mean he was as good a political analyst or organizer as he was at deconstructing psychiatry. We all have our strong & weak points.)
As for Breggin, I’ve written lots of words in his praise, so I think some honest criticism at times is only appropriate.
Sure. They are both fabrications. Think about it — where would a doctor find the “mind” when operating on someone’s brain? A mind is not a physical thing, so it cannot be ill, “mental illness” is a figure of speech; however it is concretized when used by psychiatry to make people think they are dealing with actual diseases, rather than figures of speech, or metaphors. Real diseases can only afflict actual bodily systems, organs, etc. This is what people mean when they say “mental illness” doesn’t exist, and why it is always in quotes. It doesn’t mean that what you are experiencing doesn’t exist.
Individuals diagnosed with a psychotic disorder are 4-6 times more likely than the general population to experience victimization.
Being “diagnosed with a psychotic disorder” IS victimization. So make that 100% of the total, however that calculates.
Then stop insulting people you don’t know (and naming those you do), and speak more in generalities. You’ll get more support that way.
I think that’s demeaning to both. You really seem down on Szasz lately.
The system is highly aware of this, which is why it fears a revolution of the “people in general.” Enter psychiatry to mystify their alienation.
OK sure. It’s taking me forever to scroll down this far anyway.
Quotes like this are inconvenient to the general narrative about cold-blooded godless revolutionaries, so you don’t hear them that often. Or about how after being captured in Bolivia CIA-controlled soldiers/mercenaries tortured Che before executing him. But I digress…
Maybe I what?
Was there a revolution in the Middle East I missed? Or do we literally live on different planets? (That would explain a lot actually.)
Actually I guess I shouldn’t assume everyone knows the Che Guevara quote I’m talking about, forgot it’s mostly white americans here:
“At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality.”
― Ernesto “Che” Guevara
I’m reporting all these comments, they’re obviously personal attacks.
You know Steve real well, huh? 🙁
Right on bro! (As they say.) I wasn’t even going to comment any more till I saw this.
Resistance is one of the greatest expressions of love. And we know what Che said as well. Other than than, I again quote Abbie Hoffman: “Words are the ultimate in horseshit!” 🙂
Happy New Year Fred!
Glad the part about “liberal” mentality resonates with you. So many people actually think the “liberal/conservative” framework is the only paradigm for political debate, when it’s really just a matter of style, i.e “good cop-bad cop.”
Yin/yang. Love and rage (forget the “righteous indignation”). Neither is more essential than the other.
Yeah but I bet the most essential part of all that, the part that you had never heard before, was the exposure and deconstruction of psychiatric assault by a psychiatrist. That’s the part I’ve been missing in his articles lately, this isn’t the first.
Regardless, imploring victims of a toxic system to respond with “love” is a pretty simplistic and privileged attitude, and absolutely a form of victim blaming (thanks for validating that KS). Besides, many people thoughout history have had nothing but love in the hearts as they charged into battle.
Let me repeat before it’s too late and the article slips away — why is this not still considered one of the “most popular” blogs?
This is a really important point to you? 🙂
I was just going to say that. And WHY are these people theoretically “unable to receive love”? Sounds like the kind of thing I might have once said to or about a girlfriend, without a clue as to how sexist, invalidating and generally obnoxious I was being.
@Sandra, why are you changing the subject? You’re the only one here talking about hatred. There IS lots of division, that’s how capitalism stays in power, and yes, some of it is being deliberately stoked. We need to sort out the real divisions from the false ones, and especially those which are being opportunistically promoted by faux “progressives” and right wing “Democratic” neoliberals, who suck in idealistic people then disillusion them. And we need to understand that the root of the “love” problem is that capitalism and alienated labor are incompatible with love; too much love is bad for business.
Have you seen the updated version of “The Day The Earth Stood Still” where it had been decided to “save the planet” — by eliminating the human race?
Rachel, Peter Breggin and his work stretch back DECADES prior to MIA, so it doesn’t matter where he says things so much as what he says. (These columns also appear in his alerts, on his website and probably elsewhere.)
Breggin IS and always has been an activist, to the degree any psychiatrist can be, and his work is not defined solely by what he puts on MIA. If he were just another schmaltzy liberal pontificator I wouldn’t have much of a reaction to this article either way. But some people consider him to be anti-psychiatry, so this is the context of my concerns.
A number of people say Breggin has been becoming increasingly more right-wing over the past several decades (some ascribe this to his reaction to 9/11). So I think I need to speak up here. If anyone sees Richard Lewis posting, please direct him here. And everyone else please don’t waste your time trying to convince me of the power of love, as that’s not what this is about.
So should we treat the person diagnosed with “social adversity disorder” or the system which creates it?
This is serious — it’s too late to save the environment, we need to find a drug specific to “ecological grief,” and FAST!!!
Oh well, guess even Frank doesn’t get why I’m raising the red flags here, still hoping Richard will show up. Glad Dragonslayer understands, as do most of those with whom I correspond offline who no longer consider MIA their priority. I can hear now the simplistic interpretations of my statements bouncing around in many people’s heads (“Look — Oldhead is trashing love!” 🙂 ). But I can’t concern myself with that.
Accusing people of being responsible for their oppression, whatever form it may take, by being “unable to accept love” is victim blaming of the highest order. Many will rush to insist “that’s not what he’s saying,” but that’s how it comes across. I still think Breggin is conflating his personal life with that of the movement. (Guess we’ll never know as he never responds to comments.)
The most sincere forms of love are expressed through action. Poetry and prose come in a distant second, as enjoyable as they can be.
Happy New Year Dragonslayer — wasn’t expecting much backup here, even invited a few people to come watch me get pilloried; sometimes support comes from the most unexpected places.
Those who get Breggin’s alerts are probably aware that he & his wife have a new guru of sorts and are in an inspired state of existence at this moment in their personal lives, so I don’t want to begrudge them that; still this doesn’t really translate into any new insights or strategies with which to fight psychiatry, or the general state of alienation under late stage capitalism which engenders this supposed “inability” to love. Love is not a commodity or something that needs to be “learned” in a society based on meeting human needs and not corporate profit projections.
The reality is that our world is mad. From a middle class (“normal”) American perspective, we are crazy for adopting the lifestyle of materialism and hedonism.
Who is this “we,” guy? Speak for yourself please. (Are you also part of the “we” that’s occupying Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria?) And if you’ve adopted a crazy lifestyle why are you counseling others? Do you consider being a “middle class” American (I think you left out white) “normal”? So many questions…
How did this article and discussion fall off the “Favorites” list? — it’s the longest-running discussion here!
Disagreements aside, congrats to Ektarina for stimulating the discussion.
So where is everybody?
The first thing to notice when looking at these five ‘studies’ is that the pharmaceutical company, Lundbeck, funded all of them
Probably the only truly significant date necessary. Still I read on to learn of the “pro”-AD study which offers no actual data, and the rabbit hole allusion became utterly apt. Maybe future studies can be based on nothing but algorithms, like with stocks.
Contributory injustice, in philosophical parlance, occurs when a marginalized group’s explanations for their marginalization are summarily dismissed or ignored
Wait a minute — that’s the PURPOSE of psychiatry, isn’t it? — especially when those explanations hold outside forces responsible for the problems at hand, rather than their being considered “personal” problems. Maybe “contributory injustice” could be employed as a synonym/euphemism for psychiatry itself?
Science is based on the assumption that there is an objective reality that can be studied and understood independent of the person observing it.
An assumption that quantum theory blows away, if one is to accept it. It contends that the existence of an observer — however hidden or remote — adds a quality to the process being studied which changes the result.
The brain takes it’s orders from the mind, not vice versa, I think that much is pretty obvious.
Then they take all these desperate, miserable, confused, broke, angry people, mix a few “miscellaneous” folks like you in just for kicks, drop the whole shebang next to Joe & Jane with their mortgage & the kids, and want to talk about their bigotry, and “stigma.” Plenty of victim-blaming to go around at all levels, with the perpetrators pulling the strings.
What diverted the thread was not an expressed concern of the author herself, but a preemptive worry by Richard that she wouldn’t be able to handle a rather mundane point I was making about the term “distraction.” So a molehill turned into a mountain, which I actually attempted to correct, if you’ll note the next thread.
Yeah yeah. We don’t need another “enlightened” shrink, we need a fighter against psychiatry, and please spare me all the flowery rhetoric. It’s not one of my favorite concepts, but this to me is truly a form of victim blaming. (Where are Richard and Frank when you need them?)
Dr. Breggin, still looking forward (hopefully) to more of your expert exposes of drugging and mass shootings. Will your 2nd honeymoon be over soon? Hoping to hear you again on Coast to Coast!
Because masculine men are harder to control under socialism.
That’s a bizarre statement, even accepting whatever your definition of “masculine” may be, which is a social definition anyway, not something ingrained in one sex or the other. I doubt that your definition of “socialism” holds water either, but that’s a common problem, not just yours.
I would still be interested in what you’re saying, if you could elaborate a little better.
P.S. There are a lot of phony “leftists” out there.
Madness is such a subjective subject because it’s socially constructed.
Well, yeah, a socially constructed abstraction, like “gender.” “Madness,” like “mental illness,” belongs in quotation marks. But its subjectivity is found in the fact that it means something different to pretty much everyone who uses it.