Wednesday, March 29, 2017

Comments by Stephen Gilbert

Showing 100 of 2326 comments. Show all.

  • Oh thank you for setting me so straight on all of this. I base a lot of my understanding on my grandmother who was a Wise Woman and healer of an indigenous tribe here in America. She was of the Lakota nation, from one of the reservations in South Dakota.

  • All I know is this: I took these damned drugs long enough to know that they were extremely detrimental to me. I will never touch another one of these devil’s tic tacs, no matter what. They turned me into a zombie who was separated from his feelings and emotions; an uncaring and detached person who didn’t care what was happening in life around him. And I didn’t care about what was happening to others around me either; this was somewhat detrimental since I was a hospital chaplain.

    Another thing that I know is that depression is not a disease or an illness. This is one of the two great lies perpetuated by drug companies and psychiatry about these drugs; they’re supposedly a “treatment” for an illness or disease. The other great lie is that they cure some kind of serotonin imbalance in the brain. This is the great lie put out by drug companies and psychiatry. When dealing with me do not, under any circumstances, try to foist these two lies off on me because you won’t like the response that you receive.

    I am for free choice when it comes to the use of psychiatric drugs. I will never, ever touch the damned things ever gain but if others believe that they help them and want to take them then I support their decision. But, I hope that before they make any such decision that they will investigate the effects of these drugs on the health and lives of human beings.

    So, they can produce all the studies of this kind that they want, but it will not convince me that they are something that I should ever take. I remember what my life was like while under the influence of these so-called “antidepressants”, a supposed cure for a disease that doesn’t exist.

  • I’m now of the opinion that people, especially parents, need to cook everything from scratch. It takes lots of time but you can bake your own bread (although this doesn’t take care of the gluten thing) and you can cook your own fresh vegetables and fruits so that you can be sure that there are no chemicals of any kind added to things. You can monitor the amount of sugar and fat that goes into the food that is eaten in your household. I don’t know what to do about meat since so much of it has antibiotics in it. We grew our own animals to butcher and never fed them anything but grains and grass.

    I was raised in a family that had a large garden, baked it’s own bread, and milked its own cow for milk, butter, and cheese. We had our own chickens for meat and eggs and they provided great manure for our garden. It was a lot of work but I think that my family was healthier than today when everything you lay your hands on has some kind of chemical in to for preservation or to extend shelf life. Those things just can’t be good for people.

  • It interests me that you refer to your son as “very sick” when talking about his mood swings and rages. I just can’t bring myself to refer to behavior as “sickness” even when it’s very challenging for the parent.

    What else was going on in his life when all of these difficulties started? What kind of a baby was he when you brought him home from the hospital? Was he fussy from the beginning or was he laid back? How did he act when you took him to kindergarten for the first time? How did he deal with new challenges and new people as a baby and small child? What kind of personality did he have as a small child?

    I am very glad for him that you got him off those damned drugs that are so destructive of peoples’ lives and tat he’s doing well these days. I’m glad that you followed your own instincts as a mother and not what some other doctor, especially a psychiatrist, wanted you to do.

  • Great points and all too true. I worked in a large nursing home/retirement center and saw this happen all the time.

    I am older and it’s a constant battle with my doctor about things that she wants to put me on, like statins. I actually fired one doctor because he told me point blank to my face that I would absolutely take the statins that he prescribed! When I said that I would not take them he actually told me that I had no choice in the matter and at that point I pointed to my feet and said, “Oh yes I do! Watch this!” I then got up, walked out of the exam room and out of his office. I refused to pay the bill for the visit where I was verbally abused by the doctor!

  • The field of medicine is the third largest killer of Americans today, if I remember correctly. It’s not just psychiatry that is out of control, although psychiatry is probably the worst specialty where it comes to an unholy marriage with drug companies. Medicine in general has gone over the edge with a drug for this and a drug for that. I believe that this should make us stop and do some thinking about what is going on. Everything is a disease today, at least according to the drug companies. The drug companies are doing their best to convince doctors that their main objective is to prescribe, prescribe, prescribe……Dry eyes is now a disease! Television constantly advertises “medicines” for everything; while watching the early news this morning I counted six commercials for drugs that dealt with everything from psoriasis to dry eyes to congestive heart failure to constipation due to opioids to leaky bladder to copd to allergies to asthma.

  • I’ve never seen any form of psychotherapy as the “cure”. I’ve always seen any therapy as a tool that an individual can use to help effect change in their lives. The “cure” is to be found within the individual and not in any tool. No therapy, in my opinion, can be the end all and be all and in fact, the two best therapists I’ve known use a combination of many things and not just one thing, to walk with people in changing their lives.

    And even decent and good therapies can be taken over by the system so that they become something that they were never intended to be.

  • This is not therapy in any shape or form. It is bigotry and discrimination running rampant across peoples’ civil and human rights.

    Quoting from a religious book such as the Bible as proof that gay people should be discriminated against does not understand how the Bible was created and why it was created. Literal interpretation of things in Hebrew Scriptures, known among Christians as the Old Testament, only leads to bigotry and hatred all done in the name of God. Sorry, I believe that this is a misuse of scripture.

    And, the same people who send their kids to these “Christian” camps in order to change their sexual orientation, are the same people who will immediately claim that they know and love Jesus. I beg to differ with them. The teaching of Jesus is above that of the Hebrew Scriptures for those who call themselves Christians. “Love one another as I have loved you, ” just doesn’t smack of the hatred that is found in these organizations, nor does “Judge not lest you be judged in the same manner”, nor “Why do you point out the splinter in your brother’s eye when you have a log sticking in your own”.

    I am no longer a Christian but I do believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus the Christ as best as I can. Jesus says absolutely nothing about sexual orientation or who one loves or any of that. He does have a lot of very scathing things to say about hypocrites and hateful attitudes towards others. He even tells a little story about how not everyone who yells, “Lord, Lord……” will get into heaven.

  • But in indigenous cultures, past and present, it is often through the experience of psychosis, and recovering from that experience, that constitutes the guidelines for becoming a shaman.

    I would describe shamans as spiritual rather than magical, although they may use some things that look to be “magic” in some instances to our Western eyes. Shamans and how they are understood by their communities cannot be interpreted by western, colonial White European understanding.

  • And perhaps we are all god because we contain the one, transcendental, and eternal consciousness. Of course, this idea is the ultimate heresy for psychiatrists and exposes your “religiosity”, which is surely a sign of how terrible mentally ill you are. But every mystical tradition of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam teaches this as well as Hinduism and Buddhism.

  • I don’t believe that true shamans feel that they’re better or more gifted than anyone else. Real shamans don’t choose to be such. They are chosen by the fact that they’ve undergone a terrible illness and made it back again to this side of life. Generally, it’s thought that the illness is what we like to call an experience of “psychosis” and “mental illness”. In indigenous cultures you don’t choose to be the shaman of the community, the community chooses you because of your experience of going to the “other side” and being able to come back again.

    New age pop culture has done a real disservice to shamans. Now, everyone can be some kind of shaman after drinking ayahausca and having some “spiritual” experience. True shamans are rare these days.

  • I’m glad that you came back. I think you are the person who was posting Youtube videos that were not appropriate for what was being discussed. Am I correct or do I have you mixed up with someone else? It’s interesting that if you are that person today you are actually interacting with us and I think that’s a good thing. You’re obviously familiar with us since you site having watched us supposedly beat up on poor women who posted here.

    You have theories about what causes psychological and emotional distress and being out of touch with consensus reality. I’m not so sure that I agree with them but that’s not the point. We don’t have to agree about everything. I support people taking the drugs as long as they know what they’re doing by taking them. I myself will not take anything; but that doesn’t mean that we can’t discuss things here on this forum. Some people seem to get benefits from using psychiatric drugs; no one seems to understand why this is. You may be one of those people. But, there are many, many people for who the drugs are detrimental, detrimental in ways that even lead to death. Far too many people are forced to take the drugs, unlike you. You seem to have a lot of choice about whether or not you take them.

    I hope you continue to come here to discuss.

  • This is a good question.

    I think that people are just left hanging. Very few GP’s or psychiatrists will admit that there is no “chemical imbalance” to begin with and then when people develop real problems because of the damned drugs they’re told that what they are experiencing is no longer “depression”, they’re “bi-polar”. You get more labels which then lead to drugs like the so-called antipsychotics, which should actually be called neuroleptics or neurotoxins. And when you become suicidal or homicidal it’s your fault, not the fault of the drugs that caused a true chemical imbalance after you took them.

    Very few doctors know that these drugs cause withdrawal when you try to get off them and very few doctors, particularly psychiatrists even know how to begin titrating you off them. You’ve got to go to the internet and find good websites that can help you wean yourself off the damned drugs.

    Doctors and psychiatrists give these drugs to people and then want nothing to do with anything after everything falls apart for people in their care. You are in a Catch-22 situation once you start down the road to ingesting these things in hopes of finding some relief and health for yourself.

  • Exactly, and yet the doctors refuse to recognize that the very drugs that are supposed to help people are actually causing the problems. Working in the “hospital” where I do my co-worker and I often see this happening with many people on the units and yet the doctors state that this is “the result of their worsening illness of schizophrenia”, which then leads to the people getting more drugs! This is absolutely crazy and we watch it happening each and every day. It’s got to come to a stop soon.

  • I would hazard to say that all “antidepressant” use is without any strong scientific evidence since the use of these devil’s tic tacs is based on a myth about “chemical imbalances” that doesn’t exist. There never has been any real strong scientific evidence for “antidepressants”. They work no better than placebo. And the same thing goes for “antipsychotics”. They do not cure any chemical imbalances; they are nothing more than tranquilizers. It’s more proper to call them neuroleptics. In fact, both of these drugs cause chemical imbalances.

    Mama…..mama…..the emperor has no clothes!

  • The cookie cutter, one-size-fits-all” “treatment” is very likely the very cause of much of the rise in “illness”. Let’s face the facts. The recovery rate before the advent of thorazine and Haldol in the 50’s was at least 60%. The recovery rate today is about 15%, if we’re lucky. Psychiatry and the drug companies took something that was episodic and changed it into something that is now chronic and on-going. And it was done in the name of power and profits. How disgusting.

  • The tendency from my experience in working in two medical hospitals is that they extend the heroic measures when ordered not to.

    Roman Catholics are not about euthanizing the elderly and others. If anything they hold on to people. And as I stated before, what happens is very much determined by what doctor you have.

    Doctors have their own issues, whether they’re honest about it or not. Every once in a while I ran across a doctor who was honest with people and didn’t try to move them subtly towards doing more heroic efforts when it wasn’t going to change the outcome. Some doctors cannot stand having a patient die in their care, for many reasons. The reasons vary as much as the doctors you’re dealing with.

    A wise old nun once told me something that’s worth considering and understanding. In some cases, death is what brings healing to the person who is suffering.

  • It seems that there just has to be some kind of legal recourse for the parents in this case. What particularly bothers me is the fact that all of this was initiated by the school staff person. The boy was already in the “hospital” before the school even alerted his mother.

  • I agree.

    How do we protect children in their schools. Many schools have school psychologists who go out screening students all the time. What happens to parents when they refuse to allow this to be done to their children? How do we prepare children from innocently falling into the trap of being screened?

    This is just an attempt to widen the nets more in order to catch more people.

  • “We do not admit to any liability or wrongdoing……..” The usual refrain heard from these damned drug companies. We need to quit suing for money and start going for court trials with the ceo’s going to jail or prison. As long as all we do is fine them they’ll go merrily on about their business of selling fake “medicine” which ends up damaging or killing people and counting their profits that amount to billions.

    The fine for this company was nothing but chump change; just the price of doing business.

  • And could it be that these very “wonder drugs” known as the “antidepressants” actually end up causing the very thing that they’re supposed to treat? They’re certainly great for inducing a zombie state in the person taking them so that they are removed and cut off from their emotions and feelings. I would not call this creating a greater quality of life for people in distress. And we won’t even go into all the other things, like sexual dysfunction, possibility of heart attacks, and the horrendous withdrawal if and when a person tries to get off them.

  • The Church of Scientology was born one evening at a drunken card game held by science fiction writers. Hubbard was a mediocre, at least that’s my humble opinion, science fiction writer who stated that night that he was going to start a new religion. Everyone there laughed their behinds off and jeered him unmercifully. And then, years later, they had to acknowledge the existence of this group.

    It’s really galling to me that this group is the only one that is really doing anything to fight psychiatry at all. They peg things pretty accurately in thier “documentaries” that they put out against the specialty of medicine that practices quackery.

  • Interesting point. Only three percent of the patients in the hospital I’m talking about are Catholic’ they reflect the Catholic makeup of the state itself which isn’t heavily Catholic. Many of the doctors are not Catholic who practice there. I suspect that what happens to you depends heavily on the doctor that you have. What I’ve found in my own experience is that doctors in general have a difficult time letting a patient die with dignity and will try all kinds of things to not invoke the advanced directive. I sat with family members when doctors came in to find out what they wanted to do about making the decision to take their loved one off of life support. They chose their words in a way that often was not really honest about the situation and which gently nudged the family member to decide to not take the person off life support. It’s difficult to explain but I experienced it time after time. It was the rare doctor who came in and explained the facts clearly and then asked what the family member wanted to do. Often I would sit there with this perplexed look on my face when the doctor did this because the doctor and I both knew the patient’s situation wasn’t gong to end in their surviving and yet here the doctor was, not really being honest with the family member. It may be better now because this was when advanced directives were first introduced; perhaps things are better now.

    However, you are right in that bishops are pushing all kinds of backward looking things in health care these days. The Roman Catholic Church took a turn for the worse, in my humble opinion, with the papacies of the Polish guy and Benedict. Francis is trying to pull things back into the modern world but many American cardinals appointed by John-Paul II and Benedict are reacting against him, as well as the backward Curia staffed by so many Italians who want to control the papacy for themselves.

  • Exactly.

    Hinduism and Buddhism, along with the mystical traditions of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all state that we are all God. But we all know what happens when someone who has come to this experience and conclusion tries to explain this to a psychiatrist. This will get you at least another 45 days court ordered stay if you go around discussing this with anyone on any unit in any psychiatric facility in this country because you are obviously highly “delusional”, and probably a danger to yourself and others!

  • Robert

    I would have to agree with everything you stated about health care. I once worked in a hospital owned and run by an order of Catholic sisters. They truly attempted to reach out to any and all who needed care, even if one couldn’t pay. Then, the hospital became too much of a drain on their economy what with the fewer number of sisters in the order to keep things going.

    They sold their hospital to a large Catholic health conglomerate; it went around buying up smaller Catholic hospitals. Now, it’s a fancy hospital that charges an arm and a leg for everything and woe are you if you’re poor because you won’t be treated in their organization. The love and respect that the sisters showed to all is nowhere to be found. The dollar bill has replaced ministering to the health of all people in the community. And when you can’t pay they go after you with a vengeance.

  • Steve

    You ought to go and visit a geripsych unit somewhere. I would liken it to the old asylum system of bedlam. It’s unbelievable to say the least and very disturbing if you truly care about the elderly. The unit I visited had everyone locked in those damned geri-chairs and people were screaming and yelling and the staff just acted like nothing was amiss. When I was the nursing home chaplain I visited our residents who were in the hospital. We sent one of our ladies, who was known to be quite loud and very out of touch with her surroundings, to this geripsych unit and it was traumatizing for her. I felt so badly leaving her there in the middle of all that chaos and confusion. From then on I always advocated against sending anyone to one of these units.

  • It saddens me to hear what happened to your father.

    As a former hospital and nursing home chaplain I can say that this kind of experience is much more common than most people realize.

    Older people who don’t have anyone to stay with and speak for them in the hospital are up for grabs. It is imperative that someone be there at all times to make sure that everything is done properly for your loved one’s care. And by all means always be willing to question anything that doesn’t look or sound right to you. Yes, most of the time the staff get bent out of shape but that’s just fine, go ahead and question, question, question.

    Haldol is the drug of choice for most staff in dealing with older patients who are considered to be “difficult and noncompliant”, both in hospitals and nursing homes, but especially in nursing homes. Doctors are to blame for this since no medicines or drugs can be given to a person without a doctor’s order. This is true for both hospitals and nursing homes. Nursing home staff may push the doctor to write an order for a feisty nursing home patient or they get kind of a general blanket permission order for “just in case”. If a person is outspoken, especially about what they see as inadequate care for themselves, or if they won’t be immediately compliant with the wishes of staff, or if they talk back when told to do something, they will end up on Haldol pronto.

    Then, if the family doesn’t question such an order the person ends up locked in a geriatrics chair; a big chair that reclines and which has a fold over table top that locks in place, keeping the person prisoner in the chair often for hours at a time. The person goes from being a vibrant and life-filled person to someone who drools on themselves and notices very little of what is going on around them. The problem here when you go to complain about the condition of your loved one is that the nursing home will state that your family member was dangerous to themselves or others because of their behavior and if you don’t go along with the “treatment” you will have to find another place for them to live.

    The reality is that antipsychotics are not to be given to geriatric patients, period, because it causes all kind of problems starting with the increased possibility of falls, not to mention all the other adverse effects of these damned drugs. They can even cause psychosis in the elderly, especially in the elderly who already may have some large challenges when it comes to being in consensus reality.

    Again, I’m saddened about what happened to your father. I suspect that he was very independent and this most likely placed him in conflict with staff, especially staff who like to control people. Staff demand compliance because they can shirk their job duties and not do what they are supposed to do, especially on the night shift.

    I wish I could say that this experience is uncommon but unfortunately this is becoming the common experience over and over again.

  • Something bothers me about this statement of yours: “Too many who pass thru my door aren’t so interested to really reexamine insight and judgment, no, they want what is popular, easy and convenient.” I’m not so sure that I’d want you as my therapist. This sounds very judgmental and somewhat snide to me. It feels very cold. How can you really engage with people if this is the way that you feel about them?

  • Mindfulness in various forms found in Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, and the mystic traditions of Islam, Judaism and Christianity have been around for literally thousands of years and have benefited people willing to attempt living in the present moment. There is no past, there is no future, there is only the present moment.

  • I am totally tired of the grid lock that’s existed in Washington for at least eight years now. I sincerely believe that almost everyone in Congress at this time should be purged regardless of which party they belong to. All of them have been obstructionists at one time or another and it’s only getting worse rather than better. Sooner or later both parties will cause a major shutdown of the government that will have catastrophic effects for all of us. It makes me so angry that I call the office of one of my senators each and every day when I get home from work. It doesn’t do any good because he ignores all of his constituents.

    A purge is really not feasible but we need to find some way to make those damned people in Washington realize that they are supposedly working for us back home.

  • I heard a reporter who was in Tehran two weeks ago state that he talked with many Iranians on the street and they did not express any hatred of the American people. Instead, we are rather admired. But they do not like our government at all.

    The Palestinian/Israeli situation was actually created by the British when they fled from Palestine in 1948. There was no state of Israel until the Jewish influx to the area. And the Israelis try to use Hebrew Scriptures to legitimate their takeover of the land of Palestine and they state that Yahweh mandated all of this. Some Palestinian families have lived in those refugee camps for three or four generations. It’s no wonder that those places are fertile beds for the development of what is referred to as terrorism. Give me a break! It reminds me of the colonization of America by White Europeans. And most people don’t realize that there were no royal and ruling families in Jordan and Saudi Arabia until the British created such families in the early 1900’s. Thank you Great Britain for causing such huge world problems.

    I was once a Religion teacher in Catholic schools. For a few years I had to teach Social Justice and boy was that a trip. The things I learned in my studies to put my lessons together about United States world policy was totally shocking. Those two years started my investigation into trying to find the truth about the things we do as a government. For instance, our Foreign Aid policies are ways of supporting American businesses at the expense of people in countries receiving our aid. We push products that are not allowed to be sold here any longer and we push surplus products that large companies have on their books that they aren’t going to be able to sell here. Most of the time these products have no relation to the actual needs of the people receiving the aid. We are actually taking advantage of people at their expense. If they protest the products and point out that they are not helpful to them our government then threatens them with revoking all aid in the future. I learned more than I ever wanted to know; ignorance is sometimes bliss. And then the students called me a Communist when I tried to teach about these things! That was back in the day when such a thing was actually a slur.

    I guess I’m way off topic but it’s always of interest to me when I find someone else who knows about all this stuff.

  • They obviously don’t want the waters muddied in Finland nor do they want the little man behind the curtain to be exposed for the fraud that he truly is. But you are so good at ripping down those curtains and you certainly stir up the mud and you do it all with facts that can’t be dismissed. I admire the hard work that you do to expose the lies and duplicity carried on by the drug companies and psychiatry.

  • Finally, someone with a little clout is coming out and telling the truth. I was a teacher for a number of years. I was a product of the American public school system. I went to college and got my degree. In all of that experience dealing with education I never once ran into anyone that I would have given this spurious label to. I don’t believe in labeling anyone anyway but this ADHD thing is just pure bunk, plain and simple.

    I got out of teaching in the late 80’s right when this example of bull feces was jus raising it’s ugly head and making an appearance. Now, everyone and her or his cousin has “ADHD” and must be given a stimulant to “treat” it. You break the law when you go out on the street corner and buy speed from a drug dealer but it’s perfectly fine to go to a psychiatrist and get the same thing to drug your kids with.

    It’s time for more people to stand up and tell the truth about this lie that is perpetrated by the drug companies and psychiatry. We are destroying our kids by doing anything else.

  • Lots of countries in Africa shouldn’t have any great love for us either because of our interference in their governments after they were freed from their colonial overlords. Most of that interference was done simply for monetary gain on the part of people in the government.

    When it comes right down to it, it’s surprising that so many countries get along with us when you look at the history of our interference in any place that we could poke our nose into. We assassinated President Allende in Chile and then supported the right wing military dictator who rose to fill the vacuum. Wonderful Pinochet, who was responsible for how many thousands of his own people “disappearing”. And it took the mothers of the Disappeared coming and putting their white handprints on the wall and meeting very week to finally lead to his downfall.

  • By the way, I couldn’t reply to you when you commented about why Iran and the Palestinians hate us. It amazes me how well-read you are about so many things. Few people know that Iran hates us because we executed their duly elected prime minister in the early 50’s when he tried to nationalize the British and American oil companies that were raping his country for oil. Then we brought back the Shaw from exile in France and put him back on the Peacock Throne, a man so cruel to his own people that it’s unbelievable. We destroyed a parliamentary form of government that was elected by the Iranian people in free, democratic elections. Of course, we did this because the oil companies demanded that the American president and Congress do something about this very unfortunate development that would have taken money out of the pockets of the company that Rex Tillerson was CEO of until just recently.

    I hesitant to talk about the Palestinian problem because people will think that I’m anti-Semitic and I don’t have the energy to fool with that today.

  • I agree, I don’t call falling for the psychiatric lies a mistake on our parts. Americans are trained from an early age to respect and believe what doctors tell us about our health. We take what doctors say as gospel truth with little questioning.

    Most people have no idea that many psychiatrists are little more than quacks when it comes to the specialty of medicine that they practice. True, they are doctors in general but their so-called specialty of medicine is quackery in the highest level. But most people don’t realize this.

    I know that I sure didn’t when I got hooked into the system. When I was dragged in I thought, very mistakenly, that psychiatrists did talk therapy with people in their care. Boy was I disabused of that stupidity when they came at me with the toxic drugs when all I needed was someone to listen to me and validate my experiences. Luckily, I was always able to speak for and stand up for myself; plus I had a somewhat enlightened psychiatrist who realized that I knew what I needed to regain balance in my life and it had nothing at all to do with drugs. He allowed me to set my own “treatment”. I later learned that I was extremely lucky and that most people are not nearly as lucky as I was.

  • Plus this problem is causing the glaciers in the Himalayas to melt at rates never seen before. These glaciers, and the winds that blow across them are responsible for the monsoons that bring life to huge populations of people all across the world. Something like 60% of the world’s population depends on the monsoons in their areas to provide the rain for growing crops and for drinking. These glaciers are also the source of three main rivers that supply water to millions of people, the Ganges being one and being old I’ve forgotten the other two but they are major rivers of the world.

    So, what happens when there are no longer glaciers to provide all of this for 60% of the world? Widespread droughts of major proportions leading to famine and thirst on a huge scale.

    But who cares about all that as long as companies can make money right now here in the United States???? Money makes the world go round……..until there’s no longer any water to drink or grow food with.

  • Take fracting for instance. People in areas where this takes place on the part of the oil companies are experiencing earthquakes. These seem to be small at this point but they’re experienced in areas where earthquakes were unknown up until now. I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t want to be in an earthquake no matter what the size of the damned thing. I live on the New Madrid Fault. In the early 1800’s this fault experienced an earthquake that was large enough to change the flow of the Mississippi River. It’s a huge fault that will cause terrible and widespread damage and loss of life if and when a quake happens. I don’t want fracting to set off a major occurrence in this area and yet the oil companies state that there’s no problems, no dangers, everything is perfectly safe and hunky dory fine. NOT! All this is done to enhance the production of a fossil fuel that is running out and I’m afraid that it will result in catastrophes that they never thought of.

  • Does anyone know how the Quakers in their Moral Treatment dealt with violent people in their care? I would guess that people were held against their wills in the Quaker institutions but they were treated as human beings while they were there. I was just wondering what their answer was for this quandary that seems to trip everyone up when discussing what people should be allowed to do when they’re experiencing issues that are interpreted as “mental illness”.

  • I suspect that I’m probably older than you are and remember a lot of the cold war. I also had an uncle who did clandestine work for the American government and he had some very interesting tales to tell about what he did in the 1950’s and 1960’s.

    And of course, we can always agree to disagree.

  • Yes, I too a fear an alliance with Congress at this point. I also fear his great love for the Russian government. Russia has never been our friend and never will be. It’s always been intent on our destruction or domination. I am shocked by how many Republicans these days are have a favorable view of the Russian government and by Trump’s love affair with Putin, a man who is nothing more than a murdering thug.

    Your post also reminded me of a man who had to remove himself from a campaigne for President because it was revealed that he’d been treated for depression earlier in his life. I think his name was Eagleton? His popularity plummeted immediately when it was known that he was “mentally ill”. Of course, back then people really weren’t referred to as being “mentally ill”. If they experienced issues people said that they’d had a “breakdown” and had to take some time off to get themselves back together again.

  • I believe that Trump’s election to the highest office of our land, and as the leader of the free countries of the world, is indicative of things going on in our society as a whole. I don’t think this is about who voted for him and who didn’t. By the fact that we couldn’t do better than we did as far as candidates went right on down the line I believe tells us that we need to look at what is going on in our nation as well as in Washington.

    I think that we’re willing as a people to clutch at empty straws that are offered to us by politicians of both parties because of our own fears and delusions. I believe that many of us fondly look back at the 1950’s as such an ideal time (but it wasn’t ideal for Native Americans, African-Americans, nor people of Hispanic background) and are trying to get back there through the empty promises of people like Trump. Let us face the reality: jobs are not going to return to America in the numbers of the 50’s. Automation and outsourcing are not going to stop. Why are we not willing to admit this and then begin working to perhaps change the economic/political system that’s brought us to this point in time.

    Instead we look to Washington to the professional politicians (politicians were not supposed to remain in office for 40 or 50 years; remember Cincinatus(sp) and Rome?) to come up with new solutions. And of course they are not going to do this because it would then put them out of very lucrative positions to make money hand over fist. It’s not an accident that there are no poor Representatives or Senators in Washington. You have to have piles of money or the backing of people like the Koch brothers to even run (and there are always strings attached to monies given by those like the Koch’s and other of their ilk). Since when do our politicians listen to us, their constituents, and actually do what we ask them to do? And don’t point to Trump and what he’s doing because he’s not really going to come through on much of anything that he promised. One of my wonderful senators keeps his local office closed and locked, although staff are inside, because he’s afraid of what he might hear from the large numbers of people who are trying to get in there. He doesn’t want to hear what we have to say!

    I’m with Sera, I think it’s ridiculous to call Trump “mentally ill”, even though some are doing so openly on Sunday morning news shows. Trump knows exactly what he’s doing and why he’s doing it, he is in his right mind. This is what makes everything so scary. We need to get involved on the local level and become elected ourselves so that we can begin making policy changes on the local levels that actually benefit people.

  • In the state where I live there is a probation program for people labeled as “mentally ill” who got in trouble with the law. It lasts five years and you must report to a monitor constantly. You can’t leave the city limits of the city you are discharged in, unless you ask permission of your monitor. The restrictions are endless. You can go right up to the very last day of your five years before your freedom kicks in and be remanded by your monitor for another five years. People who have experienced both prison or jail and this program often tell me that they’d rather be in jail.

  • There are no “harmless” labels when it comes to psychiatry.

    I don’t approve of any of the labels to begin with but am particularly against the PTSD label since what is labeled as PTSD is NORMAL behavior on the part of a person who is emotionally overwhelmed to the point that they cannot deal with the event or experience. Labeling something that is normal behavior and making it into something that is pathological is so typical of psychiatry.

  • Julie

    LOL!! Don’t think I haven’t thought of doing something exactly like this! Actually, if the “patients” in the “hospital” where I work wanted to they could bring the place to its knees in 30 minutes. All they would have to do is work at a little coordination between all the units. This could be done when people are allowed off the units to go to recreation since they all go to the same places. They could choose a particular time and then at that moment all the “patients” on each unit could surround the nurse’s station and bring all the units to a halt. There are not enough police (yes, we actually have a real police force made up of people who go to the state police academy) to handle the situation.

    But here is the glaring problem with all this. Too many of the “patients” would be scared to take such direct action. Too many are afraid of retribution and punishment. They’ve been trained very well by the staff to embrace their learned helplessness. Too many have been in the system since they were kids and they have great difficulty thinking for themselves without someone in authority giving them permission to do so.

    When I was a patient at this “hospital” some of us on the unit I was on talked about this and gave it much thought but then everyone abandoned the idea as being too risky. Many felt that they’d be taken to court (yes, we even have our own city court that sentences people to the “hospital”) afterwards and given more time so we dropped it. But don’t think that I don’t think about it a lot! You are a bad influence on me!!!

    I guess if you’re going to escape from a psych “hospital” you may as well do it up big time and do it naked!!

  • Daniel

    Yes, we are going to bring people in from the outside who are certified to teach the “patients” on the units about emotional CPR and we bought “Healing Voices” to be shown to staff and “patients”. It will be interesting to see what kind of commotion that creates in the “hospital”. We are trying to figure out just how to go about doing all this. Peer workers cannot do what they’re trained to do in traditional institutional settings because the staff, and many of the “patients” unfortunately, are too entrenched in the “chemical imbalance” lie and in the lie that people can never recover and move on with their lives in productive ways. If you want to meet the “true believers” just go to a state “hospital” and talk with the staff.

  • Katie

    Thank you for writing this graphic and eloquent expose’ of what is happening to many in the peer worker movement. I’ve experienced similar things though nothing as horrible as what you’ve lived through. I work in the “hospital” where I was once held, which creates certain difficulties in itself. Staff think that they know me just because I was once a patient when they know nothing about me at all. I’ve been patronized and treated with paternalism. I’ve been verbally attacked by psychiatrists in public meetings for raising objections to things like shock treatment. When the hospital had a newsletter I wrote a number of articles about peer work. The psychologist of the unit where I was held said to me one day, “Stephen, I didn’t know that you were intelligent enough to write such well articulated articles.” There was one psychiatrist who slammed doors in my face all the time.

    All this kind of behavior and what you’ve experienced from co-workers makes me wonder who the truly “sick” people are in all of this. Thank you again for sharing your experience with us. I’ve almost given up on the idea of trying to change the institution and the system from the inside.

  • Yes, I know people on the units where I work that are in their 50’s and have never held a job, never experienced an intimate relationship, and rely totally on disability checks. Some of them live with their families of origin and many live in group settings where their lives are run totally by those in authority. They travel through the revolving door that we have in the Admissions Dept. and spend a greater part of their lives with us than they do outside out our walls.

    Now, I don’t want anyone to start fuming about me blaming the victim because I’m not. The system teaches great learned helplessness and if you’ve been told the lies since you were a child it’s highly likely that you’ve bought into the message. We spend all this money as a government for poor results, with people dying before they should while living lives of quiet desperation.

  • The president stands in front of the cameras and claims that it’s a horrible world and the reason he’s going to do all the things he has planned is to keep all of us safe. And according to him, only he can do this and we need to turn the reins totally over to him and let him have his way because he’s going to keep us all safe.

    The only problem with this is that no one can guarantee us safety, no matter what they do or say. He’s creating and pushing a delusion for us to accept and buy into. The fact is, this is and always has been an unsafe world and we’re all up for grabs. Pushing the naïve attitude of the 1950’s where everything was supposedly so wonderful and good (fact is it was only good and wonderful for some people and not everyone) is not going to make us safe. We are delusional if we think we’re safe and that nothing can happen to us just because we’ve “secured” our borders and forced those we don’t like into “concentration camps” or ghettos or onto registers and lists, like we did our own Japanese American citizens during WWII. We demonized our own Japanese citizens, of third generation or more, and thought we were safe. All we did was damage our own integrity. It’s always interesting to me that we didn’t do this to the German portion of our citizens, perhaps because Japanese Americans were easier to spot since they looked differently from people of non-Asian descent. Although many German American citizens did stop speaking German and some even changed their last names.

    As you state, what we can do is hope and love and do the best we can, not only for ourselves, but for everyone. This does not mean that bad things won’t happen to us.

  • Yes, I believe the reason behind so many who’ve been labeled as “mentally ill” not having relationships is, in great part, due to the drugs that keep people tranquilized and separated from their feelings and emotions. Plus they incapacitate people to the point of not being able to go out and pursue much of anything in the way of interaction with society.

    Yes, I agree. We all pretty much know by now that most people who’ve been labeled as “schizophrenic” can get their lives back if they get off the drugs.

  • Frank

    Yes, most people don’t know the history of all this. One of my stepfathers couldn’t marry my mother in the state where we lived because the state didn’t allow people diagnosed with epilepsy to get married. He had to lie but could have been in trouble if anyone had wanted to look up his medical records. We had all kinds of interesting laws on the books about the groups that we didn’t want propagating their genes. We even had laws about how different races couldn’t intermarry.

    Even today people who’ve been labeled as “mentally ill” don’t usually cultivate and nurture one on one relationships. One of the saddest and most disheartening things to me about my work at the state hospital is the huge number of people who’ve never had any kind of one on one relationship with another person. They don’t have wives or husbands or children or anyone special who loves them just for who they are. They live solitary and lonely lives because they were told that they would never be well. I believe that this is one more reason why so many people die sooner than they should.

  • To add another interesting note to all this we can talk about the fact that German psychiatry’s murder of the “mentally ill” was praised by many here in America. Many psychiatrists advocated for the same treatment for people in this country. In 1941, at the annual meeting of the APA the keynote speaker’s address advocated for murdering the “mentally ill” in this country. Only two psychiatrists spoke out publicly against this out of all that were gathered there. Of course, the speaker didn’t use the word murder as such. The next year there was an anonymous editorial in the APA’s magazine advocating for this very same idea. This was not really that long ago.

    And then we could go on to talk about all the wonderful “treatments” that were perpetrated on the “mentally ill” through the years. There was the spinning chair, dunking in ice water, being bound up tightly in sheets which were then soaked with ice water, induced insulin shock (from which many people died), and wonderful shock treatment. Come to think of it, the only real treatment that we can point to is the moral therapy of the Quakers. All these other things can be called nothing but torture.

  • One of the basic, underlying problems with peer workers is that; without proper training they often end up doing to people what was done to them by the system when they were “patients” themselves. Also, I think that some peer workers work out of this dynamic because there is such a strong tendency to not question anyone in authority in the system. It takes courage to speak out and stand up, especially when your bank account depends on you having that job, and as someone above mentioned peer workers usually are not rolling in the dough. Peers must be supported by the administration in the organizations where they work or they will never survive when they stand up for people on the units. Psychiatrists run most of the traditional institutions and the assumption is that they are not to be questioned nor are you to speak out against the “treatment” that they dole out to people in their power. Administrations defer to psychiatrists in almost everything. So, I think that lot of peer workers hunker down and spout the party line.

    I believe that it’s a lot different for peer workers who find jobs in alternative settings. In my state there are no alternative settings, at all. There are organizations which provide alternatives to the traditional “treatment” but these organizations charge an arm and a leg for their services and as a peer worker I would not be able to affiliate myself with such places because of this.

  • Julie

    What you describe is not uncommon. As you and I both know, peer workers MUST BE PEOPLE WITH LIVED EXPERIENCE! There should be no exceptions; no family members, no friends, no one but people with lived experience.

  • Wasn’t SAMSHA, or its precursor, the organization responsible for destroying the Survivor, Ex-patient Movement’s yearly convention in the 1980’s? Then they replaced it with the Alternatives Conference? I might be wrong but it sticks in my mind that tis is what happened.

  • But, it all depends on what kind of training the peer workers are given. Many times peer workers can’t do the job they’re supposed to do, which is to support people in finding their own voices so that they can claim what they themselves need, because they’re subordinate to an authority like Nursing. Being subordinate often means that they’re told to get the “patient” to be compliant with the “meds” and to make them behave. People want to keep their jobs, especially if they’ve never worked or haven’t worked for a long time. So we know what happens. Peer workers must have a department to themselves with their own supervisors who have lived experience. This isn’t the case most of the time. All too often peer workers are coopted by the system, as usual. Peers have a very difficult time working in traditional institutions such as state “hospitals”. If I’m not mistaken the state of Georgia does not allow it’s peer workers to take jobs in these institutions since it’s impossible to do what peers are supposed to do in such places.

  • And now that many schools have psychologists or licensed therapists on staff you know what happens to kids that refuse to fit into molds and behave in ways that adults in authority demand. It’s like a medieval witch hunt going on in schools these days, and of course they do all of this for the good of the poor students. This is one of the reasons that I got out of teaching; you could see the writing on the wall when the fake labels of ADD and ADHD made their appearances. It’s horrible and disgusting and yet it goes on five days a week with very few people making any complaints about it. But of course, if you refuse the “help” that the well-intentioned school psychologist or counselor suggest you run the risk of getting into trouble with the Dept. of Human Services for endangerment of your children. They’ve got things wrapped up pretty tightly and it’s difficult to stay out of their clutches.

  • Most peer organizations that I’m familiar with through the internet have supervisors. Some of them do something called co-supervision and those are the organizations that are truly peer in the sense that you and I are discussing. But that’s not something that happens where I am.

  • I don’t believe that the removal of homosexuality as a “mental illness” from the DSM had a twiddle to do with science and everything to do with politics in the form of lots of gay men and lesbian women demonstrating loudly outside the offices of the APA. You do know that the supposed “illnesses” listed in the wonderful DSM are voted on by predominately upper middle class white men in committees? They make up possible new “diagnoses” while washing their hands after using the facilities, take them into committee, and vote on them. Sounds really scientific to me. What does it sound like to you?????? This is all proven from the testimony of eyewitnesses, some of whom were actually on the committees, until they resigned in total disgust! Scientific you say?????

  • CatNight

    I can’t remove the memories that I have of my time in the system either, especially as I witness the same things being done to people every day that were done to me. And here is my aggravation. I am a peer worker and I’ve heard a large number of peer workers who are high up in peer organizations state that you can’t be a proper and good peer worker unless you put all those things behind you. Can you believe that?? This sounds like an attempt to coopt peers into not doing the job that they were trained to do. Not even the peer movement is safe from the damned system.

    My contention is that remembering my experiences makes me a better peer worker than I would be if I put all those things away and pretend that they never happened. I feel that this would be going along with the system rather than calling the system into question in the hopes that things will change for people for the better.

  • But Fiachra, psychiatry and the drug companies can’t charge tons of money for the things that actually work safely for people!!! You need to get with the program!

    Seriously, I agree with you in that things like meditation and trying to live out the teachings of Buddhism on a daily basis are much more productive and helpful to me than anything that the “mental health” system wants to do to me.

  • CatNight

    I think part of what you are describing and talking about here is that fact that we don’t really have communities anymore. We don’t have many real and life-giving relationships with many people on a broader level. We confine ourselves to the nuclear family and I believe that this is very limiting. At one time this country had families that were extended with three generations living in the same house. We had neighborhoods where all the mothers looked out for the welfare of the kids living in those neighborhoods. If one mother say you doing something you shouldn’t be rest assured that your mother would know about it shortly. We lived and worked in neighborhoods where people knew one another and watched out for one another. I think that this experience is pretty much dead and gone now. Once these things begin breaking down everything else begins to follow.

  • Hmmm…….Shaun would never give me a reply here about the state “hospital” at Pueblo, which was a rat hole of a place. Actually I shouldn’t demean the poor rats. Shaun claims that forced treatment doesn’t go on anymore, especially in Colorado, but I have high doubts about that. I asked about this at least three times and he never would answer.

  • rebel

    Tell me about it. I work in a state “hospital” and see the results every day of the “good treatment” that the psychiatrists force upon people. Yes, there are way too many aria’s out there, even one is too many. Yes, all of us must keep telling the stories and be witness to the harm done to people because psychiatry and the drug companies have made such an unholy alliance.

  • It’s interesting to me that the supposed diagnosis of Bi-polar was somewhat rare, not nearly as rampant as today, before the advent of and acceptance of the SSRI’s. People often got through it and went on wither their lives, again, unlike today. Kind of makes me wonder………………….

  • Many psychiatrists seem to be very “blind” to what is going on with their “patients”, things caused by the drugs themselves. Of course, they can’t admit that the drugs are harming people since being able to prescribe the drugs in the first place seems to legitimate them as real “doctors”.

    Am glad that you made it through all these terrible difficulties.

  • It’s really interesting to me that the articles about Carrie Fisher’s death have attracted more of the defenders of the system than I’ve seen since I’ve been at MIA. I wonder what that’s all about? I always felt badly for Ms. Fisher when I would see her being interviewed on television. It was so apparent that she was often drugged to the gills with the psych drugs; I often wondered how she kept navigating through it all. I admired her for that but I did not admire her when she chose to be the poster child for the system.

  • Thanks but no thanks, I don’t want any of the kool aid. You all can try all you want but I don’t think you’re going to convince many of us here at MIA with this, way too many of us suffered at the hands of the so-called “mental health system”.

  • I don’t care if she posts here, it’s a free place for everyone. I don’t care that she thinks the drugs are helpful, for her they may even be because she sounds as if she is an anomaly. It does happen for some people.

    There has to be some way to enlighten people about the wider realities of what really happens with all this. I suspect that Princess has not been exposed very much to the other side of the story about all this. So how do we help people see that side?

    What gets me is the arrogance, not so much from Princess but from the other two, Shook and shaun f. It’s very difficult for me to deal with the arrogance because it was what I had to deal with in most of the psychiatrists that I was handed over to when I did my little stint in the system.

  • Please tell me what goes on at the state “hospital” in Pueblo, Colorado. I’m sure it’s still there doing all the wonderful things to people that it used to do. What a terrible place. And I’m sure it’s not out of business. And I’m sure that forced treatment goes on there each and every day of the year, nonstop. Tell me about the state “hospital” in Pueblo, Colorado.

  • shaun f

    I am sorry but you really don’t know what you are talking about when you state that forced treatment happens only occasionally. Where in the world are you living and don’t tell me Colorado. Coercion and force takes place every day across this nation and it will happen even more now that Murphy’s bill got passed by that crazy Congress that we supposedly elected. You need to get a grip and move in to the real world and not some make believe place where everyone sits around taking their psych “meds” and extolling the virtues of the wonderful treatment that they get while everyone holds hands and sings Kumbaya together. Give me a break. I know what I know when it comes to forced treatment. For some reason you resist admitting that it is a reality for far too many people.