Monday, September 25, 2017

Comments by waltinseattle

Showing 100 of 105 comments. Show all.

  • thats a rhetorical question as you pose it. Following on your first words, i dont see much room for open debate near you either. I point to a sad state and you jump in with the cut and paste arguments. come on, you can perform at a higher level than that! you act as if a large bureaucratic army doing many things somehow magically speaks in unison here. why, read all the contradictions allowed between papers they produce. who do you think decides where difference is allowed, where no? who do you suppose has no better way to spend time?

  • some, not all, ar so controled. But then so is diabetes/pre-diabetes. so is “morbidly overweight. So does tht mean these dont exist? there are “bio-markers here. How are they interpreted, that is the valid issue.

    give me a citation for the time/dose dependence of shr inkage is due to psy drugs assertion tou make. you are aware of some, citations, i assume. Are you refuting the neroprotective qualities of a variety of drugs from pot and morphene to several of the psy drugs as well?
    i hope.

  • whereas I see this as the perfect reason to study the diagnostic label and what lies under the hood(s) of those given the D.X. we both are pointing to a variety of malfunctions, from bio to situational and more. Anyone truly scientific would want to see whats what, not blatently say these people go here and these don’t , on some acceptance of the infallability of the “bible” the SDM.
    I am not of the choir, but I do appreciate and have a lot of points where we agree. Thats a good thing, yes?

  • we are supposed to qualify all the diagnostic indications with ” to a degree that interferes with …[leading an independent life, having participation in community school job etc..]”or in other words having a life. Since it is obvious many do have these issues, we are merely debating the line of how good is good enough. We set a line of 85 I.Q. for the ability to compete in the open market of this modern world. In 1200 it would be absurd to do so. Times change, should we not attend to how that affects the people living in changed times?

    Standards? we have ranges for heart rate, for blood pressure and for other diagnostically usefull quantifables. The lines are always hedged bets. There is nothing profoundly perverse or wrong with this fluid state. Being rigid is the issue, still: 5 ft 5 and 450 pounds? A resting heart rate of 115? By your logic, with not “standard” these are just fine.

  • Bonny, not trying to say you didnt see what you saw in that study. I wonder though with such constructs as ADHD and yes, even the schizophrenias, that treating these constructs as a single “entity we re not setting up to find no differences. I have little to no trust of the statistic methods applied even now in most instances. They belong to ca.1980 and before!

    Having said this, I admit I find such results as a strong finding in the lancet article to be “extraordingary” enough to require some “extraordingary” evidence. The confounds of meta studies are well and fairly laid open in this critique.

    Could you share some of your distribution data? I wonder how perfectly the line was. regression math is always an assumptive process. It hides our presumptions behind cold math. I hear some go to third derivative analysis to find whatever they want to find from these “distributions.”

  • positive results always are move likely to be published. So there are research leaches who capitalize and hack their own science to get published, and they even send out pre-publication promotional literature. You must have laughed at how many clickbait websites look like blatant cut and paste from them?

    secondly thee overpriced journals get content and thanks to the publicity and citation stats for the articles, they get impact scores that bestow prestige. meantime the research community is in open revolt. interesting times, are they not?

  • I find your animus to the school system quite fine. I disagree about what it produces. More than seeing than docile sheep I see the school to detention to prison pipeline as the major “accomplishment” Some corporate owners realize there is little place in the future for more docile competitors for jobs that are disappearing to automation. Without big deadly wars to control population (as were the crusades of earlier ages of too many youths) the prison owners are poised to out do the old industries seeking that docile product.

  • first they dropped the vocational schools, then they dropped music then recess and time to use all the normal childhood energy. Then the unions decided to champion all the lousy teachers who were there for the retirement package and were not willing to be creative ( creativity is harder when the school is shorted cash to supply materials like art supplies and musical instruments and…)

  • Schiz is a spectrum of distinct clusters of predisposing factors and of separate often but not always overlapping “behaviors” as well as the lack of some behaviors. of course it is not a thing. So what? When is the last time you looked into the current lab research? I find M in Am. to be guilty of ignoring too much of it because they are not willing or able to reconsider the arguments that have “succeeded” so far to maintaining a place in the conversation. If they dont stay current they will pass into history. While I have big issues with the group, I recognize them as an important voice and would not like to see them disappear.

    While there is always subjectivity in such, so also in medical conditions such “subjectivity” plays a part.

    The issue with diagnostic evidence as with infections is a trope that should be abandoned. the issue should be the lack of using the diagnostic evidence (as one factor, not as conclusion- this is how it really works, not just opinion of one doc one short moment. (this should be recognized as a real problem and severely criticized when discovered!) Mad should learn to pick its battles better is all I wanted to say.

  • give it up, the research here is overwhelming. The real problem is not the scientific evidence. The real problem is the continuing sloppy diagnostics of the industry. There i completely agree with Mad in America. It is too bad they don’t do more beyond a simple condemnation and then moving on to the anti-lab science beat down. By shorting the strong argument and fighting the lost argument they do not move the issue forward significantly.

  • a larger startle response system should be related to a smaller executive function. Is this controversial at all? There is no sense, just nonsense, in talking in such general terms if you want to move the discussion forward. Scientist do jump to conclusions. Scientists have a way of calling them for it. It is the scientiifooc method. It iis fine to hold you and others trying to improve the wrld by using science in different settings to use some of the method as well. the article, though I see some errors in it just like the reserach they criticize, is at least a start. However I feel Mad often foes past the start gate with its own conter-“mainstream” agenda, often a decade behind trends there.

  • bigger does not imply slower. Active should make more processing mass, not lead to higher pruning. On these two points you are missing the basics of morphology and development.
    otherwise:
    Size DOES relate to body size. Some adjust for this. We have no indication even from the mad review if this was done or not, so I can not condemn the report. want to take a look or ask a mad person who investigated?

  • I do not see where Mad coppped to doing this. I posted in a reply about ADHD being used along with anti-social disorder etc to weasel out of an early but “stigmatic” diagnosis of psychopathy for those under 18. psycopathy Dx requires 3 years of the symptoms, they must start before 15… in other words, like some statute laws that control minors, so diagnosis is controlled by issues of social sentiments and prevailing interests of ll sorts, all on a base of don’t speak poorly of the children, which is normally o.k. except when the child is trying to commit murder by age 10!

  • Because those conditions also lead to the same indications, or signs and symptoms as they are referred as, that is “behaviors,” this is a serious confound to any attempt to make statistic inferences! While there is a recognition of the existence of a naturally adhd cohort, there is also recognition of a cohort who have developed so as to reflect diagnostic inclusive behavior. No study can get by if these groups are not treated as separate etiologies and if it does not reflect the difference between them. The first group, the naturally adhd, includes for the most those who go on to have anti-social behaviors, which is how under 18 years of age psychopaths are mentioned because admitting the serious stigma that goes with that diagnosis, they are shunted into the catchalls .

  • im sorry you had such shits fir parents. mine were not very good at it either but they tried to seem nice at least.. you should be doing well and hapy with the trauma informed essages of today. no need to pretend you are broken, no need to say there is no reovery, but hey, trauma is a bitch, sometimes you have to admit to being run over by that nack truck called mom and dad. pretending it never happened, or pretending it didbt hurt,,, both are denial and that a big hurdle for the human ego. let go and let it be done. Wouldnt you rather be free from yesterday and not figuring hos to get even?

  • could not agree more. compare this issue to the over writing for anti-biotics because patient demand something for their time and money of the visit. and look where thats got us. pushy patients want darling baby to not have sniffles, manipulable doc writes. GRRRR!

    some of us call them the “worried well.” this is not to say they do not suffer, sometimes greatly, even to the point of resorting ti suicide. However, the great majority are “well” in that they are not suffering from what the 4% have to deal with. 4% SMI is the best estimate , but the prescriptions are nearly 10times or more widely spread. That is malpractice by off-label carelessness & no different than giving junior pennicillin for the cold. Mostly it is g.p. doing the psychiatric drugs also, with no expertise. How do some people take them for a year or 2 before ever meeting a psychiatrist!!!

    the MIA minions act like they are the single champion to correct it! they lump it all in one giant “my story” and pull the “youre not hearing me” whenever the story is examined. Some are not the minions. i find them a pleasure to converse with.

    Biomarkers: yes there are. They are not sufficient , they are far from even necessary in many ways. and to use that lovely line from th RDoC big data study on genes …”they don’t respect the DSM category boundaries.” What has been found is that these antiquated signs and symptoms thing called behavioral medicine got its categories wrong and we are just starting to correct that. Meanwhile as peoples, brains mature and maturational deficits become evident, diagnoses of behavior shape shifts like the behavior. This is great ammo for the mia critics. for the scientist its data. Meanwhile it is a sad history of well but depressed people being dosed with antidepressants and over reacting because…they had no problem there to correct, just a misunderstanding between them, the doc and the chemical reactions that spell headline tragedy.

  • i’m having that conversation with frank above. I took a look at some of the literature claiming better outcomes, I find it fraudulent, premature and misdirecting. a 77% rate of “unavailable at followup” is dismissed as no problem because that group did not differ fro the cohort in demographic and diagnostic criteria at intake. talk about true believers not willing to investigate!

    As for the wholistic approach these anti meds champion. so wholistic that they refuse to consider other causality for the condition(s). how convenient a switch off that must be. I wish my rational processes came so well defended.

    I wonder if the WHO people ever did the intake and follow-up on their own, separate from the clinicians in all those places . I think I am looking at apples and oranges…. and figs and mangoes. I think its already mincemeat and baked in a pie. But its sciencey enough for some eyes.

  • sartorius. paragraph 2 admits non representative samples, later the bias of initial input to clinics may reflect outcome prognosis. a 77% unavailable for followup…half assed inter rater consistency across languages? and this is hard science? this is a preliminary study not to be considered anywhere near conclusive.AS USUAL, WHITAKER FAILS TO READ THE BIG BOLD PRINT ADVISORY NOTICES, THE SECTION HEADINGS FOR INSTANCE in this case he goes with the author who cavalierly dismisses his own warnings with absurdist assumptions!

  • you better have some specific studies in mind, as the reviews i am reading note that this wqs just the beginning of valid measurement tools. just the beginning, and it continues to day but that period is noted for the hodgepodge of interview tools and second hand reports. the categories were hardly in place for the reporting agents and combining this data set with that data set (who did not do its own data creation , but used data sets already made, by whomever was in a location) a fever dream. so. citations first and i will gladly deconstruct your sure stance upon reciept.

  • reports from the remot 3rd world is tht villag herb itches brew their concoctions and theen, to giv them the added kik of modern west, the use hypodermuics to inject when in old times the patient drank.. No, before they had one way to deal with psychosis. in a shed or to a tree to keep them segregated, but after we got there the big white doctor go to do the work, the numbers reported went up, not the cases extant. remember the forensic s on pre psy drug tissue? same degeneratin as is tody blamed on the drugs was there…before the drugs. Are drugs harmless? certainly not. Is all the damage due to them? not by a long shot. Is there genetic predictability? there is. reality dies not need alibis. it needs honest reconing.

  • too late, the revolution has already begun. it came from NIMH, and will spread from there. RDoC for one. btw, they are NEURO-Hormones to be precise. there are also b lial regulators, sodium and potassium channel regulaters, fatty acids that line the cannabinoid/opiate/other regulation systems in cell membranes, these contriibute to a wholistic array of events, not just “mental events.” The revolution begins with rejecting reductioinism in all its forms.

    Welcome aboard?

  • or mission creep of the parent/state? of the agencies paid to connect “clients” to “services” and do so on a “5 million served” model. a society without pensions is probably one where few have the spare capital in hand for psy drugs. which is cause of the correlation, if there indeed is a cause to be seen in the two isolated constructs.

  • trauma informed care, not “what is wrong with you?” but “what happened to you?” is the opening of dialogue. Sometimes it is a real insult that was meant to be insult and trumatic. the bully who trips one who is not graceful.
    Sometimes it is not from outside but from wrong underrstanding of the ear. That IS a reality, but a fa;se one. different solutions. there is no map to all the worlds places.

  • and f the rape victims, nothing we can do. our hands are clean, not our sperm in her, not our crime. “there is no society, just individuals” ( Marge Thatcher). How sad to see advocates going down that neo-liberal blackhole!

    as for those ones now relieved of stigmatic labels and unwaranted interventions by state. kindly return to your alleys, your jail cells. report to the e.r. if you really need service, but any presenting symptom will be attributed to your mental state. You are not sick. you malinger, now get out there and get employed. you do not have no stinking disabilities. you are blessed by autism, by agoraphobia listen to the voices and let them guide you
    …go forth and flourish!

  • I have heard of anti-depressant psychosis. In the psychiatric literature as well as in the Mad literature.
    And you insinuate that all neuroleptics have an unrecognized, a hidden and unspoken psychosis. I know lots who owe their lives to that state of mind.

    Chemicals in the body? sometimes the genes are turned off. Sometimes they are not downregulated. sometimes the complexity precludes a simple intervention. it is called wholistic dynamics the new age uses the words to sell modern snake oil. science admits the very limited knowledge to date . I will place my money on science.

  • Reminds me of several specifics I have encountered in several months. These are the freudian analysis. There is still a tendency to place onus on the patient, not the immediate social environment. And even then, there is a blame the family stance that is much to reflexive to be good science, let alone good treatment. I see this among may Mad defenders here. In so many words they blame parents. in round about ways they hint the same, through their insistence their family be fully excluded from treatment decisions and any info be kept from family. There are cases where this is the right route. But not always! the conversation needs some nuances here as in so many more ways.

    I like Dr E Fuller Torrey, but the extreme Mad followers seem to think he is devil from big pharma incarnate. They apparently have not read his words on over druging! I find this a shame and I do put some responsibility on the bloggers of Mad to correct the situation. It is your choir singing the tune, sour and off key as it is. Where did they first hear it?

    Dr Torrey in his own words:
    That all changed when Big Pharma took over. At the congress, I counted 15 major displays on the way to the lunch area, including an artificial garden (Janssen-Cilag), a brook running over stones (Lundbeck), and a 40-foot rotating tower (Novartis). Almost all offered free food and drink, T-shirts, or other inducements designed to get psychiatrists to pause so that an army of smiling sales representatives could give their sales pitch.

    Eli Lilly’s display included two large, walk-through tunnels set up like funhouses. One tunnel, labeled “Zyprexa,” included a mirrored room with dozens of telephones dangling from the ceiling. Was Lilly trying to convince me that God was calling, telling me to prescribe Zyprexa? The sales representative said no, the phones were meant to illustrate the communication problems common in schizophrenia, which Lilly claims Zyprexa improves. The other funhouse, labeled “Prozac,” featured a 10-foot mouselike creature sitting in front of a blank television screen. I asked whether Lilly was recommending Prozac for mice. The representatives said no, the creature was really a depressed man who needed Prozac.

    My favorite display, by the Dutch firm Organon, advertised Remeron, an antidepressant. It featured a small, multihued tent with purple doors and the painted head of a genie. Inside, a red-robed young woman with sprinkles in her hair was taking Polaroid pictures, one by one, of psychiatrists who had waited patiently in line for 20 minutes or more. This was no ordinary picture but rather a snapshot of one’s aura, taken, as the Organon brochure noted, “with advanced biofeedback equipment.” The equipment consisted of two small machines, on which I placed my hands. The result was a picture of my head peering out of a red, orange, and yellow cloud.
    http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/media/eft/big-pharma-funding-psychiatrists.html

    this is the bedmate of big pharma???

    Comes now the deconstructionism of pro Szasz (a social and cultural critic more than a doctor it appears from his legacy, the fountainhead of all the ridiculous, overblown Libertarian balderdash, all which is a hard match to make with caring community, being so uber individualistic .)

    Lastly the stuck mid century representation of science. Re: It is noted in the psychiatric literature, did you miss this “downside of long term drugs.” issue being across the board? Why the agrssively A OR B headline to start your argument for wrap around services. And “which side” of the drug issue came up with “#treatment delayed is treatment denied? ” hint… not your followers! So please get off the righteous stool, join hands over common issues so we can get at least a start of services in time. And then we can work on the nuances like how long for whom the drugs are beneficial (legal stability for court is not the same as the theraputic line of stability, it takes longer to gain self awareness, and it works ONLY wit talk and handholding, not just drugs , not just rational cognitive blabber to the psychotic ears)

  • I would bet she is talking at a larger theoretical level, where there is certainly rom for you and those I know who had very blameworthy parents. Once upon a time, in the dark afges of the 20th century it was a popular theory among philosophical psychiatrist that parents, bad mothers to be precise, caused schiz, it was nothing but Freudian balderdash, but it had place in the TRUTHS of powers not yet banished from the throne. Nowdays some try to replace mommy with the mean state. And while there is something to it, they again centralize their particular belief and enshrine it as unquestioned truth .

    I would like to hear what you have found made life better for you.

  • oldhead, I will take that as your ignorance of how the mentally labeled as well as the SMI are abused in pri
    sons. Dying from pepperspray, 140degree showers you get locked in till your skin peels and sticks to the floor. Beaten and raped for fun and such, left for months in a solitary room 23/7 and no one cares if you take the food this week or not, they will sweep up after you and just insert another problem they want to be rid of. Yes, that certainly beats someone trying to be helpful.

  • mentaly… ill-at-ease is the big elephant. Mental disease is only some 4% . but to get 50% plus on meds…ah that is the hot commodity. Meanwhile the entangled get into denying the SMI of others. Docs ignore the SMI of others, Payment systems deny the SMI and hell happens.

  • because the legal system will be there to pick up the splattered pieces. just fing great! send more meatwagons…unless you have a credible plan??????????????? …………………………………………………………………………………………………. ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
    chirp, chirp chirp………………………………………………………………………………

  • thats a good obseration, but it should not surprise anyone who looks critically in all places and observes how people get to “powerfull” placesto begin with. The dynamic here is “self selection,” where the system self selects and maintains its self as if it had intention like we mere meatsuits do. gaining “power” in this sense is giving up power.

  • sorry, i was wandering to oliver sacks there, he is a true neurologit, and never a new ager. the comments otherwise re weil, the new age “guru” ego hound still apply.

  • i believe in psy-meds. I believe in them for perhaps 2 weeks in your case. three years is simple sponging by the billing party. What you really needed was a community of people “abused” by life’s inconsiderate and impersonal ways. What you needed perhaps was a good bar, with a good staff and clients. N.Z. seems short, as does even current america on this self help setting. Also a superlative short term medicine, morphene/heroin, is outlawed and docs cant give you that for a few weeks. too sad.

    Let me take a chance at getting you upset. perhaps you were always emotionally labile to the point where you were having a lot of issues and were thus the wounded rabbit that predators with script privileges are always looking for
    (not all the psy-docs, the true predators be they recognized or not, admitted or not)

    so while you were symptomatic enough to get into the madperson trap, you did not belong there. My theory is that roughly 75% of those brought into Tx are among the “worried well” or at least well enough to send elsewhere and get on with the triage mandate of SMI care, which is sadly untreated because as I say often, the good doc prefers clean safe client who would fit well in his social club, along for a round of golf, or who might already be a familiar member of the subscribed philharmonic, opera or theatre group beloved by the good doc. the well insulated yuppie neo-lib doc who is clueless of the “real” world” outside the well defended bubble. This bubble says to the SMI “don’t be symptomatic or we will kick you out of the therapy. you must act well if you want to be able to act well.” Can you see that absurdity and the perspective that is not quite close enough to Mad peoples’ perspectives that we can easily be allies? It is marginals like yourself who present as nice patients who will stay trapped, accept the docs plan of medication, who will not go off meds to end up on the front page for their actions and who will keep the payment current. Psychiatry is way to narrow to cure that list! so is MiA.

  • sounds like a slamdunk medical malpractice. and this even before we bring psychiatry into the court except to stipulate the medicines and effects on temp regulation etc. Not just bad psy, then, but incompetent med! And this is the “system” in which too many tend to pick on psy docs ? how nearsighted!

    issue 2 it is always a craps game. point of fact. my non psy doc counselor knows of agitated depression. heaven save us fro the continuing education Big BOTTOM LINE has in mind.

  • may you find all that you reject in what you embrace. Who can tell how it comes to them, who can untangle the words one is given without advice on the use thereof.

    You open: “the last thing people who have survived abuses need is Therapy, Recovery, or Healing.” and then go on to chart a course there. I applaud your youth.

  • I too was stunned. Dr Weil never had much beyond allopathy to guide him. He understood the need to study health and to do the diagnosis, the whole diagnosis. he was first a neurologist, second a WRITER on Psychiatric issues. So again, it is a problem not just of his, but of specialization. And I have yet to see his writtings wander into opposing theories of medicine. ayurvedic or TCM or modern meridian and its parallels to gestalt therapy which is currently being torn apart and copywrite protected by new ager$ and pseudo guru$$$
    .

  • Truth and Reconciliation can not wait! one side can not “win” unless the other wins. Respect, not domination, is the path.

    I love you for saying it aloud though. It is amazing how much the people share across the great divide that needs healed. So much in common, feelings, experiences, slights, frustrations…and grieving for the dead…

    Richard Lewis above says he took 23 years to wash himself free of working in the system . I tried to be kind to him, as I will be with the author. I know about regretable compromises! It is good to see your words on peoples timelines and how their paths evolve.

  • lucky you to not be a swift descendingvictim, whose course is not highly determined by bad genes, lots of bad genes and in very important sytems.

    I am glad for your advocafy. But please do not think that your abuse means you are qualified to speak to what is propper medical theory. Speak to the abuse and bad theory and it has power. Beyond that….not so much if not the reverse to some listeners.

  • I am curious what your current “different perspective” might be. Is it the extreme of the Mad people who deny there are actually very disabled persons within the population labeled with “psychiatric” labels? or is it a snakeoil magic bullet alt-therapy? or is it something that has long been overlooked (as I see it this is the only 3rd option and claims otherwise are ahistorically assersted) eg orthomolecular theory (still very rudimentary among western trained “docs” even the ones who “came out” of allopathy.

  • just a few clarifications if you will. Were you locked in a V.A. hospital? were you injected regularly for that 2 years? and how can others get the same quality of services when requested but denied? the question of value received is not a welcome response. people have asked and not received. You have received and not asked. Please shed light on this roll 9o the dice. And answer the about details questions if you would.

    P.S. sorry about your playing along . Sorry about the loss of personal power that this illustrates.

    PTSD is not one of the 3 recognized categories of SERIOUS MENTAL ILLNESS. the current psychiatric system however , like some politicians, is enamooured of powerfull hammers they have been granted use of. Like all boys, they have defined the world as a place to use their hammers. don’t blame hammers.

    What I request of you is to help in this quewtion being answered. How do we segregate the SMI fro the worried well? you were worried well. Yes, a Mental/Psychological issue to resolve. Not a strong genetic fatalism though, just a challenge. how do we keep the likes of you from getting “hammered?”

  • some agreement and some “you stupid idiot” will follow. dont take it personally.

    I quit really fast. I did not do med school, but I did decide (rather “late” in a career life) to treat addictions. Within months I saw the way things worked in the economic system we have. I saw the acceptance.. I quit. Number one was flak I received for spending half an afternoon with a young man new to our facility. When he said “no one has ever asked me about that before” the flags were up! at once they were up. I guess if it took 23 years, at least it happened for you.

    As for what a medicine or a “true medicine” is supposed to do… you missed a large part called “manage symptom.” which is hardly something only psychiatry is doing. Insulin as “medication” is intended to correct imbalance. It is not intended to cause the body to resume production. We have then the insulin-resistant-system that is ignored. I will not claim use of insulin “caused” the resistance. I merely note the existence of the phenomena as somethig that more insulin does not begin to address.

    for over 3,000 years other forms of medicine have been practiced. Allopathy is only a few hundred years old and its beginnings are littered with destruction of “integrative” ideas. Pardon me while I rinse my mouth from the much too new age term? Were you familiar with this topic you might understand that “markers” have long been observed. Were you familiar with recent science, you would realize the advances that the scientific method has made to take us beyond the archaic allopathy that came from Heildelburg university during a dark ages we have yet to accept as a dark ages. Only generalists of the social critique kind seem interested in that thread of the story.

    I can not imagine spending decades working with such issues daily! I returned to self employment, gardening, reading and poverty. My question to YOU: what took you so long? what was the allure that kept you coming back for more? Delusions? Money? The ABYSS of what else to do with your time?

    You seem to miss the scientific revolution of the last 35 years. This is a revolution of tools, not yet of theory. As Max Planck pithily remarked upon reflection of his personal observations: “Science advances one funeral at a time.” That is the reality of this feudal hierarchy of the academic castles. To expect different of psychiatry is …delusional!. Don’t take this personally.

    Anyway…years back some “flat earther” decided to pass about to the unscientifically sophisticates … the stupidity that AIDS was not really a disease with a physical cause because it did not leave the forensic evidence as 17th and 18th and 19th century medical science had listed , vetted and canonized as the requirements. They were not wrong in the list. they were not fully informed as we still are not. But we are more fully informed than they were then. Yet most can not make use to go from informed to wise. or do not see the challenge, do not consider it their paycheck…their job.

    As the static, allopathic idea SLOWLY fades to well deserved oblivion, we have masses of evidence pointing to interplay and “balance”. We have chemicals in synapses and we have thee genes that “control” that synaptic “balance”. Just dimly do we have the mathematically overwhelming questions that will answers that AND, I feel, will mesh with older systems (and yes, the disgusting “new age” hypes…or few of them anyway…a very few). I have yet to see one brain study addressing “Dynamic Equilibrium” in the context of an obviously dynamic cycle. it is known as “bipolar disorder” It is not one thing but several, disguised as a unity merely by a billing hashtag and unthinking theoreticians and practicioners. Thank health that RDoC is recognizing that illness does not respect (our ) labels!!!!!#!!!. I suggest you spend a lot of spare time catching up on this area. You could be useful again. Again, don’t take this as a personal slight.

    Yes, language matters. So does knowing how to use it and how to discriiminate where the issues are. The issues are not with trying to improve some peoples lives but with the theoris and interventions we use. One is the baby. Please don’t join those who would throw out the observation that baby x is turning blue and getting ready to die. Mental illness as well as mental discomfort exists. Learn to discriminate, Do not allow others to confound the differences in this flat-earth and anti-science Stupidity that has infested the debate.

    As happens frequently, i see you as an example of a centerist who by happenstance has found a place that resonates and promises to listen. B . ut which also has other agenda you might not be aware the consequences of, and whose “advocates” partake of new age foolishness. Nor do I have reason to think you informed of the mid century political traditions that have informed the narrative. Don’t take it personally. You were deep into the system and trying to do good.

    Enough for now. Digest it please. It is the result of more than 25 years of listening to what others have concluded is true. more than twice as many years.

  • how odd to see a mad proponent saying what we want too. “lets give up ‘mental illness’ and say ‘brain disease’, lets get out of the behavioral health b.s. and get the SMI to a neurologic doc.”

    and yes there is DISABILITY. like mental retardation that seeps into autistic spectrum and basic systems of circuits we now see missing but not along the traditional diagnostic boundaries. there are underlying deficiencies. the romanticism of manic highs can not put it all under the rug, and trying to is so dishonesst. it is a disability to not be able to deed ones self, a certain genius also happens to have a disability. he was also abused by a wife. genious and victim and disability all in one well known package. get over the whinning and denialss!

  • polite does not mean wishy washy. there is a way ti be forcefulll but polite. I disagree with you giving permission to give up polite.

    What you probably miss by being impolite is the chance to read how this is common to both anti psy and pro psy sides of this dumb divide.

    your side neglects those who finally get meds right. the pro med neglects the impolite stories of those who could never get a right med.

  • new gen compounds are, some of them, not just sertonin inhancing but nomalizing. they reverse their signal when things go tooo high, they are not about a simple synaptic level hammer approach. we will see how these atypicals work out. another came out for parkinson dementia that does not have the parkinson “side” effects. remember that the real science of designing and understanding the variations is only a few decades old. hardly time to establish long term safety. and i cant for the life of me wnder why just the other ppsychosis app being “on label”

  • but we cant work as one as long as you spread error about how when and as alternate to what the AOT would be used. it isnt about a street sweep. it is about a diversion fro jail. is that unreasonable? you have been misled if you buy into the bad family will snap fingers b.s. this is why i com across so mad at MAD sometimes. as for accepting the harms as told in story,,, that is truth,sadly harmed by the Story that came from ?/////////////Mad and all other flat earth throwbacks,

  • we could be all working to separate the 4% of gen pop who have the SMI forms of disorders and really do need the drugs. that they are here 1/2 means of a pill taking population not the gen pop. it would be odd math if they were that and only SMI tho, considering how many are in the 2/3 but not fully born SMI geneticlly. Which, I believe, speaks to the grey area between necessary and sufficient, between born natal chi and …..ACES experiences that literally reset genes (epigenetics) not by mutattion but by EXPRESSION, methylations of the working site on gene spiral DNA parked there clicking and chugging along chug chug.

    We could all be on the same side to fix things! cept for fixatioons on yesterday and past ills and our lingering regrets over the losses.

  • please do not refer to THE MEDICAL MODEL. refer to the Allopathic medical model. there are others. science does not belong to them alone. they are, wonderfully, coming to reflect the older ways and even deepening our details by the wonderful tools of technology. in case you wonder, I am of TCM and a big dose of modern meridian theory via ramon y cajals and alan turing and the NIH as well. and I have less respect than you for the gneral theory that still infects us with a school that came from Heildeburg with designer fencing scars on its faces and the slogan of poison and knife. don’t paint us with tht big fat brush!!!

  • i strongly agree that the chances of looking like a major brain disease is very strong when the causes were from early on, went for years and even more so with one to many of the vast number of implicated genetic predispositions. There is a term for this settling in of symptoms that are externally caused which after time are near indistinguishible from born inclination. but this is the reality of all ballanc and unballance. too much yin causes too much yang, yang expires, ….every course is different but the basic causes are not. thiis is hard fr western minds. Mad errs one way, the pharmq another way. Ironic for your side more, perhaps, is the way thi will be unwoven as science gets a look under the hood, and gets away from philosophy like observed behavior and stories of labels. there are labels. they are genetic phenotypes, not ondervations of behaviors. don’t we all detet such surface decisions as are made? bet we have had, such as it has been. some saved, some not. and so we move along. your long term reaction are due to EPIGENETIC resets. they can be shown to transcend generations and be passed on. studies in ww2 famine victims, ptsd among euro jewry have been sturuied. perhap all down the 7 generations of how many the bible says of sins persistence?

  • bad mechanics, dangerous politicians and quack docs. see the common thread? people are not created equall either ethicaly or intellectually. A bad mechanc does not prove rodds don’t get burned or rings bipass raw gas to the oil. A marcos or a pol pot does not mean we should all live spearate clansperson lives. a rapist gynecologist does not put the lie to theories of uterine cancer or other diseases made up just for their purient interrests.
    There are courtss for remedy against those docs. I have read several “standard of cars” suits just this week.

  • @bpd. It seems the point of the story linked.
    *****The medical concept of schizophrenia was historically a contested category within health and social care, he said….”It’s a concept understood by some to be an illness of biological origin, and by others, as a stigmatising label for a sometimes troubling pattern of experiences and behaviours.”….The legal decision allowed the recognition of childhood sexual abuse as one factor in in the development of schizophrenia…,.An ACC spokeswoman said the 2013 court decision sparked a review of its research literature….The organisation’s policy now accepted the development of schizophrenia may involve a complex interaction between genes and environmental factors…..”ACC continues to carefully consider each person’s unique situation and circumstances.”*****
    M.IA. did not well reflect this in their lead. I believe they are still smarting from the establishment coming to agree that the behavioraly oriented DSM is wrong. Of course they still disagee on who & what is right.
    Research sees several clusters of genes , discrete conditions that are captured under the umbrella “schizophrenia” but i think that hints at something beside a spectrum, a smooth continuum. Even a maieve observer might put the same sceptical conclusion to the “autism spectrum” low to high function…
    My amayeur opinion but everyone needs more himility and less macho turf scenting. It seems the real spectrum is between “necessary” and “sufficient” camps then spread sideways on all possible nature vs nurture permutstions. Resulting in a grid, a 2 d specyrum space of turf claims

  • so this is my takeaway, and reflects why I try to avoid this webpage. MIA prefers to protect the SMI from the indignity and coercion of involuntary (did not go seek it) treatment. They prefer this while ignoring the too likely consequence of involuntary jail and beatings by n.y’s. finest. MIA prefers the courts of law to a mental health court?

    A little liberty saved is worth a mans life…do I read you right?

  • From my reading she did not have symptoms long enough for their assertion. nor did they even permit her to havr physiological testing for cfs or mytochondrial disorder. thats enough to take to court over. its a human problem not a profession problem. but it falls on the profession to clean house. keep up the pressue. no squeakie. ..no fixie

  • Excuse my faulty interface. im interested in improving outcomes for those who survive with drugs or never recover or who kill themselves. not a slave to standard drug intervention. id like to see more “alt” ie pre pharma era medicine…even some of the orthomolecular tx. labs are discovering what.might parse good viy mineral etc.interventions. i am most interested in anti inflamatory treatment which sees the behavior as a redult of “non-psychologic” underlying problems…immunilogical in particular. i am for.evidence pushing change, not philosophy per se.

  • Fiaracha. i hear you and do not doubt that talk and support worked for you and were sufficient. i believe every case needs this, which requires any form of “intervention.”

    Often anti-psych or anti-pharma ppimt.to an uncontested observation which is this: a great # of first event of psychotic behavioral symptoms…around 1/3 if i recall… remit WITHOUT intervention of any.sort. perhaps 1/4 more are in your category of remission with talk and support. the rest, under 1/2 of the group, do recovery with stronger interventions which include drugs, or are those who DO NOT RECOVER and there we coint also those who die principally as psychotics who suicide at very high numbers.

    Its a defensible.position this unrevovrred group contains a set who were harmed by drugs. and another subset who were pporly served by bad or no talk/support in their “standard tx” intrrvention.

    Im happy for your recovery but.more imterested in parsing what will help those who need.more and in understanding what more is best and does.no/least harm. While accepting psy drugs for short.term, i see the dsnger of forever drugging. .still i know of the cases that stay.alive with symptom.free spells or long stretches…only with drugs. that is where we ARE.

    IMm not.going to advocate stopping but am interested in proving that class and preventing suicide. i hear the concerns every day of mothers who’s sons are suicidal and rarely on wstch in our prisons.

  • I would hope we were passed detailing the distinction betwern what is symptom.what is causr. yes i understsnd hierarchy of comcrpts and set theory snd nesting. and i know that errors of subset includions do not invalodate the higjet order voncrpt.unlesd they are exhaustive. .i.e..lead to a nul set or no duch sumptoms at all.

  • @steve in portland and the abused foster children below on this thread…even we in the pro drugs camp are repulsed by treatment operations that expell “consumers” for having symptoms that led them there. its a true catch 22 that we all need to stop.

    As for my delinestion of indogenous. ..i dont have one because all depends on nature and nurture. we need to remenber this and not mske genetslized proclamations based on “this one came thru” or “this one was crushed by.” predeliction (genetics or prior experiences) are part of each human ¨consumer.” acying to ignore or diminish the dignificance of it is cookie cutter sloth and a sign someone chose the wrong career.

    Ttaditional chinese medicine talks of shallow and drrp symptoms. my investigation has been to the question “when does mood (tranient ) become affect (persistent. .personality). i believe timelones are idiosyncratic and depend on both genetics and experience even that in womb. i hope this clarifies it. id like to know more of your CASA work in pdx. i wss court advocate in Ws some while ago and have an urge to re involve. no fan of the c.”p.” s system.

  • My agteement and the words of insel are to the effect that observable “behavior” is a mere clue and often off mark. Lets say patient presents with pain and yellow eyes. doc gives drops to whitten eyes sends patient away all cured. too common. do you not agree? Differential Diagnosis does tests for various jaundice causes. it looks at liver fxn, viral and bacterial load, drinking history, exposure to toxins like metals…

  • And if it does, its another tragedy. to shortcircuit grief is to thwart working thru it. if i agree with a few tenants here on mad in am this is a big one. psy drugs have s place and blues are not it. lifes issues coming up are not the place. if tslk support and time dont redolve things then ask the drug q agsin. but stoll ask before writing.

  • After someone confides suicidal thoughts…only then! you have some bad experience behind your reaction or some prejudicial ideas. after talking and confiding…a subliminal (so low they dont feel it) dose is administered. it has been experimentally shown to work up to 2 werks. 2 weeks of engagement time. LSD OR THC would be nothing but irresponsible at that time. i dont have recollection of any responsible persons even whispering such drastic intervention for smi. for stable persons with some cognitive cspacitu later maybe. i considet the psilocybin advocates over optimistic and rash. again…dont let your past experience or prejudice color what you think im saying.

  • First some book keeping complaint. I find no place to start a comment to a comment in the system. So I am forced to do them here, divorced from the previous thread, the context.

    travailler-vous i’m not offended or ticked. I am a bit frustrated its taking us time to do the dog smell dog thing and to understand our different writing styles and “where we come from” content wise I am fascinated.

    Old head, I was if you could trace, in a conversation with trailser when you said I rambled. You call it ramble,,, i call it going from one previous thread to another previous thred without stoping to bring outsiders into what I presume my correspndent could follow.

    Rd. Hickey. I think the first critique of the metastudy would have been the “meta” rationale for “apples and oranges.” treated interchangeable. It seems to be a very frequent weak point, or at least a common place to open.

    As for the challenge to find a feeling …. not diagnosable. Well, if we have a diagnoise on one thing one time? are we doing much? but +the book, the outline..is not supposed to be used that way. condemn any who do it, even if its 90% of the field!

    Just, please, spare me any forced polarities about whasts what or not and it must be this or the other and evidence either proves or disproves. I find it a hard misrepresentation of reality used to simplify ones maps, little more.

    Dan Burdick: replying to your “alternatives to bigpharma/neuroleptics/”atypicals” question. You can see a parade of the “alternatives” in the hearings Tim Murphy did re SAMHSA: art or dance or painting as primary tx facility .”.we dont want to use any meds or any “diagnosis/stigmatics! and no “experts” just peers”. There’s a merry go round in Cal that got funded to end stigma, btw or attend the “alternatives Faire last year or next. Are you familiar with the term New Age? can you say medicine show without seeing some of the new Tx(reg tmark, copyright) as being as thin a veneer as any in the patent office, perhaps seeds “discovered in jungles, used there but “invented by the guy who thought of a trip through the patent process? No, I was not thinking of “alternative chemical/nutritional/orthomolecular things. Not at all. Thats a different thing and there, I am as “alt” (to use the paradigm of the ruling AMA dynasty) as thee. I am trying to figure it in the meridian sysstem. Liver fire, It seems the spleen is going to have to be in there with those side effects clusters…kidney, the regenerative rules the foliation and prunning…gutbrain as per the ciliac disease (some [people really think guts DONT leak? wow..) your links were fascinating. Seems some other commentators dont like orthomolecular one bit, well yes, I heard of a woman who was fine when her Calcium and D were taken down a few notches.

    me my

  • the day we accept extacy for PTSD etc, and Ketamine for a 2 week repressant of suicidal ideation ( that window is very important- those who come for Tx and take drugs often do the suicide within that time window, dugs seem not to matter. neuroleptics anyway) that day will be the very same as hells icing over.

  • where to start? I will pass. except to say you have a different take on Differential Diagnosis than I use and attack the profession for not using. D.D. ruling out all other causes for the symptoms. diseases, poisons lesions, clots etc…and then looking at the lenghth of time and variati9ons to get the right billing code…after D.D.

  • thanks for the in dept non attacking response.

    first it is not my profession. I am a Taoist Scholar, unemplyed mostly in this society so driven by cash and “advancement”

    my schooling was in psychology, emphasizing the senses and physical and light on the philosophy except my sociology classes where I encountered Szasz’s thought.

    As for pricks and “dr. God..etc… I hear it all the time from parents of children incarcerated or in supervision. I hear it from friends who are free to live outside on their own and are constantly running into it and fighting for a human person as therapist.

    So perhaps you can accept that my interest is benign. Again thanks.

    I and others focus on the moswt ill because others do not. We find it sad that there are those who seem to think we are trying to hog the system. I find it sadder that the system is so underfunded and that among the “alternatives” to neuroleptics there is so much obvious snake oil being presented. There is a large community watching and commenting on those treatments that package the obvious things, throw some “science” around it and patenet a system to take on tour for cash. It harms both sides of our difference because it confuses putsiders, us and those who cut the funds.

    As for ranting about TRANSIENT MENTAL ILLNESS! you have no idea how many lines I have devoted to MALFEASANCE by diagnosticians who never spend energy of consider other causes like blood clots, lymes disease, bromine intoxication, excessive calcium serum levels just to repeat some examples I have cited from concrete cases…or the reports of those who do care and the resistance they get from the blood draw and lab dept. as reported in a reply on Psychiatric Times . So I think your criticism here shows that we tend not to talk across this line, to ignore the discussions of “those people.” across the lines. There is a growing sympathy on the pro pharma side for the lived experience of the misdiagnosed. be quite sure of this fact. however certain opponents deride terms like “worried well” as demeaning. It is meant to distinguish those of sound mind and difficult times, the “blues” as I personally refer to it…from those with SMI/ bad biology. hence the issue over the 1 in 5 figure someone brought up here. Well its not 1 in 5 are SMI or need drugs even, but 1-5 will have PSYCHOLOGICAL issues SOMETIMES in their life. That might be a depression over a divorce where they blame themselves. All the drugs in the world wont touch the cause of that! It comes back to wrongfully portraying pro pharma as an ALL PHARMA ALL THE TIME solidarity. A false representation, a straw man!

    Most of those I correspond with see hospitals in their state aws a slight improvement to the alleys for their kids. Slightly better than living with the methheads or junkies they are preyed upon by. And many of them cry to visit kids who are not medicated medically but for ease of imprisonment. These are not issues we should remain divided over.

  • I had no idea those twin studies were “hallowed”, but it was a thought provoking read. I was struck by how much statistic methods have changed since the introduction of super computers and our ability to do pseudo random, drunks walk Beyesian analysis use Markovs chains and montecarlo on those new machines. It has certainly changed how we ask questions and find probables since the 1930’s!

    I said ther same thing about the “junk DNA hypothesis since day one. We now find out that a lot of it is “epigenetic” interface, which is how the genetic and the environment interact to reset the adaptation of the person. This is not just about adaptation to psych insults, trauma etc, but to many other genetically controlled things like methylation at the cell level and mitochondrial level perhaps. Thus the confusion still ,of low energy conditions mistaken for depression, or esp Major Depression as the underlying energetic paths are not addressed…points to the need to move beyond “behavioral” to labratory testable diagnostics. I know that word confounds a lot herre, as many comments to me have pointed out , but seem not to have a clue what the point is. I dont have that problem in other places where we think just looking at overt behavior is so yesterday…so 1930’s if you care.

  • “”It is not ‘freedom’ to be wandering the streets, severely mentally ill, deteriorating and getting warmth from a steam grate or food from a garbage can; that’s abandonment. And it is not ‘liberty’ to be in a padded jail cell instead of a hospital, hallucinating and delusional, without treatment because that is all the law will allow.”

    Dr Darold Treffert 1995 Wisconsin Act 292: finally, the fifth standard. Wis Med J. 1996;95:537-540.

    Those who turn away from forced treatments have no choice when the law comes into the case. They will be locked away. Treatment will certainly not commence with a string of kindly receptive ears seeking them out. Drugs will not be administered unless to freeze them. And they will be left tothe predations of other perversely sick inmates. Thats so much better, is it not? thats dignity and respect for life liberty and persuit of a happy life!

    Those who refuse force includes those who refuse unforced. So in you view, they are not worth your time. Thanks for being clear. None but the bowing to your positions, who act courteously and play by the rules like everyone else will be tolerated. Sorry…I have heard the tale too often to swallow!

  • I’m not objecting a big bunch here, but I will say it’s a myopic view of research publication at this point in its general de-evolution. Perhaps “optimistic” is a better word?I suggest you widen the blinders and reach out because there is great dammage being done in other fields. Yes you “pay lip service” but the focus sounds rather ill tempered and I doubt much will come from acting as if its worse here.

    If my newness to the topic is off base, I request a correction at your convenience.