Monday, December 5, 2022

Comments by Jens N. Roved

Showing 23 of 23 comments.

  • Lying to the public about research results and thus building a hype for investors to prey on through means of capitalizing on human suffering seems to be the new BLACK in biomedical science. A forerunner to the forthcoming free hunt on lesser human beings that will hit the entertainment industry in the future. Oh! Wait a minute… isn’t that already h…?

    “While other neurosurgeons are trying DBS experimentally for Alzheimer’s, addiction, obesity, anorexia, bipolar disorder and aggression (and it’s even been suggested to treat criminal behaviour)…”

    So… Soon ‘God’ help you if you are a criminal inmate serving three strikes… ‘Cause these people have their eyes turned on you… and they mean you no well.

  • Hi Alice,

    I think it is a good sign and shows that you care when you say that you think the Biomedical model is flawed and that side-effects and withdrawal-effects of psychotropic medicines are awful.

    In my opinion though the Biomedical model works for biological medicine and curing biological diseases and so on. But it should never ever have been implemented to guide psychiatry in the first place. It was never made for that and psychiatric problems are impossible to affiliate with biological disease models as the origins are very different. Yes, when it comes to symptoms you can medically affect symptoms by use of medicines (if you are willing to accept the side-effects, which I am not) but the biological model and medicines can in no way cure the origins of the symptoms as there is no biological disease behind them.

    The problem is that you then say that people will get marginalized by remaining truthful to themselves and denying the destructive forces of the disease model that guides psychiatry today.

    Well, Alice. People who accept the disease model and accepts when a psychiatrist says they are incurably ill from a biological brain disease… They are being marginalized, oppressed and exposed to great injustice just by that – whether they accept it or not.

    I do not agree that you will be more marginalized by not accepting the disease model as a patient. I have never accepted the disease model and I never received a microgram of psychotropic medicine – yet here I am. I finished my education, I am a voice hearer. I am working as an occupational therapist and I have two lovely little girls (asked me ten years ago and I would have said you were the delusional one). I am not marginalized in the same way as I would have been in the system – believe me, because my mother is actually a psychiatrist, so I believe I know how it is and how it would have been (I love her of course and we have many deep conversations but we also disagree on some things since she is more like you in terms of believing in primary psychoanalytic psychotherapy accompanied by secondary treatment via judicial use small doses of medicine).

    Believe me also when I said that at times in my life I could have been a candidate for being forcefully medicated and put in a closed ward – had I been unlucky enough. Instead at the most critical moments I tended to run into people who would help me rather than try to bend me their way or that way.

    Took me 30 years of my life to get this far (counting from the original trauma) and it will take me my whole life to get further but it is worth it all the way compared to being isolated in the system, single and with no hope for the future.

  • Thank you, Alex.

    If we look at the situation with my patient the Real problem is that other personel talked to me afterwards and they didn’t understand why I put up with it.

    What would have happened is that if I had left the situation and told her that I wouldn’t accept her talking to me like that, she would have gotten an injection, laid to rest and her frustration and fear and sorrow wouldn’t have been addressed.

    I saved her from that at that time but I am well aware that at other times she would have just been injected and escorted to her room.

  • Alice, see what you are doing is talk a lot about how you work, how you want to work, how you want others to perceive you and how you think others perceive you. I don’t really see you as going into the dialogue. You walk around it rather than actually relating to what is said. Like you are not really interested in relating to what others say. Instead you come across as repeating the same message about how you seek ‘genuine dialogue’ without ever getting to specify what that is and how to achieve it.

    In my book dialogue is dialogue. There is no ‘genuine’ dialogue which is potentially better than any other dialogue.

    Rather than inviting people to join you on facebook to see who you really are? You can also make an effort to show who you really are where the dialogue is taking place here and now? That means at the MIA site. You don’t need to defend how you come across by saying that what you do on facebook is totally different (and better you seem to imply?).

    When it comes to guilt then there must be some sort of concession from the system and the people who represents it before there can be a talking about reconciliation. You must understand this. You can not expect the service users to lie down flat and get trampled while you speak through the proverbial megaphone saying that everything is ok and it is just a matter of smoothening out differences in the coffee club. It will not help those who are trapped in the system getting hurt and getting their kids taken away from them at this very moment.

    Lastly you talk about that you don’t want to go further into dialogue about the topic because you do not want more defensive/aggressive action to take place.

    Well… You say that you want to have dialogue yet when the going gets tough you bail out…

    Is that seeking dialogue?

    One time I sat with a patient for half an hour amidst a lot of other personel in the dinner hall at my work and she would yell at me and tell me what a downright incompetent and unhelpful occupational therapist I was. I sat there and listened and explained my limitations and my potential and I very carefully told her that I was there as a resource to her and that I was perfectly fine with her using me as a resource to vent her frustrations with me (as well as the system, I suppose). After she calmed down she gave me a big hug and kissed me on the cheek and said I was wonderful.

    How would you have it? Would you have expected me to bail out on her saying that I wouldn’t tolerate her aggression?

    Warm regards


  • Sera, I for one do not see any of this critique as aggressive personal attacks at all. I see it as a way to try to reach out in order to have a dialogue rather than one-way communication. Your reply here contains all the qualities that I wish for in any health care professional. If we start right there we are on a great pathway to start communicating with each other.

  • In the end you can put on a robe that will color you blind and you will work exactly as you are instructed and then at the end of the day you will go back to being yourself and exclaim at the dinner table what a wonderful client-centered practice you are part of without one clear thought about the colossal schism between what you practice and what you preach.

  • Yeah, I do not believe in *hell* and *heaven*. I believe that is a human construct. I may buy into the idea of something metaphysical about our world but I find no answers in any conventional religion constructed by humans.

    Human actions can in and off themselves be *hellish* enough and I suppose that is why such a concept needed to be constructed to try and seek answers to the incredible cruelty we can invoke on each other as well as ourselves but again I find no answers nor any redemption or solutions in any conventional religion to these questions. In most religions I find the same oppressive forces that I find in the psychiatric biomedical system.

    You don’t make me mad or anything by saying what you believe in. I can communicate fine with you regardless of your beliefs and whether I share them or not.

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts and giving me the opportunity to share mine. 🙂

  • What we can do is try to be to others what we want others to be to us. In our doing we become and if we want to leave a footprint of doing and becoming just, social, together, non-oppressed and so on then we need to do and become exactly that. Only by our own doing we can become.

    I was sexually abused as a child but I have not become a rapist by possession of some evil force. Rather to the contrary I am trying my very best to do stuff that I can stand for and which will not make me become my bleakest experiences.

  • Ah but I beg to differ. There are acts that can be considered harmful and destructive to a state that you would call it evil. But I do not believe in the concept of evil. It is a human construction. I believe in every action in the world has a prehistory and people may have destruction on their mind when acting in a certain way or they may intentionally want to harm someone in their way but is it evil? Like evil would require some sort of angelic existence… I do not believe in this. I believe humans in and off themselves can be terrible and cruel and menacing but I also believe that is our own responsibility and our own footprint into the world and we cannot excuse it by some angelic evil force acting through us.

  • Sorry, I just don’t see the world in *Good and Evil*. I think Good vs. Evil is a religious construction that only leads to fear, harm and ultimately warfare.

    When I talk about oppression, marginalization, alienation, injustice, incarceration, isolation, life shortening practices and deprivation I see that as social problems with social-societal solutions. I do not think warfare will change things for the better.

  • There is no big difference between democrats and republicans and that is the real problem.

    Like if you are against using torture and military force and want CIA and NSA closed down then who are you to vote for?

    You cannot imagine yourself in a dialogue and cooperation with them because you cannot get yourself to support what they do.

    The exact same problem is present for any survivors out there who find themselves unable to support the life-shortening, unjust and scientifically corruptive biomedical psychiatry.

    I understand the need for reconciliation but I also understand very well why psychiatric survivors would be unwilling to reconcile with their tormentors when it is so obvious that there is no political change due and there are so few biomedical psychiatrists who even understand the harm the system is inflicting.

    Warm regards


  • Alright. Point taken. What I was trying to say with regards to projective identification is that I hold no grudges on you for being an MD yet the first thing you did when responding to me was to project on me some sort of biased dislike of psychiatrists and MD’s.

    That means I have to take a sidestep in the comment topic to explain that I have no problems with psychiatrists and it lowers the credibility of what I really wanted to communicate being that the way of communication needs some reflecting upon (that I would have written even if you were not a psychiatrist or MD).

  • Certainly I am not lumping you together with the oppressors. Who are they? The system itself is oppressive. Like most systems being gradually distorted by fear and “angst”.

    What I want you to understand is that the way you communicate your thoughts is counterproductive and offensive. You should self-reflect on that rather than attacking those who dare say it to you because those people are not out to make you a monster. They actually attempt at changing your ways of communicating through dialogue.

    What is so depressing is that if even you who claim to be working against oppression is not prepared to listen to and take in the dialogue and reflect upon it yourself then how much of an uphill angle and slippery slope do you think it is to get people like Lieberman to listen and reflect upon what a voice-hearer would have to say?

  • Would you say and defend then the proposition that if someone is doing more harm than good (though having all the good intentions) then we should defend his/her actions? Is that what you say? Because that sits very very well with oppression. So much oppression is founded in wanting to do good and having all the right intentions and it is jet fueled by those who dare not speak against it and those who defend it by saying these people (oppressors) are not bad people.

    Here is a learning lesson for you. You are right. The oppressors are not necessarily bad people. Often they are cultivated and sweet. The misconception is that this is about them as persons. It is NOT. It is about how they act (as professionals). So it is their actions and not their wonderful persona that is being critiqued and rightfully so!

    Say you have a system like ‘New Public Management’ which in many cases forces and educate people to act against their conscience and common sense. Those are not bad people. But they still act in a way that should be criticized. The whole system should be criticized and the ivory towers torn down. Not because it consists of bad people but because the most scary scenario is good people acting in the service of good in order to oppress and shorten the lives of those they are trying to help because they act within a flawed framework/system.

    By saying that you need to build bridges between ‘hot stoves’ within this system is an angelic thought but since I am not a religious guy and since the whole system is flawed beyond despair then the very notion that there are bridges to build would only serve as a feeding line for the oppressing machinery. This is not about good versus evil. It never was. It is about getting rid of oppression, marginalization, alienation, injustice, incarceration, isolation, life shortening practices and deprivation and you could put ‘occupational’ in front of all of those.

    Only your actions (not your words) define you before your peers.

    I for one would be very eager to hear and reflect upon and go into dialogue with those who criticize what I do – and be willing to act upon it. That sets a divide between me and the system. Not between me and say Lieberman as a person. Between me and the system he represents. If he cannot handle critique of how he chooses to act from the high position then someone should pull the ivory tower out of the pole position. It might have the beneficiary side effect of relieving his buttocks.

    Warm regards