Ron, I admit that my statement may be factually incorrect. I am not an expert in the history of the gay rights movement. My point is that whether they talked or not, it wouldn’t have made any difference in the course of events. In accordance with Stephen Gilbert beliefs, it was society as a whole that caused the change in the DSM, not some direct discussions between gay activists and the APA. You just need to learn of Paula Caplan’s experience to convince yourself that’s how it happened. If you look into the works of Jaakko Seikkula you’ll find references to russian literary critics not to Kraepelin. Open Dialogue may be part of a state healthcare system but it’s methods have nothing to do with medicine. The Open Dialogue group in Finland uses psychotropics as anesthesia. I wonder if they believe as I do that psychiatry should be considered a branch of anesthesiology.