I’m really surprised no one else has chimed in here. This is a huge issue which impacts every person with a psychiatric diagnosis. So why aren’t we discussing it?
If you can sell it, then it’s a street drug.
Actually, to be brutally honest, that is not the case for ALL members of the Black Lives Movement.
Sera, with the greatest of respect and indeed admiration, I think you’re misreading the post. If there is terminology that is offensive to minority individuals, by all means, let us know. I was well, well, well into my 40s before I learned that to use the word “gyp” was to slur the Roma. Okay, so I never used the word again. I have another example but it’s for our trans gender friends. You know the one I’m talking about, I think. Rhymes with Granny. We can’t help if we don’t know the issues.
But those two conditions so often occur simultaneously! May I share a little too much information? I’m manic right now. That’s why I stay up all night and type 160 w.p.m. comments all over the internet. I need some downers but none are available. Well, that’s what Christie’s Pub is for! I think I drank, oh, maybe 8 pints of beer yesterday and will likely do the same today. What should I do?
For those of us with ADHD, could you summarize a couple for us?
Are you new here? I don’t recall seeing any other post by you. If so, WELCOME!
I’m only 50.
I concur. Heartily. And I don’t often say that about one of Frank Blankenship’s posts. 🙂
Francesca
Of all the minorities (skin colour, religion, age, disability, gender, etc.), I think it’s fair to say that the mentally ill have the toughest row to hoe. We are, after all, the only minority that has an entire legal structural mechanism separate and quite apart from what everybody else lives under, including our Blacks and trans people.
This is entirely speculation, of course, and I don’t actually want to BE anybody else but life would be easier in some ways if I were Black and gay. Mind you, I say this as a middle-class person so perhaps I don’t know what I’m talking about. Again. Sigh.
Holy Shit, Frank! I completely agree with absolutely every word you said. Have a great day.
Sera, could you please tell me if the Globe is a respectable newspaper? Is it like the New York Times? I’ve never read it. I’m just trying to gauge how much impact the article(s) is/are having. Where is the article being discussed? And should we move our discussion there for now?
I don’t want to argue with you and I’ve been politely nudged out of this thread so I must leave. Here’s my last thought on the subject: I am white, female, middle-class and certifiably insane. I ALWAYS use the term First Nations. I ALWAYS capitalize Black. I ALWAYS refer to trans people exactly how they tell me to. I do every fucking thing that I can to treat the people around me with dignity and respect. In this regard, I am guilty of NOTHING. Sorry if this offends you.
Why would I “admit” something that is false, though?
Can’t read you. Are you being sarcastic? Is this a jibe against Szasz?
Thank you for this. Yeah, I’m not supposed to post in this thread, I know.
My expert opinion is rooted in lived experience. I’ve been dealing with this issue since 2002. Please email me at [email protected]
But why doesn’t “suffering” suffice as a descriptor? What else would you call severe depression or psychotic mania but suffering?
I think you have really nailed it here. For me, the world is too “loud.” I am bombarded with sights, sounds, feelings, colours, memories, dreams …. I have to work hard to keep it dialed down. When I can’t manage, which is usually when I am stressed, then I exhibit mania. It’s not truly mania, though; it’s insomnia. If anybody ever suffers from a manic episode, please contact me at [email protected] I can help. I live on Vancouver Island, British Columbia.
Francesca
What a beautiful post. Thank you. You should write your own article.
Okay, I bow out of the thread. As you were.
Your first sentence is factually incorrect.
Anything that has “as a white person” contained in it indicates I’m not going to like the post. Sorry, Sera. I do admire your work and I want to be your ally. There are no BLACK/WHITE/BLUE/ALL Lives Matter movements that are going to be taken seriously. Where do you read stuff? Like, what news sources do you use? Forget about the Glob for now. Look around, surf the net, you’ll find what you need. I know you can do it and I believe in you, Sera.
Donald Trump is going to be your Fucking President! This is the best thing that’s happened to the USA in my entire 50 years. I’m applying for dual citizenship pronto.
Nonsense. It is people’s insanity that causes them to suffer. Whatever means are available to help a crazy person should be employed. That may require sedation. Just stating the facts. Let me tell you a story about my own struggles with bipolar mania:
Fernwood Inn/Victoria City Police
Penny Farthing Pub
Bon Sushi/Oak Bay Police
Pandora Assertive Community Treatment Team
Vancouver Island Crisis Line
Contact any of these establishments and have them email me at [email protected] I will give them full permission to release their files to any journalist who cares to write about the issue. My vote is for Susan Inman of the Huffington Post or, better yet, of The Walrus (a Canadian magazine).
No need to apologize, Sera. Truly, I was only telling you what you should do. I’m aware that you won’t. The other side ridicules the organic sultanas because it’s not peer-reviewed respectable research. Sorry.
I didn’t read your whole comment but I just wanted to throw out here that the journalist we need on our side is Susan Inman of the Huffington Post. Her book “After Her Brain Broke” is on its way to my house from amazon.ca as we speak.
Double bonus: Ms. Inman is seriously backed by the big players (Torrey, Jaffe, etc.) She also writes for The Tyee. Don’t get mad at me for saying this, please, but Susan Inman is our friend. Be nice to her.
Forget about the Glob.
And did you ever see the movie “Side Effects”? Positively chilling.
Fiachra, are chlorpromazine and Thorazine the same drug? 1st generation antipsychotic?
Very familiar with Seroquel. Last time I was in the bin, I was offered breakfast and I declined, saying offhandedly that I preferred to starve to death. Well, that’ll only get you more drugs, right? The stupid bitch gave me a Seroquel & Ativan combo to stave off my latent anorexia. (Sorry to be so flip but I have just had enough of this bullshit for a lifetime. I’m sure you have, too.) By the way, I weigh 130 pounds, not the least bit underweight.
Sounds like an awful lot of meds. Holy shit! Don’t recognize some of the names. Are you in North America?
Haven’t experienced that kind of withdrawal. Guess my body chemistry is just different from yours.
Was your ECT voluntary? Or was it “voluntary”? Or was it forced? Those are actually 3 different things. Are you aware of Linda Andre’s wonderful book “Doctors of Deception”? I highly recommend it (although it will likely make you angry).
Anyway, I’m so glad you made it through for yourself and also the world so that you can speak the truth. You’re a hero. I truly mean that. Best wishes,
Francesca
Uh huh. And what would the banners say?
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Fiachra, which drug are you talking about?
I know you’ve had a tough time. I’m sorry. Don’t let your rage and despair blind you, though.
Why do people shy away from evidence?
I like your post. I gather it was in response to the post before, which I could make neither heads or tails of. Could you please state the issue succinctly?
If you told me what an ADR is, I could perhaps follow your comments.
Humanity. Capitalism. I think I know the definitions of both words. Help me out here. What is the purpose of this post of yours?
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Frankly, I’m surprised this thread hasn’t seen more action. What are you people afraid of? The truth?
Frank B., let’s get serious. There was a homeless guy outside of Tim Horton’s the other day. He was, quite frankly, fucked up. How would the abolition of mental health legislation actually help this person? I gave him a couple bucks. What did you do?
I consulted Dr. Abram Hoffer in Victoria, BC in 1987(?) or so. He was an orthomolecular psychiatrist and prescribed niacin and a bunch of other shit for “anxiety bordering on schizophrenia.” I don’t know what to make of that. I’m surprised a plain multi-vitamin fucked you up.
Boans, is this in a hospital? Where are the boy’s parents in all this? Is the boy suffering from a mental illness?
You’re not entitled to a stand on Black Lives Matter unless you’re black. Are you black? From your photograph, it wouldn’t appear so. Yes, our struggles have common themes. But come on!
Tranquilizers rock. Take them as required. Sell them if you have too many. Don’t use APs. Use benzos but don’t get addicted.
Nice going, dlj. Keep up the good work.
Where is the trauma in medical care? Serious question.
You are a “survivor” of a middle class family? Hey! Join the club. Do you also hate your job? Does your wife not understand you? Well, guess what?
What is an “evidence-based model”? In real life?
Psychiatry is doing the best it can. If you have a problem with it, then come up with something better.
Excuse me, what is the problem with “safe and effective”?
Oldhead, you can’t file a claim without a cause of action. Well, actually you can … but that’s another story. Tell me exactly what your beef is, please. Who needs to be sued? What did they do wrong? What do you hope to accomplish?
@ Boans
I do not want wish to watch the video. Please tell me what happens there (briefly, please).
Could I please have it explained to me what exactly the Globe did wrong?
Are you suggesting that blacks were free until the whiteys wanted some Risperdal? Help me, I’m stumped.
Could you explain this to me in a way I could understand?
Once again, I agree with RR. We are a movement (I guess) comprising the mad. No doubt, some of us are black. I guess it’s extra awful when you’re black and mad? I don’t know because I’m white. Straight talk, this isn’t helping us. Please reconsider this line of argument.
Sera, in solidarity … it’s all the same thing. Crazy people are getting fucked over.
If the issue is forced treatment, then my “axe to grind” belongs here. If you wish me elsewhere, so be it. Have a nice day.
Well, I guess not because we have to refer to the brilliant and eminent Peter Singer and his “vacuous principle” to make the right choice. Before I get piled on, let me tell you that the quotation is from one Doctor Thomas Szasz.
I must say this philosophical bullshit is getting beyond tedious. Deal with the real issue: Crazy person writhing on the floor and screaming that her hands and feet are on fire. What shall we do? Pull out “The Myth of Mental Illness” and read it to her? Fuck around.
Or you could crank it up a notch and just dialogue with them, Sera.
Szasz said involuntary treatment was a crime against humanity. Okay. Let’s just fucking ignore the suffering. Great. You know what’s a real crime? Not using your God given intelligence to assess and critically analyze an issue. It’s not an education thing. Children can figure this stuff out and that seems to stump a lot of you “activists.” Go to Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside. Picture Szasz strolling amongst the drug addicts and the chronically schizophrenic. You people are being laughed at.
Szasz was a nincompoop academic who sat in his easy chair and pontificated about the lower classes. Give it up, dude.
Do you guys want to be listened to? Then start making sense.
People, can we do a thought experiment? Let’s suppose Francesca takes on BC’s Mental Health Act and wins what she’s fighting for, abolition of community health care. Let’s pretend that’s been done and I’m sitting here typing on my computer, not feeling particularly well but managing to keep it together. HOW IS IT MORE DANGEROUS FOR THERE TO BE A MENTAL HOSPITAL RIGHT DOWN THE STREET WHERE I NEED TO BE RIGHT NOW WHEN THAT IS EXACTLY WHERE I THINK I SHOULD GO YET THEY WON’T TAKE ME BECAUSE THEY DON’T LIKE ME BECAUSE I THREW A CUP OF COFFEE AT SOME STUPID BITCH WHO PROBABLY DESERVED IT AND NOW I HAVE A FUCKING CRIMINAL RECORD AND CAN’T GET OUT OF THE COUNTRY AND I’M HIGHLY SKILLED LEGAL ASSISTANT AND I CAN’T FIND A FUCKING PROPER JOB BECAUSE JONES EMERY FIRED ME WHILE I WAS RECOVERING FROM A SUICIDE ATTEMPT AND I COULDN’T GET TREATMENT WHEN I WAS MANIC AND THE MAN I LOVED MORE THAN THE WHOLE WORLD JUST COULDN’T TAKE IT ANY MORE AND LEFT ME AND THEN I GOT INTO THIS FUCKING RIDICULOUS STRING OF LAWSUITS AND THEY STOLE MY MONEY AND MADE A FOOL OUT OF ME AND JC WORD ASSIST WOULDN’T HIRE ME FOR THE PERFECT JOB BECAUSE I HAVE A FUCKING CRIMINAL RECORD SO I SUED THEM UNDER THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT AND WE SETTLED BUT THAT LEAVES ME WORKING AT ELAN DATA ENTRY FOR $15 AN HOUR AND I CAN ONLY WORK FOUR HOURS A DAY BECAUSE MY STRESS LEVEL IS THROUGH THE ROOF AND ALL I DESPERATELY WANT IS A SHOT OF ACCUPHASE AND THERE IS NOBOBY ON DR. NELSON COLLINS’ TEAM THAT UNDERSTANDS THE ISSUES EXCEPT ALEXIS AND SHE WENT OFF TO SOME BUREAUCRATIC GIG AND BRENDA DIDN’T RETURN A FUCKING URGENT CALL FROM A CLIENT THAT INVOLVED THE VICTORIA CITY POLICE COMING TO THE FERNWOOD INN YESTERDAY AFTERNOON AND THE POLICE LEFT ME THERE BECAUSE I WAS JUST A NORMAL PERSON SO DON’T BITCH TO ME ON THIS SITE ABOUT YOUR PETTY BULLSHIT YOU’RE FUCKING MORONS I HATE I AM SWEARING OFF THE INTERNET AND GOING TO BUY SOME CIGARETTES YES I KNOW I DON’T SMOKE BUT IT’S TOO EARLY TO START DRINKING METHINKS
Note that I’m fine now but I am not receiving telephone calls at this time. Have a great day, everyone.
Excuse me, why exactly is it “crooked” to overcharge for food? Are they not declaring the income as taxable? What the hell is the problem?
Can you give me the lowdown on Seth Farber? Never heard of him.
Oops. Missed the word “friend.”
I just saw the word cannabis and stopped reading. My dear, dear, dear in Vancouver thinks smoking pot is good for her. Well, it’s not. Pot makes you stupid in the long term and sometimes psychotic in the short term. I entirely support legalization but let’s not pretend it’s some benign substance. It ought to be ranked with alcohol.
There is no appropriate civil suit. What is the basis of your claim? That you were naked and screaming and couldn’t look after yourself so the police roughed you up (possibly) and you were taken to an Emergency Room? Boo Hoo!
For fuck’s sakes, if you don’t want involuntary treatment, THEN STAY WELL YOURSELF!
It’s not morality but thanks for your kindness anyway. I have just had it with the anti-psychiatry movement. I’m sorry but I’m going to be a lone wolf from here on. Withdrawal in disgust is not the same as apathy.
Haven’t read the article yet, sorry, but “peer support” means different things to different people. It might be an empathetic friend who struggles with a similar issue. It might be an Assertive Community Treatment Team member who has swallowed the Kool Aid and insists that you do, too. Here’s look you at, Corey, of the PACT team in Victoria, British Columbia!
Community mental health care has been an unmitigated disaster.
Okay, so Big Pharma has shitloads of money and has corruption in the ranks. So what? Some of those medications are life-saving. Why do you think I’m safe and sane right at this moment? That’s right! Because I’m on meds (until they wear off, at which time I’ll be at work). Work is therapeutic and positive. That’s why I’ve been there since 1998.
They’re ALL crooked sellouts. That’s what politics is. You’re raging and raging because the sky is blue. Grow up.
IT DOES NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ignorance of the issues and an inability to critically examine them threatens your rights. Christ, I need a break from this site. Have a good day, everyone. Stay safe. If you get into a “situation,” just go limp. Drop to the ground. I guarantee you if you are in Canada and white, you won’t get shot (by a police officer, anyways).
Nobody cares if you take medication. They care that you stay well and don’t bother other citizens. That’s not a lot to ask. Find whatever route works for you. Organic sultanas (tip of the hat to RR for that one), yoga, vigorous physical exercise, massive doses of Risperdal, WHO GIVES A SHIT? Just stay safe, people!
Yet, I’m afraid to go outside now because I’m all wired with too much caffeine and email correspondence. I owe my employer four hours of work today. I emailed my supervisor to confirm that I would be in AT SOME POINT before 1:00 this afternoon. Fine. It’s now 7:07 a.m. Maybe I could get a little more sleep, listen to a little music, make myself a protein-filled breakfast.
You guys have your hearts in the right place but you’re going about this all wrong. I’ve been dealing with this since 2002. Here’s what I know:
– if you don’t act crazy, the police won’t beat you
– they beat you because they are afraid of you
– mentally ill people can be violent. That’s just a fact. I’m a middle-aged, well-behaved 50 year white female living in Oak Bay. I have a criminal record that includes ASSAULT. Because the hospital wouldn’t take me in when I and everybody around me knew that I desperately needed medical treatment.
– I didn’t get help until I got into the criminal justice system. Don’t let that happen to you. Be proactive and set up a plan
Fuck, you guys piss me off sometimes. It’s nothing personal. It’s just your impotent rage at those nasty psychiatrists and those evil police officers isn’t going to get you any traction. Crank it up a notch. We’re at the start of a revolution.
What the fuck is a crazy person supposed to do? I’ve made my decision. You’ll have to read about on Hassman’s blog. Best wishes.
Good for you for finding what works for you. Here’s my treatment plan:
Nozinan p.r.n.
Risperdal p.r.n.
Reduced work week to 20 hours
Advanced Directive in place with doctor and parents.
The irony of it is that I BEG for treatment but am denied. I was at the Fernwood Inn in Victoria, BC yesterday afternoon and I was in TERRIBLE shape. I told the bartender and the waitress and they were very cool with it, just making sure I had what I needed (which happened to be lots of water, a pen and paper, a single cigarette, a ride to Oak Bay Avenue).
Phone calls were made to: Victoria City Police Department, the Pandora Assertive Community Treatment, and also to my employer. So guess what happened????
Sounds good to me. If there’s nothing wrong with you, then why the fuck are you receiving disability benefits? I receive $900 a month from the Canada Pension Plan. I would much prefer to work full-time but that is just not possible with my bipolar disorder. Deal with it.
Just because E. Fuller Torrey wears pants, doesn’t mean that we’re going to walk around naked.
Oldhead, my friend … I KNEW what would happen at the time. I was just too crazy to ACT on what I KNEW. You know, for a supposedly crazy person, you’re not terribly empathetic.
I was throwing the contents of my apartment out the window. I turned over my fridge, threw my photographs, screamed, burned food, got drunk, embarrassed myself on the internet, wasted police resources, scared the shit out of my parents, destroyed my marriage, alienated my friends. I KNEW that I would be evicted yet I was truly powerless to stop. Psychotic manic happens. Get over it right now or you’re off my team. I say this with the greatest of respect for your point of view.
May I offer the following, in the spirit of solidarity: Szasz was an idealist. He was a libertarian. He was an academic. He was famous. He was smart. He was revered. And he was an ASSHOLE.
Please check in with Hassman later on today. I think you’ll be pleased. Best wishes.
I fear that part of the reason was the Japanese killer attacked the disabled but that’s probably just me being cynical again.
Hey, I know you guys don’t like Hassman. Fine. But watch his blog tomorrow, ‘kay? I’m taking one for the team.
Not sure how such a thing could be approached but it’s a fascinating prospect. Maybe a sociologist could look at gender, income strata, race, etc.?
Yeah, and God forbid a lowly psych patient ever tries to educate a shrink. Been there.
That was “methinks,” obviously.
Thanks for your support. I’ve been shamed elsewhere for supporting the judicious use of the vast array of drugs we have available. Too much moralizing going on in some quarters, methings (not at all a reference to you as I love your contributions.)
Hey, Steve, don’t knock alcohol. It works. Tip to the manic: if you’re going to overdo it, stay home. I drink. I talk to people. I no longer try to do both at the same time. Ditto drunken blogging. Cheers.
Don’t knock the placebo response. It works even when you tell people they’re receiving placebos. It’s an extraordinarily complex phenomenon.
You’ve got some good points in there but, truthfully, “divide and conquer” is exactly what is happening right now within our movement so think on this for a bit: “Just because E. Fuller Torrey wears pants, doesn’t mean that I’m going to walk around naked!”
Okay, I will (with trepidation). I must say that at first blush “Trump supporter” and “psych rights advocate” aren’t two descriptors that seem to go together. I don’t follow American politics anymore but it seems to me that Trump’s people would likely be NRA types and the gun lobby and the psych rights movement are at loggerheads, no?
On a completely note, could I ask you something? I’m writing a book about the psych rights movement and I’d like to use the title “Set My People Free.” Is that offensive? I realize it’s a line from a spiritual but on the other hand Jim Gottstein at PsychRights often draws parallels between the two struggles. What do you think? I could really use your input.
Thanks again for your piece. You write very, very well.
Hey, never underestimate the power of a sense of humour.
Did you get the sense that the psychiatrist you were chatting with had her interest piqued and was going to go investigate any of this? Or was it more a polite nod and “Huh, how interesting”?
And I hate NAMI as much as the next activist but I think them receiving Big Pharma money is not the issue to focus on. It’s their abhorrent policies that really need attacking.
I don’t understand your comment. How is empowering patients to assess/manage their health care “doing evil”? It’s a fantastic service the author is providing and I’d love to hear more.
Ditto this. I loved this essay and I think health coaching has a big future.
I got miraculously good results from one SSRI but I was only one it for a month or so. In my view, they’re best used as a chemical crutch to get you feeling good enough to do the things that will keep you well. Once you’re feeling better, I think it’s best to get by without them if at all possible. If I ever suffer from severe depression again, I’ll certainly have no hesitation about taking the SSRI again for a while.
Thank you for your powerfully written essay. I am shocked by its contents. Is there a way for me to find out the name of the mental health activist you discuss? I would really like to look into this.
One last thought. You mentioned sedation. Yes, it is sometimes required. Sometimes lots and lots and lots of it is required. Trust me. Open up Riverview again, offer three square meals and as many snooze berries as you want and the place will be packed before you know it. Fuck, I’d live there!
I largely agree with you. To be frank, our collective inability to address the tough issues head on is why the anti-psychiatry movement is a laughingstock. Our wonderful website here at Mad in America with all our wonderful contributors is almost never cited. It is not taken seriously. We are not taken seriously. We are not getting anywhere. Nobody has ever heard of us. Mention Robert Whitaker, Bonnie Burstow, Irit Shimrat, Laura Delano and so, so, so many others and people will just stare at you.
Joel Hassman is a smart, albeit abrasive, psychiatrist who tried this same tough talk here and got first ridiculed and then banned. He wrote about the experience on his own website. I now expect that I will be banned. I am feeling upset and think I’ll pack it in for the night. Thanks for the discussion. I enjoyed it.
It was a hell hole. I was imprisoned there in 1988 and briefly in 2009. Now it’s been closed. The ex-patients were dumped into the street, without support, without medication, without funds. Most of them ended up here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Eastside This is a worse hell hole. It is a drug-infested slum of single room occupancy hotels. People literally die on the streets.
The sad fact is that there are hapless people among us who, for one reason or another, cannot take care of themselves and simply must not be abandoned. It is our duty to house them, to feed them and to provide them with the best quality of life that we can.
RR, why do we need an alternative to hospital? I’m envisioning an asylum, in the true sense of the word. An oasis. Safety. Compassion. Respect.
RR, I’m mystified. We seem to be talking at cross purposes. Rest assured you have not touched a nerve. Yes, I know – we’re talking about the sickest of the sickest. And for them, too, I think hospitals are a fantastic option.
And your “job creation” does nothing to help the street person without access to a shower, clean clothes, decent food, printer for his resume, bank account, home address, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.
I agree that treatment is often damaging (for various reasons, not all of them physical) and that such damage can lead to poverty. However, I think it’s important to note that mental illness ALL BY ITSELF very often leads to poverty. I have some ideas where the money should go but I consider myself a disgruntled psychiatric survivor, not a policy maker.
It is my belief that many, many troubled people would be happier in hospital, provided that they were free to leave at any time.
Assuming we are talking about street people, I disagree with you that psychiatric treatment need be forced.
I’m not exactly sure we’re talking about the same group of people. I myself have been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder from time to time but I doubt very much if you saw me walking down the street you’d think “complex and truculent.”
To be blunt, are we referring to the freaks and ghouls I see in the waiting room of my “assisted” outpatient treatment community clinic? If so, could we just refer to them as “street people”? Would that offend anybody?
To reiterate, I support expanded (and almost entirely voluntary) in-patient care.
RR, I thought I offered my alternative but I’m not getting the sense that you saw it.
Yes, I’ve considered that too. In a sense, the insanity defence will always exist, regardless of what is enshrined in law. My example is the man who comes home to find his wife in bed with another man and shoots both his wife and her lover. The killer’s understandably jealous rage isn’t a ticket to walk but certainly impacts sentencing.
But, back to my sad case … what do you think should have happened?
With respect to your “reserved judgement,” may I offer more context so that I could get your input on the insanity defence issue?
In response to oldhead’s 10:45 post, I acknowledge your point and, yes, I am the same poster.
Starting a new sub thread because I can’t figure out the reply button function.
I assume you’re curious about the “rare & extraordinary”?
Thanks. I’m not familiar with this particular incident. I am very, very conflicted on the insanity defence issue. I speak as someone with a criminal record which I believe is unjustified on the basis of my state of mind at the time. By way of example, do you really think that calling 9-1-1 repeatedly to report that wild pigs are roaming ought to warrant a conviction of criminal harrassment? Ought throwing a lukewarm cup of coffee at a psych nurse warrant a conviction of simple assault? I don’t but our legal system did. Make of that what you will. Don’t want want to fight with you, oldhead. I like your style.
I think we cross-posted. Please read my comment above.
I like your sensible thoughts and no, social control isn’t always a bad thing. With respect to the rest of your post, and at the risk of being severely flamed, I offer my suggestions:
1. abolish coerced community care
2. vastly increase the number of in-patient beds
3. reserve involuntary treatment for rare & extraordinary circumstances (will expand on this later, if you wish)
4. watch the hospitals fill up naturally
Would you please tell me the significance of 1961?
Medications aren’t designed to keep people “safe.” Their role is to keep clients fat and obedient. This has nothing to do with health care and everything to do with social control.
“Speed,” as in the street drug or are you referring to ADHD treatment?
With respect, addiction by itself is not considered to be a mental illness. If it were, then an alcoholic with no other diagnosis could receive state funding, sit at home, watch Netflix and drink himself to death.
I hear your points but you haven’t addressed her question. What SHOULD be done?
Nobody is against helping the poor. The issue, as always, is how best to help them. Community mental health care has been an unmitigated disaster.
Hi, Mark. I’m in the same boat. How long should I be prepared to pretend to ingest this crap?
Yeah, I think it’s generally true that anybody who has received involuntary mental health treatment doesn’t get to own a gun. I have some thoughts on this but I’ll keep them to myself.
I believe the idea is that there are better alternatives than forced treatment. I don’t know of anyone who recommends letting people suffer.
I disagree with a few of his positions but I do find his work powerfully compelling and extremely approachable (big issue for me, as I’m a proud non-academic). Actually, I have a book of Szasz essays on a multitude of subjects. I think it’s called “Coercion as Cure.” Totally recommend.
(About the rhetorical point, I mean.)
Gotcha, oldhead. I’m tired.
There’s also a disturbingly large percentage of people who are “voluntary,” being fat and obedient (just the way they like us) for fear of becoming involuntary if they step out of line. I’ve been such a “voluntary” patient in the hospital being advised not to “try to leave.” Szasz said somewhere that so long as forced treatment exists, there can be no such thing as true consent. Good point, I think.
By way of example, I don’t think diabetics are “addicted” to insulin.
Okay. I wouldn’t call that physical addiction but I get your point.
I had assumed Szasz never treated involuntarily. Not true?
Would you mind directing me to a link about the life insurance issue? That’s fascinating.
Do people actually find the APs addictive? As in you crave them? I’m genuinely curious. I know it’s certainly true for the benzos.
This doesn’t seem surprising at all. 2 or even 3 is very, very common in my experience. I’d say it’s true of more than half of discharged patients.
At his blog, he mentions his comment here at MiA taking 36 hours to be posted. I assume that’s what he’s referring to by censorship.
Unfortunately, there is nothing like Soteria House in my part of the world.
I have never seen a realistic proposal from the abolitionists as to how to deal with the acutely mentally ill in crisis. For many of us, the concern is what happens once the person is stable. Forced maintenance treatment is what I abhor; emergency treatment seems a necessary evil.
That’s wonderful.
There is so much conflicting information out there about mental illness and violence.
Completely disagree. There is a profound distinction between the concepts of disorder and illness. Didn’t take much wrestling for me to come to that conclusion. However, I agree that the word symptom was ill advised and will endeavour to use the word indicator in the future.
I think that’s the source of the misunderstanding between us. I consider talk therapy to be quite outside of the medical model even though it’s used to treat mental disorders. The word medical to me means a system rooted in biology and that’s why I can’t discern a difference between the medical model and biological psychiatry. The phrase psychoanalytical medical model doesn’t really make sense to me.
If you mean that what makes an approach medical is conceptualizing the problem as an illness, then I agree with you. That doesn’t address some people’s resistance to my using the word disorder though. Psychologists treat mental disorders; they’re not operating within the medical model.
This is all just my opinion, of course. We may just have to agree to disagree.
I’m not sure what psychoanalytic medical model means. Seems like a contradiction in terms.
Yes, I know all about Abram Hoffer’s beliefs about the causes/cures of schizophrenia and I reject all of them. I don’t recall him talking about blood sugar but he was certainly clear about the role of mega-vitamins. Thomas Szasz called Hoffer a quack and I entirely agree.
Uncomfortable emotional states like anxiety or sadness should be explored and understood, not suppressed.
Mental disorders. Which exist.
Some psychiatrists use drugs to help alleviate symptoms without believing there’s any underlying pathology at play.
You’re saying there are no psychiatrists except biological psychiatrists. Simply untrue.
Well, since Szasz was a psychiatrist, then by your definition (all psychiatry is a manifestation of the medical model), he must have adhered to the medical model.
I really don’t think that’s what the word biological means in this context.
I’m not calling *her* anything. I’m referring to her obvious distress. We need language to communicate.
Szasz often used the phrase “problems in living” where I use the phrase “mental disorder.” There is no contradiction there, just differing terminology.
That’s incorrect, Oldhead. Not all psychiatry is based on the medical model. Szasz himself was a psychiatrist, don’t forget. Whether or not you subscribe to the medical model has to do with how you conceptualize mental disorder and the approach you take with it, not what terminology you use. Mental illness is a metaphor; however, the phenomenon it describes still exists. Szasz was quite clear on this.
Didn’t really answer the question, Frank. Do people suffer from mental disorders?
Oldhead, I don’t need any “wiggle room.” When I say mental disorder, that’s exactly what I mean. I don’t conceptualize mental disorders as illnesses so I don’t use the term mental illness.
Oldhead, I think you’re misunderstanding Szasz.
Frank, your position is that there’s no such thing as a mental disorder?
But psychotherapy is outside the medical model. In your view, is just using the word schizophrenia enough to have you labelled a medical model adherent? Am I a medical model adherent because I use the term mental disorder?
Thanks, Uprising. I don’t think that’s what he meant by medical model, though, because not all psychiatry is the medical model. There are plenty of psychiatrists that, although they there are medical doctors, don’t approach mental disorders from that angle. But I can’t think of a single proponent of the medical model who doesn’t preach biological psychiatry.
But if biological psychiatry is at the extreme end, then what is at the other end of the medical model? As you say, social/environmental/etc. factors are outside the realm of medicine.
Being pathologically afraid of dogs is a disorder but an entirely reasonable one to a victim of a dog bite.
Ah, I think this is the source of our disagreement! You say “are not inappropriate or abnormal responses to stress (as the word “disorder” seems to imply).” You see, I don’t feel that’s implied at all. I see a disorder as possibly arising from just about any cause, sometimes entirely appropriately.
I think we’re misunderstanding Oldhead and I want him/her to come back and set me straight on the medical/biological thing. If there is a difference, I want to know what it is.
A distraught middle-aged woman emptying salt and pepper shakers at a pub for no reason is exhibiting some degree of mental disorder. In the absence of any evidence of “overwhelming conditions of stress, poverty ….,” they can’t be assumed. The fact there exists a continuum doesn’t negate this; it just means that this particular example is on the lower end of the spectrum. I will stick with the term disorder.
Risks don’t outweigh harms? I think the title of this article needs some editing.
I had thought that Thorazine kick started the “pharmacological revolution.”
Thorazine came out in the 50s, didn’t it? That was before Szasz came on the scene.
For my own clarity, would you give me some examples of medical model thinking that do not employ biological psychiatry?
Yes, I understand what orthomolecular psychiatry is; in fact, I talked to Abram Hoffer in the 1980s. But my question is why do some people maintain that mental disorders are strictly in the mind, as opposed to the body, while deciding to alter their bodies rather than their minds. For the record, I agree that mental disorders are just that: mental. Consequently, that’s where I feel we should search for solutions. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that a healthy diet helps make a healthy person.
I disagree. If this stuff worked, Big Pharma would be all over it with salmon oil reuptake inhibitors or some such. I really don’t know why some of us rail against the medical model but then embrace orthomolecular approaches.
AI doesn’t give a s*#$ about mental patients.
Yes, we need to be using our terminology consistently. Your post surprised me in that I’ve always considered the terms medical model and biological psychiatry to be synonymous. To me, the word medical implies biology. I choose the term disorder over disease but obviously some are offended by the word disorder too.
JeffreyC, you plucked the thought from my mind. Benzos, by themselves, require astronomical levels to fatally overdose on.
“Support plus freedom” sounds ideal but in the current absence of adequate support, the choice currently often is between jail and hospital. Right now, that’s not a “non answer” but a very reasonable concern that I have yet to see addressed.
No kidding. The AA mantra is fundamentally disempowering and counterproductive.
I agree with you. I think a lot of the suggested alternatives are simply not practical options for somebody suffering an acute episode.
This is exciting news. I look forward to the outcome.
I think outright abolition would be a disaster that is never going to happen. I wish the movement would concentrate on achievable goals such as raising the legal standard for community treatment orders.
My shrink certainly doesn’t have any awareness he does harm every day. Makes him all the more frightening.
Always enjoy your comments, BPTD. Hope you’re writing your own stuff (articles) somewhere.
Glad your son’s doing better. His example demonstrates the futility of an outright prohibition. If we could concentrate on a more realistic goal (e.g. abolishing community treatment orders), we’d have some chance of success. Otherwise, this is a losing proposition.
I’m really surprised no one else has chimed in here. This is a huge issue which impacts every person with a psychiatric diagnosis. So why aren’t we discussing it?
If you can sell it, then it’s a street drug.
Actually, to be brutally honest, that is not the case for ALL members of the Black Lives Movement.
Sera, with the greatest of respect and indeed admiration, I think you’re misreading the post. If there is terminology that is offensive to minority individuals, by all means, let us know. I was well, well, well into my 40s before I learned that to use the word “gyp” was to slur the Roma. Okay, so I never used the word again. I have another example but it’s for our trans gender friends. You know the one I’m talking about, I think. Rhymes with Granny. We can’t help if we don’t know the issues.
But those two conditions so often occur simultaneously! May I share a little too much information? I’m manic right now. That’s why I stay up all night and type 160 w.p.m. comments all over the internet. I need some downers but none are available. Well, that’s what Christie’s Pub is for! I think I drank, oh, maybe 8 pints of beer yesterday and will likely do the same today. What should I do?
For those of us with ADHD, could you summarize a couple for us?
Are you new here? I don’t recall seeing any other post by you. If so, WELCOME!
I’m only 50.
I concur. Heartily. And I don’t often say that about one of Frank Blankenship’s posts. 🙂
Francesca
Of all the minorities (skin colour, religion, age, disability, gender, etc.), I think it’s fair to say that the mentally ill have the toughest row to hoe. We are, after all, the only minority that has an entire legal structural mechanism separate and quite apart from what everybody else lives under, including our Blacks and trans people.
This is entirely speculation, of course, and I don’t actually want to BE anybody else but life would be easier in some ways if I were Black and gay. Mind you, I say this as a middle-class person so perhaps I don’t know what I’m talking about. Again. Sigh.
Holy Shit, Frank! I completely agree with absolutely every word you said. Have a great day.
Sera, could you please tell me if the Globe is a respectable newspaper? Is it like the New York Times? I’ve never read it. I’m just trying to gauge how much impact the article(s) is/are having. Where is the article being discussed? And should we move our discussion there for now?
I don’t want to argue with you and I’ve been politely nudged out of this thread so I must leave. Here’s my last thought on the subject: I am white, female, middle-class and certifiably insane. I ALWAYS use the term First Nations. I ALWAYS capitalize Black. I ALWAYS refer to trans people exactly how they tell me to. I do every fucking thing that I can to treat the people around me with dignity and respect. In this regard, I am guilty of NOTHING. Sorry if this offends you.
Why would I “admit” something that is false, though?
Can’t read you. Are you being sarcastic? Is this a jibe against Szasz?
Thank you for this. Yeah, I’m not supposed to post in this thread, I know.
My expert opinion is rooted in lived experience. I’ve been dealing with this issue since 2002. Please email me at [email protected]
But why doesn’t “suffering” suffice as a descriptor? What else would you call severe depression or psychotic mania but suffering?
I think you have really nailed it here. For me, the world is too “loud.” I am bombarded with sights, sounds, feelings, colours, memories, dreams …. I have to work hard to keep it dialed down. When I can’t manage, which is usually when I am stressed, then I exhibit mania. It’s not truly mania, though; it’s insomnia. If anybody ever suffers from a manic episode, please contact me at [email protected] I can help. I live on Vancouver Island, British Columbia.
Francesca
What a beautiful post. Thank you. You should write your own article.
Okay, I bow out of the thread. As you were.
Your first sentence is factually incorrect.
Anything that has “as a white person” contained in it indicates I’m not going to like the post. Sorry, Sera. I do admire your work and I want to be your ally. There are no BLACK/WHITE/BLUE/ALL Lives Matter movements that are going to be taken seriously. Where do you read stuff? Like, what news sources do you use? Forget about the Glob for now. Look around, surf the net, you’ll find what you need. I know you can do it and I believe in you, Sera.
Donald Trump is going to be your Fucking President! This is the best thing that’s happened to the USA in my entire 50 years. I’m applying for dual citizenship pronto.
Nonsense. It is people’s insanity that causes them to suffer. Whatever means are available to help a crazy person should be employed. That may require sedation. Just stating the facts. Let me tell you a story about my own struggles with bipolar mania:
Fernwood Inn/Victoria City Police
Penny Farthing Pub
Bon Sushi/Oak Bay Police
Pandora Assertive Community Treatment Team
Vancouver Island Crisis Line
Contact any of these establishments and have them email me at [email protected] I will give them full permission to release their files to any journalist who cares to write about the issue. My vote is for Susan Inman of the Huffington Post or, better yet, of The Walrus (a Canadian magazine).
No need to apologize, Sera. Truly, I was only telling you what you should do. I’m aware that you won’t. The other side ridicules the organic sultanas because it’s not peer-reviewed respectable research. Sorry.
I didn’t read your whole comment but I just wanted to throw out here that the journalist we need on our side is Susan Inman of the Huffington Post. Her book “After Her Brain Broke” is on its way to my house from amazon.ca as we speak.
Double bonus: Ms. Inman is seriously backed by the big players (Torrey, Jaffe, etc.) She also writes for The Tyee. Don’t get mad at me for saying this, please, but Susan Inman is our friend. Be nice to her.
Forget about the Glob.
And did you ever see the movie “Side Effects”? Positively chilling.
Fiachra, are chlorpromazine and Thorazine the same drug? 1st generation antipsychotic?
Very familiar with Seroquel. Last time I was in the bin, I was offered breakfast and I declined, saying offhandedly that I preferred to starve to death. Well, that’ll only get you more drugs, right? The stupid bitch gave me a Seroquel & Ativan combo to stave off my latent anorexia. (Sorry to be so flip but I have just had enough of this bullshit for a lifetime. I’m sure you have, too.) By the way, I weigh 130 pounds, not the least bit underweight.
Sounds like an awful lot of meds. Holy shit! Don’t recognize some of the names. Are you in North America?
Haven’t experienced that kind of withdrawal. Guess my body chemistry is just different from yours.
Was your ECT voluntary? Or was it “voluntary”? Or was it forced? Those are actually 3 different things. Are you aware of Linda Andre’s wonderful book “Doctors of Deception”? I highly recommend it (although it will likely make you angry).
Anyway, I’m so glad you made it through for yourself and also the world so that you can speak the truth. You’re a hero. I truly mean that. Best wishes,
Francesca
Uh huh. And what would the banners say?
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Fiachra, which drug are you talking about?
I know you’ve had a tough time. I’m sorry. Don’t let your rage and despair blind you, though.
Why do people shy away from evidence?
I like your post. I gather it was in response to the post before, which I could make neither heads or tails of. Could you please state the issue succinctly?
If you told me what an ADR is, I could perhaps follow your comments.
Humanity. Capitalism. I think I know the definitions of both words. Help me out here. What is the purpose of this post of yours?
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Frankly, I’m surprised this thread hasn’t seen more action. What are you people afraid of? The truth?
Frank B., let’s get serious. There was a homeless guy outside of Tim Horton’s the other day. He was, quite frankly, fucked up. How would the abolition of mental health legislation actually help this person? I gave him a couple bucks. What did you do?
I consulted Dr. Abram Hoffer in Victoria, BC in 1987(?) or so. He was an orthomolecular psychiatrist and prescribed niacin and a bunch of other shit for “anxiety bordering on schizophrenia.” I don’t know what to make of that. I’m surprised a plain multi-vitamin fucked you up.
Boans, is this in a hospital? Where are the boy’s parents in all this? Is the boy suffering from a mental illness?
You’re not entitled to a stand on Black Lives Matter unless you’re black. Are you black? From your photograph, it wouldn’t appear so. Yes, our struggles have common themes. But come on!
Tranquilizers rock. Take them as required. Sell them if you have too many. Don’t use APs. Use benzos but don’t get addicted.
Nice going, dlj. Keep up the good work.
Where is the trauma in medical care? Serious question.
You are a “survivor” of a middle class family? Hey! Join the club. Do you also hate your job? Does your wife not understand you? Well, guess what?
What is an “evidence-based model”? In real life?
Psychiatry is doing the best it can. If you have a problem with it, then come up with something better.
Excuse me, what is the problem with “safe and effective”?
Oldhead, you can’t file a claim without a cause of action. Well, actually you can … but that’s another story. Tell me exactly what your beef is, please. Who needs to be sued? What did they do wrong? What do you hope to accomplish?
@ Boans
I do not want wish to watch the video. Please tell me what happens there (briefly, please).
Could I please have it explained to me what exactly the Globe did wrong?
Are you suggesting that blacks were free until the whiteys wanted some Risperdal? Help me, I’m stumped.
Could you explain this to me in a way I could understand?
Once again, I agree with RR. We are a movement (I guess) comprising the mad. No doubt, some of us are black. I guess it’s extra awful when you’re black and mad? I don’t know because I’m white. Straight talk, this isn’t helping us. Please reconsider this line of argument.
Sera, in solidarity … it’s all the same thing. Crazy people are getting fucked over.
If the issue is forced treatment, then my “axe to grind” belongs here. If you wish me elsewhere, so be it. Have a nice day.
Well, I guess not because we have to refer to the brilliant and eminent Peter Singer and his “vacuous principle” to make the right choice. Before I get piled on, let me tell you that the quotation is from one Doctor Thomas Szasz.
I must say this philosophical bullshit is getting beyond tedious. Deal with the real issue: Crazy person writhing on the floor and screaming that her hands and feet are on fire. What shall we do? Pull out “The Myth of Mental Illness” and read it to her? Fuck around.
Or you could crank it up a notch and just dialogue with them, Sera.
Szasz said involuntary treatment was a crime against humanity. Okay. Let’s just fucking ignore the suffering. Great. You know what’s a real crime? Not using your God given intelligence to assess and critically analyze an issue. It’s not an education thing. Children can figure this stuff out and that seems to stump a lot of you “activists.” Go to Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside. Picture Szasz strolling amongst the drug addicts and the chronically schizophrenic. You people are being laughed at.
Szasz was a nincompoop academic who sat in his easy chair and pontificated about the lower classes. Give it up, dude.
Do you guys want to be listened to? Then start making sense.
People, can we do a thought experiment? Let’s suppose Francesca takes on BC’s Mental Health Act and wins what she’s fighting for, abolition of community health care. Let’s pretend that’s been done and I’m sitting here typing on my computer, not feeling particularly well but managing to keep it together. HOW IS IT MORE DANGEROUS FOR THERE TO BE A MENTAL HOSPITAL RIGHT DOWN THE STREET WHERE I NEED TO BE RIGHT NOW WHEN THAT IS EXACTLY WHERE I THINK I SHOULD GO YET THEY WON’T TAKE ME BECAUSE THEY DON’T LIKE ME BECAUSE I THREW A CUP OF COFFEE AT SOME STUPID BITCH WHO PROBABLY DESERVED IT AND NOW I HAVE A FUCKING CRIMINAL RECORD AND CAN’T GET OUT OF THE COUNTRY AND I’M HIGHLY SKILLED LEGAL ASSISTANT AND I CAN’T FIND A FUCKING PROPER JOB BECAUSE JONES EMERY FIRED ME WHILE I WAS RECOVERING FROM A SUICIDE ATTEMPT AND I COULDN’T GET TREATMENT WHEN I WAS MANIC AND THE MAN I LOVED MORE THAN THE WHOLE WORLD JUST COULDN’T TAKE IT ANY MORE AND LEFT ME AND THEN I GOT INTO THIS FUCKING RIDICULOUS STRING OF LAWSUITS AND THEY STOLE MY MONEY AND MADE A FOOL OUT OF ME AND JC WORD ASSIST WOULDN’T HIRE ME FOR THE PERFECT JOB BECAUSE I HAVE A FUCKING CRIMINAL RECORD SO I SUED THEM UNDER THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT AND WE SETTLED BUT THAT LEAVES ME WORKING AT ELAN DATA ENTRY FOR $15 AN HOUR AND I CAN ONLY WORK FOUR HOURS A DAY BECAUSE MY STRESS LEVEL IS THROUGH THE ROOF AND ALL I DESPERATELY WANT IS A SHOT OF ACCUPHASE AND THERE IS NOBOBY ON DR. NELSON COLLINS’ TEAM THAT UNDERSTANDS THE ISSUES EXCEPT ALEXIS AND SHE WENT OFF TO SOME BUREAUCRATIC GIG AND BRENDA DIDN’T RETURN A FUCKING URGENT CALL FROM A CLIENT THAT INVOLVED THE VICTORIA CITY POLICE COMING TO THE FERNWOOD INN YESTERDAY AFTERNOON AND THE POLICE LEFT ME THERE BECAUSE I WAS JUST A NORMAL PERSON SO DON’T BITCH TO ME ON THIS SITE ABOUT YOUR PETTY BULLSHIT YOU’RE FUCKING MORONS I HATE I AM SWEARING OFF THE INTERNET AND GOING TO BUY SOME CIGARETTES YES I KNOW I DON’T SMOKE BUT IT’S TOO EARLY TO START DRINKING METHINKS
Note that I’m fine now but I am not receiving telephone calls at this time. Have a great day, everyone.
Excuse me, why exactly is it “crooked” to overcharge for food? Are they not declaring the income as taxable? What the hell is the problem?
Can you give me the lowdown on Seth Farber? Never heard of him.
Oops. Missed the word “friend.”
I just saw the word cannabis and stopped reading. My dear, dear, dear in Vancouver thinks smoking pot is good for her. Well, it’s not. Pot makes you stupid in the long term and sometimes psychotic in the short term. I entirely support legalization but let’s not pretend it’s some benign substance. It ought to be ranked with alcohol.
There is no appropriate civil suit. What is the basis of your claim? That you were naked and screaming and couldn’t look after yourself so the police roughed you up (possibly) and you were taken to an Emergency Room? Boo Hoo!
For fuck’s sakes, if you don’t want involuntary treatment, THEN STAY WELL YOURSELF!
It’s not morality but thanks for your kindness anyway. I have just had it with the anti-psychiatry movement. I’m sorry but I’m going to be a lone wolf from here on. Withdrawal in disgust is not the same as apathy.
Haven’t read the article yet, sorry, but “peer support” means different things to different people. It might be an empathetic friend who struggles with a similar issue. It might be an Assertive Community Treatment Team member who has swallowed the Kool Aid and insists that you do, too. Here’s look you at, Corey, of the PACT team in Victoria, British Columbia!
Community mental health care has been an unmitigated disaster.
Okay, so Big Pharma has shitloads of money and has corruption in the ranks. So what? Some of those medications are life-saving. Why do you think I’m safe and sane right at this moment? That’s right! Because I’m on meds (until they wear off, at which time I’ll be at work). Work is therapeutic and positive. That’s why I’ve been there since 1998.
They’re ALL crooked sellouts. That’s what politics is. You’re raging and raging because the sky is blue. Grow up.
IT DOES NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ignorance of the issues and an inability to critically examine them threatens your rights. Christ, I need a break from this site. Have a good day, everyone. Stay safe. If you get into a “situation,” just go limp. Drop to the ground. I guarantee you if you are in Canada and white, you won’t get shot (by a police officer, anyways).
Nobody cares if you take medication. They care that you stay well and don’t bother other citizens. That’s not a lot to ask. Find whatever route works for you. Organic sultanas (tip of the hat to RR for that one), yoga, vigorous physical exercise, massive doses of Risperdal, WHO GIVES A SHIT? Just stay safe, people!
Yet, I’m afraid to go outside now because I’m all wired with too much caffeine and email correspondence. I owe my employer four hours of work today. I emailed my supervisor to confirm that I would be in AT SOME POINT before 1:00 this afternoon. Fine. It’s now 7:07 a.m. Maybe I could get a little more sleep, listen to a little music, make myself a protein-filled breakfast.
You guys have your hearts in the right place but you’re going about this all wrong. I’ve been dealing with this since 2002. Here’s what I know:
– if you don’t act crazy, the police won’t beat you
– they beat you because they are afraid of you
– mentally ill people can be violent. That’s just a fact. I’m a middle-aged, well-behaved 50 year white female living in Oak Bay. I have a criminal record that includes ASSAULT. Because the hospital wouldn’t take me in when I and everybody around me knew that I desperately needed medical treatment.
– I didn’t get help until I got into the criminal justice system. Don’t let that happen to you. Be proactive and set up a plan
Fuck, you guys piss me off sometimes. It’s nothing personal. It’s just your impotent rage at those nasty psychiatrists and those evil police officers isn’t going to get you any traction. Crank it up a notch. We’re at the start of a revolution.
What the fuck is a crazy person supposed to do? I’ve made my decision. You’ll have to read about on Hassman’s blog. Best wishes.
Good for you for finding what works for you. Here’s my treatment plan:
Nozinan p.r.n.
Risperdal p.r.n.
Reduced work week to 20 hours
Advanced Directive in place with doctor and parents.
The irony of it is that I BEG for treatment but am denied. I was at the Fernwood Inn in Victoria, BC yesterday afternoon and I was in TERRIBLE shape. I told the bartender and the waitress and they were very cool with it, just making sure I had what I needed (which happened to be lots of water, a pen and paper, a single cigarette, a ride to Oak Bay Avenue).
Phone calls were made to: Victoria City Police Department, the Pandora Assertive Community Treatment, and also to my employer. So guess what happened????
Sounds good to me. If there’s nothing wrong with you, then why the fuck are you receiving disability benefits? I receive $900 a month from the Canada Pension Plan. I would much prefer to work full-time but that is just not possible with my bipolar disorder. Deal with it.
Just because E. Fuller Torrey wears pants, doesn’t mean that we’re going to walk around naked.
Oldhead, my friend … I KNEW what would happen at the time. I was just too crazy to ACT on what I KNEW. You know, for a supposedly crazy person, you’re not terribly empathetic.
I was throwing the contents of my apartment out the window. I turned over my fridge, threw my photographs, screamed, burned food, got drunk, embarrassed myself on the internet, wasted police resources, scared the shit out of my parents, destroyed my marriage, alienated my friends. I KNEW that I would be evicted yet I was truly powerless to stop. Psychotic manic happens. Get over it right now or you’re off my team. I say this with the greatest of respect for your point of view.
May I offer the following, in the spirit of solidarity: Szasz was an idealist. He was a libertarian. He was an academic. He was famous. He was smart. He was revered. And he was an ASSHOLE.
Please check in with Hassman later on today. I think you’ll be pleased. Best wishes.
I fear that part of the reason was the Japanese killer attacked the disabled but that’s probably just me being cynical again.
Hey, I know you guys don’t like Hassman. Fine. But watch his blog tomorrow, ‘kay? I’m taking one for the team.
Not sure how such a thing could be approached but it’s a fascinating prospect. Maybe a sociologist could look at gender, income strata, race, etc.?
Yeah, and God forbid a lowly psych patient ever tries to educate a shrink. Been there.
That was “methinks,” obviously.
Thanks for your support. I’ve been shamed elsewhere for supporting the judicious use of the vast array of drugs we have available. Too much moralizing going on in some quarters, methings (not at all a reference to you as I love your contributions.)
Hey, Steve, don’t knock alcohol. It works. Tip to the manic: if you’re going to overdo it, stay home. I drink. I talk to people. I no longer try to do both at the same time. Ditto drunken blogging. Cheers.
Don’t knock the placebo response. It works even when you tell people they’re receiving placebos. It’s an extraordinarily complex phenomenon.
You’ve got some good points in there but, truthfully, “divide and conquer” is exactly what is happening right now within our movement so think on this for a bit: “Just because E. Fuller Torrey wears pants, doesn’t mean that I’m going to walk around naked!”
Okay, I will (with trepidation). I must say that at first blush “Trump supporter” and “psych rights advocate” aren’t two descriptors that seem to go together. I don’t follow American politics anymore but it seems to me that Trump’s people would likely be NRA types and the gun lobby and the psych rights movement are at loggerheads, no?
On a completely note, could I ask you something? I’m writing a book about the psych rights movement and I’d like to use the title “Set My People Free.” Is that offensive? I realize it’s a line from a spiritual but on the other hand Jim Gottstein at PsychRights often draws parallels between the two struggles. What do you think? I could really use your input.
Thanks again for your piece. You write very, very well.
Hey, never underestimate the power of a sense of humour.
Did you get the sense that the psychiatrist you were chatting with had her interest piqued and was going to go investigate any of this? Or was it more a polite nod and “Huh, how interesting”?
And I hate NAMI as much as the next activist but I think them receiving Big Pharma money is not the issue to focus on. It’s their abhorrent policies that really need attacking.
I don’t understand your comment. How is empowering patients to assess/manage their health care “doing evil”? It’s a fantastic service the author is providing and I’d love to hear more.
Ditto this. I loved this essay and I think health coaching has a big future.
I got miraculously good results from one SSRI but I was only one it for a month or so. In my view, they’re best used as a chemical crutch to get you feeling good enough to do the things that will keep you well. Once you’re feeling better, I think it’s best to get by without them if at all possible. If I ever suffer from severe depression again, I’ll certainly have no hesitation about taking the SSRI again for a while.
Thank you for your powerfully written essay. I am shocked by its contents. Is there a way for me to find out the name of the mental health activist you discuss? I would really like to look into this.
One last thought. You mentioned sedation. Yes, it is sometimes required. Sometimes lots and lots and lots of it is required. Trust me. Open up Riverview again, offer three square meals and as many snooze berries as you want and the place will be packed before you know it. Fuck, I’d live there!
I largely agree with you. To be frank, our collective inability to address the tough issues head on is why the anti-psychiatry movement is a laughingstock. Our wonderful website here at Mad in America with all our wonderful contributors is almost never cited. It is not taken seriously. We are not taken seriously. We are not getting anywhere. Nobody has ever heard of us. Mention Robert Whitaker, Bonnie Burstow, Irit Shimrat, Laura Delano and so, so, so many others and people will just stare at you.
Joel Hassman is a smart, albeit abrasive, psychiatrist who tried this same tough talk here and got first ridiculed and then banned. He wrote about the experience on his own website. I now expect that I will be banned. I am feeling upset and think I’ll pack it in for the night. Thanks for the discussion. I enjoyed it.
In my part of the world, we used to have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverview_Hospital_(Coquitlam)
It was a hell hole. I was imprisoned there in 1988 and briefly in 2009. Now it’s been closed. The ex-patients were dumped into the street, without support, without medication, without funds. Most of them ended up here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Eastside This is a worse hell hole. It is a drug-infested slum of single room occupancy hotels. People literally die on the streets.
The sad fact is that there are hapless people among us who, for one reason or another, cannot take care of themselves and simply must not be abandoned. It is our duty to house them, to feed them and to provide them with the best quality of life that we can.
RR, why do we need an alternative to hospital? I’m envisioning an asylum, in the true sense of the word. An oasis. Safety. Compassion. Respect.
RR, I’m mystified. We seem to be talking at cross purposes. Rest assured you have not touched a nerve. Yes, I know – we’re talking about the sickest of the sickest. And for them, too, I think hospitals are a fantastic option.
And your “job creation” does nothing to help the street person without access to a shower, clean clothes, decent food, printer for his resume, bank account, home address, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.
I agree that treatment is often damaging (for various reasons, not all of them physical) and that such damage can lead to poverty. However, I think it’s important to note that mental illness ALL BY ITSELF very often leads to poverty. I have some ideas where the money should go but I consider myself a disgruntled psychiatric survivor, not a policy maker.
It is my belief that many, many troubled people would be happier in hospital, provided that they were free to leave at any time.
Assuming we are talking about street people, I disagree with you that psychiatric treatment need be forced.
I’m not exactly sure we’re talking about the same group of people. I myself have been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder from time to time but I doubt very much if you saw me walking down the street you’d think “complex and truculent.”
To be blunt, are we referring to the freaks and ghouls I see in the waiting room of my “assisted” outpatient treatment community clinic? If so, could we just refer to them as “street people”? Would that offend anybody?
To reiterate, I support expanded (and almost entirely voluntary) in-patient care.
RR, I thought I offered my alternative but I’m not getting the sense that you saw it.
Yes, I’ve considered that too. In a sense, the insanity defence will always exist, regardless of what is enshrined in law. My example is the man who comes home to find his wife in bed with another man and shoots both his wife and her lover. The killer’s understandably jealous rage isn’t a ticket to walk but certainly impacts sentencing.
But, back to my sad case … what do you think should have happened?
With respect to your “reserved judgement,” may I offer more context so that I could get your input on the insanity defence issue?
In response to oldhead’s 10:45 post, I acknowledge your point and, yes, I am the same poster.
Starting a new sub thread because I can’t figure out the reply button function.
I assume you’re curious about the “rare & extraordinary”?
Thanks. I’m not familiar with this particular incident. I am very, very conflicted on the insanity defence issue. I speak as someone with a criminal record which I believe is unjustified on the basis of my state of mind at the time. By way of example, do you really think that calling 9-1-1 repeatedly to report that wild pigs are roaming ought to warrant a conviction of criminal harrassment? Ought throwing a lukewarm cup of coffee at a psych nurse warrant a conviction of simple assault? I don’t but our legal system did. Make of that what you will. Don’t want want to fight with you, oldhead. I like your style.
I think we cross-posted. Please read my comment above.
I like your sensible thoughts and no, social control isn’t always a bad thing. With respect to the rest of your post, and at the risk of being severely flamed, I offer my suggestions:
1. abolish coerced community care
2. vastly increase the number of in-patient beds
3. reserve involuntary treatment for rare & extraordinary circumstances (will expand on this later, if you wish)
4. watch the hospitals fill up naturally
Would you please tell me the significance of 1961?
Medications aren’t designed to keep people “safe.” Their role is to keep clients fat and obedient. This has nothing to do with health care and everything to do with social control.
“Speed,” as in the street drug or are you referring to ADHD treatment?
With respect, addiction by itself is not considered to be a mental illness. If it were, then an alcoholic with no other diagnosis could receive state funding, sit at home, watch Netflix and drink himself to death.
I hear your points but you haven’t addressed her question. What SHOULD be done?
Nobody is against helping the poor. The issue, as always, is how best to help them. Community mental health care has been an unmitigated disaster.
Hi, Mark. I’m in the same boat. How long should I be prepared to pretend to ingest this crap?
Yeah, I think it’s generally true that anybody who has received involuntary mental health treatment doesn’t get to own a gun. I have some thoughts on this but I’ll keep them to myself.
I believe the idea is that there are better alternatives than forced treatment. I don’t know of anyone who recommends letting people suffer.
I disagree with a few of his positions but I do find his work powerfully compelling and extremely approachable (big issue for me, as I’m a proud non-academic). Actually, I have a book of Szasz essays on a multitude of subjects. I think it’s called “Coercion as Cure.” Totally recommend.
(About the rhetorical point, I mean.)
Gotcha, oldhead. I’m tired.
There’s also a disturbingly large percentage of people who are “voluntary,” being fat and obedient (just the way they like us) for fear of becoming involuntary if they step out of line. I’ve been such a “voluntary” patient in the hospital being advised not to “try to leave.” Szasz said somewhere that so long as forced treatment exists, there can be no such thing as true consent. Good point, I think.
By way of example, I don’t think diabetics are “addicted” to insulin.
Okay. I wouldn’t call that physical addiction but I get your point.
I had assumed Szasz never treated involuntarily. Not true?
Would you mind directing me to a link about the life insurance issue? That’s fascinating.
Do people actually find the APs addictive? As in you crave them? I’m genuinely curious. I know it’s certainly true for the benzos.
This doesn’t seem surprising at all. 2 or even 3 is very, very common in my experience. I’d say it’s true of more than half of discharged patients.
Came across a reference to this article at: https://cantmedicatelife.com/2016/04/09/living-in-a-personality-disordered-society-part-6-and-last/
I had never heard of such a claim before so I googled and came across this: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=481785
At his blog, he mentions his comment here at MiA taking 36 hours to be posted. I assume that’s what he’s referring to by censorship.
Unfortunately, there is nothing like Soteria House in my part of the world.
I have never seen a realistic proposal from the abolitionists as to how to deal with the acutely mentally ill in crisis. For many of us, the concern is what happens once the person is stable. Forced maintenance treatment is what I abhor; emergency treatment seems a necessary evil.
That’s wonderful.
There is so much conflicting information out there about mental illness and violence.
Completely disagree. There is a profound distinction between the concepts of disorder and illness. Didn’t take much wrestling for me to come to that conclusion. However, I agree that the word symptom was ill advised and will endeavour to use the word indicator in the future.
I think that’s the source of the misunderstanding between us. I consider talk therapy to be quite outside of the medical model even though it’s used to treat mental disorders. The word medical to me means a system rooted in biology and that’s why I can’t discern a difference between the medical model and biological psychiatry. The phrase psychoanalytical medical model doesn’t really make sense to me.
If you mean that what makes an approach medical is conceptualizing the problem as an illness, then I agree with you. That doesn’t address some people’s resistance to my using the word disorder though. Psychologists treat mental disorders; they’re not operating within the medical model.
This is all just my opinion, of course. We may just have to agree to disagree.
I’m not sure what psychoanalytic medical model means. Seems like a contradiction in terms.
Yes, I know all about Abram Hoffer’s beliefs about the causes/cures of schizophrenia and I reject all of them. I don’t recall him talking about blood sugar but he was certainly clear about the role of mega-vitamins. Thomas Szasz called Hoffer a quack and I entirely agree.
Uncomfortable emotional states like anxiety or sadness should be explored and understood, not suppressed.
Mental disorders. Which exist.
Some psychiatrists use drugs to help alleviate symptoms without believing there’s any underlying pathology at play.
You’re saying there are no psychiatrists except biological psychiatrists. Simply untrue.
Well, since Szasz was a psychiatrist, then by your definition (all psychiatry is a manifestation of the medical model), he must have adhered to the medical model.
I really don’t think that’s what the word biological means in this context.
I’m not calling *her* anything. I’m referring to her obvious distress. We need language to communicate.
Szasz often used the phrase “problems in living” where I use the phrase “mental disorder.” There is no contradiction there, just differing terminology.
That’s incorrect, Oldhead. Not all psychiatry is based on the medical model. Szasz himself was a psychiatrist, don’t forget. Whether or not you subscribe to the medical model has to do with how you conceptualize mental disorder and the approach you take with it, not what terminology you use. Mental illness is a metaphor; however, the phenomenon it describes still exists. Szasz was quite clear on this.
Didn’t really answer the question, Frank. Do people suffer from mental disorders?
Oldhead, I don’t need any “wiggle room.” When I say mental disorder, that’s exactly what I mean. I don’t conceptualize mental disorders as illnesses so I don’t use the term mental illness.
Oldhead, I think you’re misunderstanding Szasz.
Frank, your position is that there’s no such thing as a mental disorder?
But psychotherapy is outside the medical model. In your view, is just using the word schizophrenia enough to have you labelled a medical model adherent? Am I a medical model adherent because I use the term mental disorder?
Thanks, Uprising. I don’t think that’s what he meant by medical model, though, because not all psychiatry is the medical model. There are plenty of psychiatrists that, although they there are medical doctors, don’t approach mental disorders from that angle. But I can’t think of a single proponent of the medical model who doesn’t preach biological psychiatry.
But if biological psychiatry is at the extreme end, then what is at the other end of the medical model? As you say, social/environmental/etc. factors are outside the realm of medicine.
Being pathologically afraid of dogs is a disorder but an entirely reasonable one to a victim of a dog bite.
Ah, I think this is the source of our disagreement! You say “are not inappropriate or abnormal responses to stress (as the word “disorder” seems to imply).” You see, I don’t feel that’s implied at all. I see a disorder as possibly arising from just about any cause, sometimes entirely appropriately.
I think we’re misunderstanding Oldhead and I want him/her to come back and set me straight on the medical/biological thing. If there is a difference, I want to know what it is.
A distraught middle-aged woman emptying salt and pepper shakers at a pub for no reason is exhibiting some degree of mental disorder. In the absence of any evidence of “overwhelming conditions of stress, poverty ….,” they can’t be assumed. The fact there exists a continuum doesn’t negate this; it just means that this particular example is on the lower end of the spectrum. I will stick with the term disorder.
Risks don’t outweigh harms? I think the title of this article needs some editing.
I had thought that Thorazine kick started the “pharmacological revolution.”
Thorazine came out in the 50s, didn’t it? That was before Szasz came on the scene.
For my own clarity, would you give me some examples of medical model thinking that do not employ biological psychiatry?
Yes, I understand what orthomolecular psychiatry is; in fact, I talked to Abram Hoffer in the 1980s. But my question is why do some people maintain that mental disorders are strictly in the mind, as opposed to the body, while deciding to alter their bodies rather than their minds. For the record, I agree that mental disorders are just that: mental. Consequently, that’s where I feel we should search for solutions. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that a healthy diet helps make a healthy person.
I disagree. If this stuff worked, Big Pharma would be all over it with salmon oil reuptake inhibitors or some such. I really don’t know why some of us rail against the medical model but then embrace orthomolecular approaches.
AI doesn’t give a s*#$ about mental patients.
Yes, we need to be using our terminology consistently. Your post surprised me in that I’ve always considered the terms medical model and biological psychiatry to be synonymous. To me, the word medical implies biology. I choose the term disorder over disease but obviously some are offended by the word disorder too.
JeffreyC, you plucked the thought from my mind. Benzos, by themselves, require astronomical levels to fatally overdose on.
“Support plus freedom” sounds ideal but in the current absence of adequate support, the choice currently often is between jail and hospital. Right now, that’s not a “non answer” but a very reasonable concern that I have yet to see addressed.
No kidding. The AA mantra is fundamentally disempowering and counterproductive.
I agree with you. I think a lot of the suggested alternatives are simply not practical options for somebody suffering an acute episode.
This is exciting news. I look forward to the outcome.
I think outright abolition would be a disaster that is never going to happen. I wish the movement would concentrate on achievable goals such as raising the legal standard for community treatment orders.
My shrink certainly doesn’t have any awareness he does harm every day. Makes him all the more frightening.
Always enjoy your comments, BPTD. Hope you’re writing your own stuff (articles) somewhere.
Glad your son’s doing better. His example demonstrates the futility of an outright prohibition. If we could concentrate on a more realistic goal (e.g. abolishing community treatment orders), we’d have some chance of success. Otherwise, this is a losing proposition.