I like your comments, Kate! And I will add another thought using my personal experience and perspective. Not only do people within the mental health system need to listen, they also need to share their own stories of being traumatized by the very same system. But they are caught in their extreme interpretation of their ethic about no personal disclosure and the system’s conflict of interest restrictions, and many don’t yet even perceive the trauma in their environment. Like I myself have done mostly during the earlier part of my own recovery from trauma experiences and extreme states (and I am still vulnerable to doing again if I get lax or am caught off guard), mental health system personnel can become defensively aggressive when they intend well but simultaneously feel guilty for their part in a system perpetuating pain much of the time. In my case as a “mental health professional,” it was a double dose. I had my own personal life trauma, and then I eventually worked in a mental health hospital while loathing much of what I saw and had to rub up against. First, in my personal life into adulthood, I totally did not connect my own trauma experiences with some of the extreme states I experienced and the mistakes I couldn’t explain I was making. I was diagnosed with schizophrenia, and that for me needed to be as hidden as I could keep it, and it was how I internally accounted for my troubles. Although I understood and “empathized” with those publicly sharing their trauma stories, I was blind and numb to my own. And no rational discussion, education, or therapy helped. What ultimately helped was folks more personally sharing their stories with me and showing me compassion when I was confused, ashamed, and defeated. They didn’t have to tell me that they empathized; they showed me, and showed me how to do it. I now am thankfully open with my story and have come to understand myself and others with trauma experiences much more meaningfully. Second, I eventually worked in a mental health hospital, but could buffer myself pretty well from its trauma potential by staying on a course guided by the ethics and humane principles I was taught in non-traditional training programs. And, I was truly fortunate to have worked most of my professional career elsewhere with others similarly dedicated,. But the hospital experience at the end evolved into some travesties the system can produce. In that situation, my adherence to principles made me a target of the well-intended “experts” who saw my insistent assertions of humane principles as being obstacles to their medical approach and the fulfillment of what they had learned. As responsible administrators left during this decline, I began to lose my own centering while becoming re-traumatized, and became a vocal opponent unwilling to resign, and up for the fight. I didn’t recognize that I was fighting others similarly system-traumatized. I might have done better at bringing my points to bear had I been aware and could have shown compassion as I firmly maintained my principles. But I was still learning and in the thick of it. I left just before they were to fire me. They learned nothing from my sharpening claims of their incompetence, and I had to learn about what happened inside me via more recovery and the kind sharing of others. So, today I am better prepared to show the kind of compassion your comment (and some others) above shows, and I admire your patient explanation to Bob. I think your tone of compassion will bring greater understanding than even your good explanation. No matter, you are living Recovery Principles, and that is a great model for us all and most likely to be effective. Retaliating in kind never works. IMHO. Thank you.