Showing 34 of 34 comments.
Thank you so much for taking the time to read it Dr. Yesha!
Thank you so much for the kind words. I felt driven to speak about my experience for this exact reason. To help those that experience it make informed decisions.
I am particularly happy that you had a staff that was dialed into your situation and stopped quickly. Also, you should be thanking yourself for being in tuned with your body and knowing something was wrong. I think many patients experience Anosognosia, and are unaware that they are losing cognition during the treatment. This is a frightening prospect.
I hope you make a full and speedy recovery. If you think you have suffered any kind of lasting damage please feel free to reach out through the VTAG facebook group or on here. We have come quite a long way in discovering what has happened to us
Sincere apologies for the late reply!
I was off medications at the time I tried TMS. I had tried at least 7 or 8 different medications before i attempted TMS. I did not yet understand that psychiatric medications have nothing to do with treating mental illnesses, simply just effect the brain as to distract you from your issues.
That is interesting, my Dr had me try wellbutrin after TMS and it made things so much worse but i cant recall an impact on tinnitus. Thank you so much for that information.
I have spoken to quite a few people now, who think they are out of options. Some considering ECT or TMS because nothing else has worked. The really unpleasant truth that we have to ask ourselves is, how bad is our problem? I would gladly trade back my old problems for what i experience now and even those who have had very severe cases and did TMS have ended up even worse which is hard to imagine, and yet we manage to encounter it as a reality. For me and alot of others i think we need to critically examine whats causing our true problems and do everything we can to reduce the issue organically. Then from there, there are alot of alternatives to traditional psychiatric treatments. I would rather abandon everything I own than consider another psychiatric treatment at this point. I know that sounds radical but its just a fact. I think there are alot of options out there besides psychiatry that can be very effective!
Thank you so much for the kind words, i sincerely hope you find quiet, healing and hope ahead as well.
I think its very interesting how incredibly dehumanizing societal pressures have become. I also found my way into psychiatric care because of inhuman professional expectations that lead to a healthy fight or flight stress response that is extreme but proportionate to the amount of stress we are put under. The irony is that then psychiatry dehumanizes us further, when there is nothing left, with treatments when we are at our worst. How more of us are not dead, is really something beyond my understanding and a testament to how durable human nature truly is.
Thank you so much for sharing your story Rose. Your such a badass, I cant believe you managed to get your PhD through all that hell.
I would like to see Neuropsychological evaluations be apart of real independent trials for these meds and psychiatric treatments. We would see there is a serious, severe, and disturbing impact to the brains performance across the board for all of them. If real independent trials were performed in such a way and were used by regulators as criteria for treatment there is no way they would pass to the public, government officials would have to swallow that they are disabling their workforces. The same ones they are trying to accommodate with the treatments in the first place, because thats all they care about, just destroying the personal lives of everyone being treated by psychiatry is not enough.
In my mind the independent objective measure of a persons performance is what shows best what is really happening. The subjective report of patients in trials managed by pharmaceutical companies tells us nothing of any value whatsoever.
I believe Gabapentin is indicated for Neurological pain, seizures, and convulsions. Gabapentin is not indicated as a psych drug, however since it slows neurological activity doctors are using it for that. Peter Gotzsche’s book ‘Deadly Medicines and Organized Crime’ details how rampant the off label use of drugs has become. So while in your case it may be being used correctly… if it is being used as a psych drug it means it has not been tested for such use and has no scientific basis for that type of use, so it is simply doctors experimenting on their patients.
I would like to thank you for writing such a clear cut and poignant article. It crushed, ripped, and destroyed my heart to read it. I am so sorry for the loss of your son and the circumstances he had to endure.
The fact is that I identify with every detail of the story and your son and yourself are not unreasonable in any way or account. His thoughts and feelings about society are exact, clear and correct. About quite some time ago I had a break down from an incredible amount of stress i was receiving from poor leadership at work, and the response to the mortgage bubble popping here in the us and how the company was handling it. The fact is that it was a perfectly normal reaction to terrible and cruel treatment. After meeting with my doctor he took me out of work as an attempt to help me, however it was the insurance company that was funding my leave that made the next move. They called me and told me i could only be on a paid leave if I was a psychiatrist and furthermore, my leave could not be more than 30 days if i was not on a psych med. At the time i complied even though I knew it was an in human thing to ask. So began my own story of trying to get better while trusting doctors that were only insisting i take neurotoxins to get better, all the while they knew i would not get better but would deteriorate until i needed another prescription. Your son and myself were forced into a broken corrupted system just for simply wanting to survive in a community that we were raised in. I have talked to many, many people and have not heard of a single one who was made better by psychiatry, I believed the lie that there was at least someone being helped for many many years, at this point i have no evidence of it, and an overwhelming amount showing otherwise.
I think people are turning their backs on us because what they see is unpleasant and they would have to acknowledge that your son was a perfectly normal person whos life was ended by a rational reaction to a system our communities have chosen to create. Think about that for a second, we have created an institution that furthers human death just by existing. There is much we can do to change our mistakes. This article in the motivation and the truth that is needed to do so. Thank you so much for deciding to share it.
Furthermore, your son sounds like a truly terrific human being who did nothing but try and live up to the expectations of his tribe and believe in himself and his people. I miss him and I did not even meet him. I hope you find peace even though our psychiatric system seems to deter it.
Thank you so much for sharing your story Linda. My mum had the same zapping from Paxil and has recently used Gabapentin for various reasons, so this article is a real and direct help, for so many more reasons than just that though.
The effects of memory loss and cognitive impairment are so subtle… we blame things… we dissociate from it and blow it off. By the very nature of experiencing it we disregard or forget its symptoms and impacts. If there is one thing that is the most under reported, acknowledged and identified in terms of side effects, i would say that is it although it can be a lot easier to deal with in some cases than other side effects. I would venture to guess as a culture we would be much more productive and even good willed if impacts to cognition were taken more seriously and measured in a stricter manner.
Most doctors are self important dirtbags as well, unopen to learning and accepting that inevitably the ideas of others will be much better than their own. So they value their own thoughts and opinions above all others, let alone the patients that know themselves far greater than a doctor could ever hope to.
I hope you feel better and find peace, best wishes.
Thank you so much for your kind words and the story Annette.
I am sorry about the ECT(scary) and your sons story and memory loss, before my experience I did not fully understand how the loss of my memory would effect every aspect of my life and create frustration and irritability. I am developing coping skills but everything is different. I have to change my personality and the way i handle things to get along. That doesn’t have to be a bad thing.
I can identify with the cessation of certain things to help get over the barriers. I recently stopped all the junk food i used to enjoy. It was so much harder than i thought but it has helped with good feelings and energy, which helps other cognitive deficits. hahahah, for a moment i did not understand the Whoo Whoo comment, but i thought back to my psych med experiences and it became very clear to me what you were speaking of. I had the same reaction, i tried quite a few and they all made me dopey, very punishing. I am using therapy, healthy eating and exercise to try and beat whats left of my own unpleasantness. I hope to find the peace your wishing me! Thank you so much.
Sorry to hear it, I cant say that mine has been any different. I do wish I had learned your lesson before this experience. Accountability is a massive issue here and maybe one of the most importance. No one is verifying the quality of care and fairness of treatment when the bill is paid? Why would we pay for a medication that doesn’t work? Why would we pay a Dr. that doesn’t help? I think the answers can very widely but it comes back to where and how we are spending our resources. Why would we spend time and effort on things that don’t work, hurt people and makes peoples lives harder? My thought here may be because we are afraid to address the mental health problem as one being generated by economic demands and lack of community. Pay Dr.s regardless of efficacy to treat diseases generated by social imbalances because we are too afraid to address them, or too afraid to question those in power, monetarily or otherwise on why we are driven past reason to comply with societal norms, ie working 9-5 or much longer in many cases and for massive corporations with no conscious. There are a million and one ways to address the problem without spending a cent and they don’t include perpetuating psychiatry, big pharma or bs studies to promote marketing.
Thank you so much for the helpful advice. It always brings me hope to find some simple things to try and help me out. I am learning the lesson with Lawyers, I cant say I have found anything contrary yet accept just a few, when i have spoken to so many. And, the adds are relentless some places, exploiting vets, MLK, and many others to try and get people in.
Thank you so much for the support.
My pleasure sharing Magdalene,
Your absolutely right, I think there should be much more healthy objection and experience sharing out there.
Additionally, I have seen quite a few studies showing little to no efficacy as well. Maybe not surprisingly, they were also the only studies I could find where there was no bias or payroll from a manufacturer. The large majority of people I have talked to had predominantly, no benefit at all. A handful have benefited and quite a few I have seen hurt. Here is another trial which I was shown recently, not impressive. I certainly do not think it is fair, as in the first article you have posted, that we show the few positives, without the contrasting risks and negative experiences? I would call that no more than salesmanship, either for a product or for your media source. Disturbing to me.
I certainly agree with the abomination bit. I worked in data and analytics for years in business. To think about that in a clinical setting is upsetting. We are people and need individualized treatment and consideration, everyone is a completely different being, most of which is not scientifically mapped. I am seeing this recurring theme of discarding human beings because they don’t fit the mold, the data, or the research. If you cant treat a human individually you should not be practicing anything regarding people. I am seeing a tremendous amount of oversimplification as well. That is an answer for a business model and income not treatment of another person. I have also seen incredibly lax hiring practices. Most hires in these newer clinics aren’t even vetted and contacts are not even called or interviewed. So there is no check and balance or accountability for that community, anyone could come in fill the spot, wreak havoc in the community and leave.
I think you have brought up an important aspect of the problem.
Your right, two years isn’t long enough… I am sure they will subside soon and the four years its been so far for others… Not quite long enough… Feel free to keep the faith in the science that puts people in the ground.
I love the casual nature of my dismissal here. Perfectly fine cognitive processes for my entire life then after TMS I have had diagnosed long term cognitive impairment, not to mention my life is just a shadow of what it was before… I understand the difference between correlation and causation because I mentioned it in another comment before this post was made. Because it is hard to tell the difference between the two does not mean we should dismiss direct causation and or dismiss the suffering of those who are the stepping stones for others. We should most definitely not hide the possible side effects from those who have yet to try it.
I think community is disintegrating everywhere, except places that have not tasted monetary corruption. You make an excellent point, we are lucky if we get to see them for who they are.
Sam, you make an excellent point and something i have struggled to understand… when you cannot point out the new neuropathways or exactly what happened… How can you help a hurt patient? How can you validate the efficacy of the treatment? I talked to an Oxford TMS researcher looking to diagnostically show TMS results and I got nowhere. She could not point me to any tool that could definitively show what TMS does to the brain. We arent there yet.
Interestingly enough, i have found Causality and Correlation are some of the most profoundly confused evidences , such a grey area…
You may be right, the evidence I have seen points to it or at least the likelihood of it. I appreciate your opinion about it. I have learned quite a bit from your commentary. Sucks to be me, but I am really happy for the people who are getting good treatment and benefits. I suppose I wish most that i could have accepted the side effects when i consented to the treatment.
Steve, your so right, my interactions with psychiatry has been so odd, pseudo science at best. It certainly cannot be related back to the scientific method in any way and you cant take the subjectivity out. I am not sure why so many people have to pay such a high price for it.
You don’t have to believe me. Nor do I care about how hard you are trying to refute an experiential article. I do however take issue with you dishonoring the memories of the dead and suffering. The proof is there, it is in my group, it is in the lives of the people I know. It is there for anyone who is interested to observe and study. It has been reported to the FDA, it exists whether you believe it or not.
Your belief in it does not make it true or false. It is true because it was witnessed, not because you fail to believe the witnesses testimony.
Thanks Doc, spot on.
Thank you John, I can agree with your perspective. I battle with it a little internally. The supervision and oversight was there but I am not sure the manufacturer is training folks up correctly. I have seen vastly different SOPs at different clinics and i think efficacy is better where it is taken more seriously but as for the negative side effects, maybe a good clinician would have stopped sooner but I think damage maybe done to a certain population regardless.
Thank you very much for your thoughts, still looking for something or someone to help.
I can’t argue with anything you have said. In fact i have been witness directly or indirectly to the same mechanisms here in the states. In fact I know the process your referring to by law enforcement is called ‘Pencil Fking’ it happens everyday depending on the mood and climate of the organization. Having witnessed it from a young age I made sure I steered clear of the grey areas it occurs in. It has still happened to me in minor sorts. I still deal with the unresolved anger that it generates at times though. As for the rest, humans are interesting creatures, I have witnessed it in the highest detail at the highest level of the american corporation, but it occurs in every place I have ever been at least in small amounts. The wheels get greased. Humans are exceptionally good at it. If crime occurs, if lives are taken, if suffering is engaged in, people look the other way as long as the car keeps moving, they will even go to extreme lengths to ignore the aforementioned unpleasantness as long as the vehicle keeps moving. I was once taught 80, 10, 10 and I have an inclination that it applies to anything human. the Lower 10 percent of people will commit crime or do the wrong thing even if they get caught or incur negative results. 80 percent will do whatever is easy, commit crime, hurt someone else, whatever, as long as it is easy and nothing bad will happen directly to them. The upper 10 percent will do the right thing even if it means they are punished for it. I have heard the same numbers applied to survival scenarios and crime. Maybe its just the human mind? Bad news for the wheels of justice and human treatment. I am glad you are brilliant and speaking up, many of us who are not, are crushed and swept under the rug, names we will never know.
Thanks John, I am so glad your one of the ones that have gotten real help from it. When I went in, I really believed that might be me. I was lucky enough to meet others that have really benefited as well. I really want to find out what the difference is and why the outcomes are so drastic in some cases. The brain is so complex and amazing its hard to think we may find out in this lifetime.
Sam, what can i say, your a classy one, thank you. Id rather have the information and think for myself instead of rely on others to tell me something is safe… I have had plenty of Dr’s and techs talk to me about the reality of the treatments so they can improve and disclose everything to their patients, not dismiss something because they think maybe it wont happen to their patients.
class1 , Are you so sure it is not TMS fault? I will make some concessions here. TMS is relatively low risk, from what i have observed this is occurring in a small population, but that is a population. These side effects have been reported to the FDA and are public. They have been reported to the manufacturers and they have chose not to warn their techs and the public of the side effects reported.
To me it does seem efficacy rates are higher at better clinics, but does that excuse the damage done by a machine operated by others? When they are operating within compliance set down by the manufacturer? When they were trained by representatives of the manufacturer? Everything has a cost, everything, When i take a med that says it could result in death… well if i kick off, it was my responsibility, it was on my own hands. The disclosure provided to me before i did TMS did not tell me anything about having serious cognitive impairments two years after the procedure or any of the significant issues I have. I checked with the others as well, the folks i met with that had detached retinas and nerve pain… No disclosure for them… The woman who ended up on a ventilator with a pacemaker as well… no disclosure… I now have done my homework, I know whats happening, I have called the mother, the next morning, after a suicide attempt from someone i had been trying to help for months deal with the side effects of TMS, who was not suicidal before TMS. I could rattle off for hours.
Its possible you are right that the risk could be low under certain conditions, but it does not excuse the cost of the backs that are walked across to pave the way to a persons success. Especially when it was not disclosed to them and they did not have the chance to make an informed decision, even when the information was available to the manufacturer.
I have also spoken with those who have had massive turn arounds from TMS, defeated life ending depression. Outstanding, if your life is better, awesome! Seriously, however I wasn’t so lucky and I am not sure we should overlook the incredible suffering of others based on the even miraculous success of a few. When people ask me about TMS, it is simple, There is great success out there but the risks are not being disclosed. Here is what is possible, and its something they are not telling you. There was no fail safe on the machines, stopping the harm that was done to me, there was not training given to the techs to identify problems, i have talked to the techs from different clinics. Science does not know much of anything about how the brain works… So they know definitively that TMS does no harm to it? No way, not even close, the brain is an amazing thing, way beyond our own comprehension, we wont know the impacts of TMS on it for millennia. I’ve been to some of the best clinics in the country, in MY experience, the difference between them and a regular neurologist, is that they admit they got no clue on whats going on but they will give it a shot. Pretty subjective, but I will take the honesty any day. Someone who says they know unequivocally what TMS is doing to your brain is.. well I will let anyone reading fill in the blank.
Sorry, I cannot stand down and dishonor my own story or the story of those I have met in order to save the conscience of a few or any other for that matter. Time will tell if I am a wanker or not.
JJ, Please take a look at the FDA reporting as well in the MAUDE datbase for TMS. Then call up the folks hospitalized by physiological side effects from TMS… Then call up the loved ones and family members picking up the pieces from the suicide of their loved ones that occurred as a direct result of their TMS treatment, as stated by themselves and their loved ones and medical professionals. This is a subjective account, not a medical journal. Your right the side effects are not well published, its upsetting I had to dig so deep to find out about what happened to me. Just like the first people experiencing the long term effects of prozac. There was a time when there was nothing documented. TMS has only been widely used for a few years.
They do, I told some docs that were trying to help me, as well as my therapist and they said that same company had come by their office to try and market to them. One doc had the flyer sitting at his receptionists desk as it had just been delivered. He had also had patients actively asking him about the treatment and because of the way they advertise it he had been considering advocating it. He told me there was no way in hell he would do that after having met and treated me. It would be silly to think the same thing is not happening across the whole country.
Sam – Your no conspiracy theorist. I have seen the abuse of medication, both psychiatric and otherwise over and over again. Our culture in the US, is just take something for it and so doctors just hand out scripts for everything… which generates massive malpractice. How is that ok? How can the human body take care of itself if we take something every time we have a problem? That is just intoxication. Science has taken over for wisdom and common sense. My problem comes from the same mentality. Just fix it, without serious contemplation of the outcome. Monetizing medicine doesn’t really seem like a good idea to me either… You mean a doctor makes more money by pushing more meds and seeing more patients? So there is no monetary incentive for him to heal his patients and keep them healthy? Only to keep them coming back? We are strictly relying on doctors to be exceptionally ethical… how many doctors are in the US and around the world? I am not sure we are gonna make that arbitrary line in the sand there.
I am glad you were vigilant for your sons sake. My son had Croup for awhile and he got better, it was scary as hell but I knew I couldn’t just give him anything without remaining skeptical. I feel bad for the folks that don’t know any better and rely on their docs.
JefferyC, Thank you for calling that out. To stop taking the pill is most often not enough to get back to normal. I realized the subtly of my mistake after my second draft and choose to leave it in as an attempt to illustrate just the short term experience I had, meaning in an equivalent amount of time electively taking a script vs doing TMS.
My experience has been bad enough but in all reality I could not compare it to being detained and drugged or simply drugged as a child. We are supposed to be advanced but most days I just see us going backwards. I am glad you have some sort of community to cope in your parents.
I still remember the icy feeling I had when they told me that. It felt perfectly rehearsed.
You are right, and thank you for the advice as well. It is a massive challenge looking for legal help. Talk about another huge farce in our modern culture. I have been searching for an absorbent amount of time just to get help with a simple problem. The current system is intended to dissuade people from justice and equality. I have been charged for ‘advice’ that I was able to readily get else where for free. I so frequently get people who are quick to empathize with me and acknowledge the massive problem but dozens and dozens(all of them) of them have all refused to address it. Even worse is going to a big firm that has the means to help and you watch them Cherry pick and turn you down because your case is not simple enough, meaning they don’t have the stones to be the first one to litigate and they have plenty of other clients who have simple cases with easy money. I had no idea the lack of integrity out there until it was staring me in the face. To be fair I have met some that have offered me really helpful advice for free and continue to but it still hasn’t gotten us where we need to be.
Madmom, lol, I love the name. Thank you so much for the comment and advice with the tinnitus. I run the fan at night as well to get some relief. I had not tried finding other tunes to match but that is an excellent idea I will try.
I know MiA has had write ups on how incredibly negligent it is for GP’s to be involved in psychiatry. I have several family members permanently injured from taking life long psych meds from GP’s. I had a really interesting run in lately though. I found a GP who almost exclusively prescribes supplements instead of pharmaceuticals and he claims a better success rate in dealing with anxiety and depression. After seeing how much damage pharmaceuticals do early in his career he refused to prescribe them. He told me, his son went to medical school and has been indoctrinated to think his dad is now a heretic for the practice. Mad times we live in, just mad.
You are right about the corporate strategy model as well. I have witnessed the greed and disregard for the human impact in another type of business but i know it when i see it. Thats exactly what is happening with TMS, there is a mass marketing campaign that is beating the science behind it being exposed as shoddy at best. I have read other articles about the same thing happening with all these pop up clinics to treat the rampant depression we are experiencing(I would say that it is because of our departure from true community but there are a million reasons) with different injections like Ketamine and what not, there are massive horror stories. Why as a country would we let this happen? Nobody wants to focus on the downsides, just the hope of recovery, but at what real cost? How about we slow down and focus on doing no harm, like was originally intended.
I am seriously and actively looking for legal help. It is very difficult as I cannot find anyone who has yet litigated this kind of case and other firms doing alot of good like DK Law with ECT are over commited elsewhere.
Thank you for the kind words Caroline, and thank you for being an active part of this community of support and speaking out. It is really outstanding. It doesn’t seem right that the vast majority of us are focused on self gratification when watching and participating in media and other aspects of life while we cant even properly inform ourselves and other members of our community about life changing side effects of serious medical decisions. I admittedly was one of them although I did make my best effort to be informed on the decisions i made. It just baffles me how far removed the vast majority of us are from the realities all around us.