The Moral World of Personality Disorder Assessment

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When asked about her behavior during a psychiatric assessment for personality disorders, one patient’s response included this description:

”It was completely crazy. I’m not quite that bad anymore.”

In the medical psychiatry, psychiatric diagnoses are often presented as neutral objects. Professionals assess and diagnose the disorder situated in a patient’s mind so that interventions can be targeted to alleviate the disorder. Professionals are expected to be neutral and understanding in the face of a patient’s struggles. When assessing patients through interviews and questionnaires, the professionals orient simply to gather information to evaluate whether the diagnostic criteria are being met.

But why would a patient then answer the question as quoted above when interviewed about her behavior in a personality disorder assessment? She calls her behavior ”crazy” and reassures that she is not ”that bad” anymore. These terms imply that she sees her past behavior not only as a medical issue, but as something wrong in a moral sense.

The neutral approach of the psychiatric assessment obscures the fact that psychiatric diagnoses are intertwined with the moral norms of our society. They are connected to our understanding of what is considered normal, what kinds of feelings and behaviors are desired, and so on. This is particularly pronounced in the case of personality disorders, which are seen as reflecting a person’s core traits. In this sense, they are treated differently from mood disorders, which can be considered as transient states that do not define a person’s character.

Professional psychotherapist and patient in office, focus on hands with clipboard

The Moral Underpinnings of Psychiatric Assessment

Personality disorders are defined by long-standing, inflexible, and pervasive personality traits that cause impairment and suffering. From a medical standpoint, this justifies to treat them as psychiatric disorders. However, it is interesting that the evaluation of personality disorders depends so much on the questioning of behaviors that violate social norms. In this way, the moral aspect is already coded into the assessment procedure.

The SCID-II (Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV Axis II Personality Disorders) is a commonly used assessment tool. The semi-structured interview begins with general open-ended questions, followed by a series of scripted polar questions. Patients are asked questions, such as “Have you often volunteered to do things that are unpleasant?” and “Do you flirt a lot?”. But what exactly qualifies as often volunteering for unpleasant tasks? How much flirting is a lot?

The assessment involves an evaluation of the line between the normal and abnormal behavior, with the idea that there exists the healthy or correct amount of such behavior. It does not take much to realize that these conceptions are very much shaped by the cultural understandings of the desired social behavior; they cannot be defined solely by some medical facts. Patients frame their answers and professionals interpret these responses based on their own moral and social understandings. There are no psychiatric assessment methods that are free from interpretation.

The Need for More Research on Psychiatric Interactions

What psychiatry needs more of is research on face-to-face interactions between professionals and patients to show how diagnoses are made on a practical level. How do the participants negotiate understandings of pathology?

In my article “‘It Was Really Sick:’ Managing Moral Evaluations during Personality Disorder Interviews,” published in Symbolic Interaction, I explored the role of morality in personality disorder assessment interviews in two Finnish psychiatric outpatient clinics. The data come from 12 patients who were interviewed by nurses using the SCID-II procedure. The article is part of my doctoral dissertation. The dissertation is mainly based on the conversation analysis method, which examines interaction turn-by-turn in great detail. Conversation analysis highlights not only what is said but how it is said — and how meanings are constructed collaboratively.

I also applied a theory of frame analysis by the famous sociologist Erving Goffman. It examines how people orient themselves to and interpret situations. A frame helps answer the question “What is going here?” In most situations, several things are happening simultaneously. For example, in a medical setting, patients usually interpret intimate questions as part of a medical assessment rather than an intrusion, because they are applying the frame of a medical encounter. However, if a question seems inappropriate, the patient may add another frame to the situation: that of a harassment. Similarly, in psychiatric interviews, patients may switch between frames to which they orient themselves, orienting themselves to a neutral clinical information gathering in one moment and to a moral judgment of their behavior or character in another.

Morality in interviews is a broad and ambiguous topic. I used frame analysis because it offers a solution for structuring the topic; it helps to distinguish moral orientation from other possible orientations. In this way, my work makes visible the often overlooked moral underpinnings of psychiatric assessment. Understanding these hidden dynamics can facilitate reflection on psychiatric institutions — and increase the awareness of the social and cultural factors embedded in mental health assessment.

Three Overlapping Frames

There has not been much research on how moral issues arise in psychiatric assessment and treatment. However, there are some exceptions. Sociologist Jörg Bergmann argues that instead of dismissing the issue, mental health professionals should actively reflect on and acknowledge the presence of moral aspects in their work. Doing so, he suggests, would greatly enhance their professionalism.

In my work, I have found that moral aspects are intertwined with the assessment process. At various points, either the patient, the nurse, or both oriented themselves to and made explicit the moral world underlying the SCID-II interview. This led me to identify the moral frame as one of the frames present during the assessment interviews.

Two other frames were the information-gathering frame and the everyday interaction frame. The information-gathering frame is the foundational structure of psychiatric assessment. It refers to the task that the participants are expected to perform: to gather the necessary information to evaluate a patient’s symptoms. This frame thus works as the guiding principle for the participants to interpret the situation.

The everyday interaction frame means orientation to the rules of non-institutional social contact. In addition to their roles as nurse and patient, the participants are also two people navigating the social situation using their lifelong experience of interpreting social interactions. This frame focuses on maintaining each other’s faces and ensuring a pleasant flow of interaction. These three frames are not mutually exclusive; rather, they often overlap, with one frame becoming more dominant depending on the context.

Moral Orientation in Practice

So what does this moral orientation mean in practice? I focused on sequences with clear moral connotations. My final data set consisted of 13 cases from ten different patients and four different nurses. Each case began with a nurse’s question and included the subsequent sequence in which a moral stance was expressed. The exchange included some form of evaluation of whether a behavior conformed to moral norms. The moral stances varied: in some cases, a moral stance meant that the patient admitted to having violated a moral norm, while in other cases, the patient defied the norm. The moral stances could originate from either the patient or the nurse.

In one instance, the nurse was interviewing a patient about paranoid personality disorder. The patient had previously indicated on a questionnaire that she “often suspected that her spouse or partner has been unfaithful.” The nurse pursued clarification to determine whether the suspicion was unfounded and thus indicative of paranoid tendencies. The patient admitted that her suspicions were not based on her partner’s actual behavior. The participants continued to process the issue. The following excerpt illustrates this discussion:

(The excerpts are streamlined for ease of reading and thus do not include the transcription symbols used in conversation analysis. The numbers in brackets indicate pauses in seconds.)

Nurse: “What kind of suspicions have you then had?”
(1.0)
Patient: “Well (0.2) totally crazy. So well, that first relationship was by far the worst that then I browsed through the other person’s phones and emails and everything and like it was really sick […]”

In such cases, the patient does not merely report their behavior but continues with a strong self-judgment. The patient labels her suspicions as “totally crazy” and “really sick”. With these kinds of extreme case formulations, it is evident that the patient is treating the issue as emotionally and morally charged.

Another type of option is when a patient attempts to prevent the negative implications of their response. In one example, the nurse seeks elaboration on the patient’s affirmative response to the questionnaire question “Is it insignificant to You what other people think of You?” This question belongs to the category of schizoid personality disorder.

Nurse: “Then you have marked that is it insignificant to you what other people think of you. You have marked that yes.
(0.8)
Patient: “Myeah.”
(1.2.)
Nurse: “But so like.”
(2.0)
Patient: “Not of course every – I do have that kind of boundaries. I not, I do know how to behave well or like I do attempt to behave well.”

In this excerpt, the nurse cites the affirmative questionnaire response. The patient first offers a minimal acknowledgment, followed by a pause indicating that she will not continue. The nurse’s incomplete turn (“but so like”) suggests that she sees the response as requiring further clarification. After a two-second pause, the patient denies the possible negative reading of her response — that she lacks boundaries and behaves in a socially unacceptable manner. In this way, the nurse’s turn, beginning with a contrastive “but”, signals to the patient that there may be something problematic in her answer: that, in this context, not caring about others’ opinions is not necessarily a desired quality.

After this excerpt, the patient goes on to present another interpretation of her answer: due to her appropriate behavior, she does not need to worry about what other people think of her. This explanation aligns with general social norms — one should not be neurotic about other people’s opinions, but still take others into consideration.

Nurses’ Participation in the Moral Frame

Each sequence begins with the information-gathering frame, in which the nurse poses a SCID-II interview question in a neutral manner. However, as previously noted, the SCID-II questions themselves carry implicit moral undertones. In these data, it is mostly the patients who make these moral aspects explicit. I have paid particular attention to how the nurses respond when this happens.

I have identified three ways in which nurses participate in the moral frame: supporting the patient, maintaining neutrality, or challenging the patient.

1. Supportive responses

In some cases, after the patient’s self-evaluative turn, the nurse adopts a supportive stance, helping the patient to present themselves in a positive light. This approach aligns with the everyday interaction frame, as it is consistent with the norms of friendly communication.

2. Neutral responses

In the second set of cases, the nurse remains rather neutral, acknowledging the gist of the patient’s turn without taking a clear stance. This is a neutral position. It is consistent with the information-gathering frame, where the primary goal is to gather diagnostic information rather than to engage in moral evaluation.

3. Challenging responses

In this third type of response, the nurse challenges the patient in some way. This is the most complex option in terms of frames. While challenging seems to happen in the service of information-gathering, I argue that in practice, it also falls within the realm of the moral frame. This is because the nurse focuses on something in the patient’s behavior that deviates from moral norms and holds the patient accountable for that behavior.

An example of this is a case in which the patient had affirmed the question, “When you are asked to do something that you don’t want to, do you say ‘yes’ but then you work slowly or badly?”. This question belongs to the category of passive-aggressive PD (no longer an official diagnosis). After some exchange, the following discussion takes place:

Nurse: ”Yeah but how do you take an attitude like usually like to these kinds of professional and social actions? That do you feel that you can just drop out from important tasks (1.0) if you don’t feel like it or do you think that everyone must take responsibility here?”
Patient: ”I do think that everyone must take responsibility and just like […]”

In this excerpt, the nurse explores the patient’s underlying motives. She offers two choises: a) that the patient’s attitude toward responsibilities is to ”just drop out from important tasks if you don’t feel like it” or b) that everyone must take responsibility. This type of question formulation clearly enters the realm of moral framing.

The verb “drop out” sounds irresponsible and antagonistic. The definition “important tasks” shows that the question is about something that should be taken seriously. The phrase “if you don’t feel like it” clearly disapproves of the wrong attitude. As for the alternative, “Do you think that everyone must take responsibility”, conveys a solid moral rule. To present oneself as a morally decent person, it seems clear which option to choose. Indeed, the patient complies with the moral expectation of choosing responsibility. This is a clear example of how the nurse actively reinforces the moral nature of SCID-II questions.

Discussion

This research highlights how moral connotations naturally emerge in the psychiatric assessment of personality disorders. Furthermore, it demonstrates how professionals work with patients to clarify their responses and, in doing so, collaboratively define the moral nature of their behavior. Recognizing the presence of the moral frame —alongside the information-gathering and everyday interaction frames — provides a more nuanced understanding of psychiatric encounters. While psychiatric assessments are primarily structured around data collection, moral considerations inevitably influence how both patients and professionals navigate the conversations. Acknowledging this interplay offers deeper insight into the social dynamics of psychiatric interviews.

From the patient’s perspective, a psychiatric assessment often involves highly sensitive matters. Questioning about a patient’s non-normative behavior is potentially face-threatening. Therefore, it is essential for professionals to consider how to approach these issues carefully. Protecting the patient’s face when dealing with sensitive matters can help them to gradually confront potentially problematic aspects of their behavior. Failure to do so may lead patients to withhold some challenging aspects of their experience. Furthermore, preserving a patient’s face is not just about eliciting open communication — it is also important for the sake of good working alliance.

On a different note, Jörg Bergmann has demonstrated that speaking about an event or behavior cautiously signals that the speaker treats it as a delicate and morally dubious matter. In psychiatric interviews, recipients of such cautious formulations may interpret them as considerate and sympathetic invitations to share their experiences, but sometimes they interpret them as conveying moral judgments. This dual scenario underlines the need for professionals to strike a balance between face-saving practices on the one hand and direct, transparent communication on the other.

Beyond gathering clinical data, a psychiatric assessment situation also serves as a space where patients process their problems and construct their identities: how they appear as persons, have they failed in some way in their lives, and so on. If professionals do not provide patients with the time and space for this reflection, they risk disregarding issues that are deeply significant to patients. Perhaps mental health professionals need to engage in moral discussions to some degree to maintain a strong working alliance with their patients. As Erving Goffman has noted, people use talk not only to exchange information, but often to justify the approval and sympathy they seek for themselves. Sensitivity to patients’ identity concerns is crucial for practitioners to keep in mind for humane psychiatric practice.

There is still an important question left unaswered: how should we understand the interplay between psychiatry and medicine as a whole? Some philosophers of medicine have criticized the psychiatric diagnostic system for its entanglement with moral values, while others defend the medical legitimacy of diagnoses despite their moral connotations. My research focuses on practical manifestations of morality in real-life psychiatric assessments rather than the ontology of diagnoses themselves. However, I do have some thoughts on the issue.

It seems evident that psychiatry is inherently value-laden. Determing which conditions qualify as disorders requires value judgments, as disorders can only be assessed in relation to a measure of normality. Jörg Bermann, among others, has argued that in psychiatry this notion of ”normal” is more random and historically contingent than in somatic medicine. Psychiatric diagnoses are closely tied to societal expectations of normative behavior and ideals of a good life. Recognizing this, I would argue, challenges the credibility and validity of psychiatry as a purely medical discipline.

However, the issue is complex. It would be an oversimplification to treat all psychiatric diagnoses as a single category in terms of their moral implications. For example, individuals with certain personality disorders who have the capacity to make choices yet act in ways that deviate from social norms might be seen as experiencing a moral failure rather than a medical condition. At the same time, it would be cruel to blame someone suffering from severe depression for laziness. While all psychiatric diagnoses involve normative assumptions — such as what constitutes a ”healthy” level of energy — the nature of these value judgments differs.

The key issue here is agency: does the person have the ability to choose otherwise? Many individuals diagnosed with personality disorders may lack this freedom due to their history, genetics, or other factors. But this raises the broader and more difficult question of free will itself — do people, in general, have free will? As a society, we operate on the assumption that they do. If we reject this assumption for individuals with personality disorders, on what grounds do we continue to hold others accountable for their actions? The fact that a diagnosis such an antisocial personality disorder does not prevent a person from facing legal consequences suggests that we implicitly maintain the assumption of agency.

In summary, morality is an inherent part of psychiatry and should be actively reflected on to improve both practices and classification systems. It is particularly important for professionals in the field to recognize psychiatry’s connection to social norms rather than portraying it as a neutral branch of medicine.

Final Note

The diagnostic system and assessment of personality disorders evolve over time. My data that were collected in 2019 were based on the SCID-II interview, which followed DSM-IV criteria and was still used in Finland at the time. In Western countries, two psychiatric manuals are used: the ICD (International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems) by the World Health Organization and the DSM (American Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), published by the American Psychiatric Association. Both have since been updated. While the ICD is the official system in Finland, DSM-based diagnostic tools can still be used, with information subsequently converted into ICD diagnoses.

The DSM-5 introduced SCID-5-PD, a revised version of the SCID-II interview. However, the DSM-IV personality disorder criteria remain unchanged. The ICD-11, the newest version of that manual, is currently being implemented in Finland. Notably, the ICD-11 replaces the categorical model of personality disorders with a trait-based continuum, aligning more closely with contemporary scientific understanding.

Although my data are based on the older classification, this research is valuable in addressing general interactional dynamics of personality disorder assessment. Once the newer model is fully implemented, further research will be essential in examining communication in its practical application.

***

Mad in America hosts blogs by a diverse group of writers. These posts are designed to serve as a public forum for a discussion—broadly speaking—of psychiatry and its treatments. The opinions expressed are the writers’ own.

23 COMMENTS

  1. TRUTH: These kinds of interviews are TRAPS. Thankfully AI agrees with me:

    “These psychiatric interviews aren’t just information-gathering exercises—they are subtle traps, designed to steer patients toward self-condemnation within a rigid diagnostic framework.

    The SCID-ll interviews, for example, don’t just assess symptoms; they force patients into moral negotiations, where they must either admit to violating social norms or defend themselves against implicit judgment. The questions are often loaded, making it nearly impossible for someone to respond without reinforcing the assumption that something is fundamentally wrong with them.

    It’s not an honest conversation—it’s a structured interrogation disguised as care. And by presenting it as purely “clinical”, psychiatry sidesteps the ethical responsibility of acknowledging how deeply subjective these assessments truly are.”

    These kinds of “interviews” are invasive and morally compromised—as are the very people who conduct them.

    Anyone who believes in personality “disorders” is themself a depraved individual.

    IMHO

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  2. Pathologizing personality itself is an act of moral corruption and cowardice as it ignores the ethical implications of reducing human complexity to rigid diagnostic categories.

    Psychiatric diagnosing is an intentional act of moral failure. Ease over ethics is no excuse.

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  3. This text still positions personality disorder diagnoses as something with value and accuracy. In practice what they mean is “you’re a freak because I think and say so”. Having clusters such as “odd” and “dramatic” really says it all. And you can be slapped with such a diagnosis so easily, so arbitrarily, and it can be practically impossible to get rid of it.

    It’s simply not ethical to give such extremely stigmatizing, at the end of the day completely subjective diagnoses at all. And what for? They really have quite little purpose. They certainly don’t really benefit the “patient”.

    How can “you’re a shit person” or “your personality is wrong” be a medical diagnosis? It can’t.

    And then they say that these features developed in childhood and are inflexible. But how would they know that for the average patient? They weren’t there. They don’t.

    People think that these diagnoses “catch” the hopelessly evil, “toxic” and “impossible to reason with” people and are given objectively and only when “absolutely necessary”. In reality politely disagreeing with a doctor can be reason enough for having one. And at the same time, in reality the world is often ruled, large-scale and small-scale, by erratic and selfish people who are simply powerful enough to not to be in “psychiatric care”, and who would NEVER subject themselves to psychiatric evaluation, no matter how much damage and suffering they cause to others. They understand how vulnerable that could make them and they don’t want that.

    These diagnoses don’t really, with any reasonable reliability, correlate with having a dangerous, toxic, hopeless or whatever horribly “broken” personality. These diagnoses most strongly correlate with vulnerability. They correlate with being someone who had the humility to think there’s something wrong with them and who, at some point, had the belief that “medical professionals” would help. It’s all such a joke.

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  4. I guess society’s institutions need to trust themselves- their identities are built on their beliefs and to question and examine the evidence would lead to the deconstruction of beliefs and the loss of their identity. Why that would be annihilation of the institutions and I am sure that must be terrifying for many and may result in despair. The process of recovery and rebuilding into something new would be painful and arduous.

    Why not simply paint over what already exists- reform? Then beliefs and status quo and identity can be maintained.

    And more pragmatically, the requirement of academics to publish can be fulfilled.

    I think this might explain the gap from what is spoken and the raw reality of that which is spoken. Every system fights for survival with its own constructed defenses.

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  5. “What psychiatry needs more of is research on face-to-face interactions between professionals and patients to show how diagnoses are made on a practical level. How do the participants negotiate understandings of pathology?”

    This quote gets at something crucial: what happens in the room is never neutral or purely clinical—it’s a negotiation. But right now, that negotiation is one-sided. The assessor decides, and the client is expected to comply. That’s why I argue for recording the interaction. Not as surveillance, but as shared reflection. If both people could watch it together, they might catch projections, power moves, or moments of misunderstanding. But that kind of mutual observation would shift the dynamic—and psychiatry isn’t designed to allow that.

    Assessors aren’t blank slates. They feel things, consciously or not—and those feelings influence how they interpret the client. If the assessor feels anxious, the client can suddenly seem unstable. If the assessor feels in control or neutral, the client might be seen as manipulative. These aren’t clinical judgments—they’re emotional projections disguised as objectivity. These things go on unnoticed or unacknowledged.

    Diagnosis is predetermined—it’s not a conversation, it’s a sorting process.

    When a client says, “I felt crazy, but not anymore,” they’re speaking to change and growth. But psychiatry often ignores that, choosing instead to preserve the story of illness. Why? Because diagnosis is often pre-decided. The structure of assessment is like a maze—with only one exit, a label. It’s not about understanding the person. It’s about categorizing them quickly and neatly. There’s no real curiosity, only a drive to classify.

    “For example, in a medical setting, patients usually interpret intimate questions as part of a medical assessment rather than an intrusion…”

    This assumes people always trust the frame of medicine—that they see it as helpful and not invasive. But many don’t. Especially in psychiatry, where terms like “crazy” carry social baggage. These labels are often imposed, not chosen because any other description other than what is expected (crazy enough to bring you in contact) will just make your labeling that much more restricted. And when someone questions the process or refuses to go along with it, they risk being labeled “resistant.” What gets called clinical is often just cultural: a western (simply because the labeling carries monetization), moralized lens that doesn’t leave much room for difference or disagreement. In fact, if client persist the experience too much, you might be involuntarily held or given the “worst” diagnosis….huge risk for speaking back!

    “In this way, my work makes visible the often overlooked moral underpinnings of psychiatric assessment.”

    This isn’t about morality—it’s about power. It seems the author may have given permission to conduct the research for precisely framing it morality rather than power!

    We like to pretend psychiatry is guided by compassion or ethics. But when you look closer, it’s about control. The assessor has a license. They get to decide what counts as normal or abnormal. That power is real—and it shapes everything. So when we say someone is “bad” or “disordered,” it’s not a neutral or moral observation. It’s an act of classification backed by institutional authority. That’s not care. That’s dominance dressed up as diagnosis.

    A better way exists—but it threatens the system.
    A more constructive approach might be to simply ask: ‘It appears you did A, B, and C—how do you think you might approach it next time?’ or what do you think that side of you and how would like to manage depending on context (no one should act normal and stable in the face of harm and abuse)? So open the conversation not close ideas!

    This is how understanding could actually happen: by asking open, reflective questions that allow the person to think through their actions and reactions without adding fear of marking. That would make the process collaborative. But this rarely happens. The assessor is expected to lead, define, and conclude. Letting go of that control would flip the roles—turning the clinician into a support, not an authority. That’s a threat to the system’s entire structure.

    In today’s mental health system, diagnosis often relies on hidden assumptions… The dynamic silently shifts: We act like assessors are neutral, like their personal feelings or professional trained to keep the gate don’t enter the room. But they do. And the client ends up holding all the complexity, all the emotion, all the risk. Meanwhile, the assessor remains protected, unexamined, and unquestioned. This isn’t just unrealistic—it’s harmful. Emotional presence isn’t the problem. The refusal to name it is.

    Psychiatry, as it currently functions, often chooses categorization over connection, power over partnership. It’s not built to hold two people’s truths in the room at the same time. But that’s exactly what healing requires: presence, curiosity, shared meaning-making. Instead, we get a system that protects the assessor and flattens the client into a label. Until that changes, we’re not really listening—we’re sorting.

    Ironically, another article on MIA discusses how social media has begun to reverse the language of psychiatry. In the end, isn’t it all a contest over whose perspective—and whose language—wins out? And now, that contest is being played out on the field of technology.

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  6. I got banned out of a mental health chatroom today for saying that psych labels are not explanations of problems (they are just categorisations). The “you are not a medical professional” card was used and I’m allegedly a danger to the chatters with my views. Also had the false allegation of “you are attempting to talk people out of seeing their doctors” put.

    There was a woman raving about how she’s borderline and that makes her meet narcissists and psychopaths. I found it sad how people view their lives through the prism of such terms. I mentioned that going through problems is bad enough without seeing your life through the prism of such labels.

    Here is a transcript (usernames have been changed to Mod and me):

    Mod (18:39:16)
    Hello, me, I’m a mod for this chat and I need a moment of your time, plz.
    Please respond here.

    me (18:39:23)
    yes

    Mod (18:39:58)
    I am sorry, but as you are not a medical professional, and are attempting to talk people out of seeing their doctors, you are being removed.

    me (18:40:05)
    huh?

    Mod (18:40:10)
    TY for your time, please DO NOT return in 48 hours.

    me (18:40:14)
    i did not attempt to talk people out of seeing doctors
    that’s not true at all

    Mod (18:40:33)
    You are saying psychology is not a valid medical field.

    me (18:40:43)
    how does having a conversation about psychiatric categorisations have anything to do with not seeing doctors?

    i said no such thing

    Mod (18:40:52)
    You are mistaken, and because such views are dangerous to our chatters, you’re being removed.

    me (18:41:01)
    please show me where i said “psychology is not a valid medical field”

    Mod (18:41:21)

    [08:07:37] i don’t care how many times they call psych categorisations as diagnoses. they aren’t. we’ve been forced to believe they are, but they aren’t

    me (18:41:44)
    yes, and i stand by that

    https://www.madinamerica.com/2015/04/psychiatric-diagnoses-labels-not-explanations/

    Mod (18:41:46)
    categorisations which are often applied against a person’s will is different

    me (18:41:53)
    there are articles published on it
    by licensed psychologists
    since that’s something that is valid for you

    Mod (18:42:08)
    as I said, you are not a medical professional, and your views are dangerous for our chatters, so you’re being banned.

    Please do not return in 48 hours, ty.

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      • Yes. It’s this place (I placed it in a temporary URL: you can proceed to the actual site in 5s after you click that link). The chatters are cool but the moderation is not very far from what websites like crazymeds were. Online psych wards.

        They feel “chatters are at risk” with what people like me say, but not that they risk others with their psychiatry indoctrinated mentality. Modern day kapos for psychiatry graduates. I swear, the psychiatry clientele that stands up for the dirt peddled by Psychiatry graduates is worse than them.

        I for one don’t deny any sort of suffering (depression to hallucinations to chronic hoarding to habitual lying), nor do I say people should not take meds or TMS or any of it. That doesn’t mean I can’t see through and call damaging bullshit when I see it. Their mentality is a danger to me and people like me. Ban me all you want. Keep repeating “you are not a medical professional”. I’ll still say it. Truth is truth. Logic is logic.

        Psychiatric categorisations are not diagnoses that explain problems. Malaria explains why you have a fever. MDD doesn’t explain why you’re depressed. I don’t need to do entire courses in anatomy and physiology and learn how to remove a man’s appendix to understand something so trivial.

        The fact that Psychiatry departments and psychiatry graduates from Harvard and Yale to Department of Psychiatry, AIIMS Delhi or PGI-Chandigarh or Christian Medical College, Vellore or every rural town in India or Vietnam or Hungary or wherever have brainwashed everyone into calling descriptions and categorisations “diagnoses” till it has become normal to do so, they write discharge summary after discharge summary for every unfortunate person who ends up in their departments with categorisations like “borderline personality disorder” and “bipolar affective disorder” under the heading of “diagnoses” and they come up with every Tom, Dick and Harry excuse like “they are syndromal diagnoses” or whatever else to make their jobs easier does not mean I will not see through it and call out the harm and damage that comes from it.

        In fact, I’ll scream louder at the top of my voice. You’re ruining lives. This website is full of those lives.

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    • “I found it sad how people view their lives through the prism of such terms. I mentioned that going through problems is bad enough without seeing your life through the prism of such labels.”

      It’s very sad. But even sadder is that the majority of psych professionals seem blissfully unconcerned about the harm they cause.

      They must have a very bad case of anosognosia.

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  7. Psychiatry and psychology graduates: you have done a great number on people.

    When people start thinking that acknowledging people’s suffering but standing against stigmatising and often detrimental labels is actually a detriment to other people’s well-being, people in society have lost their marbles.

    Once again, this makes me so happy that garbage like the crazymeds website completely disappeared off of the face of the internet.

    This “you are not a medical professional” is what they use to strip people’s autonomy over their OWN lives also. Hell, being a medical professional also wouldn’t matter. They’d still attack you. Truth is truth irrespective of who says it. Medical professional or not.

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    • “Truth is truth irrespective of who says it. Medical professional or not.”

      Love it, and the comment/chat narrative above. I was having some discussions, and providing proof of my allegations, with a group of Muslims from a ‘sect’ that are not recognised as Muslims by Sunni. One of them suggested that we involve a psychiatrist…….. and I explained that this is the problem, torture, kidnapping and attempted murder are not ‘medical issues’ because the people doing it are ‘medical professionals’. And after seeing the documented proof the matters become legal, not medical. These are criminal matters which the State finds can be “edited” to make them APPEAR to be medical matters and then bury them due to the total lack of accountability. Something being exploited very well by criminals and corrupt public servants.

      Fascinating to watch …… especially at how organised these criminals actually are. And being their enabler means that it can not be possible to do ones duty should they ever get caught. A bit like our war criminals being given medals by our ‘elites’ for executing ten year old boys as a bit of fun.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8kz6pCizi4

      The people speaking the truth need to be punished to ensure the falsehoods can be maintained.

      I notice that issues arise when the State hands corrupt conduct over to the medical fraternity (police ‘flag’ matters and ensure no action is taken over crimes) to deal with and there are disagreements between doctors…… one thinks the easy path is to euthanise the victims in the E.D. and another “doesn’t have the stomach for it” and prefers fraud and slander of ‘mental health’ (Martha Mitchell style)….. quite the moral dilemma. Murder (disguised with a three card Monte) or character assassination (as in labels galore and denial of human rights [which strangely we don’t actually have, as George Carlin explained about Japanese Americans 1940s])

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    • “Psychiatry and psychology graduates: you have done a great number on people.”

      Most do it unconsciously because they learned their labeling garbage when they were too young and impressionable to know any better—or were too fearful (or too foolish) to question the morality of accepting the status quo. They seemed to have earned their degrees in conformity.

      Professional success trumps morality for lots of college graduates—and people with psych degrees are no exception.

      IMHO.

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  8. I actually hate people who hide behind “professionalism” when they label people with this crap. You are someone’s son, someone’s daughter. Along with you, your parents (if they were decent and caring) had aspirations for you to go to med school and become a doctor.

    You know full well what you’re doing to another human being when you label them with personality disorders, especially if they come from abusive circumstances themselves. Even if they are perpetrators of abuse (like people who talk about their crazy borderline ex who went on a disinformation campaign against them etc.), I don’t see why you can’t simply say the person did that. You know how those labels will impact their life, career, future medical care etc. They are someone’s son or daughter too. KateL has written for years about how badly the “BPD” label impacted her life. She was laughed out of places both online and offline.

    I wish more people in my country (India) talked about this. The negatives of psychiatric labelling. All you see from psychiatry and psychology graduates here is “the importance of recognising and treating mental illness”.

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    • “I actually hate people who hide behind “professionalism” when they label people with this crap.”

      I hate them, too!!! It’s sickening how (most?) are unwilling to see what they’re doing is actually psychological vandalism, i.e. medicalized graffiti.

      Labeling is a form of bullying, professionalized or not.

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    • “like people who talk about their crazy borderline ex who went on a disinformation campaign against them etc.”

      Funny story. The ‘counsellor’ who conspired to have me tortured and kidnapped by mental health services with my ‘wife’ (ie go home and ‘spike’ him with benzos and we’ll arrange a ‘swatting’ by telling police he is an “Outpatient”) actually gave my wife a copy of a book about Borderline P.D. to hand on to me. Interesting that they were conspiring to try and conceal their offending by this point and attempting to make me into her ‘patient’ post hoc….. but ……

      I said to my wife “I don’t have Borderline P.D. so tell her to stick this up her arse” Clever of the ‘counsellor to try and make HER co conspirator a Borderline to avoid criminal responsibility. Yes, she was trying to tell me my wife was a Borderline. A bit like the shoplifting thief claiming they have kleptomania once they get caught stealing.

      Police buy it because they were stooged into assisting with a torture and kidnapping and just find it easy to pervert the course of justice by refusing to accept the documented proof, utter with fraud and deny access to legal representation.

      And the idiots celebrating the “freedoms our Anzacs fought for” talk about ‘democracy’ waaahahahahahaha

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