Yeah, it’s hard to say because the mental health system can create a learned helplessness that reduces people’s confidence. That definitely happened to me.
I’m glad you were able to live above it and not kill yourself.
Maybe for a sense of inclusion or camaraderie with others who have that label? Maybe so others will view them with compassion (it may not usually work that way, but in certain circles it does). It’s pretty easy to get a label though…can’t imagine needing to beg for one. What do you think?
Interesting streetphotobeing. There have been studies that show a knowing someone has a diagnostic label lowers compassion and contributes to dehumanization, less empathy for the person with a label’s suffering etc.
Thanks Rosalee. Sounds like you listened to the podcast which I appreciate!
I love holy basil/tulsi for calming and adrenals and people have found it helpful in psych drug withdrawal as well, along with my favorite, oatstraw.
I have never found labels or disorder language helpful myself either though sometimes I resonate with the idea of feeling “sick” whether long term or acutely for a short while. Not in a pathologizing sense like many people use it, but more like I have the flu. It’s weird how with mental illness labels “sick” sounds like a degrading insult to me. But I’m not sure everyone thinks of it that way. Either way I only find it useful to talk to myself that way and would never want that label put on me by anyone else.
Kindredspirit, same here. I relate with that part about self care a lot also.
I agree with you too about the language, yet so many people use that language to describe their experience, so it’s good to have people who can speak that language AND talk about things in a nuanced way. It isn’t my framework either, yet so much of what Jesse shares still resonates with me..
Thanks Fiachra. Yeah, twitter is pretty cool. Sometimes better than Facebook for certain things. Took me awhile to figure that out. Join us there if you’d like.
Interesting perspective Something Else. It seems some people have an easier time fitting in to society’s prescribed frameworks. it can definitely be a struggle to be an artist in this world, yet like you say, we are so needed.
Steve: yeah, depends whether the Bible is seen as a holy book or a false system of coercion and social control. It’s probably both, but the DSM is severely lacking in the holy factor.
Cat Night, you’re right about the prison industrial complex. Many many are on psych drugs there too. And it is definitely obviously an extremely racist institution and extremely unjust. I agree. Thanks for bringing this up.
Thanks. Good article. I have thought about this a lot as what is called the autism spectrum seems to keep including more and more things, many of which seem in opposite ends of a spectrum. Like everything that is either highly sensitive OR highly insensitive to anything can be considered on the spectrum.
I used to think I was the opposite of autistic, as I tend to be hyper aware of other people, hyper sensitive to surroundings. But now those traits are also discussed as being on the autistic spectrum.
I think if the label helps someone get services and accommodations, then it has a use but I definitely don’t know what people are referring to when they identify as autistic
as it seems to encompass people with both very high and very low levels of different types of sensitivities.
Yeah, I think there are as many “bibles” as there are people probably…or more.
We all have different books that can serve as our bibles at different times and it helps to stretch our imagination about what a “bible” can be (maybe not as far as the dsm tho!) . Especially to include things written by marginalized/oppressed groups.
I’m sure they do have the dsm in there-but in the doctors offices, not floating around the ward.
Thanks Margaret. I certainly drank copious amounts of water when on psych drugs, to the point that my psychiatrist and other doctors were concerned my problems were caused by water toxicity. Unfortunately, it didn’t flush the drugs out of my system, or at least not enough to prevent them from harming me.
and you know about cytochrome P450 liver enzymes? About 10% of caucasians just can’t process the psych drugs and they build up to toxic levels. There’s genetic tests so you can tell ahead of time if you are a “High metabolizer” or low metabolizer but they’re not used clinically yet for some reason.
Boans, wow that is terrible. I haven’t heard of it in the US but who knows? How do they do it? If patients know that is possible, can’t they avoid consuming anything given to them by their psychiatrist? Or do they get family members complicit in this too? Sounds terrilbe!!!
BTW I subscribed to comments on this blog via MIA but haven’t gotten them emailed to me, so I am having a hard time keeping up with responding and finding the new ones. Steve M, or someone at MIA, do you know why the subscription feature didn’t work? It’s worked for me in the past.
I appreciate this comment Steve Spiegel. BTW I subscribed to comments on this blog via MIA but haven’t gotten them emailed to me, so I am havinga hard time keeping up with responding and finding the new ones. Steve M, or someone at MIA, do you know why the subscription feature didn’t work? It’s worked for me in the past.
John, that’s cool. Have you made any videos or blogs yourself? That might be an avenue to get your story out. You could even submit to this very website.
Thank you eccentric. That makes sense. Would you clarify for me which parts you relate to and which feel alienating? My understanding is that as an atheist you don’t believe in a God or gods, though I still don’t know your belief system.
I think the term God means so many different things to different people and can be religious or just an overall sense that there is a force of good. Either way, I get that you don’t believe in it, but I am curious to know what that means to you.
Same with the word soul. What does it mean to you and what about it is alienating? Does it seem to be associated with a particular religious belief?
To me it is a sense of who I am beyond my body, so perhaps you don’t believe that we are anything beyond our bodies? I don’t know. Honestly, it’s like if someone tells me they have a certain diagnosis, I want to know what that means to them, even if I have stereotypes about what it may mean.
Perhaps I could have clarified in this piece what I meant by soul, and I wonder if that would have been more or less alienating to you and possibly others?
John, again, I agree with you 1000%. There are already hundreds of thousands of people on psych drugs and many of them can’t get off when they try, even though they realize the diagnoses are not valid.
I think you are right though. Undiagnosing is a huge piece- especially in allocating funds towards resources for people in withdrawal. And of course for not getting people on in the first place.
John, I completely agree with you. If you read any of my other articles you will see that. The purpose of this article and the ideas behind it, is to support people in freeing themselves from psychiatric drugs. I talk to people regularly who know everything you (and I ) are saying about the politics, but are still struggling immensely with psychiatric drugs withdrawal for years.
So there’s knowing what is going on and then what are we going to do about it? Many people have been made too sick by psychiatry to go out and try to change the system. They can barely get out of bed or even read/write. That’s where I was at too.
I completely agree with all of your points. You are preaching to the choir. If you read my other blogs you’ll understand where I’m coming from. I’ve been saying all the things you are writing here for almost 2 decades now.
But we need to also meet people where they are at, and offer practical steps to empowerment.
ConcernedCarer, I pretty much agree with you. When I say “designed” I do not mean in a benevolent way. Yes, they were discovered, but then they were tweaked into their “medication” form. I don’t credit these drugs with anything helpful either.
markps2 I agree. Though the ones marketed as medications are designed to make people feel better withinthe first few months so that they will stay on them, and stay straightjacketed, and more importantly so that they will appear to be “working” in drug trials.
Thanks out. I think you are right. The drugging is a part of the picture of oppression, but not the whole thing. In some ways it is a big part because it does leave people so intensely vulnerable and out of control of their own body and mind. But then so do abuse and neglect in other ways.
I think in order to achieve freedom from psych drugs and overall integration, there are definitely bigger pictures of abuse that need to be considered. Everything is so interconnected.
Vanilla, I think this is an excellent point. Also, everyone, please excuse my slow responses, as we are having a smoke storm here in the PNW and it’s been hard for me to think clearly…no comparison intended.
But, yeah, vanilla, I resonate with what you are saying. Even from a young age, the idea of a quick fix, or burying my emotions and problems with pills did not sound like a good idea to me. I personally was forced onto psych drugs and then was in withdrawal without knowing it and reluctantly went on more because I was in such extreme panic. Then I lost my will and ability to discern from the drugs, and ended up taking more “consensually”. But if someone spikes your drink and you then have consensual sex, it that truly consensual? Of course not.
So yeah, it’s tricky how to not blame people for all the circumstances that are out of their control while also offering a path with more integrity.
I personally am not telling anyone else what to do or assessing their behavior or choices, since I don’t see that as my role in other people’s lives. I would like to offer helpful support for those who want freedom from psychiatry. Those who WANT freedom is the key part.
Steve S. I think you’re right. Having lots of compassion for my parents as a child made it harder for me to detach. I think I felt I had to protect my younger sibling too. They were better at raging and seeing the family as crazy, while I was getting drained feeling compassion for everyone. Definitely took its toll.
Janehhhh, It was a local zine that doesn’t exist yet, so I’m sure you wouldn’t have heard of it. I’m not trying to demonize the people making this zine as I don’t know them at all. I might even like to get to know them, and know better their intentions.
I used this as an example, because it prompted these thoughts, but I’ve heard similar words so many times, that the zine person was just another person saying the same party lines as thousands of others.
Thanks Ally. I see what you mean in a way, because sometimes when I have been abused by family members, or others, I have had a strong need to label them somehow. I often go to, “they are a bad person”, which is interesting because I never used to believe people could be inherently bad.
I still don’t actually believe that people are simply bad. Abusive people became that way for a multitude of reasons, yet sometimes I just want to call them bad, because they hurt me so much and analyzing “why” they did so puts me into empathy and considering their situation instead of my own. For me this is usually not healthy at all.
If I decide they are bad people, I can simply stay away from them and focus on bettering my own life, healing and not being abused anymore.
So I think there’s a time and place, especially for those who were conditioned to be empathic, to simply label another person. It doesn’t mean they necessarily have an intrinsic disorder or that it could never be reversed, but it can be a good protective instinct, and a reasonable prediction. People can change, I believe, but after a certain point, I’m not holding my breath, and if I were to do so, it would make ME crazy.
Gabi and Julie, also I think it can sometimes be easier for someone who has less at stake to go along with someone’s story, versus their significant other or family member, who is probably tied into the whole drama much more. Even having an attachment to the outcome can be a hindrance in these circumstances.
Julie, I remember when I was first in the hospital system many years ago (in 2001 to be exact), I told my friends that, “There’s this system,” and when they asked if I trusted my parents to help me, I said, “They’re part of the system.” To them I was psychotic, but when I look back now, I knew exactly what was going on. I knew there was a totally rigged system, and like I said, this was in 2001, before you could do real research on the internet, before anyone in my world (and most of the world) knew or talked about big pharma. It was when people still thought psych drugs were medicine,
Often the one we call psychotic is in some way ahead of the curve in their awareness.
It’s like that Shlomo Riskin Quote: “When you’re one step ahead of the crowd you’re a genius. When you’re two steps ahead, you’re a crackpot.”
Lavendersage, I love this, and I do know people who do theater improv and who are much better than the average person at being with those in “altered states”.
Rachel, definitely. They view marijuana as invading their turf too, and even herbs and supplements, trying to make them seem illegitimate or unscientific, when most of them are far more scientific and safe than their drugs.
Thank you Ally! I’m curious, do you think the term neurodivergent is meaningful or accurate? To me it sounds like yet another euphemism, that may or may not mean anything in particular. Perhaps some people identify with it, but without a set standard for “normal” or “mentally healthy” I’m not sure how we can even know what neurodivergent is. And more importantly, I don’t want a standard for mentally healthy as I think it would severely limit creativity, connection and healing.
I totally agree with you about iatrogenesis and how little social support there is, how few people even know about it or understand it, even now.
Thanks Igor. I never felt good about that book. I heard rumors it was sponsored by pharma, like they paid her to write it, though I don’t know for sure. I wouldn’t be surprised though. Even the phrase “my drugs” or “my meds” bothers me because people identify with them as “theirs” which doesn’t seem healthy, like it creates an attachment.
Yes gabi, I agree and thanks for your comment. As far as we know all or almost all of the mass shooters in recent years were on psych drugs. CCHR has a list of all of them if you google it.
I do think in emergencies, drugs can be helpful, when taken as a one time thing, or maybe for a few days to help some one calm down or sleep if there’s an emergency need for sedation.
There may be herbs and less dangerous techniques that can work too. Recently a young woman in my town died of a chemical restraint, that was a benzo.
Some herbs are extremely calming and sedating, and safer than benzos. An expert herbalist would know more than me, even while I’ve been studying and using herbs for a long time. There are those who know more. Sometimes even good food can be enough to stop violent behavior. Common sense often goes out the window in emergency moments.
Well put Slaying the Dragon. Don’t you think the term “meds” came about with psychiatry because medicine is so obviously an inaccurate term? “Meds” is a euphemism, and feels a little less dishonest than medicine somehow.
Yeah, we can say whatever we want but if the law disagrees we have a real issue. If “science” disagrees, we have a social issue because “science” is waaaaay more political than people would like to admit.
Sticks and stones can break my bones but names will never hurt me… What we are inaccurately called only matters if it is then considered “science” or worse, law.
Sylvain, thanks for your comment. I agree with you that people have a hard time being honest with themselves. On one hand I think you are right, that there is a personal responsibility that is being averted.
On the other hand, I don’t think people need to take total responsibility for everything in their lives OR put the responsibility on diagnoses and drugs if they are able to hold complexity. In fact, I think if people were able to accept that they don’t actually know why they lived, or the exact cause of their problems, and acknowledge that there were/are a bunch of different possibilities, explanations and forces at play, they might be able to find peace without dishonestly clinging to an unscientific or untrue explanation.
If it’s a choice between saying it’s all their responsibility or all a diagnosis and a drug, many people will choose a diagnosis drug…but if it’a also socioeconomics, trauma, mystery, fate, etc etc…then there doesn’t need to be one answer. To me that is more honest, and even more scientific.
This blog got quoted in one called “A Therapist Explains What Happens When People Try To Quit Psychiatric Meds”
Here are the links, if you want to see public comments or join in these conversations:
Thanks so much S_Randolph. I forgot to mention that I work with people all over the world. Almost all of my work is by phone or video chat. You can surely refer anyone to me from your local area or anywhere at all. That’s great that you work with folks as a lawyer and I will surely keep you in mind if anyone in the Chicago area reaches out to me.
Thank you Camille. I hear you and know a lot of people in similar shoes. When you’ve been on the drugs for a long time sometimes it takes a lot more support and resources than most people have access to. Hopefully someday high quality detox centers will be freely available to all. Thanks for your comment.
Thank you so much for your supportive comment JanCarol. Yes, there is lots of info online, both helpful and not, so I aim to help people find the best info for where they are currently at and inplement it in ways that are personally relevant. Thanks again and I’m glad you are helping people at survivingantidepressants. I often link to that site on my blog.
Hi Rachel, I do think I could help you find ways to absorb nutrients. There are a lot of alternatives to supplements in liquid, herbal and/or food based forms that we could talk about. I wish you the best! Molasses is a good idea from Steve and if you take it with vitamin c rich foods such as fruit or lemon juice, the iron will be better absorbed. I have a lot of other ideas for you for when we talk.
Hi Rachel, I’m sorry to hear this. It can take awhile to recover from all of this. Where are you located? Are you taking any supplements for the anemia?
Tireless fighter, I get your point and it has some validity. Yet, if you look for everything to be “therapy, healing, life coaching and motivationalism” you can make any simple human act of striving to survive or live well into your idea of a demon.
People are doing their best and sometimes have the time/energy/resources to fight and other times are doing what they can to survive and live their lives the best way they can.
As Steve said, living well is the best revenge. Your point that taking action is necessary is valid though.
I do appreciate where you are coming from, and agree that systemic injustice is at the root of it all and denying that will not “heal” anything. So thanks for your relentless belaboring of this point.
It was also the direction of this article, which had nothing to do with therapy, life coaches etc etc. but rather acknowledging the injustice and addressing it.
We likely have different strategies, since I don’t tend to believe in violent retaliation, though many have the impulse for revenge.
Hi Tirelessfighter. I disagree. Hitting children is commonplace and most people do not end up enforced by the law since hitting children is legal as long as it isn’t “severe” or leaving heavy bruises.
Are you saying well off educated people don’t hit children? That is simply not true.
It seems you didn’t read what I wrote about healing coming from NOT continuing to live in denial. That was the whole point.
Saying someone is completely off base and then not referring to what was actually written here isn’t helpful.
I agree with some of what you say at the end here about choosing not to collaborate with perpetrators…but that is not contradictory to what I wrote.
Thanks Steve. Totally agree and well said. Yes, social and familial abuse go hand and hand. I read something really good about that recently that I will need to send you. It was about how Hitler was so severely abused and treated as subhuman by his family. It talked about how we often replicate the abuse we experience in our families and then expect/accept that treatment from society (or perpetuate it, depending on the level of socioeconomic power).
A lot of survivors of abuse in childhood go on to have abusive conditions at their jobs, but it just seems normal or comfortable as that was all they/we knew.
Hi Fred,
That quote is a perfect example of why no one can be outcast as fundamentally “psychiatrically or psychologically ill”. How could any soul be a mistake that needs to be permanently drugged into compliance?
Thanks for checking out my work. I appreciate your recognition.
Yeah, it’s hard to say because the mental health system can create a learned helplessness that reduces people’s confidence. That definitely happened to me.
I’m glad you were able to live above it and not kill yourself.
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Maybe for a sense of inclusion or camaraderie with others who have that label? Maybe so others will view them with compassion (it may not usually work that way, but in certain circles it does). It’s pretty easy to get a label though…can’t imagine needing to beg for one. What do you think?
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Interesting streetphotobeing. There have been studies that show a knowing someone has a diagnostic label lowers compassion and contributes to dehumanization, less empathy for the person with a label’s suffering etc.
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Thanks Rosalee. Sounds like you listened to the podcast which I appreciate!
I love holy basil/tulsi for calming and adrenals and people have found it helpful in psych drug withdrawal as well, along with my favorite, oatstraw.
I have never found labels or disorder language helpful myself either though sometimes I resonate with the idea of feeling “sick” whether long term or acutely for a short while. Not in a pathologizing sense like many people use it, but more like I have the flu. It’s weird how with mental illness labels “sick” sounds like a degrading insult to me. But I’m not sure everyone thinks of it that way. Either way I only find it useful to talk to myself that way and would never want that label put on me by anyone else.
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Yes, definitely. Sometimes it baffles me when people share my views so much on some things and not so much on others regarding psychiatry.
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Kindredspirit, same here. I relate with that part about self care a lot also.
I agree with you too about the language, yet so many people use that language to describe their experience, so it’s good to have people who can speak that language AND talk about things in a nuanced way. It isn’t my framework either, yet so much of what Jesse shares still resonates with me..
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Thanks for letting us know Nijinsky. Not sure if I have editing powers…
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Thanks Fiachra. Yeah, twitter is pretty cool. Sometimes better than Facebook for certain things. Took me awhile to figure that out. Join us there if you’d like.
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Interesting perspective Something Else. It seems some people have an easier time fitting in to society’s prescribed frameworks. it can definitely be a struggle to be an artist in this world, yet like you say, we are so needed.
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Rachel, What time period are you referring to?
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Bradford, definitely!
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Steve: yeah, depends whether the Bible is seen as a holy book or a false system of coercion and social control. It’s probably both, but the DSM is severely lacking in the holy factor.
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Miranda-totally!
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Well said Someone Else. Yeah, psychiatry is a major delusion of grandeur in itself.
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Cat Night, you’re right about the prison industrial complex. Many many are on psych drugs there too. And it is definitely obviously an extremely racist institution and extremely unjust. I agree. Thanks for bringing this up.
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Thanks. Good article. I have thought about this a lot as what is called the autism spectrum seems to keep including more and more things, many of which seem in opposite ends of a spectrum. Like everything that is either highly sensitive OR highly insensitive to anything can be considered on the spectrum.
I used to think I was the opposite of autistic, as I tend to be hyper aware of other people, hyper sensitive to surroundings. But now those traits are also discussed as being on the autistic spectrum.
I think if the label helps someone get services and accommodations, then it has a use but I definitely don’t know what people are referring to when they identify as autistic
as it seems to encompass people with both very high and very low levels of different types of sensitivities.
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Thank you Alex!
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Thanks madmom.
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Thank you oldhead.
Yeah, I think there are as many “bibles” as there are people probably…or more.
We all have different books that can serve as our bibles at different times and it helps to stretch our imagination about what a “bible” can be (maybe not as far as the dsm tho!) . Especially to include things written by marginalized/oppressed groups.
I’m sure they do have the dsm in there-but in the doctors offices, not floating around the ward.
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Thanks Ekaterina,
It starts in January 2019! excited that you joined. As for sleep I agree with the suggestions of others here.
Here are a few other things that may help:
https://chayagrossberg.com/herbs-and-supplement-for-anxiety/
I also like skullcap, passionflower and hops for sleep.
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Thanks Margaret. I certainly drank copious amounts of water when on psych drugs, to the point that my psychiatrist and other doctors were concerned my problems were caused by water toxicity. Unfortunately, it didn’t flush the drugs out of my system, or at least not enough to prevent them from harming me.
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Thanks S and T.
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I made this video about why I don’t say mental health.
https://chayagrossberg.com/mental-health/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg2_N1P8Qi8
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From Corinna West who can’t remember her MIA password and sent this to me privately:
have the read this book? https://hsperson.com/
and you know about cytochrome P450 liver enzymes? About 10% of caucasians just can’t process the psych drugs and they build up to toxic levels. There’s genetic tests so you can tell ahead of time if you are a “High metabolizer” or low metabolizer but they’re not used clinically yet for some reason.
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OK, it doesn’t seem to be in response to anything being discussed though.
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Boans, wow that is terrible. I haven’t heard of it in the US but who knows? How do they do it? If patients know that is possible, can’t they avoid consuming anything given to them by their psychiatrist? Or do they get family members complicit in this too? Sounds terrilbe!!!
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yep…
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There have been several new comments today but I can’t find them.
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Thank Steve, that would be great.
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BTW I subscribed to comments on this blog via MIA but haven’t gotten them emailed to me, so I am having a hard time keeping up with responding and finding the new ones. Steve M, or someone at MIA, do you know why the subscription feature didn’t work? It’s worked for me in the past.
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I appreciate this comment Steve Spiegel. BTW I subscribed to comments on this blog via MIA but haven’t gotten them emailed to me, so I am havinga hard time keeping up with responding and finding the new ones. Steve M, or someone at MIA, do you know why the subscription feature didn’t work? It’s worked for me in the past.
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John, that’s cool. Have you made any videos or blogs yourself? That might be an avenue to get your story out. You could even submit to this very website.
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ConcernedCarer, that makes sense.
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Thank you eccentric. That makes sense. Would you clarify for me which parts you relate to and which feel alienating? My understanding is that as an atheist you don’t believe in a God or gods, though I still don’t know your belief system.
I think the term God means so many different things to different people and can be religious or just an overall sense that there is a force of good. Either way, I get that you don’t believe in it, but I am curious to know what that means to you.
Same with the word soul. What does it mean to you and what about it is alienating? Does it seem to be associated with a particular religious belief?
To me it is a sense of who I am beyond my body, so perhaps you don’t believe that we are anything beyond our bodies? I don’t know. Honestly, it’s like if someone tells me they have a certain diagnosis, I want to know what that means to them, even if I have stereotypes about what it may mean.
Perhaps I could have clarified in this piece what I meant by soul, and I wonder if that would have been more or less alienating to you and possibly others?
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Wow, thank you Alex! That’s a beautiful and moving reflection. Very validating to me and I appreciate it.
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John, again, I agree with you 1000%. There are already hundreds of thousands of people on psych drugs and many of them can’t get off when they try, even though they realize the diagnoses are not valid.
I think you are right though. Undiagnosing is a huge piece- especially in allocating funds towards resources for people in withdrawal. And of course for not getting people on in the first place.
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John, I completely agree with you. If you read any of my other articles you will see that. The purpose of this article and the ideas behind it, is to support people in freeing themselves from psychiatric drugs. I talk to people regularly who know everything you (and I ) are saying about the politics, but are still struggling immensely with psychiatric drugs withdrawal for years.
So there’s knowing what is going on and then what are we going to do about it? Many people have been made too sick by psychiatry to go out and try to change the system. They can barely get out of bed or even read/write. That’s where I was at too.
I completely agree with all of your points. You are preaching to the choir. If you read my other blogs you’ll understand where I’m coming from. I’ve been saying all the things you are writing here for almost 2 decades now.
But we need to also meet people where they are at, and offer practical steps to empowerment.
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Thanks ebl. And congrats!
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John,
You’re right. The quest for parental approval is so insidious. Have you read/watched any of Daniel Mackler’s work on breaking from parents?
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Thanks Steve S!
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ConcernedCarer, I pretty much agree with you. When I say “designed” I do not mean in a benevolent way. Yes, they were discovered, but then they were tweaked into their “medication” form. I don’t credit these drugs with anything helpful either.
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markps2 I agree. Though the ones marketed as medications are designed to make people feel better withinthe first few months so that they will stay on them, and stay straightjacketed, and more importantly so that they will appear to be “working” in drug trials.
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swarajit, sorry to hear things are so bad in India and that there isn’t much of a movement. Thanks for raising awareness over there!
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Thanks out. I think you are right. The drugging is a part of the picture of oppression, but not the whole thing. In some ways it is a big part because it does leave people so intensely vulnerable and out of control of their own body and mind. But then so do abuse and neglect in other ways.
I think in order to achieve freedom from psych drugs and overall integration, there are definitely bigger pictures of abuse that need to be considered. Everything is so interconnected.
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Vanilla, I think this is an excellent point. Also, everyone, please excuse my slow responses, as we are having a smoke storm here in the PNW and it’s been hard for me to think clearly…no comparison intended.
But, yeah, vanilla, I resonate with what you are saying. Even from a young age, the idea of a quick fix, or burying my emotions and problems with pills did not sound like a good idea to me. I personally was forced onto psych drugs and then was in withdrawal without knowing it and reluctantly went on more because I was in such extreme panic. Then I lost my will and ability to discern from the drugs, and ended up taking more “consensually”. But if someone spikes your drink and you then have consensual sex, it that truly consensual? Of course not.
So yeah, it’s tricky how to not blame people for all the circumstances that are out of their control while also offering a path with more integrity.
I personally am not telling anyone else what to do or assessing their behavior or choices, since I don’t see that as my role in other people’s lives. I would like to offer helpful support for those who want freedom from psychiatry. Those who WANT freedom is the key part.
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Thanks Dru <3
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rasselas, I’ve wondered about that as well, whether the drugs damaged my emotional range, even after all this time.
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Steve S. I think you’re right. Having lots of compassion for my parents as a child made it harder for me to detach. I think I felt I had to protect my younger sibling too. They were better at raging and seeing the family as crazy, while I was getting drained feeling compassion for everyone. Definitely took its toll.
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Well said Steve M. Thanks. It’s true that while we can understand it, working through it is more of a challenge.
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John, Yes there is a lot of scapegoating that happens.
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Thank you so much Hugh.
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Janehhhh, It was a local zine that doesn’t exist yet, so I’m sure you wouldn’t have heard of it. I’m not trying to demonize the people making this zine as I don’t know them at all. I might even like to get to know them, and know better their intentions.
I used this as an example, because it prompted these thoughts, but I’ve heard similar words so many times, that the zine person was just another person saying the same party lines as thousands of others.
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Thanks Ally. I see what you mean in a way, because sometimes when I have been abused by family members, or others, I have had a strong need to label them somehow. I often go to, “they are a bad person”, which is interesting because I never used to believe people could be inherently bad.
I still don’t actually believe that people are simply bad. Abusive people became that way for a multitude of reasons, yet sometimes I just want to call them bad, because they hurt me so much and analyzing “why” they did so puts me into empathy and considering their situation instead of my own. For me this is usually not healthy at all.
If I decide they are bad people, I can simply stay away from them and focus on bettering my own life, healing and not being abused anymore.
So I think there’s a time and place, especially for those who were conditioned to be empathic, to simply label another person. It doesn’t mean they necessarily have an intrinsic disorder or that it could never be reversed, but it can be a good protective instinct, and a reasonable prediction. People can change, I believe, but after a certain point, I’m not holding my breath, and if I were to do so, it would make ME crazy.
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Gabi and Julie, also I think it can sometimes be easier for someone who has less at stake to go along with someone’s story, versus their significant other or family member, who is probably tied into the whole drama much more. Even having an attachment to the outcome can be a hindrance in these circumstances.
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Julie, I remember when I was first in the hospital system many years ago (in 2001 to be exact), I told my friends that, “There’s this system,” and when they asked if I trusted my parents to help me, I said, “They’re part of the system.” To them I was psychotic, but when I look back now, I knew exactly what was going on. I knew there was a totally rigged system, and like I said, this was in 2001, before you could do real research on the internet, before anyone in my world (and most of the world) knew or talked about big pharma. It was when people still thought psych drugs were medicine,
Often the one we call psychotic is in some way ahead of the curve in their awareness.
It’s like that Shlomo Riskin Quote: “When you’re one step ahead of the crowd you’re a genius. When you’re two steps ahead, you’re a crackpot.”
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Lavendersage, I love this, and I do know people who do theater improv and who are much better than the average person at being with those in “altered states”.
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Well said Rachel.
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Excellent points Julie.
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Thanks Huami. Guess I’m preaching to the choir here. I thought I’d get some push back on this one.
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Rachel, definitely. They view marijuana as invading their turf too, and even herbs and supplements, trying to make them seem illegitimate or unscientific, when most of them are far more scientific and safe than their drugs.
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Thanks Stella. Thank you for sharing your story and what has helped you.
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Thanks Julie, good to know.
In emergencies, with people who have health challenges, psych drugs can also instantly kill them such as in this case:
http://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article198930799.html
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Thank you Ally! I’m curious, do you think the term neurodivergent is meaningful or accurate? To me it sounds like yet another euphemism, that may or may not mean anything in particular. Perhaps some people identify with it, but without a set standard for “normal” or “mentally healthy” I’m not sure how we can even know what neurodivergent is. And more importantly, I don’t want a standard for mentally healthy as I think it would severely limit creativity, connection and healing.
I totally agree with you about iatrogenesis and how little social support there is, how few people even know about it or understand it, even now.
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Internalized oppression.
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Hadn’t thought of that one Julie.
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Thanks Igor. I never felt good about that book. I heard rumors it was sponsored by pharma, like they paid her to write it, though I don’t know for sure. I wouldn’t be surprised though. Even the phrase “my drugs” or “my meds” bothers me because people identify with them as “theirs” which doesn’t seem healthy, like it creates an attachment.
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When I first was told about them in the 90s, it was always, “the medication”.
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Steve, yep. I’m glad more and more people are calling them drugs lately.
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Slaying the dragon, yes, you’re right. It’s still dishonest and misleading.
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Yes gabi, I agree and thanks for your comment. As far as we know all or almost all of the mass shooters in recent years were on psych drugs. CCHR has a list of all of them if you google it.
I do think in emergencies, drugs can be helpful, when taken as a one time thing, or maybe for a few days to help some one calm down or sleep if there’s an emergency need for sedation.
There may be herbs and less dangerous techniques that can work too. Recently a young woman in my town died of a chemical restraint, that was a benzo.
Some herbs are extremely calming and sedating, and safer than benzos. An expert herbalist would know more than me, even while I’ve been studying and using herbs for a long time. There are those who know more. Sometimes even good food can be enough to stop violent behavior. Common sense often goes out the window in emergency moments.
Here’s something I wrote with some alternatives:
https://chayagrossberg.com/alternatives-chemical-restraints/
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Well put Slaying the Dragon. Don’t you think the term “meds” came about with psychiatry because medicine is so obviously an inaccurate term? “Meds” is a euphemism, and feels a little less dishonest than medicine somehow.
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Yeah, we can say whatever we want but if the law disagrees we have a real issue. If “science” disagrees, we have a social issue because “science” is waaaaay more political than people would like to admit.
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Sticks and stones can break my bones but names will never hurt me… What we are inaccurately called only matters if it is then considered “science” or worse, law.
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Thank Steve! Good luck in speaking about it with others. Somehow facts seem less relevant in these conversations than they should be.
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Thanks Tom.
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Hmmm…are you threatened because you don’t take medicine?
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Lavendersage, thanks for your comment. Listening to our gut is so important in making medical decisions.
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Sylvain, thanks for your comment. I agree with you that people have a hard time being honest with themselves. On one hand I think you are right, that there is a personal responsibility that is being averted.
On the other hand, I don’t think people need to take total responsibility for everything in their lives OR put the responsibility on diagnoses and drugs if they are able to hold complexity. In fact, I think if people were able to accept that they don’t actually know why they lived, or the exact cause of their problems, and acknowledge that there were/are a bunch of different possibilities, explanations and forces at play, they might be able to find peace without dishonestly clinging to an unscientific or untrue explanation.
If it’s a choice between saying it’s all their responsibility or all a diagnosis and a drug, many people will choose a diagnosis drug…but if it’a also socioeconomics, trauma, mystery, fate, etc etc…then there doesn’t need to be one answer. To me that is more honest, and even more scientific.
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Thanks Fiachra. I’m glad you’re still alive to tell your story.
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This blog got quoted in one called “A Therapist Explains What Happens When People Try To Quit Psychiatric Meds”
Here are the links, if you want to see public comments or join in these conversations:
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/a-therapist-explains-what-happens-when-people-try-to-quit-psychiatric-meds_042018
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-06/therapist-explains-what-happens-when-people-try-quit-psychiatric-meds
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2018/04/04/therapist-explains-what-happens-when-people-try-to-quit-psychiatric-meds/
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Thanks Svava. Good to hear that you are interested in this. Keep us posted on your ideas.
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Thanks so much S_Randolph. I forgot to mention that I work with people all over the world. Almost all of my work is by phone or video chat. You can surely refer anyone to me from your local area or anywhere at all. That’s great that you work with folks as a lawyer and I will surely keep you in mind if anyone in the Chicago area reaches out to me.
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Thank you Camille. I hear you and know a lot of people in similar shoes. When you’ve been on the drugs for a long time sometimes it takes a lot more support and resources than most people have access to. Hopefully someday high quality detox centers will be freely available to all. Thanks for your comment.
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Thank you so much for your supportive comment JanCarol. Yes, there is lots of info online, both helpful and not, so I aim to help people find the best info for where they are currently at and inplement it in ways that are personally relevant. Thanks again and I’m glad you are helping people at survivingantidepressants. I often link to that site on my blog.
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Hi Rachel, I do think I could help you find ways to absorb nutrients. There are a lot of alternatives to supplements in liquid, herbal and/or food based forms that we could talk about. I wish you the best! Molasses is a good idea from Steve and if you take it with vitamin c rich foods such as fruit or lemon juice, the iron will be better absorbed. I have a lot of other ideas for you for when we talk.
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Hi Rachel, I’m sorry to hear this. It can take awhile to recover from all of this. Where are you located? Are you taking any supplements for the anemia?
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Yes I am tinabud. Thanks.
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Seriously. Thanks Steve <3
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Thanks so much Alex.
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Thanks Fiachra. I think you’re right.
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Tireless fighter, I get your point and it has some validity. Yet, if you look for everything to be “therapy, healing, life coaching and motivationalism” you can make any simple human act of striving to survive or live well into your idea of a demon.
People are doing their best and sometimes have the time/energy/resources to fight and other times are doing what they can to survive and live their lives the best way they can.
As Steve said, living well is the best revenge. Your point that taking action is necessary is valid though.
I do appreciate where you are coming from, and agree that systemic injustice is at the root of it all and denying that will not “heal” anything. So thanks for your relentless belaboring of this point.
It was also the direction of this article, which had nothing to do with therapy, life coaches etc etc. but rather acknowledging the injustice and addressing it.
We likely have different strategies, since I don’t tend to believe in violent retaliation, though many have the impulse for revenge.
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Thanks Steve. You say this well and I completely agree. Some very powerful people like Oprah Winfrey come from abusive childhoods/backgrounds.
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Hi Tirelessfighter. I disagree. Hitting children is commonplace and most people do not end up enforced by the law since hitting children is legal as long as it isn’t “severe” or leaving heavy bruises.
Are you saying well off educated people don’t hit children? That is simply not true.
It seems you didn’t read what I wrote about healing coming from NOT continuing to live in denial. That was the whole point.
Saying someone is completely off base and then not referring to what was actually written here isn’t helpful.
I agree with some of what you say at the end here about choosing not to collaborate with perpetrators…but that is not contradictory to what I wrote.
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Definitely a sign you’re onto something.
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Yetanotheraccount, thanks for your point about NAMI.
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Thanks Steve. Totally agree and well said. Yes, social and familial abuse go hand and hand. I read something really good about that recently that I will need to send you. It was about how Hitler was so severely abused and treated as subhuman by his family. It talked about how we often replicate the abuse we experience in our families and then expect/accept that treatment from society (or perpetuate it, depending on the level of socioeconomic power).
A lot of survivors of abuse in childhood go on to have abusive conditions at their jobs, but it just seems normal or comfortable as that was all they/we knew.
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Hi Fred,
That quote is a perfect example of why no one can be outcast as fundamentally “psychiatrically or psychologically ill”. How could any soul be a mistake that needs to be permanently drugged into compliance?
Thanks for checking out my work. I appreciate your recognition.
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Thanks someoneelse. Well put.
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That must have been scary yetanotheraccount.
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