“Did Antidepressant Play a Role in Navy Yard Massacre?”

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John Horgan of Scientific American writes “Once again, antidepressants have been linked to an episode of horrific violence. The New York Times reports that Aaron Alexis, who allegedly shot 12 people to death at a Navy facility in Washington, D.C., earlier this week, received a prescription for the antidepressant trazodone in August… A website maintained by the National Institutes of Health states that trazodone and other antidepressants have been associated with “new or worsening depression; thinking about harming or killing yourself, or planning or trying to do so; extreme worry; agitation; panic attacks; difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep; aggressive behavior; irritability; acting without thinking; severe restlessness; and frenzied abnormal excitement.”

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56 COMMENTS

  1. I don’t think the connection between psychiatric drugs and these mass shootings can be ignored by the mainstream much longer. Of course it keeps happening when the status quo in “help” is to label and then medicate emotionally distraught people with these mind altering drugs with unpredictable effects that can include akathisia, rage, delusions and disassociation.

    • DK,As a dissident psychologist and critic of psychiatric drugs I agree with you. Breggin, Healy and Dr Tracy Blake have nailed the SSRIs. However the evidence here was scant –and I’d be more suspicious if the drug were a genuine SSRI. However after speaking against Psychiatry on a radio show I was contacted a few weeks by victims of government mind control. I thought MK-Ultra had ended long ago
      but it hasn’t–or it has in name only. It is not mentioned in the anti-psychiatric community but this case is remarkable. Alexis clearly believed
      he was a victim of government mind control technology which is far more developed than most people are aware. Here are the facts as presented by a knowledgeable journalist
      http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/09/23/navy-yard-gunman-stalked-tortured-induced-to-kill/
      Here is URL for group: http://www.freedomfchs.com
      I thought the previous two cases in Colorado were suspicious anyway but I was not aware of the technology.
      Seth Farber, Ph.D.
      http://www.sethHfarber.com

      • re: the article from veteranstoday.com

        I have so much to say that I actually can’t communicate it. It would come out as an “explosion” of “soul puking” and would appear to be very disorganized and incoherent.

        But with great ease, I say this: I had the voice to skull and when they began chasing me, I crashed on the highway and set myself on fire.

        It is a very sick world (and they DO know that what they’re doing is sadistic, sinister and evil).

      • I agree, this might not be the best example where the drugs are clearly implicated. I’d rather have seen them investigate Adam Lanza’s case, or the Batman shooter in Colorado, or the V Tech shooting, among many others. Still, it’s good to see someone looking into it. Maybe a one of us with some “authority” (namely the right letters after his/her name) can suggest to the good congressman that this is not an isolated incident, and he ought to broaden his investigation.

        Still, we don’t know that he wasn’t taking other stuff, nor do we know if he was taking more of the Trazadone than recommended for sleep. The tricyclics have been known to cause manic episodes, as they do mess with serotonin, just not as much as the SSRIs.

        —- Steve

      • Seth, do you actually endorse that article from Veterans Today? That publication has been criticized by civil rights organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League for being extremist and anti-semitic. Veterans Today is run (edited, chaired) by a dude who thinks that Jewish conspiracy was the cause of 9/11, Sandy Hook, Wikileaks, AND the Aurora and Tuscon shootings (etc). So basically anything bad ever is caused by a vast conspiracy of bad jewish people. He is also into Holocaust denial…. because, y’know, he’s a freakin’ anti-semite & conspiracy theorist.

        I’m not saying that I do not believe it is possible that Alexis was actually being targeted by someone trying to stalk/ torture him, but I read that article & it is sketchy at best.

        For example, the article says:
        “specific targets can be tracked continuously. For example, “if you want to cause a specific psychiatric illness, you would have an infrared device that followed the person and you would link it to a pencil thin microwave source, so the microwave beam would always target a specific gland or a specific part of the brain, or an eye or the heart.””

        But all of us here at MiA know that there is no specific part of the brain, nor any gland, that causes mental illness. The brain is so much more nuanced and subtle than that. You can’t just target “rays” or microwaves at a single area of the head and cause pre-determined complex, coordinated behaviors imbued with the idiosyncratic and specific meanings that always inhere in an individual person’s mind & behavior. …Duh?

        Seth I respect you but this is bunk & we dont need this crap to effectively call out the BS of the mainstream discourse on mental illness and gun control / mass shootings.

        • Yes I noticed some of the other articles were anti-Semitic. This was the best article I’ve seen taking the position that Alexis was subject to mind control. There is nothing offensive about this article. The fact that it appeared in an often reactionary magazine is no reason not to read the article.

          The quote to which you object is not by a psychiatrist but by an expert in micro-wave technology. I’m sure he did not intend to bolster psychiatry. If he did he would not have referred to the heart or the eye. I think his point was probably that by focusing on one point, one gland, you create maximum trauma, which is often the point.It is a fact that they can use “voice to skull” technology to deliver specific messages that sound as if they are said by voices in the head. The technology is discussed in books by John Hall (Satellite Technology) Robert Duncan(Project:Soul Catcher Vol 2) and Colin Ross(The CIA Doctors: Human Rights Violation by American Psychiatrists).

          I was contacted by one of the groups of targeted individuals after I did a radio show: Freedom from Covert Harassment and Surveillance.
          A large percentage of the members are black. Their agenda is not reactionary. To the contrary they are one of the few groups who do not believe the propaganda of “the war on terrorism.”

          Meremortal I don’t know what the government intends to do with this technology. I only know they are obsessed with surveillance and control and that the US is becoming a giant Panopticon.It’s beyond
          Foucault’s imagination.
          And I know the government does use the American population as guinea pigs to test out this new technology. They did it during MK-Ultra. The involuntary administration of dangerous substances to members of the American public particularly those in the military without their knowledge is as American as apple pie.

          Targeted person probably constitute only a small percentage of those who are psychiatrically labeled but do you really believe the official story about James Holmes(the Batman shooter) and Adam Lanza?

          You write,”we dont need this crap to effectively call out the BS of the mainstream discourse on mental illness” as if “what we need” was the relevant criteria. It is true that many people would not be able to accept this. But the relevant criteria is what is true. And it is true that there may be up to half a million person who are subjected to mind control experiments.
          Seth Farber, PhD.

          • My uncle was one of those guys who carried information for the U.S. government in one of those metal briefcases handcuffed to his write. He was ordered to shoot his own mother dead if she ever tried to even touch that damned case. He confirmed, years later when he would get very drunk, that the government is testing all kinds of things on the American public and it’s all secretive and hush hush.

            Our government is just like all the other governments that we’ve stigmatized and made into boogy men as the “evil empire,” but they’re much more subtle about how they ago about doing things. And of course, the American public denies that anything like this is going on at all. I remember when the Army finally admitted that they were testing LSD out on soldiers without the knowledge of the soldiers themselves.

            Also, Dr. Peter Breggin and others were instrumental in exposing a plan by the government to drug inner city African American kids under the guise of some plan to reduce crime. They were going to drug them with psych drugs. I forget what the name of that horrendous program is but they were going to try it. Also, in the 1970’s large numbers of angry, young, African American men found themselves locked up in psych hospitals. This didn’t happen by accident but was the beginning of our government’s response to the two young African American athletes who raised their gloved and clenched fists in the air as they stood on the winners podium at the Mexico City Olympics.

            One really has to wonder what’s going on when we now hear of mass shootings taking place throughtout our country on a daily basis. When I was a kid this didn’t happen, period. Now it happens every day.

          • Stephen You mean the Violence Initiative in early 90s–Fred Goodwin, head of NIMH. I was friendly with Breggin then and helped to expose the VI to black community here in NYC. It generated lots of opposition. It seems Clinton did not like the idea since Goodwin left when Clinton got into office. Now they just drug blacks in schools and foster care (and prisons) and don’t advertize it.
            There was an article about Alexis in the NYT today–they found papers in which he claimed Navy was subjecting him to mind control.
            What makes this credible is that he accurately described the kind of technology
            that is used–has been used to experiment on people. Of course no one will believe him because that is “paranoid.” For years the intelligence agencies have been obsessed with creating a “Manchurian candidate.”
            Seth Farber, PhD

          • Thanks for your reply.

            I agree that the article in question isn’t itself anti-semitic, but it is most certainly part of a conspiracy theory. Now, certainly conspiracies exist so we can’t dismiss something based merely on the fact that it is one. but not all conspiracy theories are worth our time or have any truth value (or, perhaps, distort what grains of truth they do have in a way that is so gross as to be tantamount to having no truth).

            The structure of a conspiracy theory is generally such that we– since we do not have direct access to the evidence regarding top secret military matters, etc.– have at some point to trust the authority and judgment of the person/people putting forward the theory. We have to trust their judgment on a number of levels, and in general it seems to me on the face of it to be unwise to trust the judgment of those whose worldviews are built on a belief in conspiracy theories that we KNOW (with as much certainty as anyone can know anything in this realm, I suppose) are false & who have a personal and class-based interest in supporting current structures of social and political domination (e.g. racism, reactionary populism). Perhaps with a different sort of theorizing or context of argumentation, such thing would be irrelevant (e.g. 2 + 2 = 4 whether the person arguing so is a racist conspiracy nut or not)… but the very structure of conspiracy theories guarantees that matters of JUDGMENT, worldview, and politics– and our need to put some degree of blind trust in the author(s)– will always be at play.

            I do agree with you that America is obsessed with surveillance and control, although from what I have gathered so far the common patterns in these “covert harassment and surveillance” narratives do not really follow a particularly Foucaultian pattern. In fact, if we are speaking of Foucaultian patterns, psychiatry would be a much more relevant story than convert harassment.

            As someone mentioned down-thread, there is a certain tension between these two accounts of power: the covert harrassment account actually contradicts a lot of what we know and have spent so much energy in the movement to articulate and research. That is a problem. It isn’t indissoluble, and if these two forms of power are indeed co-existing, that is fine. However, we need to beware the way that people’s knee jerk reaction to say without regard to specific evidence about that exact case that “there is nothing at all emotionally extreme going on with people who believe they are being covertly surveilled– they are right.” We don’t know that they are right and we have just, in a knee-jerk reaction, dismissed the possibility that they are undergoing an extreme emotional process. Do you see that?

            I admit that it is a logical as well as actual possibility that any given person accused of “paranoia” or any other form of emotional distress is in fact totally and utterly well adjusted, and is actually simply being disbelieved because the reality is so strange as to seem on the face of it “crazy.” But that is only ONE possibility. It is also possible that people can be “deluded” or “paranoid.” That isn’t an insult. It isn’t a psychiatric myth. Some times some people are truly out of touch with reality. And, as that same down-thread person said, we need to admit that this is likely the vast majority of cases.

            The one detail that makes this seem like it might not be one of the general majority of cases is that this person was in the military. I don’t know if that to me says that he was more or less likely to be targeted. It does seem, though, that it might suggest something out of the ordinary… compared with, say, your average 26 year old kid going off his head in college after a lifetime spent in a totally unremarkable, but probably abusive, family in middle america.

            Do I do really believe the official story about James Holmes(the Batman shooter) and Adam Lanza? I dont know. But I do know that motive is crucial to any argument about something like this. What motive would someone have had to surveill or harrass adam lanza or james holmes? I don’t know, but if you want me to believe that they were surveilled or harrassed by the FBI, I’m going to need an answer to that question.

        • Mere Mortal
          I answered your questions in my reply below to NI.
          As to your question on who–by far the most likely are persons in military followed by persons with a psych history, for obvious reasons.
          See below.
          Both MJK andi gave you the resources. You write
          “What motive would someone have had to surveill or harrass adam lanza or james holmes? I don’t know, but if you want me to believe that they were surveilled or harrassed by the FBI, I’m going to need an answer to that question.” You are going to have to do some homework then. I picked this all up in the last 6 weeks. There are
          just a few books you could read that would give you a good overview. If you think the sanity of the persons in intelligence, or rogue elements,is greater than that of DR Mengele than you’ll never understand. Ten thousand Nazi scientist were secretly recruited by the CIA underb Operation Paperclip and put to work for US government–American intelligence. I argued in my latest book that–as Laing said–normal society is insane. It is the logic of to quote one American soldier in Vietnam, “We had to destroy the village in order to save it.” I admit
          although I knew they were ready to do this to the
          the foreigner, I was not aware of the extent to which the guinea pigs for the development of “knowledge”- in the Foucauldian sense–that enabled US intelligence to pursue its goal of mastery were American citizens.
          If you want to understand the motive you have to read the literature–you have to see what was done.This is not new: 200,000 soldiers were deliberately exposed to radiation, in MK Ultra they were given LSD w/o their knowledge.It should remain ultimately incomprehensible since evil remains opaque.

  2. DruggedKid,

    The only information reported is that Alexis received Trazadone for insomnia and did not receive meds for any other condition. Of course, as we all know, that may not mean anything but we have to go on what has been covered.

    Anyway, it sounds like he chose meds as treatment for his insomnia and was not forced to take the meds against his will. It seems like he reached a point where the insomnia was impacting his life so much he was willing to take the risks of the meds.

    Now whether Trazadone caused the side effects which led him to shoot all those people, I am not convinced it was the meds since he had a history of several incidents before taking the drugs. I do think it is reasonable to wonder if the drugs could have pushed him over the edge.

    Just so folks know who aren’t familiar with my posts or philosophy, I definitely feel that drugs can cause people to commit homicide who wouldn’t have if they didn’t take the meds. But I think in order for us to not sound like the folks who believe that drugs can never have these side effects, we have to be very careful about not automatically blaming the meds for every homicide. Our credibility depends on this.

    • Agreed. We have to investigate each and every case before we can state that the situation was caused by the drugs people were on Trazadone is actually an old so-called “antidepressant,” one of the first to be used. I’ve not read or heard anything about how it affects people. Today it’s used as a sleep aid more than anything else. I took it for a little while but it didn’t do anything to help. It’s also a dangerous drug because you can overdose on it. I’m surprised that it’s used at all these days.

      • I feel my first sleep doctor tried to bully me into taking it. I refused since I had had adverse effects when I took it several years ago. It also causes severe nasal congestion which would not be a good thing since I already have that issue in addition to sleep apnea.

  3. Psychiatric drugs caused me to have akathisia, rage, delusions and disassociation. I did the whole psycho barricade thing. It wasn’t much fun being on suicide watch in the jail looking at years in the place cause of my charges scared out of my mind, wile having to read the newspaper article that destroyed me and my families reputation by it’s stating that my “mental illness” was to blame for the whole indecent. and neither was spending months in the psych hospital taking more of the offending drugs wile the psychiatrist blamed everything on my beer drinking habit.

    Then I to do years on probation and have a criminal record now cause of the psychiatric poisons effects on me, that sucks too.

    I just know these drugs that alter thought mood and behavior play a part in many of these shootings. I’m not sitting here with a tin foil hat on my head.

  4. Regarding Trazodone, there’s a fair list of possible adverse effects on Rx list which could explain his behavior:

    http://www.rxlist.com/desyrel-drug/side-effects-interactions.htm

    Of note are reports of agitation, akathisia, hallucinations, abnormal dreams, hypomania. On the page after the one in the link there’s a fairly bold caution about giving it to people who are supposedly bipolar, as it might unmask mania. The standard cover-up for iatrogenic issues.

    And not that this is directly relevant, but as an FYI to men reading here who might be taking it: It says on that page it can cause priapism, which can eventually lead to permanent impotence via surgery.

  5. From severe mental illness to gang stalking, targeted individuals, energy weapons, MK Ultra and “aliens” (of which I am experienced), there is certainly something happening.

    Video of Dr. Karla Turner (exposing alien greys)
    http://youtu.be/jKbOpTMmnNg

    Very interesting page from Jeff Polachek
    http://www.jeffpolachek.com/weaponized-psychiatry

    (I should mention – helicopters were in my area the day before the Adam Lanza event. Newtown is the next town over from me, I live 10 miles from the school. I was in severe, extreme agitation and the evidence of my agitation is recorded on the internet. I also mentioned the helicopters in my online screaming fit).

    • Oh yeah, and I had a “staged” event in May of this year and what’s really, really interesting about it is how I “authored” it the day before it happened. I have a lot of experience with writing, journaling and *plenty* of it is “channeling” where I am not the author. It’s like I’m taking dictation. What I specifically wrote is, “this is being staged” and what happened the next day (so strange) played out LITERALLY in front of a stage.

      This is a picture of the EXACT stage where this penned event took place.

      http://www.lookingforadventure.com/photopages/DANBURYGAS.htm

      I actually dressed myself in a “costume” before I left my house and took the one hour walk to the city next door. When I left the house and got to the train tracks, police sirens started going off like crazy. But when I got to Danbury, the people there called the police but they did not respond and they never showed up.

      This is EXTREMELY complicated stuff.

      • Well now, that’s interesting!

        mjk just got home from the store. Tiffany? Is that you? Was that you standing on the sidewalk, in front of the house next door to mine? Standing with some young man, a space of distance between the two of you – both of you silent, not speaking a word. Whatcha doin’ in Bethel?

        I’ll be without conviction that it was you. I’ll remain doubtful and skeptic. But I will stand firm in asserting that the young woman I just walked past on my way home from the store looks a whole lot like Tiffany.

        Enjoy your Friday night, people of Danbury and people of the World. Stay sober. Stay clean. Stay honest and true. ‘kay? ‘kay.

        The BIG Mouth has spoken. You’re welcome.

        🙂

  6. @Seth

    Thanks for responding and giving the name of the Violence Initiative. Yes, now they drug African American kids in numerous other ways. And the War on Drugs is nothing more than a war on the African American community. Why is it that drugs are even more destructive today than they were before the War on
    Drugs started? Actually it seems like there’s an all out war against poor people in general in this country. Just look what a certain group in our dear and wonderful Congress has done with the SNAP program and food stamps. It’s really despicable.

    I have no problem believing that Alexis was being subjected to some kind of secret experiment. But as you say, everyone will dismiss this as sheer “paranoia” on the part of a “severely mentally ill” person. The CIA, FBI, and the National Security Council are not friends of the American people.

    • Hi Stephen,

      As one who greatly respects what you have to say, I am really concerned that if we speculate about what Alexis was subjected to without any evidence to back us up, we are no better than Fuller Torrey who is greatly reckless about the facts. When we do this, it greatly lessens our credibility in my opinion.

      • I think every person that speaks in this video is quite credible.

        http://youtu.be/BnqMo7z4nJY?t=9m22s

        Dr. John Hall, a physician from Texas, says “we are seeing an alarming rate of complaints of use of electromagnetic weapons, microwave auditory effects, silent sound spectrum … seems to be more weapons research than medical research … upwards of 1,500 victims all complaining of identical complaints from every state in the nation, being exposed to electromagnetic radiation … for the use of cognitive control or behavioral control.”

        In Aaron’s case, he complained of that exact, precise scenario: some “vibrations” and voices that were keeping him from sleeping.

        I’m one of those people who figures the psych drugs are THE AGENTS that give the electromagnetic access for remote neural processing. Insofar, that’s just my hunch. I think these psych drugs have altered brain structures in such a way as to make people electromagnetically susceptible. I don’t know how else they have access for VOICE TO SKULL “therapy” (they just called it “therapy”).

        It ISN’T therapy – we’re not stupid. It is MENTAL INVASION, MIND CONTROL, TORTURE and it is sadistic, criminal and outright evil.

        YOU PEOPLE may think your technology is good. WE DON’T.

        See? Just happened. I could edit and NOT share it publicly. But I’m not going to do that. An energy in my right hemisphere accompanied by a female “voice” that spoke INSISTENTLY, stating that it’s “therapy”.

        YOU WISH people would consider it “therapy”. It isn’t, it never will be – it is a VIOLATION OF PEOPLE’S MINDS, PRIVACY, PERSONAL SPACE, RIGHTS AND EVERY OTHER ELEMENT AND ASPECT OF HUMANITY.

        YOU’LL NEVER, EVER BE JUSTIFIED IN WHAT YOU’VE DONE. EVER.

        That’s me, talking directly to *the entire world* – including government, scientists, doctors, aliens, devils, demons, angels, gods – all human beings and all non-human entities.

  7. I think it is highly irresponsible and dangerous to promote the idea that people who are in the throes of the kinds of experiences referred to in psychiatry as delusions and hallucinations are not experiencing paranoia or perceiving the world in an objectively inaccurate, way but have been subjected to mind control. To me the possibility that violence perpetrated by Lanza, Alexis and others is influenced by the side-effects of psychiatric drugs is a real one. But the idea that people who believe the government is controlling their minds are not experiencing paranoia or other sensory distortion is not credible, at least in the vast, vast majority of cases. Beliefs about the CIA or other clandestine government and other operatives engaging in mind control experiments is very common among people experiencing (lets call it) psychosis. I am someone who had those beliefs, and they were assuredly, and without any question, false. Even were it so that such technology exists — and I cannot discount that possibility lacking similarly uncontrovertable evidence to the contrary — it cannot possibly influence nearly all cases. To suggest to someone experiencing paranoia of this variation that their beliefs are true is simply harmful to that person and contrary to the harm reduction ethos of this cause, because the person will be less likely to seek the help they otherwise might want (whether via Open Dialogue or any other treatment approach). Activists seeking the elimination or even the reduction of psychiatric drugs diminish their effectiveness and credibility when making these claims.

  8. My quarrel is not with claims that such technology may exist, or with ideas about the capacity of the United States to act in diabolical ways. Let’s assume that some people who believe they are being persecuted by clandestine government forces who have used mind control technology are correct in their beliefs. There are millions of people around the globe who harbor such beliefs while exhibiting other signs of experiencing distinct, identifiable mind states that about which there is wide consensus on this site. Consensus that the mind states often call for a form of treatment, ideally perhaps Open Dialogue. How many of those millions should we believe are among those being persecuted? If any, it must be a tiny fraction. If this is so, then it is extremely dangerous to tell the 99+% of people in those mind states that their beliefs about persecution are true? Do you not see the consequences of being wrong about that? Should those people be encouraged to remain in their extreme states of stress rather than to attempt to resolve the personal crisis they are undergoing? Let’s also assume that none of these people should be medicated. Isn’t it against the self-interest of this individual and of this important cause not to support that individual’s need to undergo the cathartic self-adjustment that the beliefs evidence is urgently needed (as there also seems to be a wide consensus on this site is the process at play)? Isn’t even the suggestion on a site like this, where people in or familiar with these mind states congregate, that these beliefs are true, wrongminded? It would not be, only if it’s more likely than not — at minimum — that the individual’s beliefs are true. General beliefs (even knowledge) regarding the capabilities of government, or even knowledge of specific examples of such occurrences, do not even remotely justify this behavior. The inattention paid to the specific circumstances of real people — the vast vast majority of people harboring these beliefs — while enlisting their stories in support of a general idea or to corroborate an individual experiences, is truly irresponsible. This critique comes from a place of concern, and is grounded in personal experience.

    • I’m going to be honest with you (PLEASE don’t feel offended).

      For me, what I’ve just read is overly verbose and incomprehensible. For the most part, I can’t respond thoroughly without doing a lot of work to break it down to digest the intake. Don’t feel bad – I abuse the crap out of punctuation and I don’t doubt that it drives some people bonkers with frustration.

      I’m going to isolate this sentence:

      “Isn’t even the suggestion on a site like this, where people in or familiar with these mind states congregate, that these beliefs are true, wrongminded?”

      Do I think the “suggestion” of … mind control … is wrong-minded? Absolutely not.

      Take a look at the link I shared from Jeff Polachek (weaponized psychiatry). Guess who’s work he cites? Robert Whitaker. Guess who else’s work he cites? Dr. Breggin.

      He cites the work of these two people on a WEAPONIZED PSYCHIATRY webpage. Are you going to tell Jeff that he’s wrong-minded and full of wrong beliefs? What “help” does Jeff need, “help” to stop believing what he does? Any idea how many people already believe exactly what Jeff believes? Should his webpage be censored, taken down? Just like they’re doing in the UK with Spiritual websites? Hmm. That CENSORSHIP is reality, N.I.

      To censor Spiritual (which, the word spiritual is almost synonymous with the word belief) websites is evidence, to me, that there is ABSOLUTE mind control happening. WHY would anybody want to censor Spiritual information? Is it because they think Spirituality is “mental illness”? Hmm. Real interesting, isn’t it.

      What would be such a HARROWING mistake is to deny the reality of people who ARE caught up in this mental warfare (which DOES include psychiatry).

      And I’ll finish by asking: Will Magenta Pixie also be censored? She channels the “White Winged Consciousness of Nine”. Is she “mentally ill” and in serious need of help?

      I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: these issues are EXTREMELY complex.

      With 100% of my entire being, I absolutely believe in totality …

      it is a sick world.

    • First of all N. I. makes 2 claims. The first one must be addressed first. (MJK and I mostly agree but I don’t know why MJK implies he/she is perfect and could never be mistaken.) NI writes:
      “I think it is highly irresponsible and dangerous to promote the idea that people who are in the throes of the kinds of experiences referred to in psychiatry as delusions and hallucinations are not experiencing paranoia or perceiving the world in an objectively inaccurate, way but have been subjected to mind control…vertable evidence to the contrary — it cannot possibly influence nearly all cases. To suggest to someone experiencing paranoia of this variation that their beliefs are true is simply harmful to that person and contrary to the harm reduction ethos of this cause…” First of all who ever said anything about “suggesting the idea” or “promoting the idea”? As a therapist for several decades consulted by many so called psychotic people I have learned that the most harmful thing I can do is to impose my beliefs upon them. I DO tell them right away that I do not believe in “mental illness.” If they don’t like that belief I can’t help them. But if they tell me the CIA is persecuting them even if I do not believe it–unless they are soliciting my opinion–it would be an act of extreme insensitivity, even of emotional abuse, for me to tell them they are wrong.I don’t agree with you that I ought to convey to them that they are”paranoid.” There is one woman who has been emotionally abused all her life by the Catholic Church. She was molested at one point. I do not know how she got in the space she is now at, and I would like to see her give up the idea that the Church has been poisoning her food (just enough to keep her physically ill), listening to her conversations, sabotaging her relationships.threatening to murder her..but I can’t.She is an interesting person, looks completely “normal” not at all eccentric; 20 years ago this woman was a therapist, she still looks like an upper middle class conventional elderly person of 75, she discusses with me a variety of books she reads in the half way where she resides–she tends to lean toward New Age.She has no one to talk to at her residence as most are uneducated. Her children cannot accept Sally’s (pseudonym) beliefs so they minimize the time they spend with her (she particularly misses her grandchildren). I cannot undermine this belief system. I am the only person she can talk the “truth” to who accepts what she says–anything else–any hint of skepticism– she experiences as a kind of psychological rape. Metaphorically there is truth to her “delusions” but I could not say that to her without her feeling deeply betrayed.She has left other therapists who challenged her beliefs. I know what I’m doing is right. If I thought she really wanted to know my opinion
      I would be happy to tell her. But my purpose– is to accept her boundaries–unlike her Catholic parents, Catholic ex-husband and Catholic adult children who sided with their father– by accepting her story even though it keeps her in a rut.

      So N.I. before you start making these accusations against me I think you’d better consider how the woman I described feels. Many people do not want a therapist to help them figure out the world. In a world that is against them they need to feel that at least one person is on their side.I also knew years ago a survivor–call her X– who thought she was targeted by the CIA. She was a friend. I had not read the literature then but
      even if I had I would have been skeptical. But she did not ask my opinion. Today in the Internet age there is a support group for targeted individuals, there are various things they can do to help themselves–it’s very empowering. If an individual is really targeted then they can be helped by these groups. Now what if X had not been targeted? What is like Sally her story about the CIA had only a metaphorical truth. If she asked me obviously I would tell her that. If she did not want to hear that I would tell her about the self-help groups for targeted persons. The irony is by enabling people to feel less helpless, they empower even persons who are deluded (not real targets)
      and make them feel less helpless.
      But I am not practicing therapy here so I can speak honestly about what I believe.I
      was consulted after I did a radio show 6 weeks ago by targeted
      persons. I talked to many–6–of them and believed them. Unlike NI
      I investigated the literature.I strongly recommend The CIA Doctors: Human Rights Violations by American Psychiatrists by Colin Ross as well as the Robert Duncan and John Hall book.(All of these books are written by scholars, not by professional “conspiracy theorists.”) I already knew that during MK-Ultra
      at least 100s of Americans and Canadians were subjected unknowingly and without their permission to mind control experiments. Germans were hung at Nuremberg for the kind of experiments done–without the subject’s knowledge or permission– by Dr Ewen Cameron and others.Cameron’s experiments–involving mega-electroshock and unwitting administration of LSD– destroyed the targets.Others were left with PTSD after having LSD slipped into their coffee.Frank Olson did NOT commit suicide. As his son discovered–after exhuming his body– he was assassinated. Why? He was planning to resign in protest. Now anyone who does the research and looks at the materials recommended by mjk or me can see that these experiments did not cease. They now use technology
      that is capable of creating the sound of voices in the brain/ Anyone who is really interested should contact these targeted persons at http://www.freedomfchs.com

      AS a therapist my position has to be different from my position as a writer, a social critic and activist. NI writes “Isn’t even the suggestion on a site like this, where people in or familiar with these mind states congregate, that these beliefs are true, wrongminded?” Of course it is not “wrongminded.” How could the truth be wrongminded. As stated above there are people more afraid
      of the idea that they are not being harassed by the CIA than by the idea that they are–even if they’re not.

      To say it is wrong to discuss the existence of this phenomenon reminds me of NAMI. You are introducing the very distinction between the so called mentally ill (or however you call them) and so called normal people that Szasz spent his life fighting.Are you going to keep these people from reading the newspapers or searching the Internet? AS mjk said, “What would be such a HARROWING mistake is to deny the reality of people who ARE caught up in this mental warfare (which DOES include psychiatry).”

      Someone asked who is selected. People are selected at random but they tend to be from preponderantly from certain groups–those in the military, those in prison and those with psychiatric histories. The reason for the latter is obvious: No matter how convincing their evidence, who would believe them??
      (To say the handlers target psych survivors is not to deny, as you state, N. I., that they are still a minority–which is a fact that every reader should keep in mind.)Only the subject knows–on some deeper level– if she is a target. Only she knows when it is right to adhere to the idea and when it is right to give it up.If they do not want your opinion you are not doing them a favor by imposing it. On the other hand it IS your responsibility on a public forum to expose the truth, not to censor it in the name of mental health.

      I have proposed in my book an idea that is no longer popular, that is in fact disparaged by those in the Icarus Project who first proposed it in 2005–that the mad are uniquely suited to make an unusually significant contribution to saving the world–to saving it from “normal” people. That is that they need to take on far more responsibility not less.
      Seth Farber, Ph.D.
      http://www.sethHfarber.com

      • I certainly *didn’t* imply anything and I never do. I’m so bold and direct, I come straight out with exactly what I think, feel and know. I’m clear, blunt, direct, specific, forthright, forthcoming, to the point …

        And NO, I am NOT mistaken. At all.

        It is a FACT that the “U.S. Coast Guard” approached me.

        It is a FACT that the “U.S. Marshall / Secret Service” approached me.

        It is a FACT that somebody was chasing me.

        It is a FACT that I self-immolated.

        These are all ABSOLUTE TRUE FACTS, not to be denied or dismissed or charged as “mental illness”. They’re FACTS. They’re REALITY. They happened.

        Jesus Christ, it’s clear as day.

  9. From meremortal’s response to Seth

    “What motive would someone have had to surveill or harrass adam lanza or james holmes? I don’t know, but if you want me to believe that they were surveilled or harrassed by the FBI, I’m going to need an answer to that question.”

    I’ll tell you MY TRUTH.

    The U.S. Coast Guard approached me *AND* a man who presented himself as BOTH a U.S. Marshall / Secret Service agent approached me.

    That is the absolute 100% Truth (with a SOLID capital T).

    Now, WHY ME?

    Let me tell you something. *ANYTHING* that comes out of my mouth (or in this case, comes off of my fingertips) is the *absolute* Truth.

    To say that something is an “error of my perceptions” and that what I experienced “wasn’t real” and “didn’t happen” would be MENTAL ASSAULT and MENTAL ATTACK. Understand?

    It would be an act of WAR to dismiss, ignore or disbelieve WHAT I SAY. It would be an act of WAR to accuse me, assault my mind, insult my intelligence or treat me like an idiot or a “crazy” person.

    U.S. Coast Guard *AND* “U.S. Marshall” / “Secret Service”

    Since YOU (the reader) KNOW that THE ACTUAL, LITERAL, ABSOLUTE TRUTH has just been communicated, WHY mjk???

    Because I am fking AWESOME, that’s why.

    • you’re “awesome?” Was Adam Lanza “awesome,” too? James Holmes and Alexis were just really “awesome” dudes, too?

      I don’t get what you’re trying to communicate with this, but if it is that you believe that you are so superior in intelligence / personal charisma to the rest of humanity that the FBI just had to have you, I’m really not inclined to find that persuasive.

      I do believe that you were approached by who you say you were. I’m not trying to discredit your story or the possibility that some people are harassed by the FBI. I’m simply saying that we need ways to evaluate the proposition, in any SPECIFIC case, that a SPECIFIC person was harassed by the FBI. motive is part of that.

      • What if I AM of superior intelligence? Why does that seem to be a problem for you? Do you think I’m not allowed or not entitled to be an intelligent person, and that I need to be stripped of it or maybe even punished for it? Why does it seem to be offensive to you if I have a unique, distinct intelligence? Should I just put on my mental illness hat, be a retard and an idiot – just so you won’t feel the BLINDING SHINE of my BRIGHTNESS?

        “I’m simply saying that we need ways to evaluate the proposition, in any SPECIFIC case, that a SPECIFIC person was harassed by the FBI … ”

        Who is we?

        So, ANYWAY

        meremortal, have you read how I self-immolated? I’ve mentioned it a few times, here at MIA. Oh, you think it was just “mental illness” that “drove me to it”, right? WRONG.

        I had been chased. I was being followed and chased. It resulted in a crash and burn.

        I wasn’t “paranoid” – I was ACTUALLY being CHASED.

        It is a SICK WORLD.

          • First of all, what I said about intelligence was this: “It would be an act of WAR to accuse me, assault my mind, insult my intelligence or treat me like an idiot or a “crazy” person.”

            It was meremortal who interpreted that as his or her PERCEPTION of my supposed “superior intelligence”. I didn’t say anything about “superiority”. In fact, if there is anything to be known in what I said, it should be obvious that my statement comes from having been abused, undermined and wrongfully discredited.

            I probably shouldn’t have responded to that part of meremortal’s emotionally based response to my comment. But then again, YES – I should have. I don’t think ANYBODY should want to “shame” me or make me feel even the slightest bit in the wrong for being an intelligent person. But that’s QUITE EXACTLY what psychiatry and the mental system DOES – is deprives people of their value and worth! We walk away from psychiatry and the mental system ENTIRELY DEVALUED, charged, convicted and condemned (and demoralized and degraded).!

            I’m not sure if I believe it’s all so random. Maybe it is, but when I apply certain religious and spiritual beliefs (such as soul contracts, soul plans, soul purposes, life missions and “everything happens for a reason”) it all takes on an entire other dimension.

            There are a lot of similarities between gang stalking / targeted individuals / energy weapons and aliens. BOTH of these extreme experiences have this in common: human experiments and experimentation.

            I have long held the idea that psychiatry is a branch of government (not medicine, not science). And there’s something about “aliens” that are very closely linked to government.

            The topic here is: did antidepressants play a role in the navy yard massacre.

            We shouldn’t be asking that question anymore, right?

  10. My first “alien” encounter was in 1999 in Andover, Massachusetts where I lived as a single mom with my three kids. I was 23 years old. My kids were 8, 4 and 2.

    I was washing the dishes when I felt something. I looked out the window and there it was … this gargantuan, low, hovering air craft. Just “sitting there”, hovering over the shopping plaza that we lived across the street from. I went outside.

    OH MY GOD.

    I went back into the house and made my son come outside with me. I needed a witness. Heh. To this very day, he really doesn’t like to talk about it.

    We lived on a 4-lane state highway. I stood on that sidewalk, jumping up and down, waving my arms and pointing, yelling to the people driving by in their cars – LOOK AT THAT!! LOOK AT THAT!!

    Not only did they not look at it, they weren’t even looking at me.!

    It took *years* to process that event. What I figured out was that THEY DID KNOW it was there. They were in a hypnotic trance (self-preservation mode). They sensed it, just like I had. But they were entranced where I was SO full of bursting energy that nothing could have calmed me down. I’m a bit fearless. Things like that make me feel ALIVE and energized.

    I still talk about it, to a world of people who still prefer to ABUSE me and call me “crazy” and “mentally ill” (pretending to themselves that I “hallucinated” it or “imagined” it – when I certainly did NOT).

    When it took off, it took off FASTER THAN A THOUGHT. It was just gone in a flash. SO fast.

    I saw the same sort of air craft again, twice, in New York in 2007 (after my kids had been taken from me).

    I have a lot more experience with these air craft and so-called “aliens”.

    Here’s the thing: VERY possible and VERY likely that these air craft are *by human design*. In that case, it would mean that “the government” is doing it (and for what reason and why would they display these types of air craft and not let the people of the world know what they are? Why not showcase them publicly in an official and legitimate way?). I’ve got a video that shows that the technology to create air craft like that was available as far back as the 30’s or 40’s. VERY likely to be human origin.

    However, it is also very likely that these are NOT human and ARE extraterrestrial. Travis Walton is a man who was abducted for five days. His testimony isn’t some “mental illness”. Mental illness is NOT what happened to Travis Walton. And he sure didn’t meet presidents or actors on that air craft.

  11. Seth, we must again agree to disagree. It strikes me as irresponsible for someone as obviously intelligent, learned and well-credentialed as you to broadcast to an audience likely to include a large number of people experiencing or familiar with [psychosis] the message that you broadcast. You say a lot of things but among them is the unmistakable message to a person experiencing psychosis that, if they believe the government is controlling their mind, they have good reason to believe their belief is true. The likelihood that such a thing is happening to the average reader — the vast majority of reads of this site — is far to low to risk setting them down the dangerous and destructive road that such beliefs can take them. Including even the fulfillment of the prophecy of persecution that can result, post 9/11, from an anti-terrorism-obsessed and trigger-happy police officer or other grunt who observes a person obsessed with espionage and government plots. You as an MIA author, experienced therapist and PhD, are different from other commentators. You are viewed as an authority in a way that is much more likely to have an impact on a given individual’s views on the truthfulness of their beliefs. Yet, notwithstanding what you may know about the experiences of some of the people you’ve worked with whom you believe were targeted, it is beyond all doubt that if such targeting is occurring that it is occurring on a small scale that is inapplicable to, at minimum, nearly all of the readers of this site. Readers who may believe the government is controlling their minds who read your observations about things you’ve read and interactions you’ve had with others may easily become convinced that their unique beliefs, unknown to you or me, are true. But because it’s overwhelmingly likely they’re not true, they are being harmed by you.

    • I don’t think it’s accurate or fair to say that the number of potential victims of mental warfare is far too low.

      If you watched the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues video, you can hear the people say how many thousands of people are experiencing this torture.

      The problem is that people deny that it’s happening and use “mental illness” as a way to explain it away. That adds more torture on top of what’s already severely torturous. You can hear them say that if they try to do something about what’s being done to them, they’ll be locked up in a psych ward. Simply put, people are trying to GET OUT OF HELL.

      I prove the reality of Hell all the time. I hear it from people constantly, “there’s no such thing as Hell.” Oh yes, there is and I prove it. Easily.

      Ever hear of Jeffrey Dahmer? Every person who walked into Jeffrey Dahmer’s apartment walked straight into Hell itself.

      Being sick and being sickened are two very different things. Sick is what Jeffrey Dahmer was and did. No drug in the world could have done anything for him. If you think he’s rare, you’d be greatly mistaken.

      Accusing somebody of imagining things, making up stories, being crazy and being mentally ill are all manipulative abusive tactics that serve to discredit a victim, blame a victim and get away with it all. It is SADISTIC.

      It is a SICK world and “one bad apple can spoil the bunch”?

      We know that government is weaponized to an extreme degree. We know that technology is extremely advanced.

      We know that MK Ultra is real. We know psych drugs DO HARM.

  12. N.I.
    You overlooked The points I made in my lat response to you that clashes with your position. But first let me say that I never said that it was more than a minority.I intend to always make clear that it is a relatively small number–however they do exist within the Mad community. But you want me to self-censor all discussion on this topic. You ignored my contention based on experience that many people who consult me a therapist would find it harmful for me to tell them that their perception that an institution is interfering in their lives is delusional. I gave 2 examples.
    Now let’s take the current case. I think the few people on here
    found this discussion edifying. No one was harmed.No one was so awed by the fact that I have a PHD in psychology that they accepted what I was saying as fact. This is not like a therapeutic
    encounter.
    The proof of the pudding is the fact that one person here has experienced exactly what I was talking about. MJK is not a credulous person, she already displays a greater familiarity with the literature on this topic than I have–I only learned about this 5 weeks ago when I was approached by a member of a group of targeted individuals. I find MJK’s story very credible. She is obviously a person of high intelligence as she says (although I’m not sure that is why she was targeted). She has done a lot of reading on this topic–her opinions are informed.
    How do you think she would feel if everyone dismissed her experiences as delusions? Don’t you think she values Mad in America precisely because she is not dismissed as a “mentally ill” person. Your implication seems to be NI that I should say to mjk, “As a psychologist I must say that these ideas of yours are paranoid.”
    I’m afraid NI your position makes no sense to me. If you just apply it to the current situation you would see that it would be patronizing and insulting. A less independent person than MJK would be troubled by my failure to take her perceptions seriously.
    You are a critic of psychiatric drugs but the position you are advocating seems similar to that of a typical psychiatrist.
    Seth
    http://www.sethHfarber.com

    • NI You are making up things and you are taking things out of context. Furthermore you evade my arguments.

      The context in which I am currently speaking is MIA under an article on violent action committed by a man who thought he was a target.This poor man could obviously find no one who agreed with him. I put it to you that it would have been a great relief to Alexis had he found one authority figure who agreed with HIS belief he was targeted–even if he wasn’t. There is one person here who says she was targeted–mjk.(I’m not sure if she believes she is still targeted.) I’ve read her posts many times before and she (I did not know her gender until just now) did not strike me as the kind of person who would change her beliefs on the basis of anything
      some psychologist–or anyone–would say. On the other hand, I find her quite convincing (unlike 2 other people I mentioned whom I thought had erroneous beliefs, delusions).
      I find her testimony adds weight to our argument that Alexis WAS targeted. But according to you by saying this I am being harmful to her. I strongly disagree. I keep telling you that to the contrary people’s self confidence
      is strengthened by being taken seriously.

      But if I were to follow your advice NI I suppose I would either not give her any reason to believe I think her testimony
      is credible, or I would try to convince her she was wrong. But of course this would be doing her a disservice. I suspect she would experience this as an insult.How does insulting people contribute to their well-being? Yet this is what you advocate.

      What about your claim that I am reinforcing fears that people are ready to give up? (Your argument falls apart if they are not ready to give them up.) First of all you misrepresent what I said. You state, “You say a lot of things but among them is the unmistakable message to a person experiencing psychosis that, if they believe the government is controlling their mind, they have good reason to believe their belief is true.” I never said that. According to Freedom from Covert Surveillance and Harassment there are 1/2 million targeted persons in the US. I’m not sure how they arrived at that number but let’s say there are more conservative estimates. So I do not give the message that people are necessarily right. So if I were to speak publicly about it–as I will in the future–I would say the number is relatively small. I would say many people believe this w/o good evidence.

      If they have delusions that they are ready to give up (and sometimes people DO obviously have delusions) then my saying the truth is not going to keep them from giving them up. People have a right to their delusions. They are almost always metaphorically correct–but that is not what they want to hear. So I have to respect them.

      I must say though NI you would not make a good counselor or therapist. I have yet to meet a SINGLE persons who had what you might call delusions –and I might agree–who would not feel undermined if I told them I thought their ideas were wrong or delusional.They would not feel relieved–they would feel invalidated. You see it is exactly the opposite of what you think NI. People are undermined by having their so-called delusions, their deepest convictions, refuted by some authority figure. You think they are relieved of their fears. In most cases the most I can do is confirm their self-confidence.
      Seth Farber, Ph.D.

      PS mjk, Is Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues video online? On youtube? I never heardof it?

  13. Sometime-friend-in-arms,I thought about but elected not to compare your behavior to that of a psychiatrist because in important ways it would be unfair and certainly off-putting to you. But there are ways in which your behavior does resemble that of a psychiatrist, and those include both favorable and unfavorable comparisons. What you share with the best of psychiatry is an appreciation of the complexity of engaging and trying to help a person to negotiate the kinds of beliefs such as mind control that sometimes we both agree are delusional. And in a way which values their subjective preferences. But what I view as familiarly problematic from my own experience in psychiatry is that you make assertions about a phenomenon affecting a narrow population which carry the imprimatur of credentialed authority yet are — even aside form the real possibly that they are insufficiently borne out by the evidence — made in a context and to an audience who may reasonably conclude that the assertion applies to a broader population: including themselves. Potentially to their great detriment. You in a way endorse ideas which at most concern an infinitesimal number of people — however unwittingly — “off-label” to a broader population as an antipsychotic might be prescribed to a person suffering from a traumatic life event. You also, from the heart but nevertheless in a way which may potentially be harmful, value the subjective perceptions of an individual irrespective of their mind state to such an extent that you would allow them to continue on a course of self-destruction and ruin. This is the very standard of care that is often followed in psychiatry (at least by people under whose care I have been). Do not challenge the person’s questionable views, lest they include you in their conspiracy, let them maintain and act on their beliefs until someone can figure out a way to inject them with a tranquilizer. While you are defiantly against the latter, here with strong basis in my view, the result of your refusal to engage has its own negative consequences.

    To address specifically what you have written, you suggest, without nearly enough evidence to warrant such a statement in this setting, that the belief Alexis may have been subject to government mind control experiments is a credible one. You make this suggestion, increasing its force, alongside references to the Manchurian Candidate films and admonitions against suspicions that his behavior was instead paranoic. Someone viewing that comment may reasonably interpret your authoritative endorsement, by way of analogy, as corroboration for their own beliefs about mind control which are very highly likely to be false. You claim that you’ve qualified your remarks with statements that the phenomenon is very small, yet also state that “it is true that there may be up to half a million person who are subjected to mind control experiments.” That this number is dwarfed by the number of people in the population does nothing to diminish the risk that this statement will be interpreted as strong corroboration for a paranoid person that their very special and unique case is among the half-million.

    Let me take a different example. If you or anyone else wishes to disparage me as someone who does not take people with these kinds of beliefs seriously then I will remind you that I have myself had these beliefs. Had I, at that time, read your comments on a site like this I most certainly would have viewed them as corroboration of the beliefs I had at the time that, among other things I have since confirmed with certainly were patently false, the government was controlling my mind. And I have also been on the other side of this phenomenon, when the closest of family members harboring similar beliefs. And, yes, when I challenged this person, I became part of those beliefs. There is no article written by anyone anywhere that could offer anything of merit in support of the view that this person’s beliefs might have been true. Some of those beliefs were about me. Just as I had, when in a similar mindset, developed false beliefs about loved ones who had challenged me and, over time as I remained in the mind state, whether they challenged me or not. This is why the standard of care adopted in psychiatry of sometimes not challenging beliefs perceived to be delusional, as it appears is your practice, is a treacherous one. What to do about a person who is set on a course of self-destruction if you want to help them? Yes, I would be among your examples of people who would feel betrayed by your challenging of my beliefs. But in retrospect, I wish someone had challenged me sooner (and then figured out another way to set me on the right course than via treatment with antipsychotics).

    There are no easy answers to the question how to deal with someone in these mind states. I know you understand this and I know your motivations are giving and sound. But there is a context-specific cost benefit analysis which must be deployed when communicating with people in the throes. Whether the communication is direct or indirect. “Indirect” communication here meaning the endorsement by credentialed authorities of insufficiently established and marginally applicable ideas in ways which may reasonably be perceived (especially by those whose mind states are highly unreasonable) as corroborative of falsehoods about their own individual circumstances.

    • All I can say NI that is positive, in agreement that is, is that you articulate your position well and your concern is a valid one. That is, I can conceive of some, perhaps many, contexts in which I would withhold my beliefs on mind control out of concern for the other person. I can conceive of situations I might reassure someone that they were not a victim of others trying to control their mind. Although I can’t remember that ever happening. I DO tell a friend that I do not believe the TV set is literally talking to her–that it is more likely that it is just synchronicity.
      But not here, not now. Particularly when the only other person who says she was a victim of mind control has been saying the same things to you that I have.
      (Nor will I never mention it in a public venue.)
      I found a quote just now on a blog by a psych survivor that is also relevant.
      “It was liberating to hear on Youtube, Ron Coleman speaking at the Voices Matter Conference. He was asked by a Hearing Voices Network member; “Do you hear voices, Ron?” “ Yes” answered Ron. “Well, they’re real.” Ron went onto say that this felt like “The first time someone acknowledged the reality of my experience.” I took this on board and applied the sense that my experiences visual, auditory, and sensory were real. It felt revelatory that what I experienced was real. Real to me, and as real as a thought, that my perceptions weren’t defective. To deny a sense that these experiences are real would be to deny many wondrous and frightening sensations. To deny beauty itself. Maybe that’s why I make paintings to show people that my experiences are real….” A fundamental human need is the need to know that the other is seeing a particular thing as well as us.
      http://opheliasmirror.org/
      Seth

  14. Let me clarify something so that I am not misunderstood. When I describe a standard of care in psychiatry and psychology which does not engage the beliefs of a person they perceive to be delusional, I mean while that person is out and about in the world and not confined against their will in a mental institution. So my comparison of your concern for the subjective beliefs of individuals to the concerns of other practitioners of psychiatry and psychology was not intended to suggest that this non-engagement is motivated by care for a person’s subjective beliefs it is the opposite. What I believe is in parallel is your concern for the subjective views and preferences of people and those who practice psychiatry in a beneficial way: that is honoring a fully informed person’s preference to be prescribed a psychiatric drug. In both instances, you and the good kind of psychiatrist, may have concerns about and objections to the course the individual is choosing. But you honor them nonetheless, and in this way the consequences are owned at least in part by the individual themselves. I would say, however, the less fully informed the individual is (i.e. about the risks of antipsychotics or the possibility that beliefs may be false),the more it is that the consequences are owned by the person giving the care.

    The other practice in my view can sometimes be highly problematic, but I think there still is some grey. That is, don’t challenge a person’s beliefs even if you think they are delusional while they are out in the world and free from confinement, because they simply are too irrational and delusional to be reasoned with. Instead, trick them into confinement in an institution, whereupon a psychiatrist assigned to them will be quite blunt about their disbelief, and will administer more and more antipsychotics until the beliefs are gone and forgotten. What is grey is that, if one does challenge a delusional person’s beliefs — let’s just use the sample size of two consisting of myself and my family member — then the challenger immediately can become part of delusions, i.e. another clandestine enemy. In that way, they become one less person who can help. No good answers, most certainly including confinement and medication. I agree with many here that this “solution” is not intended to serve the individual who is drugged and confined, but largely the people who don’t want to be bothered with them. And that this solution might be the worst of all for that person.

    • What this is really about is COMMONPLACE slaughtering of society.

      ONGOING.

      For DECADES now, people have been striking out at and slaughtering (murdering, killing, massacring) society.

      Do you know what THE mind control really is? “mental illness” itself.

      Do you know that NOTHING gets through my mind without FIRST passing through a filter of psychiatry’s diagnostics? Do you have ANY idea what a MENTAL CAGE that is? What a MIND CONTROL that is?

      Don’t think – that’s mental illness.
      Don’t feel – that’s mental illness.
      Don’t BELIEVE anything – that’s mental illness.
      Don’t REMEMBER anything – that’s mental illness.
      Don’t EXPERIENCE anything – that’s mental illness.

      THE mind control IS “mental illness” itself. For ME it is and for A LOT of other people.

      Oh, that’s not even the only mind control there is.!

      I could talk ENDLESSLY about mind control AND brainwash AND torture.

      *torture*

      That ISN’T just a 7 letter word I’m using.

  15. I wish the “edit” option was still available. I agree with many here that this “solution” is not *entirely* intended to serve the individual who is drugged and confined, but largely the people who don’t want to be bothered with them. And that this solution might be the worst of all for that person.

  16. Aileen Wuornos talks about energy weapons. For lack of terminology, she calls it “sonic pressure”.

    “I was tortured at BCI. They had the intercom on in the room and they kept lying that it wasn’t on and they were using sonic pressure on my head since 1997. And every time I was trying to write something, … they’d … I think they had some kind of eye in the cell, I’m not sure, but, every time I starting writing something it went up higher. So I’m thinking that probably had the TV rigged. The TV or the mirror. Something was rigged. They got a huge satellite on the compound. After they put the huge satellite on the compound, it could’ve been either rigged to the TV set or the mirror or something cuz the electrician, when he put the mirror on the wall, he said “doesn’t that look like a computer?”. The back of it, and he stuck it to the wall. Huh? It was crushing my head and they were using sonic pressure, continually.”

    And she continues to report the information (to somebody who isn’t listening because all the interviewer wants to talk about is the fact that Aileen murdered 7 men).

    It is WRONG to ignore and dismiss what Aileen is talking about by “reason” of “she’s a murderer”. Cast that aside so as to SEE what she’s talking about (unobstructed). Forget that she murdered people, because there are people who have NEVER murdered anyone and even they talk about energy weapons.

    It is WRONG to say that energy weapons are not real, do not exist, are not being used (against inmates or “free” citizens) or that it is “mental illness” that is happening to the victims.

    Stay tuned. Coming up next:

    100% visual and audible proof and evidence of an “energy weapon” (unless somebody wants to debate and argue the evidence).

    Although my comment is there on YouTube to be read by anyone in the world, I’m not going to repeat my comment here and I suggest that you do not yet read the comments on YouTube. See if you figure it out for yourself and see it for yourself, without being guided to see it (as my comment does exactly that). I think it is CLEAR ENOUGH for anybody to see it straight away on their own.

    The link it set to being playing at 1:28:15

    http://youtu.be/eh6my9e0NOw?t=1h28m15s

    The interview with Charles Manson is from 1989. That means technology has GREATLY advanced since then. Who would think that government would use technology on inmates but NOT expand that field to include society at large?

    And I feel like clapping.

    • MJK You’re right about the Wuornos comment.It’s very convincing. I think there is material- articles, books(that include Manson) among others–about the Manson murders that show there were other forces involved..
      It is pretty strong evidence. You know they used this technology on people without credibility. Evidently they also wanted to program them to kill. That is too evil a scenario for most people to believe. They want to believe MK-UlTRA ended, but it did not.It merely went “dark.”
      But they are NOT using it on the population at large now. But if the CIA or even rogue CIA were behind some of these killings–whether Manson, or the two in Colorado–they are trying to impact the population at large. It is terrorism. I don’t buy that they are doing it in order to create pressure for gun control–it’s more complex. My point is only that it exists and we should recognize it, even though the targets have low social credibility.
      Seth

  17. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System

    The effects of this radio frequency on humans have been studied by the military for years, and much, but not all of the research has been published openly in peer-reviewed journals.[40]

    Have been studied or PRACTICED and THEN studied? Right.

    Well Active Denial System is one thing. Then there’s “remote neural processing” and “voice to skull” technologies that people pretend is just “mental illness”.

  18. If we believe it, according to this list, school shootings go back as far as the 1760’s (almost 300 years ago). Steady through time, EVERY decade has a LIST of school shootings since the 1850’s.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

    In light of that, I’d think it would be very difficult to argue that psych drugs are the cause of *any* deadly assault, not just school shootings. But, that does not mean that psych drugs do not cause homicidality and suicidality – when we very much know they do. The psych drugs are toxic for plenty of people and that is a truth and reality that stands, all on it’s own.

    Life IS enormously complex. It seems to me that “mental illness” is acting as a gigantic dome to encompass anything and everything that is symptomatic or problematic – and I think that is not fair and not accurate, enormously detrimental and destructive.

    We KNOW that “behavioral control” technologies are used in prisons on inmates. Some of us believe that psych drugs are another form of “behavioral control” (and even biochemical weapons). We KNOW that governments use the people for their “studies”, in a multitude of forms.

    I’m not sure how other people see life on this planet, in terms of seeing it as a “house”. Alex Jones sees it as “prison planet”. Is the one collective world we’re in a prison? A court house? A hospital? A school? A grave? A church? An asylum?

    I don’t believe all 7+ billion people on this planet will ever unify vision but if we are becoming, more and more, a “house of mental illness” then the conclusion is easy. As new life comes into the world, they’re BORN INTO “MENTAL ILLNESS”. Environmentally speaking, what does that tell us?

    The song link below is 23 years old. In the lyric he says, “try to erase this from the blackboard” and at 2:30 in the video we see what is written on the blackboard:

    – Life Crisis
    – Anxiety disorders
    – Environmental Stress
    – Hereditary Factors
    – Factors that af (the word is obstructed by somebody’s head and so I’d see that as .. factors that affect the mind)

    Decades later and that list on the blackboard isn’t written in chalk anymore. The list is expanded, and it is written in Law. Furthermore, them HEREDITARY FACTORS took spot number one on the list. OH.

    Time to knock down the house and build the one that is MEANT to Be (because I’m quite certain that the crazy, retarded, stupid, sick “mental ill” house is NOT what life on Earth is “meant” to be. Let’s put an END to verbal violence, please!)

    In REALITY, Jeremy killed himself in front of his classmates at school. OMG, was he taking psych drugs?

    http://youtu.be/MS91knuzoOA

    (what played a role in this shooting and in that massacre and in this death and in that suicide and the answer is: WE ARE A *WAR* SHIP)

    War Ship or Wor Ship
    Prey or Pray

    (science does not “believe” in GOD and god LAUGHS at human science)

    Today’s post by mjk was produced by:

    Boredom! It’s its own Kingdom (and I’m not the ruler, just the slave).

    Have a nice day, whole entire world!