“… the gunman’s mother sometimes confided the difficulties she had in raising her son, including that she had placed Mr. Harper-Mercer in a psychiatric hospital when he did not take his medication.”
– Oregon Killer’s Mother Wrote of Troubled Son and Gun Rights, New York Times, October 5, 2015
A screenshot of the Facebook of the Oregon shooter, taken by a colleague of mine before the site was taken down, has the following comment from the shooter: “Chris Harper Mercer, August 16: I have a pill bottle with like five types of pills mixed in. I don’t know which ones are the sleep aids, so I just took four of each.” Here is a screenshot of Mercer’s Facebook page:
This confirms, at least, the Oregon shooter’s access to psychiatric drugs. Young people sometimes throw their drugs together and take them randomly as if they were recreational. Additionally, Mercer was also known to have graduated from a high school for youngsters with emotional and behavioral problems.
Once again, we have a shooter who has been through the “mental health” system and has probably been taking drugs. I was a medical expert in the cases surrounding Eric Harris (the Columbine shooters) and James Holmes (the Aurora shooter). Harris was taking the SSRI Luvox (fluvoxamine) for a year, starting before he became violent, and throughout the period of his growing manic-like violent state. He had a “therapeutic level” of the drug in his system on autopsy. Holmes was prescribed Zoloft the first day he saw his psychiatrist and told her that he had very violent feelings that he did not dare fully describe to her. Over 120 days, he became more violent on Zoloft and began elaborately planning the assault on the movie theater. He stopped taking the drug 20 days prior to the shootings, but by then he was grossly psychotic, again in a manic-like state.
We now have strong scientific evidence that SSRI antidepressants do indeed cause violence. One is based on a review of all violence reports to the FDA. The other, which came out in September, is a retrospective study of 18 to 25-year-olds on these drugs.
The implications of these facts are enormous, but the main goal of this report is to get them into the public discourse. It is also important to note that the major media surely had access to the information on Mercer’s website but universally has chosen to withhold it. I have written most extensively about medication-induced violence in my 2008 book, Medication Madness: the Role of Psychiatric Drugs in Cases of Violence, Suicide and Crime.
We are once again reminded of one conclusion that comes out of nearly every act of mass violence: Going through the mental health system often makes people feel more humiliated and angry, and commonly leads to psychiatric drugs which do more harm than good, causing or inflaming the aggression. Calls for more investment in the current mental health system are distracting and will increase the likelihood of more violent deaths.
Would the APA like to release an official statement? I hope they get harassed, pestered, swarmed and swamped with requests.
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This is a deliberate policy to create the situation where gun rights and civil liberties are attacked.
http://jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/Impossible_Dream-Heaton-1990-356pg-POL.pdf
http://deliberatedumbingdown.com/
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I wonder how reliable these studies are. Correlation is not causation. For example, the people in the second, Swedish study could have been taking neuroleptics more frequently during periods where they were also unusually angry, stressed, or depressed. Neuroleptics could have nothing to do with increased violence.
What I am quite sure about is that rage, terror, lack of love, and interpersonal stress were strongly associated with, and arguably caused, these episodes of violence. I bet these psychosocial factors were much more important than the psych drugs.
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I can attest that the drugs cause homicidal feelings. For me, it was paxil and trazodone that caused it.
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I’m sorry, but I disagree. I believe these drugs were wrong for you because you had other issues. The problem is with physicians just giving out drugs without proper diagnosis, and follow up. I suffered from panic disorder, and after a stressful event began to take effexsor fifteen years ago. It has only made me calmer, happier and I have to dig really deeply to feel any strong anger. It was RIGHT for me. I didn’t suffer from rage disorder, multiple personalities, or psychosis, as it is obvious the young man in this article did. This article is biased.
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Dona,
If psychiatrists have discovered the art of “proper diagnosis”, kindly reveal the sources illustrating how they’ve discovered such alchemy.
And is rage disorder a new illness? Is there also fear disorder?
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Effexor may have helped you but it certainly turned my life upside down and topsy turvy; it was “the devil’s own tic tacs”. It caused me to impulsively walk out into traffic as I walked along the streets of the town where I lived. Luckily for me there were a lot of very observant drivers and they kept from running over me.
Just because you feel that Effexor works for you doesn’t mean that it doesn’t cause great harm for other people. You can’t assume that it works great for everyone. In fact, when I was on it, taking doses that would knock a horse to his knees, it made me into an emotionless zombie who didn’t give a damn about what happened to anyone else or to myself. It kept me from being in touch with my feelings. For a great number of people the SSRI’s cause what is called “spellbinding” and this causes a great many problems.
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Hi Dona,
You cannot disagree with my testimony without calling me a liar. You’ve never met me, you don’t know me, and you do not speak for me. I know what I experienced when I took paxil and trazodone, as well as all other psychiatric drugs I’ve been prescribed and have taken.
You felt the way you did on effexor because you were on drugs. I’ve taken effexor xr myself and when I first started taking it I felt inordinately “happy”. I professed that it was a “miracle drug”. Then came the excruciating memory loss, collapses on the floor, brain zaps and lastly, a seizure.
I took paxil for a very, very short time. Less than a week. I immediately stopped taking it when I started feeling hostile – homicidal – and hadn’t left my bedroom for three days. Trazodone had the same hostile, homicidal effect and so I stopped taking it.
I didn’t have those sort of feelings on any other drugs (and I’ve taken many), only those two.
I don’t know what issues you have that you choose to take psychiatric drugs for but, your experiences and mine are not the same. You don’t speak for my “issues”, my life or my body – you speak only for your own.
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I don’t know that that they don’t do that. Am only saying that it’s hard to prove causation in the same way science can prove causation with other things that are easier to see and measure. I wonder how an individual could know that it was the drug and not some other simultaneously occurring stressor or change, or some combinations of these influences, that led to homicidal or suicidal feelings. The large scale statistical studies are an attempt to sort these influences out. But I wonder how they can control for other life stressors which may (understandably) be more common around the time when individuals are given psych drugs… because these drugs tend to be prescribed more often during times of stress.
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1. The psych/pharma people may have paid agitators who say “oh it works for me.
2. Drug damage + mind control may make people think “it works for me” while ignoring major health effects AKA Breggins “spell binding”.
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I basically agree. It seems that whenever someone who’s committed a major act of violence is found to have been taking psych drugs the violence is immediately attributed to the medication. While I agree that psychiatric drugs are ineffective and very harmful I don’t believe in jumping to conclusions. This reaction also has the potential to make critics of psychiatry look like a bunch of ratbags. Finally and importantly, it diverts attention from the critical psychosocial issues that lead to psychological and interpersonal suffering.
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“It seems that whenever someone who’s committed a major act of violence is found to have been taking psych drugs the violence is immediately attributed to the medication.”
I’m quite certain this statement is untrue, Peter even mentions the information about this shooter’s drug use was not mentioned in the main stream media. “It is also important to note that the major media surely had access to the information on Mercer’s website but universally has chosen to withhold it.”
Truly, we need to make pharmaceutical advertising illegal in the US. The money involved is preventing fair and accurate reporting of the news in this country.
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I agree. Correlation is not causation. However, I feel more strongly and importantly that borrowing statistical data from the hard sciences of chemistry and biology is ineffective in exploring the heart of the matter. What I see here through the “correlation is not causation” rule is that it dismisses human behavioural studies. It simply cannot tell us anything more than that.
In this tragic case, correlation killed innocent people. That is the reality here. I have long argued against using statistical analysis that belongs to the hard sciences when exploring human behaviour. What we have here is a failure to communicate. A massive failure.
It’s time to declare that yes, these drugs often cause suicidal and homicidal ideation (as the drug makers already admitted and warned) that leads to suicidal and homicidal behaviour. Whether or not the drug companies accept this is irrelevant. The families of the innocent who died don’t want to hear about statistical evidence. They want real answers.
The real answer is that yes, these drugs too often cause someone to go from ideation to behaviour.
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The case for causation is already established. There is no need to conduct further studies. There is a need for people to acknowledge the information that already exists.
This is from London, 11 years ago, in 2004
http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/document_library/Press_release/2009/12/WC500017719.pdf
There are plenty other documents, articles, studies, references, accounts, testimonies, statements, findings…
When are people going to *acknowledge* it?
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This is interesting. If there are a series of such studies where the large majority of instances show increased violence coming with psych meds, that would be convincing. These are quasi experimental studies subject to many potential confounds and so the results of any one are not very meaningful.
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From Canada, 2004
“For example, they may experience unusual feelings of agitation, hostility or anxiety, or have impulsive or disturbing thoughts that could involve self-harm or harm to others.”
http://www.healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall-alert-rappel-avis/hc-sc/2004/13708a-eng.php
From 1995, scroll down to Adverse Effects (Short and Long Term) and see that methylphenidate and d-amphetamine cause psychosis.
http://www.ritalindeath.com/Methylphenidate.htm
From Japan in 2009,
“After its investigation, the Ministry decided to revise the label warnings on SSRI antidepressant stating, “There are cases where we cannot rule out a causal relationship [of hostility, anxiety, and sudden acts of violence] with the medication.”
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/151688.php
People need to be honest, and must confess and admit what is already known to be real and true.
Cowards and liars, who are too afraid to be honest and truthful, and fear their consequences, are the equivalent of sadistic torturers and murderers.
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I am not sure how you get from “correlation is not causation” to saying that “correlation killed innocent people” to saying “drugs often cause suicidal and homicidal ideation.”
My point was that correlation, i.e. that people were more often taking psych drugs while violent, may not mean anything about the drugs themselves. As an analogy, and this is probably one that will get me in trouble, one could say that having black skin makes you more likely to be a good basketball player. But that would only be a correlation. What would really be going on is that being taller/stronger on average (as many black men are), being encouraged to play the sport more culturally, etc. would be causing people who happen to have black skin to more often succeed at basketball, or making it more likely for them to succeed. Having dark tinted skin itself isn’t making you a better basketball player.
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I should say that in a perverse way I hope psych drugs do cause homicidal/suicidal behavior. Not because I want anyone to be hurt, but because if the data comes to light and they really do cause this behavior, then it brings closer the day where their use is severely restricted or abolished.
I am heavily anti-psych drugs like most posters here.
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I took Topamax for migraines, no mental disorder involved. The episodes of dilutions and violent behavior began within two days after the first pill taken. Everyday my symptoms grew worse, to the point I was ready to check myself into a mental hospital. Before my husband and I were about to leave we were trying to list when this begin, got worse etc. Thats when we figured out the symptoms started with the taking of Topamax. All symptoms went away once I stopped the medication. Does this happen to everyone with these drugs? I doubt it, however I have no doubt that they can cause this behavior. These drugs used on so many young people, something so many mass shooters have in common is these drugs. It’s time to take aa serious look into the connection.
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I am basically pointing out that in my view causation in this case is unable to be established using these reductionist methodological approaches, which are normally associated with quantitative research belonging to the hard sciences of biology and chemistry. My statement “correlation killed innocent people” refers to an aspect of the philosophical argument between qualitative and quantitative research camps. As I mentioned, it is not possible to establish causation in these cases using this approach. We have only correlation. And lost lives.
I feel strongly that the correlation here between psych drugs and suicidal and homicidal behaviour is too statistically powerful to be dismissed, simply because “p>005”, for example. That is how I said correlation killed people. It is a conceptual reference. A conceptual conundrum highlighting the fact that statistics don’t help us in this tragic case.
In my view it’s time to stop looking at human behaviour through these statistical lenses that belong to other domains and start approaching each case based on qualitative human observation. I feel that reductionist statistics have no really useful value in this tragic case.
I do not like quantitative statistics used in the study of human behaviour because human behaviour (soft science) is not amenable to such rigid hard science methodology.
I hope that makes sense.
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Thank you, I agree very much with the importance of the qualitative approach. It has long been neglected by reductionist psychiatrists.
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Agreed – correlation is not causation
BUT….each time I went on SSRIs I became really very angry indeed…totally out of character. It was terrifying. Then each time I came off them I ceased to have those feelings, and even through similarly tough times (both before and after SSRIs but not on them) I have not experienced the awful quality of the emotions I had with SSRIs
Lots of others have reported this, so it is not that uncommon.
The number of mass shootings where SSRIs are implicated is astounding (virtually all the non-terrorist ones), so while we all agree that correlation is not causation, there is definitely something very scary going on there, and the drug companies won’t own it and do the research, so correlation might just be the best we get.
Having the drugs and the guns out there is a very dangerous mix indeed, and the American people aren’t about to let their guns be controlled, so controlling or eliminating the drugs might be the only option if the slaughter is to cease.
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“The number of mass shootings where SSRIs are implicated is astounding.”
http://ssristories.org/category/violence/school-or-other-mass-shooting/
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I agree and a few points; The data on correlation/causation of violent behavior by psych drugs can be used by pro or anti drug groups to support their agenda. If the individual was off the drugs they can say that the drugs could have prevented the violence if he or she were taking them, for example. I think that what you pointed to and what we are missing is the early development due to trauma, deprivation, rejection and shaming of the person who became violent. Early history is demonstrated in school performance, instances of bullying, violence towards pets and siblings etc. This cannot be distorted, refuted or politicized. The meds issue, while very valid is so political and the data (statistics) are going to be manipulated by both sides. Self report on the effects of meds is vital but is being discounted now by researchers. I can vouch for the effects of Prozac, for instance, I had to taper off since it de-sensitized me to any kind of human suffering and as a social worker that didn’t work at all for me. So let’s stick to the history and development of extreme rage, loss of empathy, deprivation and especially the traumatic effects of isolation, rejection, shaming and abuse.
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I agree, these psychosocial stresses are the more fundamental factors driving the development of rage/terror and actions based on those feelings. Perhaps psych drugs exacerbate those feelings, I don’t know.
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bpd,
I think it just depends on each case of mass shooting as you can’t assume each case is the same. Just my opinion but it seems in the case of the guy who committed mass murders at an Illinois College, he seemed to be fine before going on psych meds. I remember reading his friend stating that he had gone off of them before the shooting which could have course been a factor.
But in other cases, I would tend to agree with your points. In the case of Eric Harris, it seemed he had a long history of anger many years before the SSRI came into the picture. Those killings would have occurred come heck or high water sad to say.
In the case of the VA tech shooter, he had a history of not getting his needs met in special ed which can definitely do a number on someone. As far as I know, he wasn’t put on an SSRI until he entered college so it is hard for me to claim that was the cause although it could have pushed him over the edge.
I just feel as someone who has no doubt that psych drugs can cause someone to commit a crime who might not otherwise, that if we start automatically blaming the meds for every mass shooting, we are no better than the psychiatrists who automatically dismiss the drugs as the culprits causing homicidal ideation.
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I was made homocidal and suicidal by Prozac .. never had a suicidal thought until they started me on the drug, its even documented in my record.
Another study just came out and concluded Paxil causes only suicidal ideation and violent reactions in adolescence and that previous studies finding a benefit had hidden this risk in order to get doctors prescribing the drugs for children.
Dr. Peter Breggin actually helped expose that Elly Lilly knew before Prozac was granted FDA approval in the 1980s that it caused a 12 times increase in suicidal ideation and events over other antidepressants alone. The documentation was suppressed from the FDA to get FDA approval. It took years for the data to get out. Even after it was out, no one cared, no one reacted to stop the drugs use, and people continued to get severe TBI and bodily damage from the drugs causing further losses.
http://www.obamasweapon.com/
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Paxil was the second drug they tried me on. 🙁
After staff beat me up and were caught abusinf everyone in the hospital they started me on a drug cocktail to cover it up and kill my brain so I couldn’t credibly fight them or excercise my rights about it.
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Sorry about what happened to you, Todd, and I was initially drugged to cover up an easily recognized medical error, too – to proactively prevent a potential, but non-existent malpractice suit for some paranoid doctors. This is common, and is known as the “dirty little secret of the two original educated professions,” according to an ethical pastor of mine.
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I agree
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Actually, causation has long been established…
The easy answer has been (especially by the drug companies) — these people are already depressed, so it’s that which is causing the problem.
Actually, there are have been multiple studies that show a clear causal relationship.
Here is one:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0015337
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I read the link, and in my understanding of what I have read, this is not causation. Critically, this is “association” and “implication”.
While I completely agree with the “anecdotal” claim that these drugs do indeed cause death and harm and devastation, this study does not identify causation at all. In my reading of this, “Causation” was not mentioned anywhere.
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Thanks you for highlighting this issue.
We saw the emergence of ‘never before seen’ agressive behaviours in our loved one about 3 months after starting an SSRI, these behaviours became even more intensified for at least a couple of months after the antidepressant was fully stopped (after a slow taper), then slowly decreased over a year. We now never see those aggressive behaviours anymore (even though our loved is far from recovered). We believe in our case that the aggressive behaviours were related to the SSRI.
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A very important development around this issue is that there is a Nevada legislator who wants the state to investigate the role of psych drugs in this huge epidemic of killings. I hope we do all we can to make this happen, as I am sure the drug companies are going into a frenzy to block it.
Once at least one state looks into this, I am sure it will spread. We should not ignore this.
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They may also be in a frenzy to create the studies.
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It’s very important that all this be investigated. Very important.
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“Once at least one state looks into this, I am sure it will spread.”
Ted:
I sure hope you are right about this, but I am not overly optimistic. After all, too many in the U.S. Congress see the wretched Murphy Bills are the solution to mass killings.
Some 3 years ago, Mary Flowers, an Illinois state representative, introduced a resolution to the Illinois House of Representatives calling for a ‘Task Force on Mental Diagnosis and Illinois Law.’ The task force was to investigate “at least 3 false epidemics causing countless persons to be prescribed expensive, unnecessary, potentially dangerous psychotropic drugs.”
This was actually reported on MIA. https://www.madinamerica.com/2012/04/illinois-rep-calls-for-investigation-of-false-epidemics-and-psychotropic-drugs/
Her resolution was voted down and, for good measure, Representative Flowers’ benighted colleagues in the Illinois legislature voted to allow psychologists to prescribe psychiatric medications. (When it came to the expansion of prescribing powers to psychologists, the psychiatrists vigorously opposed it, for obvious reasons. But Big Pharma money was on the psychologists, because Big Pharma’s interests lay in expanding its distribution channel. It is not a stretch to conclude that Big Pharma did not care for Representative Flowers’ initiative either.)
Obviously, it is a good thing when anyone begins to question the drugging paradigm and the link between drugs and violence. Kudos to the Nevada legislator for raising the question; I hope he/she is not drowned out by Big Pharma money that can buy lots of votes. I still hope that you are right…please share any additional information you have on the developments in Nevada.
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The IL medical community owns the IL politicians / D of PR, States Attorneys, etc. This doctor, V R Kuchipudi, who I had the misfortune of being medically unnecessarily shipped to, and “snowed” by, is still practicing medicine today.
http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao-ndil/legacy/2015/06/11/pr0416_01a.pdf
And his psychiatric “snowing” partner in crime, Humaira Saiyed, that I dealt with, has never been arrested.
As a European dude I met when I was in Europe as a kid said when I told him I was from Chicago, “Chicago, bang, bang,” referencing Al Capone. It’s just that the criminals now hold positions in the medical and governmental arenas.
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Dr. Breggin: I was excited to find your post on the MIA site as I was waiting, waiting, waiting for some sort of confirmation that this was likely yet another psychiatric drug murder spree.
MIA people: I would like to suggest that, as these horrors are likely to continue as long as psychiatry remains in denial and is focused on diverting attention from this, we put in place some quick-response measures of our own.
First we need someone in the know to get information about the psychiatric drug connections to these shooters each time such an incident occurs, as does Dr. Breggin above. Information is power.
Second — and everyone at MIA can do this no matter what their niche may be — every time a “crazy” mass murder takes place we need to flood congress people everywhere with calls opposing the Murphy Bill, because you know the other side will be taking advantage of these tragedies to propagandize against us and scare people into supporting their modern-day pogrom..
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HEAVE HO! OVERTHROW!
Now is the time.
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The mass media and governments ignore the connection between psychiatric drugs and violence because that connection does not suit the agenda.
Psychiatry is used as a form of social control. If it were exposed to the masses that psychiatry is a fraud and a pseudoscience, governments would lose one of their biggest forms of social control. Locking up a political dissident for being ‘mentally ill’ would no longer fly, and it would be exposed as an oppressive government incarcerating those that disagree with them. This would create far more social unrest than merely a ‘crazy’ person being locked up.
Psychiatry and Big Pharma know their drugs can cause violent, homicidal, or suicidal tendencies, and they use that to their advantage. It supports the claim that mental illness is real. It suits the narrative that there are dangerous people out there who are mentally ill and need treatment. It supports the claim that we need more mental health services (based on biological psychiatry of course), with more mental health screening (labeling) and more treatment (drugging).
If it was exposed to the public that psychiatric drugs are dangerous, Big Pharma would lose billions of dollars and lose credibility. Who would trust the pharmaceutical industry if they found out that Big Pharma knew of such dangerous adverse affects and buried the data to make massive profits? The FDA would lose credibility, since they are the ones that approved these drugs to be allowed on the market. The mainstream media would lose billions of dollars in advertising money. The ‘healthcare’ system would lose billions of dollars if people no longer trusted psychiatric/pharmaceutical drugs. Government officials would each potentially lose thousands/millions in pharmaceutical bribes. None of these players would want to see their lucrative cash cow exposed. They will do anything they can to either prevent the information from being widely exposed to the public, or by creating mis/dis-information to confuse the public.
The American government also frequently exploits these tragic events to push gun control. The founding fathers knew the importance of the right to bear arms, hence it being the 2nd amendment after the right of free speech. The 2nd amendment isn’t there for hunting. It’s to allow the people to own weapons equal to that which the government/military owns. Why? Because if the government turns evil and turns against the people (which it is), then the people have the means to defend themselves against a tyrannical government. This is why gun control is being pushed so much. The government is no longer run by the good guys. They want guns out of the hands of the people so the people can’t fight back.
There are several reasons why the mainstream media will not report on the connection between psychiatric drugs causing violent, homicidal, or suicidal thoughts and/or actions. It simply does not suit the narrative or the agenda. Mental illness is real, not made up. Psychiatry is a legitimate science and medical discipline, not pseudoscience and a fraud. Psychiatric drugs are safe and effective, not harmful and ineffective. Big Pharma is in the business of helping people, not making obscene profits from harming people. Governments are there to protect you from the many evils of the world, not remove your freedoms because they are the true evil ones. Everything is backwards in this world of ours. It’s amazing how easily people accept the lie yet refuse to even look at the truth. But then again, when the lie is all the people hear from the media and authority, that’s all they have to base their views of the world. A distorted world view of a distorted world run by psychopaths.
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I agree with you, Ragnarok,
Especially, “Psychiatry is used as a form of social control. If it were exposed to the masses that psychiatry is a fraud and a pseudoscience, governments would lose one of their biggest forms of social control. Locking up a political dissident for being ‘mentally ill’ would no longer fly, and it would be exposed as an oppressive government incarcerating those that disagree with them …
“The 2nd amendment isn’t there for hunting. It’s to allow the people to own weapons equal to that which the government/military owns. Why? Because if the government turns evil and turns against the people (which it is), then the people have the means to defend themselves against a tyrannical government. This is why gun control is being pushed so much. The government is no longer run by the good guys.”
The US government is run by the bankers who create the US currency – out of nothing, but charge the US government interest on this money creation out of thin air. A little history on which bankers are running the US Federal Reserve right now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfEBupAeo4
I will say, as pointed out, it appears any governmental official who goes against the Federal Reserve bankers doesn’t appear to live long.
“Everything is backwards in this world of ours. It’s amazing how easily people accept the lie yet refuse to even look at the truth. But then again, when the lie is all the people hear from the media and authority, that’s all they have to base their views of the world. A distorted world view of a distorted world run by psychopaths.”
We all need to wake up, and thankfully many are.
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“The mass media and governments ignore the connection between psychiatric drugs and violence because that connection does not suit the agenda.”
Ragnarok:
I agree with your well-articulated comments, with one caveat. I do fault the mother for making lethal weaponry accessible to her troubled son; ditto for the mother of Adam Lanza. Who knows how things might have turned had there been effective social supports and empathic people befriending and encouraging these guys instead of neurotoxic drugs. Perhaps it might have made a difference; perhaps not. There is evil in the world. But I firmly believe that one’s individual circumstances, no matter how tragic, cannot and must not be allowed to spill over to harm or endanger innocent bystanders. And while I do not like to assign blame to parents without knowing the specifics, I have no hesitancy putting the blame on the mothers (Harper and Lanza) who made lethal weapons and target available to their disturbed sons. The Second Amendment is not THAT sacred to me.
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Correction:
In the penultimate sentence of my comment above, I meant to say “…who made lethal weapons and target practice available…”
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I agree that you can’t always blame the meds on the violence. From what I have read about Columbine, Eric Harris had problems with anger long before he started taking the med. It may have pushed him over the edge but it didn’t sound like that was the direct cause.
In this case, it sure looks like the drugs are a possible cause, particularly if the shooter ended up in a psych hospital after stopping his medication. He probably went through multiple rapid changes of meds and we know how that movie usually turns out.
Sadly, I fear this will not be the last time we will have this discussion.
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Certainly beyond any doubt the drug Paxil is a suicide and/or murder making drug .I’m sure there are others. Helped someone before and after taking Paxil and also advised to have “silver” amalgams (which are 53% mercury) removed and not to install any more in future. Also in addition taught how 16 oz. glass freshly juiced green vegetable juice twice a day can improve mood immediately after drinking. After these 3 things were done the person was no longer having psych hospital emergencies . He’s chosen to still take the drug Klonapin.
Concerning the most recent shooter in Oregon, in addition I wonder what an honest real scientific study would show about all the vaccinations he received as a baby and child and those he received in boot camp before he flunked out of it ? Also what about mercury in his dental work ? I wonder what Breggin MD would say . I know what Russell Blaylock MD (retired neuro- surgeon ) would say.
Certainly there are more contributing factors to this tragedy. I’m sorry so many people have to lose their lives and that their loved ones must suffer so because of human created problems: related to dishonest pseudo scientific investigation , power, control , and financial growth for the psych pharma industrial complex and it’s owners. BTW Ted, old head , and Ragnarok are also right.
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There is a correlation between psych drugs and the worsening or onset of aggressive/hostile/sometimes violent behavior against self or others. The problem is terribly complex; The recent shooting, for example, the mother is quoted as saying that Mercer’s problems were when he was off of his medication;“She said that ‘my son is a real big problem of mine,’ ” Ms. Jefferson said in a telephone interview. “She said: ‘He has some psychological problems. Sometimes he takes his medication, sometimes he doesn’t. And that’s where the big problem is, when he doesn’t take his medication.’ ” However, how reliable is she as a reporter? How long does this medication remain in the system,? when did he start the meds? was he in a rage and vengeful before any meds were started? It will take decades to unravel the story and for each person it may be different, plus these shooters (most of them) are dead and cannot fill in the missing pieces. It would be useless to tell everyone to taper off of their meds; it wouldn’t happen and some would certainly do it wrong. People on any meds need to be monitored or they shouldn’t be given meds in the first place since these substances do change the brain. Will careful responsible monitoring take place? I doubt that. So we are left in limbo here and I still think that we need to focus upon our youngsters and identify those who are becoming victimized, angry, bullied, shamed, isolated, and doing poorly in school. Intervene early; the problem here is that funding for school counselors has been drastically cut; yet another barrier and screening instruments are problematic. The issue falls on the shoulders of families at this point; and that brings up the need for education and the problem of lack of family support and availability (no father in the home, etc). Where do we go from here?
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Q. Where do we go from here?
A. we need to NOT PATHOLOGIZE “victimized, angry, bullied, shamed, isolated, and doing poorly in school”
The medicalization response is wrong. Plain and simple.
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I agree, and this makes Margie’s “Intervene early” theology incorrect. Being “victimized, angry, bullied, shamed, isolated, and doing poorly in school” are not medical problems, thus psychoactive drugs don’t cure these problems.
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From the cradle to the grave real solutions.
1.Banning all vaccinations ( Homeopathy instead as needed )
2. Traditional Naturopaths to the forefront as primary care physicians . All existing AMA doctors required to take a 4 year remember first do no harm and how to do it course of learning from Traditional Naturopaths.
3.Other natural modalities brought to the forefront including Chinese Traditional Medicine, Ayurvedic, energy healing like YuenMethod ,various types of body work , Teams organized like at Paracelsus Klinic in Switzerland under Dr. Rau, advanced dental techniques heavy metal free ( high tech inert ceramic restorations).
Conventional ADA dental work interferes with accurate diagnosis of most anything ? Yes for REAL . See TheRauWay.com
4. Ensuring organic food supply , pure water , clean air ,
dismantling Monsanto into the dustbin also other cartels that are equally detrimental to life.Revamp Big Pharma make it prosecutable and make it accountable to the people, nationalize it.
5. Reign in the New World Order Eugenic On Steroids New and Old Family Robber Barons with their Black Flag power consolidation operations and crimes against humanity.
6. Watch the documentary Ethos on Youtube
7. Psychiatry into the dust bin of history ( maybe this should be done first. Such pseudo scientific deadly modalities of controlling human beings into zombie hood or death and Torture while speaking softly with an aire of pseudo educated arrogance. Enough of it . Makes me Puke.
8 .For individual people , Live and Let Live under an understanding of mutually guaranteed survival . Corporations are not people period.
9. I know its a great start of not easy to do stuff .
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“I know it’s a great start of not easy to do stuff ,” I agree. Except the pharmaceutical cartel should be divided up, not nationalized.
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It’s rather ironic that the “insane” see the problems in the world, and can come up with just and rational solutions to fix them. But many of the “sane” are completely blind still. However, I suppose that’s how it is to be in a time of great deception. I painted the American flag upside down and backwards, with an empty cornucopia overlaid within in 2005. Ten years later, that painting’s looking rather prophetic, given the current state of affairs of our country’s monetary system.
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I should add, the cornucopia was in the guise of a lily, to imply there is still hope. The beauty of belief in God, is there is always hope common decency will win in the end, since that’s what all the decent were promised long ago.
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Someone Else ,
You are probably correct I was just concerned about how Rockefeller became even more powerful after Standard Oil was divided up . But I guess the dividing of the pharmaceutical cartel could be done more thoroughly and carefully for the benefit of the people. Until that time . Your comments and persistent accurate explanations are important in the battle for human rights . Thank you , Fred
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Fred,
With all due respect, you make the mistake of assuming that all alternative health practitioners are competent because you don’t trust conventional medicine.
When I was tapering off of psych meds, out of desperation I went to two naturopaths that were worthless. One suggested homeopathic remedies that seemed to make the situation worse. Another one suggested taking 5HTP which would have increased my risk of serotonin syndrome due to the meds I was taking.
Many alternative health folks also are drinking the koolaide regarding chemical imbalances. Yes, they don’t prescribe harmful psych meds but their actions can be harmful if they don’t understand the whole situation as has been the experience of folks who dealt with them who were not anti alternative health.
My point is I understand the distrust of conventional medicine as I am very leery of it. But at the same, one needs to be just as critical of alternative medicine and not give them free passes just because they practice differently.
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AA ,
I apologize for not bringing more detail forward in my comment . Someone that seeks any health care help from whoever whether AMA , or Alternative Modalities or from any category IMO must do the best complete research they can because even in fields that are not bogus all practitioners are not equally skilled and incompetence and out right charlatans can be found in any catagory more especially in the higher paying ones. I’ve been studying natural healing systems for 40 years . Still I couldn’t really come out from under psychiatry until I had $3000 worth of phony dental work followed up a few years later by an advanced trained by Hal Huggins dentist for another $6000 . If family didn’t help me I’d still be up the creek .I also fortunately studied with 2 great natural healers one Traditional Naturopath and one Energy Healer but not to the point I acquired an official license to practice .
Really I believe some of the best help or leads can be found among peers . What some folks call auntie- doughtal can easily be what has brought us to thriving and surviving. Right conventional medicine has not been good to me . Less so Psychiatry . There is a difference between Naturopathy and Traditional Naturopathy . Here in Oregon the two main Naturopathic Colleges have been bought out by the AMA and curriculum subverted to advocate the phony baloney chemo radiation bs . Two for real Traditional Naturopaths are Richard Schultz ND at http://www.herbdoc.com and Linda Page ND author of “Healthy Healing ” and other books .
Study natural healing long enough you become your own best doctor . Hey , nobody knows everything . I learn a lot of stuff right here at MIA.
BTW best multifaceted healing team I ever heard of is the 80 of them that practice under Dr. Rau in Switzerland at the Paracelsus Klinic . (can be goggled) also see http://www.TheRauWay.com No I never went there to0 expensive. But it doesn’t mean you can’t read books from there or check them out on the internet or email them . Take Care
Fred
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Correction: http://www.drrausway.com/
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I wonder if you gave healthy, happy, functional people psych drugs, would they gradually become homicidal, suicidal maniacs?
That sounds like a Nazi experiment. Doubt we are going to find out the answer to that one soon. Of course with psychiatry you never know. Maybe this is the experiment going on in Lieberman’s underground lab!
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Thank you, Dr. Breggin, for spending your life speaking the truth about the harms and evils of the psychiatric drugs. I’m terribly grateful to the “conscience of psychiatry,” by the way.
Bpdtransformation,
I was a “healthy, happy, functioning” person prior to being given the psych drugs, claimed to be “safe” drugs – to proactively prevent a non-exisitant malpractice suit, by a PCP who was paranoid of such, due to the fact her husband was the “attending physician” at that “bad fix” surgery.
I was made both “psychotic” and “manic” by the psych drugs. And, as a pacifist, I became so “violent,” I pushed my beloved mother once.
Today’s psychiatric industry is more insidious than the Nazi psychiatric industry, because they iatrogenically create “mental illness” symptoms with their drugs, but claim these symptoms are genetic.
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I’m sorry to hear about this.
“Mental illness” symptoms are certainly not primarily genetic in origin; but neither are most so-called mental illness symptoms caused by psych drugs. Rather, they are mostly caused by lack of love, abuse, neglect, stress, fear, etc. I think it’s possible that they could be mostly or wholly caused by psych drugs (I honestly don’t know), but also that this is a minority of cases.
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David Healy did a clinical trial w/ SSRIs – think it was Prozac , with healthy, not depressed people. And performed the study correctly,; that is; those who experienced suicidal thoughts/preoccupation, were re-evaluated after discontinuing the drug, and found to have no further problem with SI. The drug was administered again, to these same people, and again, the SSRI caused the same adverse effect, which is correlated with symptoms of akathesia.
The risk for violent acting out- suicidal and/or homicidal behavior, has been a known adverse affect of SSRIs, some antidepressants and atypical antipsychotics for about 20 years—
Best description I can offer of this phenomenon is emotional numbing in the tandem with a dissociative state– the *jumping out of their skin* feeling that is indicative of akathesia ,is the hair trigger – compulsive/ impulsive acting out violent thoughts.
This is hardly new information– but a well kept secret — meanwhile defending the drugs by focusing on *mental illness* as the default precipitant— is well, you know, business as usual.
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Here is the link to the report of the study on healthy volunteers referenced in my previous comment:
http://davidhealy.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/2003-Risk-of-Suicides-with-SSRIs-David-Healy1.pdf
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It has already happened.
http://www.woodymatters.com/
Another case comes to mind in which I can’t remember the kid’s name. Someone was given a drug for test anxiety which I consider to be normal feelings. Had adverse reactions which led to an increase in the meds and tragically, she committed suicide.
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Just a thought — While we all know correlation is not causation, why was I patiently waiting after this event for confirmation on MIA that this latest shooter has some sort of history of psych drug exposure? And, have there been any of these events recently where psych drugs have not been somehow implicated?
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Playing devil’s advocate, your thoughts about one particular incident are not proof for or against psych drugs and violence. As for other events where psych drugs seem to be implicated when a troubled young person becomes violent, maybe it’s because…. 99.9% of troubled young Americans are on these drugs… or maybe it’s because we are focusing on only the incidents where the person was on psych drugs (the classic cognitive bias) and not focusing on cases where psych drugs weren’t involved… etc
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Playing –a broken record, your dismissing the recently publicized evidence of data hidden by design regarding suicidality caused by the SSRI, Paxil, is proof that some vested members of the scientific community felt a little shaky about defaulting this adverse effect to the *mental illness*/severe emotional state of person who ingested the psych drug.
What you may want to ponder here, is the possibility of chemically inducing a * murderous mind*– from the premise that such a sate of mind is prerequisite to these violent mass murders. Think also– about the states of mind associated with the less dangerous group of illicit drugs– ,that there is an expectation of effect; that mind/mood even thought altering is known to occur and is actually, the desired effect.
Insiders from pharma– not all of whom became whistleblowers, have shared that their reaction, one of shock and horror, as they were noting these bizarre adverse effects occurred in a population cherry picked for *safety*— The thinking that produced the decision to recode and then hide this data went something like this: These drugs will be prescribed to kids who are depressed–. so, once they are used in clinical practice, it will be damned near impossible to prove that a suicide was caused by the drug– prescribed for a patient with a diagnosis that already puts him in a risk for suicide category.
Suicide and homicide are both acts of murder. Most cases of either or both in people taking psych drugs that carry this risk, (per FDA black box warning) death is caused by an act of violence.
What a few psychiatrists with both integrity and knowledge of psychopharmacology are focusing on is an urgent matter of public safety. There is no other motivation — and the urgency has intensified with the proliferation of prescribing these drugs–
The DSM is the handbook for prescribing drugs. Most of the diagnostic labels and their standard guidelines are tailored to an effect shown in a RCT. Without the drugs, the labels themselves are, financially speaking, worthless. That these labels are worthless overall, is a natural conclusion following the reasoning that produced them.
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“Playing devil’s advocate, your thoughts about one particular incident are not proof for or against psych drugs and violence.”
Psychoactive drugs carry blackbox warnings for a reason. And this is not because the FDA was particularly diligent in mandating the warnings. The FDA was actually slow on the uptake, following the lead of its German regulatory counterpart and Dr. Breggin.
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To answer my own question, the reason I waited so patiently is that I was fairly certain that confirmation of psych drug use would inevitably come. There’s really not a whole lot of other explanation as to why this has become such a recurring phenomenon; it’s like a new “Son of Sam” every couple weeks. Again, are there any of these events where the drug connection isn’t there at all?
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Preaching to the choir here – we are again talking to each other and hoping this will be covered by the MSM but there is nothing.
There was a tiny blip last Spring when the co-pilot crashed that plane into the mountain.
I used to put on events in Harrisburg, PA, around budget time that always drew the media….we had bagpiper bands, dozens of people in wheelchairs, all very photogenic – and the TV cameras always came….all in an effort to get some of the state budget to go for disability programs.
Where is the sense of theater in this group?
I will show up – just tell me where and when. In this era of selfies and things going viral, surely this is the way to go to get this issue the ink it more than deserves.
The New York Times article this morning – comparing Sanders’ thoughtful (and Hillary’s opportunistic) positions on “gun control” – had not a word on this topic, nor did any of the hundreds of comments….though there were a few comments vaguely referencing “mental health.”
Tell me when, tell me where – and I will be there….
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It’s hard to prove causation, yes, but there is no doubt in my mind that these drugs contribute to violence toward others in some cases. (It’s not even controversial that they can increase the likelihood of self-violence.) Having taken many myself, it is easy for me to imagine psych drugs as potentially tipping the balance toward violence for these individuals. If the killers had been drinking heavily instead of taking psych drugs, would anyone be arguing about whether or not their judgments had been impaired?
And it’s not having it both ways to suggest that a causal factor could be psych drug use OR psych drug withdrawal. My experience was that use of Paxil as directed caused me to have less empathy and to have morbid fascinations, and acute withdrawal from it caused me to experience overwhelming, desperate rage such as I had never felt before. In some ways, I don’t relate to the person that I became taking psych drugs for 15 years. I’m approaching two years off them (after some tapering) and it’s still difficult to think about what they did to me. I can say with certainty, however, that I was never more likely to harm myself or others than I was during the many years that I took Paxil as directed, or during the period of acute withdrawal from it.
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It does make sense that alcohol cause contribute to greater likelihood of violence. So I can accept that the action of certain psych meds can do the same. I don’t know… when I took them, I didn’t feel it caused me to become any more homicidal or suicidal than I already was at that time. It just deadened and dulled my feelings. I actually felt it made me a bit less likely to be violent in this way.
I think the worst thing about psych drugs is that they perpetuate the myth that one “has a mental illness” and will be impaired in this way for life. This is so discouraging and false. So in a way the meds create stigma and pessimism by creating the sense that people are dealing with something innately wrong with them rather than normalized/understandable life problems. Additionally, they make it impossible to work through feelings and conflict by dulling down people’s emotions and desires. And of course, meds don’t cure any real problems.
So I’d like to see meds attacked primarily for these reasons. For more people than not the things in the above paragraph are true. If meds also contribute to violence, that needs to be clearly proven and should be added to the list of reasons to greatly limit their use.
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Agreed. I would like to know about the 6 week trial of a drug and the FDA approval. We also need to have real scientific evidence of long term use of the drugs and exactly what they do to the brain. This whole domain is so politicized and pharma-controlled that it definitely is a crap shoot to use drugs even for a very very short time and I fully understand that. I don’t think we need to “attack” meds, we need to avoid any kind of usage unless there is absolutely no alternative and the options are reduced (as they are in the ER) to restraints or jail.
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One thing I heard Breggin mention on the radio, if I have this correctly, is that some of these drugs give people the impetus and abilty to plan and materialize the darkest contents of their id/fantasy life rather than just having it swirling beneath the surface.
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Bpdt raises some important issues about the connection between psychiatric drugs and violence. The emotional impact of being diagnosed, drugged, yet given little help to deal with real emotional issues are probably the most crucial issues as to why violence may be committed by people taking these medications. The emotional numbness created by SSRI’s could also lead to a disconnect with feelings of guilt, as well as contributing the feelings that life isn’t worth living. A direct increase in agitation and violent feelings is also possible, but one needs to consider all the avenues in the present state of mental health care that can lead to tragedies.
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Why do people INSIST on ignoring and denying the fact that the drugs are KNOWNcause agitation, hostility, homicidality and suicidality? The information exists so what’s the problem in making the realization and finally just acknowledging it? Why do people insist on going around in circles over it, when the information is already known?!
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*KNOWN to cause
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$
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Nobody around here needs to be motivated by dollar signs. This is madinamerica.com, grand central station for the reality and the truth about psychiatry and psychiatric drugs. We KNOW psych drugs cause what?
It’s hopeless. Absolutely, utterly, totally hopeless.
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I just saw something yesterday on the shooting thats unsettling at http://www.naturalnews.com Mike Adam’s site. Check out most read articles today at the site.
Leads to a letter by a top CDC scientist who has a lawyer and said a type of vaccination given to black male children under 36 months old had high probability of causing them to have autism spectrum .Says it was covered up when it happened and he’s now bringing the info forward. Implied is that the black male children were targeted. The shooter was one of the targeted children his mom is a black woman his father a white man. In addition talks about 5 different psych drug scrips the shooter was on of psych drugs . Read it for your self . There is no charge.
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Thanks for the links. And damn! — who put up this site? Incredible:
http://www.psychdrugshooters.com/
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I skimmed the site linked above: all the shooters were “mentally ill”. Not a word about psych meds…
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I think you skimmed too quickly, all the examples I checked out were focused on the drugs in each case. They do use medical model terms, usually not directly, e.g. they’ll say “diagnosed with ‘mental illness.'”
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I seriously believe that Chris Harper had a predisposition to murder and he had a lot of pain in his feet.
He was angry for many reasons and he believed that his rampage would change things for other people who are like him, and perhaps stop vaccinations. But it won’t. And all that is remembered will be the violence that took place. I don’t think one person alone could have made a difference in his life. And, I wish I were the kind of person who could change such things from happening..
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What are your sources for all this? (Serious question. Vaccinations?)
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As a passenger who was picked up by Christopher a year ago when i needed a ride to Coos Bay, OR, I can say that he claimed to be in a lot of pain from his heels. He wore slippers to drive with, and then he put on cowboy boots when he got out of the car. I personally believe that vaccinations cause aspergers syndrome, that he told me he had. As i was not taking my medications at the time i was on a lot of scripts and i have little recollection of that day.
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I told myself to stop responding to these articles. I know everyone is getting sick of what I have to say but I have to comment to this. I’ve been psychiatrically drugged for decades, the last decade, the most deadly, because Klonopin was added to the mix of my cocktail (4-7 psychotropic drugs) If I didn’t know at my age (although I know full well now) that this deadly cocktail of drugs were causing all my iatrogenic illnesses: crippling depressions leading to multiple suicide attempts, emotionally deep uncontrollable crying spells (from SSRI withdrawal), heightened anxiety, chronic insomnia, excruciating migraines, severe mood swings, irritability = anger=violence=rage = homicidal ideations (benzo withdrawals), How in the world are our young people going to recognize that the drugs they’re taking are the cause of ALL their extreme suffering? Sadly, most don’t and this is when suicide looks very appealing to end a suffering they don’t understand. Because, during those last 10 years on those drugs, I didn’t either. I can’t even count how many times where one drug was abruptly cut off to make room for yet another one they prescribed throwing me into ungodly withdrawals that I didn’t understand. Psychiatric hospitals did this repeatedly, and while taking my psychiatric medicine over the decades I’ve spent alot of times there. And since withdrawing from ALL my psychiatric drugs, I haven’t been hospitalized – SINCE. Not once. This speaks for itself.
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I am not at all sick of what you have to say. I think your story is super important and I hope you keep sharing.
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Totally agree. Keep telling your story Sanderella. It definitely needs to be heard.
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I agree too! I want to hear what you have to say. The people who write & post frequently on this site are having an enormously positive impact on my life. I will tell you that as often as you need to hear : )
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I made the newspaper after psychiatric drugs made me bug out, the swat team came and all that I was so bad and out of my mind.
No one will ever convince me psychiatric drugs don’t play the leading role in these incidences.
Its all the hell I went thought cause of psychiatry that motivates me to write on this website.
Time for the psych industry to fess up on this.
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My “serotonin was low” I trusted those lying sacks of shit and got nothing but sick for it.
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Why there is no toxicology report?
Was the Oregon shooter on drugs?
Was he on any psychotropic drugs?
That would be news.
I am sure his urine and blood even hair has been tested by now.
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The toxicology report on the Connecticut school shooter apparently showed nothing, but from my understanding this does not necessarily mean that the SSRIs were not a causative factor. Check in with one of the leading world expert lawyers in this area – Karen Barth Menzies for the truth of this.
Sometimes the toxicology work is not “deep” enough, for one thing….
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