You are denying reality. The point of the articles is that the Star-D has falsified outcomes. If you choose not to believe that (belief is not science) that is up to you, but don’t try to claim that later science is responsible for updating fraud. When the authors have been confronted with their false conclusions they have doubled down, not reconsidered. It was a handy conclusion that people like you want to believe, so they believe it.
Did you read about the Star-D study? It wasn’t wrong or incomplete data. They ALTERED the outcomes. They LIED about the results. That’s different from being overridden by new and more accurate data. Do you just not want to accept that fact?
The fact that there is newer research has no bearing on the clear attempt to falsify the data in the study. Doesn’t that concern you? That the studies aren’t reporting the truth?
I don’t think he’s trying to prove his points are not opinions. He’s trying to show that the entire subject is based on opinion. I don’t think he is in a position or needs to do so. I think it’s OK to identify however you like, and it’s OK for him or you to have an opinion about it. It’s just not science.
You are sharing the “general consensus” that we’ve all been taught to believe. I suggest you read some of these stories from real people who totally believed what you say and had not so great or horrible experiences.
I’m puzzled also hoe “the right medications” are going to help with anything but #1. And of course, research has never really shown “chemical imbalances” to be real, measurable things. So you actually make a great argument that medication is at best a very small part of any treatment approach, yet you seem to be arguing it’s the whole thing.
“Depression” is not caused by one thing. That’s the first error of psychiatry – lumping all “depressed” or “manic” people together as if their behavior or emotions tell us what is wrong with them or what they need. Saying someone “has depression” tells us very little about why or what to do about it. “Treating” something makes no sense if that “thing” isn’t really a thing at all, but a phenomenon with many possible causes and solutions.
It is not about Clozapine per se. It’s about doctors playing fast and loose with the facts and the system being based on incorrect assumptions and guidance. I’d say it’s one more example of how patients are assured that doctors have all the know-how to use these drugs responsibly when they really do not, no matter how responsible they are. By the way, I consider it a pretty cheap shot to toss out that doctors have to be “lazy and negligent” to make Clozapine use a risk not worth the benefits. There are very good reasons it fell into disuse, as you very well know, and they had nothing to do with negligence.
If I can’t discuss concerns about a comment or thread, then I can’t work with you. It’s part of the rules of posting. Otherwise, you can post whatever you want and I have nothing I can do except not publish your posts. Obviously, I have a concern to discuss. If you can’t do it, I’m sorry, but that means you won’t be allowed to post.
I need to talk to you but your email does not function, in fact, appears to be a fake email. I will have to block your submissions until you post with a functioning email address. It is a requirement under the posting guidelines.
Depression is about a lot of things. The first mistake of psychiatry is assuming that depression or anxiety or any emotional phenomenon is always caused by the same thing.
15% certainly does not suggest CAUSALITY. It suggests vulnerability of certain genetic subgroups, who may have many other things in common, not a ‘schizophrenia gene.’ Causality figures would need to be in the 85-90% range. 15% says that at least 85% is NOT caused by genetics. So genetics is a secondary factor.
Abilify is an antipsychotic, most definitely prescribed frequently for “bipolar disorder.” It is only used as an adjunct for depression if regular “antidepressants” are judged not to work. Not sure where you’re getting this false information.
The “low serotinin” theory of depression has long since been debunked. Additionally antidepressants are notoriously ineffective with youth and especially children. You are operating on faulty assumptions and criticizing others for not sharing them with you. Try reading some of the stories before you judge.
You say a lot of things here you have repeated because you heard them somewhere, but most of the people on this site have a lot of direct experience with the system themselves and understand it’s not so simple. Clearly, Brittney’s life didn’t suddenly get all better when she got treatment, did it? Additionally, the issue of the guardianship was fraught with all kinds of conflicts of interest and personal agendas above and beyond any “mental health” concerns. You might want to read Anatomy of an Epidemic and get an idea why people have concerns about the “mental health” system instead of assuming everything you’ve heard is automatically true and people who don’t agree are irresponsible or ignorant.
POSTING AS MODERATOR: We are drifting over into areas of politics that transcend “mental illness,” largely because of the nature of this article. But we need to keep focused on the “mental health” themes and whether “mental illness” focus obscures structural violence. There are many other contexts besides Gaza to draw on.
The use of the term “resistance” these days doesn’t mean the same as Freud’s concept. It just means “didn’t get better with our ‘treatment.'” It’s basically a way to blame the client for the failure of the “treatment.” That’s how I read it.
Electrocuting someone into a grand mal seizure sounds like malpractice to me. How can you “do it incorrectly?” What the heck is the correct way to induce a seizure that might potentially cause brain damage?
Whether or not someone receives treatment is not an “outcome.” An outcome is a result of the treatment approach. The study does not state or claim or suggest or imply that no one has a good outcome using antipsychotic drugs. It suggests that ON THE AVERAGE, those who receive light or no intervention are more likely to have a better outcome at two years onward. A better outcome ON THE AVERAGE. There can be plenty who got a better outcome with drugs or a worse one with drugs as well. Your story is one story of millions. Yours can be 100% true and yet the average person can still be worse off in the long run on antipsychotics. You are one data point. A scientific study is made up of hundreds or thousands of data points. It’s not the same.
Most of these people have HAD ECT themselves or know someone who does. Many also know the ECT research literature better than the average clinician.
It’s insulting to suggest that anyone here is making up their minds on fictional accounts. I’m glad you had a positive experience to report, but don’t assume others experienced the same or similar things!
Traumatizing experiences are also normalized and kids are expected to not complain about it. How many kids say things like, “Oh, that’s not abuse, I totally had it coming!”
Gotta love it. THEIR “treatment” doesn’t work, but it’s because YOU are resistant. Or your “schizophrenia” is. Apparently resists without consulting you. Insanity!!!!
Please explain how any one DSM “diagnosis” is derived from scientific observation and research. Specifically, please describe how exactly one can distinguish who “has” the “disorder” from who does not ‘have it.’
This is not to say that people don’t like or benefit from biological interventions. But that’s nothing new – folks have taken substances to alter their mental/spiritual reality since the beginning of human history. That’s very, very different from claiming that something as vague and amorphous and subjective as “major depressive disorder” or “adjustment disorder” or “ADHD” is derived from the scientific method. In fact, the DSM admits they are not in its introduction, in no uncertain terms. You ought to read it some time.
The fact that you feel you can “diagnose” that based on an internet comment proves how completely subjective and unscientific these “diagnoses” really are.
Your comments reflect not having read the many testimonies of people here who were diagnosed with “major depression” or “bipolar disorder” or even “schizophrenia” and were treated with drugs for years or decades with really poor outcomes, including a significant number who did far better after they came off the drugs and did other things.
There are most definitely big medication success stories. There are also disaster stories. Same drugs, same “diagnoses,” very different outcomes. If you really want to understand a site like this, that has to be your starting point. You can’t decide people are ignorant simply because they had different experiences than you. Maybe you should stop and read some of the stories before you assume that no one here has suffered any “mental illnesses” just because they had very different outcomes than you expected to hear?
Confirmation bias is generally rooted in anecdotal evidence, aka testimonies of those helped/not helped by an intervention. Citing testimonies as proof of confirmation bias seems a bit ironic.
Here are the references I quoted. Barkley and Cunningham 1978. Swanson et al 2003. Oregon Medication Effectiveness Study 2002. Montreal ADHD Study. Raine study from Australia. Finnish comparison study to USA cohort. Not to mention Whitaker himself, who summarizes the extant literature.
How are these not citations of clinical studies? Barkley in particular is a super pro-ADHD researcher. It seems you didn’t read my earlier posts yourself. My comments are firmly rooted in years of long-term research, which you’d know if you’d bothered to read Whitaker’s work before deciding you already know all about the subject. It’s not too late to educate yourself, but I get tired of repeating the same lessons for folks who don’t seem interested in seeing another viewpoint.
And the author mentioned his “clinical experience” including a specific case, as I recall, which is 100% anecdotal. I am very clear what anecdotal evidence looks like.
I think it would be nice if you would learn to respond without putting down the person you are disagreeing with.
Is it an illness if the responses are reasonable and understandable to the conditions bringing them about? Why aren’t the people COMMITTING the traumatic acts against their loved ones or employees or patients considered the ones who have an “illness?”
ADHD being “more recognized” would in no way make it more likely that people taking stimulants being more likely to develop heart problems. It’s not a new suggestion. Probably not a common event but it sounds like more common if you take stimulants. Knowing what we know about stimulants, the increased risk of heart disease associated with them should not be surprising.
None of the studies I referred to were funded by pharmaceutical companies. Government studies, especially when longitudinal, are generally more reliable.
The average “seriously mentally ill” person, most of whom have received years of drug “treatment”, die 15-20 years younger than the general population. There are, of course, multiple reasons, but psychiatric drugs and ECT are high on the list.
The antipsychotics are known to induce diabetes and other metabolic issues, and to increase heart disease. If you think inducing diabetes doesn’t kill people, you are confused.
Anecdotes are not scientific evidence except in the crudest sense. I’m not saying the drugs have no effects or that “ADHD” is trivial or that people so diagnosed don’t do worse than the general population in a number of significant ways. I’m saying that, for instance, the claim that “untreated ADHD leads to delinquency” is false, because “treated” ADHD kid aren’t less likely to become delinquent. BOTH groups are more likely to commit criminal acts, though interestingly, I recall reading a study where those identified early on as non-aggressive “ADHD” types did not commit more criminal acts later. But it makes sense, impulsive people are more likely to do impulsive things, and committing crimes is often impulsive. The point is, IN THE COLLECTIVE, we do not reduce the delinquency rates by “medicating” the subjects. This does not mean a particular individual wouldn’t, say, feel better about school, improve their grades, or even say, “This stuff saved my life!” But those are anecdotes. Scientifically, we have to look at the overall effect, and overall, the effect of widespread stimulant use on the population is not large, if we look at the data rather than stories.
I would submit to you that there are plenty of people whom you don’t know whose situations might have gotten worse to the same degree your client base got better. I don’t know what kind of selection bias you have in your population, but I worked with foster youth and saw plenty whose lives deteriorated after starting stimulants, particularly due to aggression toward others. Many ended up with more drugs and worse “diagnoses,” one ended up psychotic until she herself stopped the drugs and went back to her old “normal.” So anecdotes can tell many stories. Collective data is more reliable.
Multiple long-term studies show no significant advantages to those taking stimulants vs. those who don’t when diagnosed with “ADHD” in childhood, other than the accidents you mention, and I believe clearly overstate in your comments. Delinquency rates, HS graduation, college enrollment, social skills, not even self-esteem scores were better for those taking stimulants. This has been confirmed since Barkley and Cunningham’s first review in 1978, confirmed by Swanson’s “Review of Reviews” in 1993, and in the OSU medication effectiveness study back in 2002 or so. Also confirmed by the Raine study in Australia, the Quebec study, a comparison study between Finnish and US kids who had very different medication rates but similar outcomes, and more.
Read Whitaker’s works if you want to fully understand what’s going on at MIA. Not everything is the way the professionals have told you it is.
It’s not really a legitimate approach to say, “What else should they have done?” It assumes that doing SOMETHING is essential and that NOT doing what they propose is foolish unless you have something “better” to replace it. It is possible that antidepressants were destructive AND there was not a “better treatment” available. We should not assume “antidepressants” as some sort of minimum standard of treatment that is the default unless we have something “better” to propose. Sometimes nothing is better than doing things that are destructive.
If it were so safe, they would not have to do toxicity tests every two weeks. Lithium can do serious kidney damage among other things. It’s therapeutic dose is as close to the toxic dose as almost any other drug you can name.
I think you are missing the larger point, Donna. You say our “knowledge” of these things is in its infancy. But the “diagnoses” themselves are not explanatory of anything, regardless of the education and experience of the person involved. How is saying, “Joe feels really hopeless and sees no point in his life” any different than saying “Joe has major depression?” Is there some way to distinguish Joe’s “Major Depression” from Mary’s “Anxiety disorder with depressive features?” They are simply descriptions of what is observed, and clinicians will make a lot of noise about “clinical depression” vs. “reactive depression” but look in the DSM, there is simply NOTHING there to make a distinction. You meet 5 out of 8 criteria, you “have major depression.” Only meet 4, you don’t. Nothing about cause, nothing about ongoing stressors, nothing about culture – just a description. That’s not a “knowledge in its infancy.” That’s just making stuff up, plain and simple. There is no way any “knowledge” can advance from that kind of basis. The DSM is not knowledge. It’s a fantasy that makes people believe “knowledge” is behind it.
Not sure what the answer is, but calling people names based on arbitrary checklists isn’t it.
I really don’t want to get into debating COVID or the WHO response. It is off topic (not about the article or about the “mental health” system) and has become highly divisive. We’ve now heard both sides well expounded. Let’s get back to our mission!
Science is not created by consensus, and does not have any consideration for a “middle ground.” Are we going to start saying that gravity is inconvenient for some people, so we’re entertaining some small modifications to help people adapt?????
The hummingbird house was a new experiment at the time with an open environment rather than cages. It felt like they were pretty good with the environment or it would not have felt good to be there. I felt like I was in their world.
I used to go to the hummingbird house at the Philadelphia Zoo during the week when nobody was there. I would sit for 10 minutes making no noise, and soon I was surrounded by birds doing their thing. It was very soothing, and I didn’t need someone to tell me it “worked!”
We know this. He can’t answer my challenge and will probably ignore my response. Otherwise, he’ll say it’s “well known” and present no evidence or else attack my credibility. That’s how it seems to be done.
Easy to say that. Please provide us with the definitive proof of shared biological pathology for all forms of “schizophrenia.” Not correlations, not candidate genes – let’s hear the exact “pathology”(to use your own words) that distinguishes these conditions. I will assume failure to answer means you have no answer.
I know, it’s like when they “discover” that hiking in the woods makes people feel calmer, and instead of saying, “hey, try hiking!” they decide to call it “Nature Therapy!”
For the record, I can’t find any moderated posts from you. Next time, I’d ask that you email me and check before publishing the assumption you’ve been moderated. I almost always leave a note.
Superstition comes into play in all forms of medical treatment. Placebo effect is acknowledged to deliver half the benefits of any treatment. Drugs become less effective the longer they’re around because people start to hear issues and concerns that were not talked about before. What people believe has a lot to do with what works.
You sound very committed to the idea that “there is only one reality” that is unaffected by any of our personal narratives. Can you submit some scientific studies that prove your contention to be true? Or is it simply a matter of faith, based on… your personal narrative?
I think the real lesson is: Kids are not all nails, even if you only have a hammer. Use the hammer when the job calls for it, otherwise, quit hammering our kids!
The fact that you worked through it yourself and found out what worked and did not work for you has to be a big plus for you. Additionally, I hope you learned that not everyone responds to the same things and that a therapist has to be creative and responsive to the individual needs of their client. It’s been proven again and again that these therapist characteristics are far more important than the modality used, in fact, in many studies the modality was not a contributing factor to positive outcomes.
Bottom line, it seems you learned empathy for your clients and haven’t forgotten that lesson.
Yeah, it’s sort of rude when patients don’t comply with the doctors’ preexisting biases and expectations, isn’t it? Maybe the doctors just need to work on robots, then you get almost total predictability!
Individuals don’t need to prove the effectiveness of anything they sense is working for them. It is those claiming someone ELSE will benefit from an intervention they are offering/forcing on that person who need to show the proof.
I think it showed that administering group DBT training doesn’t lead to improved outcomes. If I’m a school administrator, that should be enough for me to think, “Well, we’ve got only so much time in the day, why waste time on something that doesn’t have a significantly positive effect?” An intervention doesn’t have to be proven harmful to be avoided. It just needs to be shown not to be significantly helpful.
These “differences” are AVERAGES – They can never be used to determine if person A “has schizophrenia” or person B does not. There are tons of “schizophrenic”-diagnosed people who do NOT have frontal cortex atrophy. It’s also well known that frontal cortex atrophy and other brain shrinkage can be caused by the antipsychotics themselves. PET and f-MRI studies are absolutely useless in “diagnosis.” And of course, this must be the case, because there is no reason to believe any 5 people with the same “diagnosis” have the same kind of problem or need the same kind of help.
I would add that psych ward staff also need to learn and practice these things. Some do this well, but some don’t. The real problem is POWER. The people with power are telling the kids how to “manage their emotions” and whatnot, but they are still free to be as abusive, neglectful, and thoughtless as they wish and suffer no consequences. Whether its parents, teachers, staff, doctors, pastoral leaders, or even just adults who are comfortable exercising power over those they feel are beneath them, as long as the person in the one-up power position is unwilling to step down, no amount of “emotional management” will make things any better.
I would add that the teachers need to learn and practice any skills they want the kids to have.
I had a neighbor kid who was in middle school. He explained to me they spent a one-hour assembly working on Carl Rogers’ reflective listening skills, including “I statements.”
He was sitting on the stage after the session and a teacher came up and said, “You, get off the stage!” in a very loud and aggressive manner. He said, “I don’t like it when you yell at me. I’d prefer we speak in calmer tones.”
He got sent to the Principal’s office immediately. What was the real lesson here?
Can you identify the comment by the first line of text? I don’t want to remove the wrong comment!
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You are denying reality. The point of the articles is that the Star-D has falsified outcomes. If you choose not to believe that (belief is not science) that is up to you, but don’t try to claim that later science is responsible for updating fraud. When the authors have been confronted with their false conclusions they have doubled down, not reconsidered. It was a handy conclusion that people like you want to believe, so they believe it.
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It may not be damaging, but it is certainly not scientific.
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Did you read about the Star-D study? It wasn’t wrong or incomplete data. They ALTERED the outcomes. They LIED about the results. That’s different from being overridden by new and more accurate data. Do you just not want to accept that fact?
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The fact that there is newer research has no bearing on the clear attempt to falsify the data in the study. Doesn’t that concern you? That the studies aren’t reporting the truth?
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The fact that sharing decision making is even a point of discussion says a lot. Why would you NOT share decisions with the person making them?
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Posting as moderator:
There’s no function to edit approved posts. The only solution I can propose is to submit your new post as a new post.
Hope that helps!
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See my emails to you.
I don’t think he’s trying to prove his points are not opinions. He’s trying to show that the entire subject is based on opinion. I don’t think he is in a position or needs to do so. I think it’s OK to identify however you like, and it’s OK for him or you to have an opinion about it. It’s just not science.
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Not a problem. All part of my day.
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Please let me know if I did this wrong, Tom.
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Well said!
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You are sharing the “general consensus” that we’ve all been taught to believe. I suggest you read some of these stories from real people who totally believed what you say and had not so great or horrible experiences.
I’m puzzled also hoe “the right medications” are going to help with anything but #1. And of course, research has never really shown “chemical imbalances” to be real, measurable things. So you actually make a great argument that medication is at best a very small part of any treatment approach, yet you seem to be arguing it’s the whole thing.
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“Depression” is not caused by one thing. That’s the first error of psychiatry – lumping all “depressed” or “manic” people together as if their behavior or emotions tell us what is wrong with them or what they need. Saying someone “has depression” tells us very little about why or what to do about it. “Treating” something makes no sense if that “thing” isn’t really a thing at all, but a phenomenon with many possible causes and solutions.
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It is not about Clozapine per se. It’s about doctors playing fast and loose with the facts and the system being based on incorrect assumptions and guidance. I’d say it’s one more example of how patients are assured that doctors have all the know-how to use these drugs responsibly when they really do not, no matter how responsible they are. By the way, I consider it a pretty cheap shot to toss out that doctors have to be “lazy and negligent” to make Clozapine use a risk not worth the benefits. There are very good reasons it fell into disuse, as you very well know, and they had nothing to do with negligence.
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Depression most often involves having a shitty life. What is used to measure that, Scott?
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There is not “line blurring” going on. The lines ARE BLURRY and what most object to is trying to make them seem like they are not.
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I think you are missing the point.
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If I can’t discuss concerns about a comment or thread, then I can’t work with you. It’s part of the rules of posting. Otherwise, you can post whatever you want and I have nothing I can do except not publish your posts. Obviously, I have a concern to discuss. If you can’t do it, I’m sorry, but that means you won’t be allowed to post.
Steve
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As in we have to talk.
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POSTING AS MODERATOR:
Hi, 27/2017,
I need to talk to you but your email does not function, in fact, appears to be a fake email. I will have to block your submissions until you post with a functioning email address. It is a requirement under the posting guidelines.
Steve
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Depression is about a lot of things. The first mistake of psychiatry is assuming that depression or anxiety or any emotional phenomenon is always caused by the same thing.
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15% certainly does not suggest CAUSALITY. It suggests vulnerability of certain genetic subgroups, who may have many other things in common, not a ‘schizophrenia gene.’ Causality figures would need to be in the 85-90% range. 15% says that at least 85% is NOT caused by genetics. So genetics is a secondary factor.
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Wow, you can make up a lot of stuff in one paragraph. Do you have even one citation for any of your claims?
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Abilify is an antipsychotic, most definitely prescribed frequently for “bipolar disorder.” It is only used as an adjunct for depression if regular “antidepressants” are judged not to work. Not sure where you’re getting this false information.
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At best, results are mixed. Read Irving Kirsch some time if you want to know the truth.
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The “low serotinin” theory of depression has long since been debunked. Additionally antidepressants are notoriously ineffective with youth and especially children. You are operating on faulty assumptions and criticizing others for not sharing them with you. Try reading some of the stories before you judge.
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Nobody is trying to take your medication away.
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You say a lot of things here you have repeated because you heard them somewhere, but most of the people on this site have a lot of direct experience with the system themselves and understand it’s not so simple. Clearly, Brittney’s life didn’t suddenly get all better when she got treatment, did it? Additionally, the issue of the guardianship was fraught with all kinds of conflicts of interest and personal agendas above and beyond any “mental health” concerns. You might want to read Anatomy of an Epidemic and get an idea why people have concerns about the “mental health” system instead of assuming everything you’ve heard is automatically true and people who don’t agree are irresponsible or ignorant.
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111 days – WELL DONE!
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POSTING AS MODERATOR: We are drifting over into areas of politics that transcend “mental illness,” largely because of the nature of this article. But we need to keep focused on the “mental health” themes and whether “mental illness” focus obscures structural violence. There are many other contexts besides Gaza to draw on.
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Way to go!!!!
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That sounds like your brother being put in danger by prejudice, not his own dangerous behavior.
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How would you know who genuinely “has” BPD?
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I “unapproved” the first one I could find. Is that the one you wanted?
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Posting as moderator: Which post, Beth? How does it start? I can delete it if you can help me identify it.
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The use of the term “resistance” these days doesn’t mean the same as Freud’s concept. It just means “didn’t get better with our ‘treatment.'” It’s basically a way to blame the client for the failure of the “treatment.” That’s how I read it.
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Electrocuting someone into a grand mal seizure sounds like malpractice to me. How can you “do it incorrectly?” What the heck is the correct way to induce a seizure that might potentially cause brain damage?
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I thought similarly – AI at least can’t work out its childhood issues in your sessions!
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Whether or not someone receives treatment is not an “outcome.” An outcome is a result of the treatment approach. The study does not state or claim or suggest or imply that no one has a good outcome using antipsychotic drugs. It suggests that ON THE AVERAGE, those who receive light or no intervention are more likely to have a better outcome at two years onward. A better outcome ON THE AVERAGE. There can be plenty who got a better outcome with drugs or a worse one with drugs as well. Your story is one story of millions. Yours can be 100% true and yet the average person can still be worse off in the long run on antipsychotics. You are one data point. A scientific study is made up of hundreds or thousands of data points. It’s not the same.
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Stick to the facts and the scientific studies as much as you can. No one can sue you for reporting your own experiences honestly.
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Most of these people have HAD ECT themselves or know someone who does. Many also know the ECT research literature better than the average clinician.
It’s insulting to suggest that anyone here is making up their minds on fictional accounts. I’m glad you had a positive experience to report, but don’t assume others experienced the same or similar things!
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Traumatizing experiences are also normalized and kids are expected to not complain about it. How many kids say things like, “Oh, that’s not abuse, I totally had it coming!”
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Gotta love it. THEIR “treatment” doesn’t work, but it’s because YOU are resistant. Or your “schizophrenia” is. Apparently resists without consulting you. Insanity!!!!
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Please explain how any one DSM “diagnosis” is derived from scientific observation and research. Specifically, please describe how exactly one can distinguish who “has” the “disorder” from who does not ‘have it.’
This is not to say that people don’t like or benefit from biological interventions. But that’s nothing new – folks have taken substances to alter their mental/spiritual reality since the beginning of human history. That’s very, very different from claiming that something as vague and amorphous and subjective as “major depressive disorder” or “adjustment disorder” or “ADHD” is derived from the scientific method. In fact, the DSM admits they are not in its introduction, in no uncertain terms. You ought to read it some time.
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The fact that you feel you can “diagnose” that based on an internet comment proves how completely subjective and unscientific these “diagnoses” really are.
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Always wondered why fathers got off the hook, just for starters.
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Your comments reflect not having read the many testimonies of people here who were diagnosed with “major depression” or “bipolar disorder” or even “schizophrenia” and were treated with drugs for years or decades with really poor outcomes, including a significant number who did far better after they came off the drugs and did other things.
There are most definitely big medication success stories. There are also disaster stories. Same drugs, same “diagnoses,” very different outcomes. If you really want to understand a site like this, that has to be your starting point. You can’t decide people are ignorant simply because they had different experiences than you. Maybe you should stop and read some of the stories before you assume that no one here has suffered any “mental illnesses” just because they had very different outcomes than you expected to hear?
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Confirmation bias is generally rooted in anecdotal evidence, aka testimonies of those helped/not helped by an intervention. Citing testimonies as proof of confirmation bias seems a bit ironic.
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It might be interesting to hear a specific objection you have to a specific claim or study.
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Here are the references I quoted. Barkley and Cunningham 1978. Swanson et al 2003. Oregon Medication Effectiveness Study 2002. Montreal ADHD Study. Raine study from Australia. Finnish comparison study to USA cohort. Not to mention Whitaker himself, who summarizes the extant literature.
How are these not citations of clinical studies? Barkley in particular is a super pro-ADHD researcher. It seems you didn’t read my earlier posts yourself. My comments are firmly rooted in years of long-term research, which you’d know if you’d bothered to read Whitaker’s work before deciding you already know all about the subject. It’s not too late to educate yourself, but I get tired of repeating the same lessons for folks who don’t seem interested in seeing another viewpoint.
And the author mentioned his “clinical experience” including a specific case, as I recall, which is 100% anecdotal. I am very clear what anecdotal evidence looks like.
I think it would be nice if you would learn to respond without putting down the person you are disagreeing with.
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Is it an illness if the responses are reasonable and understandable to the conditions bringing them about? Why aren’t the people COMMITTING the traumatic acts against their loved ones or employees or patients considered the ones who have an “illness?”
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ADHD being “more recognized” would in no way make it more likely that people taking stimulants being more likely to develop heart problems. It’s not a new suggestion. Probably not a common event but it sounds like more common if you take stimulants. Knowing what we know about stimulants, the increased risk of heart disease associated with them should not be surprising.
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Hearing about “numerous studies” but no names or links. Might be interesting to get out of the realm of “rhetoric” and into actual science.
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None of the studies I referred to were funded by pharmaceutical companies. Government studies, especially when longitudinal, are generally more reliable.
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The average “seriously mentally ill” person, most of whom have received years of drug “treatment”, die 15-20 years younger than the general population. There are, of course, multiple reasons, but psychiatric drugs and ECT are high on the list.
The antipsychotics are known to induce diabetes and other metabolic issues, and to increase heart disease. If you think inducing diabetes doesn’t kill people, you are confused.
Sometimes, psychiatry does kill.
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Anecdotes are not scientific evidence except in the crudest sense. I’m not saying the drugs have no effects or that “ADHD” is trivial or that people so diagnosed don’t do worse than the general population in a number of significant ways. I’m saying that, for instance, the claim that “untreated ADHD leads to delinquency” is false, because “treated” ADHD kid aren’t less likely to become delinquent. BOTH groups are more likely to commit criminal acts, though interestingly, I recall reading a study where those identified early on as non-aggressive “ADHD” types did not commit more criminal acts later. But it makes sense, impulsive people are more likely to do impulsive things, and committing crimes is often impulsive. The point is, IN THE COLLECTIVE, we do not reduce the delinquency rates by “medicating” the subjects. This does not mean a particular individual wouldn’t, say, feel better about school, improve their grades, or even say, “This stuff saved my life!” But those are anecdotes. Scientifically, we have to look at the overall effect, and overall, the effect of widespread stimulant use on the population is not large, if we look at the data rather than stories.
I would submit to you that there are plenty of people whom you don’t know whose situations might have gotten worse to the same degree your client base got better. I don’t know what kind of selection bias you have in your population, but I worked with foster youth and saw plenty whose lives deteriorated after starting stimulants, particularly due to aggression toward others. Many ended up with more drugs and worse “diagnoses,” one ended up psychotic until she herself stopped the drugs and went back to her old “normal.” So anecdotes can tell many stories. Collective data is more reliable.
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Multiple long-term studies show no significant advantages to those taking stimulants vs. those who don’t when diagnosed with “ADHD” in childhood, other than the accidents you mention, and I believe clearly overstate in your comments. Delinquency rates, HS graduation, college enrollment, social skills, not even self-esteem scores were better for those taking stimulants. This has been confirmed since Barkley and Cunningham’s first review in 1978, confirmed by Swanson’s “Review of Reviews” in 1993, and in the OSU medication effectiveness study back in 2002 or so. Also confirmed by the Raine study in Australia, the Quebec study, a comparison study between Finnish and US kids who had very different medication rates but similar outcomes, and more.
Read Whitaker’s works if you want to fully understand what’s going on at MIA. Not everything is the way the professionals have told you it is.
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You speak wisely. Unfortunately, the privileged are generally protected sufficiently to prevent them from hearing you!
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It’s not really a legitimate approach to say, “What else should they have done?” It assumes that doing SOMETHING is essential and that NOT doing what they propose is foolish unless you have something “better” to replace it. It is possible that antidepressants were destructive AND there was not a “better treatment” available. We should not assume “antidepressants” as some sort of minimum standard of treatment that is the default unless we have something “better” to propose. Sometimes nothing is better than doing things that are destructive.
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You’ll have to ask Justin about this. If you send me an email at [email protected] I’ll see if I can forward it to him.
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Please hit the “report” link/button for anything that shows evidence of being spam/automatically generated.
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If it were so safe, they would not have to do toxicity tests every two weeks. Lithium can do serious kidney damage among other things. It’s therapeutic dose is as close to the toxic dose as almost any other drug you can name.
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Not necessarily:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2786428
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I think you are missing the larger point, Donna. You say our “knowledge” of these things is in its infancy. But the “diagnoses” themselves are not explanatory of anything, regardless of the education and experience of the person involved. How is saying, “Joe feels really hopeless and sees no point in his life” any different than saying “Joe has major depression?” Is there some way to distinguish Joe’s “Major Depression” from Mary’s “Anxiety disorder with depressive features?” They are simply descriptions of what is observed, and clinicians will make a lot of noise about “clinical depression” vs. “reactive depression” but look in the DSM, there is simply NOTHING there to make a distinction. You meet 5 out of 8 criteria, you “have major depression.” Only meet 4, you don’t. Nothing about cause, nothing about ongoing stressors, nothing about culture – just a description. That’s not a “knowledge in its infancy.” That’s just making stuff up, plain and simple. There is no way any “knowledge” can advance from that kind of basis. The DSM is not knowledge. It’s a fantasy that makes people believe “knowledge” is behind it.
Not sure what the answer is, but calling people names based on arbitrary checklists isn’t it.
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I agree 100%. But everyone still insists he’s wearing beautiful robes!
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Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Or The Stepford Wives.
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Replying as moderator:
I really don’t want to get into debating COVID or the WHO response. It is off topic (not about the article or about the “mental health” system) and has become highly divisive. We’ve now heard both sides well expounded. Let’s get back to our mission!
—-Steve
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The DSM makes a good doorstop! Maybe in the bathroom, so it can double as backup toilet paper!
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It’s my understanding that suicide rates have always fluctuated along with unemployment.
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I think the answer is no. No one is paid a fee for writing for MIA, as far as I am aware.
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Science is not created by consensus, and does not have any consideration for a “middle ground.” Are we going to start saying that gravity is inconvenient for some people, so we’re entertaining some small modifications to help people adapt?????
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You mean we should consult long-term outcome measures to see if something works? Wow, radical concept!
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I think you can just comment on the article and if the author is reading comments, they will consider your comment as intended for the author.
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He won’t even try. He’ll just go somewhere else and keep repeating the lie.
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The hummingbird house was a new experiment at the time with an open environment rather than cages. It felt like they were pretty good with the environment or it would not have felt good to be there. I felt like I was in their world.
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True! You should get funding for a study!
I used to go to the hummingbird house at the Philadelphia Zoo during the week when nobody was there. I would sit for 10 minutes making no noise, and soon I was surrounded by birds doing their thing. It was very soothing, and I didn’t need someone to tell me it “worked!”
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Exactly! They hire “nature therapists” and pay them to go hiking with you!
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We know this. He can’t answer my challenge and will probably ignore my response. Otherwise, he’ll say it’s “well known” and present no evidence or else attack my credibility. That’s how it seems to be done.
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Easy to say that. Please provide us with the definitive proof of shared biological pathology for all forms of “schizophrenia.” Not correlations, not candidate genes – let’s hear the exact “pathology”(to use your own words) that distinguishes these conditions. I will assume failure to answer means you have no answer.
Here’s your chance to prove us all wrong!
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I know, it’s like when they “discover” that hiking in the woods makes people feel calmer, and instead of saying, “hey, try hiking!” they decide to call it “Nature Therapy!”
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Posting as moderator:
If you want to connect via email, please let me know.
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Thanks!
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Strange things happen in Cyberworld! Including whole posts disappearing on occasion. Just check in with me next time.
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POSTING AS MODERATOR:
For the record, I can’t find any moderated posts from you. Next time, I’d ask that you email me and check before publishing the assumption you’ve been moderated. I almost always leave a note.
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Superstition comes into play in all forms of medical treatment. Placebo effect is acknowledged to deliver half the benefits of any treatment. Drugs become less effective the longer they’re around because people start to hear issues and concerns that were not talked about before. What people believe has a lot to do with what works.
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“Maybe you’re not DEPRESSED… maybe you are being OPPRESSED!”
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Very well done, Amber!!!! Take a bow!
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You sound very committed to the idea that “there is only one reality” that is unaffected by any of our personal narratives. Can you submit some scientific studies that prove your contention to be true? Or is it simply a matter of faith, based on… your personal narrative?
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I think the real lesson is: Kids are not all nails, even if you only have a hammer. Use the hammer when the job calls for it, otherwise, quit hammering our kids!
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The fact that you worked through it yourself and found out what worked and did not work for you has to be a big plus for you. Additionally, I hope you learned that not everyone responds to the same things and that a therapist has to be creative and responsive to the individual needs of their client. It’s been proven again and again that these therapist characteristics are far more important than the modality used, in fact, in many studies the modality was not a contributing factor to positive outcomes.
Bottom line, it seems you learned empathy for your clients and haven’t forgotten that lesson.
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Can’t argue with you there! Of course, if all psych studies were held to standard, there’s be a LOT less papers being published on all subjects!
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Yeah, it’s sort of rude when patients don’t comply with the doctors’ preexisting biases and expectations, isn’t it? Maybe the doctors just need to work on robots, then you get almost total predictability!
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Wow, that’s kind of stunning! Do you have a link to the articles?
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Individuals don’t need to prove the effectiveness of anything they sense is working for them. It is those claiming someone ELSE will benefit from an intervention they are offering/forcing on that person who need to show the proof.
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Or NEEDED too believe…
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One size NEVER fits all in the world of mental/emotional challenges.
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I think it showed that administering group DBT training doesn’t lead to improved outcomes. If I’m a school administrator, that should be enough for me to think, “Well, we’ve got only so much time in the day, why waste time on something that doesn’t have a significantly positive effect?” An intervention doesn’t have to be proven harmful to be avoided. It just needs to be shown not to be significantly helpful.
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These “differences” are AVERAGES – They can never be used to determine if person A “has schizophrenia” or person B does not. There are tons of “schizophrenic”-diagnosed people who do NOT have frontal cortex atrophy. It’s also well known that frontal cortex atrophy and other brain shrinkage can be caused by the antipsychotics themselves. PET and f-MRI studies are absolutely useless in “diagnosis.” And of course, this must be the case, because there is no reason to believe any 5 people with the same “diagnosis” have the same kind of problem or need the same kind of help.
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I would add that psych ward staff also need to learn and practice these things. Some do this well, but some don’t. The real problem is POWER. The people with power are telling the kids how to “manage their emotions” and whatnot, but they are still free to be as abusive, neglectful, and thoughtless as they wish and suffer no consequences. Whether its parents, teachers, staff, doctors, pastoral leaders, or even just adults who are comfortable exercising power over those they feel are beneath them, as long as the person in the one-up power position is unwilling to step down, no amount of “emotional management” will make things any better.
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I would add that the teachers need to learn and practice any skills they want the kids to have.
I had a neighbor kid who was in middle school. He explained to me they spent a one-hour assembly working on Carl Rogers’ reflective listening skills, including “I statements.”
He was sitting on the stage after the session and a teacher came up and said, “You, get off the stage!” in a very loud and aggressive manner. He said, “I don’t like it when you yell at me. I’d prefer we speak in calmer tones.”
He got sent to the Principal’s office immediately. What was the real lesson here?
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