I think a lot about why I can’t work therapeutically with people in the mental illness system. I have found that the same traumatic dynamic comes up with some frequency outside that system, too, with “healers” of all stripes really — alternative doctors, energy workers, therapists of various sorts, you name it… if they are in the healing profession they’ve hurt me and people like me. Some of us are like magnets to people’s ugliness. This is a sort of karmic phenomena for some of us, and to change it we must become aware of how it works under the surface because it’s not a conscious process for anyone involved. Clinicians are the worst because they’re in a position of power and they deny that this is happening. That of course adds to the injurious nature of the dynamic.
As power dynamics will have it, when those in power deny their abuses it’s straight up oppression happening and it harms. Badly.
The problematic dynamic can arise with anyone I dare to be vulnerable with. Given that healing requires allowing ourselves to get vulnerable, this is a recipe for pain and disaster. I think most of us that have been gravely harmed by psychiatry have this dynamic going on to some extent. It’s also clear that not everyone experiences the mental illness system in this way. That has often given me pause and reason to contemplate what, exactly, is going on.
I have, indeed, found deeply respectful people who can see me and hold space for that which I’ve experienced, but those folks are a rarity and I have discovered I cannot find them by searching for them. They seem to, instead, reveal themselves as this journey of healing moves forward and healing comes. In my surrender process I find that good things come if I allow rather than search. It’s a nuanced thing and it’s often a source of annoyance and pain as I learn patience.
I worked in this sick system too for many years. So I’ve seen it from both sides of the proverbial couch.
These are some tweets that arose while I was musing on the victim/perpetrator axis:
Victim and perpetrator are involved in a sick dance. As a victim I meditate on my half of this dance… what am I bringing to the equation?
How do I release the burden of victimhood once and for all so that perpetrators no longer have any hold on me?
Vulnerability that the victim displays catches and brings out shadow shit in karmically matched perpetrators. How do we recognize and let go?
This is not about letting the perpetrator off the hook, but instead it’s about ending our own victimhood… no longer allowing it to happen at all. We can’t change them — we can become aware and thus learn to not engage at all. Ideally we come to do this with neither fear nor rage in our hearts because we start to understand and see the whole dance.
Those of us with psych survivor histories (complex post traumatic stress, etc) seem to bring out shadow shit in just about all so-called mental health professionals (as well as healers of all stripes).
So, yes, we bring out the perpetrator in people who like to fancy themselves healers… and that ain’t no pretty thing.
No, it’s really a very ugly thing since those who fancy themselves helpful do not want to see how they can harm so very badly, and so they deny it with force and vigor, hurting us all the more.
More could be said, but this is feeling finished for now. I’ve written more on this topic here:
- Professional denial is a form of retraumatization
- Psychiatry ignores trauma
- Being the empowered patient
- Perceived madness will unleash unprovoked violence (violation) by cops, authorities etc.
- Healing journey — The truth is that my journey to healing has been so isolated, both by necessity and because there has been NO available professionals with the appropriate skill sets, I’ve had to find my own healing path.
- Healing journey part 2 (Attn: mental health professionals of all stripes) — It’s okay to let your clients leave you without declaring them resistant to your care. They know better than you do when they are ready to work and with whom. It should not be assumed that just because they walk out of your office they are not finding their way even as they take that action.
Mad in America hosts blogs by a diverse group of writers. These posts are designed to serve as a public forum for a discussion—broadly speaking—of psychiatry and its treatments. The opinions expressed are the writers’ own.
Thanks for this, Monica. Very timely considering the dynamics around here lately.
good to hear that it’s a timely message. you’re welcome. talking about oppression, sadly, is always timely.
I felt like sharing another thought I had on this. A professional who saw this article on social media took issue with what I said yesterday. Today I was thinking about that and I ended up tweeting my thoughts. Here they are strung together in a paragraph:
when you bring light to oppressive behavior it’s always those guilty of it that are triggered by it and who get all bent out of shape…. hence mental health professionals who perpetrate against the most vulnerable get pissed off – just like white people claiming they’re never racist. And to be clear, I know I’m racist…as a privileged white person in institutionalized white supremacy it’s impossible not to be… Same is true of mental health professionals who claim system isn’t inherently violent – if you don’t see it, you’re in deeper than those who do…
This x 1000000 ^
Spinoza says, “No matter how thin you slice it there are always two sides.” I have no idea what the other person said so it’s laughable that you said “it’s always those guilty of it that are triggered by it and who get all bent out of shape.”
Monica was talking about oppressive behavior by those who are privileged within oppressive systems, and what she wrote is 100% correct. So no, it’s not laughable at all. Are you triggered?
Am I supposed to just both of your words for it without hearing the other side of story? I just can’t sit by why others mock someone who isn’t around to defend themselves.
That would be very good of you if anyone were actually being mocked here.
Are you calling me a racist or are you saying I perpetrate against people have a mental illness? Im not and I don’t.
Don’t worry Pat. We all know you’re a grateful consumer, good little sheep and toady for the powers that be. Now go take your “meds.” You sound upset and need to numb your emotions. Meh meh!
I was once a “grateful consumer,” too. Medication spellbinding and psychiatric indoctrination are real, but nobody learns from being called names.
MePat, not sure what your issue is, but you seem to be intent on provoking conflict here. I am not in favor of making personalized attacks, but your comments appear to be personalized as well in a more subtle way. Monica made a totally legitimate post, and your comment is simply attacking due to whatever issues you are bringing to the table. I suggest you take a step back and look at your reasons for doing this.
Sorry for name calling Pat!
Uprising, I have been reading about brain-washing and indoctrination techniques used in cults. Scary how I have gone through some of that in “Mental Health!” The technique called “Breaking Point” has been used on me several times in “Day Treatment” and reduced me to tears usually. The leader of the group was usually a “case worker” or similar cog in the system. They would set the entire group on me to tear me apart with “constructive criticism.”
Only once had I been acting out. Usually it was for asking questions the case worker couldn’t answer. Asking questions got Socrates in trouble. If only they’d had neuroleptics in ancient Athens! Then they could have shut him up without hemlock. 🙂
They would set the entire group on me to tear me apart with “constructive criticism.”
I once saw another psychiatrized person refer to hospital group-therapy as “the dogfights.” I have yet to come across a more accurate description.
That “dog fight” kind of thing is routinely done in cults as a technique to keep would-be “apostates” in line.
A lot of brain washing and mind control in the mental illness system.
My Dad isn’t anti-psychiatry, but he has frequently mentioned that the people running the “wellness” centers, homes, and psych wards are more messed up than the folks they say they’re helping. Dad also drew a parallel between slavery and psychiatry once–and he never even heard of Dr. Szazs!
“Breaking point?” That sounds totally sick! And they said YOU were “mentally ill?” What is wrong with these people?
I remember the outpatient clinic was called a “wellness” center. I often thought about the irony of its name.
How about mental illness factory? 🙂
I do in fact call the system the Mental Illness System…because that is exactly what it is.
The Mental (Illness) system and thoughts on alternatives: a collection – https://beyondmeds.com/2013/08/28/the-mental-illness-system/
In Sept. of 2015 I resigned in protest from my job in community “mental health” after 23 years; I wrote a blog about this at MIA a year and a half ago. I still have a small private practice where I do therapy/coaching/helping or whatever makes the most sense (at this moment in time) to describe my relationship with people I work with.
I always read and learn from your writings and in this case take the message as a very truthful and sobering assessment of the perils (for those people vulnerable enough in life to share their secrets with a stranger) inherent in my role/work as a so-called “therapist.”
Over 10 years ago I briefly saw a therapist for a family issue (the person seemed like a very nice man) but I felt very uncomfortable with the entire process, especially with the issue of “trust.”
There are less than a handful of therapists that I have worked with over the years that I had ANY trust in the quality of their ability to work with people in a counseling relationship.
If anyone plans on doing this work with any level of integrity and safety for those they counsel, they need to constantly expose themselves to all types of survivor narratives and System criticism of the Medical Model that we might find at websites like MIA and Beyond Meds.
If one is not continuously exposed to this form of education then they WILL NOT be able to help people very much, and most likely will end up harming them. AND each person doing therapeutic type work must make sure they are CONSTANTLY engaged in a form of self-interrogation regarding their own personal agenda and the actual nature of the inherent power differential in their therapeutic relationship.
yeah, it’s pretty nuts to expect anyone to just completely trust random strangers the way the system expects people to…it’s counter to any reasonable self-care in fact…by nature we know very well who we can trust or not…we are intuitive beings but our conditioning has destroyed this capacity…the system encourages people to continue to ignore their insights and intuitions. the entire system is a house of cards — built on top of a mountain of bullshit.
Encountering random strangers (ie health “carers”) who demand unconditional trust and then say you’re “mentally ill” because you can’t/won’t do it is a really destructive thing. After trying and succeeding in trusting them against my inner voice only to be absolutely betrayed leads me to know that anyone who demands trust is inherently untrustworthy, and is seeking a victim.
It has been a hard and painful lesson for me to learn but there’s no way I’ll fall for that crap again.
Those who neither expect nor demand are far more likely to be capable of building a therapeutic relationship, whether it is called that or not.
“Those who neither expect nor demand are far more likely to be capable of building a therapeutic relationship” — YES — healthy relationships of any kind cannot be forced. Ever.
“Neither expect nor demand.” That’s it, 100%!
Wonderful comment Richard, thank you.
there are wonderful people in the world…some of them are even in the system…I know some very good people offering sanity in the midst of that chaos…
on a side note…the two people “professionals” I’ve found most profoundly healing for myself are a massage therapist and a cranial sacral therapist…neither one of them have any conventional psychology training…I’m sure that’s one of the reasons they’re so good…but I also know and have met lovely people who do have that background…friends and colleagues mostly…not anyone I’ve worked with as a client.
Monica, thanks for writing this thoughtful post. Given the timing, I’m curious if recent discussions here (e.g., https://www.madinamerica.com/2017/05/unusual-beliefs-objective-realities/) prompted you to write this. In your opinion, do you see mental health professionals here perpetrating against survivors here as they do in the system? If so, did you see this playing out in this recent discussion (and if so, how)?
no this was not a response to anything on this site. it actually arose as a result of my last encounter with a (radically) alternative practitioner in which the same sort of stuff played out. … I did confront her and spoke very much like I did in this piece…I told her we were involved in a dance…neither of us was to blame exactly but perhaps we could learn from it…she was somewhat defensive but she did acknowledge a lack of experience…it went far better than it would have with someone in the system…that’s for sure. It felt like she was willing to learn from me.
but to answer your question about mental health professionals perpetrating here as they do in the system…YES…I’ve seen them perpetrate all over the place and critical psych circles are sometimes the worst, because, frankly, when you have some expectation that someone is a ally and then they are energetically just as toxic as anyone in the system, it hurts in a whole new way…and it does happen a lot in my experience.
I’ve experienced it a lot among the critical psych circle of professionals I participate in. As a survivor with professional experience I have spent a lot of time with a lot of critical psych professionals in virtual spaces…it’s not a comforting thing for me…and in fact I don’t do it so much anymore…it got to be too painful and felt like bashing my head against the wall too often. I like to take care of myself and I’m still healing. I don’t need the constant angst…though, clearly I cannot stop doing this work either… 🙂
and again…I want to reiterate there are good, wonderful people who get it everywhere too…and I always am willing to help people get there too…if they’re willing to honestly dialogue.
Thanks for clarifying, much appreciated!
my last video speaks directly to how we need to make our own communities because of this phenomena:
Wow – this video was for me one of the most thought provoking and inspiring things I have seen in a long while. Thank you for sharing it.
oh! so nice to hear. thanks for letting me know you enjoyed it.
Monica you brought me back. Thanks for your words.
As both a survivor and a retired LISW I share your perspective in some ways.
I worked in the field for over twenty years before being pulled into the system by uninformed family, all of us traumatized by ongoing criss issues, uninformed friends, and “helpers” who really didn’t help.
The worst was the trauma of hospitalization.I knew what a decent looked,acted,and felt like. These units were prison- nothing more-nothinging less.
As a professional, I worked assiduously to treat the relationship as a team effort.
I took time to establish trust and when something bad went down I told the truth of what I had control of and what I didn’t. So if abuse was acknowledged I told my client the law – prepared them for what would happen and had them listen to my call to the abuse hotline. I tried very hard to let them know it would not be easy and keeping on telling their story to the safest folks they could find.
I was only there to help them learn to cope with life independently.
My job as I saw was to put myself out of business.
I tried hard to have a mutual respect relationship. I learned many things from my clients and sometimes was in awe of how they maintained.
My issue with the MH professional writings is -at times- you can feel the defensiveness- and I would say fear.
When one starts out writing- ” I have this- I wrote these books, I have presented these workshops, and most revealing of all – I come from this family constellation – and I am not willing to admit any true hard issues because I am an expert.
This stance- for me as a reader with both lived and professional experience disbelief, anger,triggered hurt- the stance of power- and ultimately sadness and continued lack of hope that the secret tragedy of MH care will never be totally revealed and change happen.
I want a dialogue. But it has to be played out on a fair field – a round table like the Paris Peace talks.
If you read literary critical thinking vocabulary and fiction matters in terms of the power of relationship.
There are so many people involved in the system that I would really like to hear from. Police officers, aides who work on the units, judges,ect.
Maybe Robert and staff need to work on some sort of framework for dialogue for all.
Or some toiols not used now. What about survivor first reads and commentary before a MH work comes out?
What and how did Bishop Tutu’s commission work?
Maybe a reading list for potential contributors to read before writing suggested by survivors?
Hannah Ardnt’s work would be important.
There are virulent isms all over the MH system from ages and ages ago. It has gotten into the white mean now and U think that is part of why MIA exits. Not the best way but please let’s use this to solve not continue problems otherwise U will not be back.
Politeness never hurts but the issue of power is fraught and wrought here and U know it might not even cross contributors minds or they just are not sure how or what to say so they go into default pistering mode.
How can we do this better?
thanks CatNight. those are all good suggestions and you raise some important questions.
As to the question: How can we do this better? — that underlies all the work that I do. Part of what I do is education in the hope that we will, as a community, learn and start to practice doing this better. I’ve seen some positive changes in the 10 years I’ve been doing this…we have a very long way to go.
One of the hardest things I had to learn when I first started helping my wife heal was how to accept the vile and vitriol she threw at me. Some of it was earned (after 20 years of marriage), and I had to learn to apologize WITHOUT excuse. Years later as she healed, she was able to see my side of things. But the un-earned stuff was important too. I had to allow myself to accept what was rightly for her abusers, too. Once she got it all out, she was able to heal and move on, but I still have to watch myself, constantly looking for signs that I’m forcing her to do things, even if helpful, that she simply isn’t ready or able to do. Healing is ALWAYS on her timeframe, no matter how much I wish it were faster so our relationship could be more healthy. It is so hard to constantly watch myself AND see things from my wife’s perspective, but I know that only as I do that does she feel the safety to give me complete access to everyone in her system in the healing process.
It is a fearful thing how deeply I could hurt my wife even when I have the best of intentions…but happily, as she has healed and as all of the girls in the system have begun to connect, she(all of them) is much stronger now, and so when I do stupid and even ugly things from time to time, she’s better able to handle it, though I have also learned to more quickly make amends to the girls who feel the wrongs the deepest…
you two sound like you have what is sometimes called a sacred marriage…one that challenges you both to the hilt that you may heal and grow. you both are lucky to have stuck it out and learned…and of course you’ve both lived through hell because of what your wife had to heal…my spouse too, has been extraordinarily supportive in a situation that was nothing less than hell for a long time. thank you for sharing.
What you have written is so informative for anyone trying to support someone going through extreme distress. When one receives, as you call it, the ‘un-earned stuff’ in great intensity, it can be so easy to slip into thinking that all negative responses are un-earned, and thus start to provide the type of patronizing help that mirrors the type of help one often finds in the ‘system’. It can be so difficult to tease out the unhealthy patterns in one’s own relationship ( that may have existed prior to the distress, or that may have developed as a result of the distress); from the unearned stuff for which one is simple acting as a safe and trusted sounding board.
I was singing along to the radio the other day and a song came on that reminded me of you: An Innocent
Man by Billy Joel. Broken trust is very hard to repair, no matter who broke it, and how you’ve gone about doing that is really the only way to go.
it’s so hard navigating all the hazards while helping my wife heal: my needs which so often have to be subordinate to her needs at various points; figuring out what’s important and what can be ignored; learning to be comfortable with certain ‘unhealthy’ patterns while addressing larger issues that are more pressing, and always trying to maintain a spirit of being ‘together in things’ rather than letting things devolve into ‘you versus me’ attitudes, and more….just so many landmines. It’s one of the areas I wished I’d had outside help…except that I read so many horror stories of MH experts who sabotage relationships…and so I just try to do the best I can and listen, listen, listen to all the girls so I don’t let us take a bad turn…
I had to go and look up the lyrics to that song: guess I’ve heard it my entire life and never knew what it said. Yeah, I don’t know how else to repair it except going back to the beginning and securely attaching EACH girl to myself according to her needs. The last 2 girls have been the hardest as they were the ones most deeply hidden and with the greatest trauma and needs, but we’re getting there…
Every time it’s appropriate, as often and as fast as one-finger typing allows, I write:
….please visit >beyondmeds.commadinamerica.com<….
Hope this helps!
Years ago, getting myself extracted from the mental illness system, I came up with a quote that I also use as often as I can:
"Bad help is worse than no help at all"
Psychiatry and psych drugs are almost always BAD HELP.
Dr. Kelly Brogan, and Dr. Peter Breggin, are 2 of the few exceptions which prove that rule!
And of course YOU, TOO, Monica!
yes! bad help isn’t help at all…I’ve said something similar many times. Thank you!
I too go to massage therapy and it’s great. Actually I see psychiatrist one time every four months for five minutes and massage therapist once every two weeks for one hour.
Mental Health *experts* *belong* to two *religious* groups, which perpetrate against those, who are crazy. Each Psychologist knows what this means and same is with Psychiatrists. In their eyes, we crazies are mages. They don’t define normality vs crazy *issue* with proper biological explains, but they really define both with few *lines* , from certain religious book.
I’m not part of mad in America / beyond meds OR the traditional mental health system. They both ran near to me, but skipped to the side. I’m far away and on my own. I could also say each was a speedbump in the way for me to find the path for me.
“”I was once a “grateful consumer,” too. “”
OMG Uprising, I was also as I continued to decline. My mother could see this clearly and begged me to get off of the medications. I thought she was clueless about mental health issues. Sigh!
I watched your video on youtube and completely agree that we are often times forced to find our own path to healing, in my experience the so called “professionals” did more harm than good. Even that term “professional” seriously irritates me, I would say most of the therapists/counselors I’ve seen were actually unprofessional, arrogant, seemed to lack the sensitivity and compassion I needed at the time, and maybe a little immature emotionally.
Unfortunately it can be very hard healing on your own especially when you have no one for support but like I said it’s forced on you after come to you realize how ineffective, stigmatizing, and emotionally abusive the MH system is.
I agree with this and have found the “professionals” do not like having their “expertise” challenged and are just as immature as any of the rest of us can be at times – which I take as an indication that they’re human and have good and bad days just like anyone else. However, there is a tendency for those with letters behind their name to attempt to establish dominance based on their so-called expertise, which they use to invalidate the lived-experience of the non-“pros”.
In addition, the more I heal, the more whole I become, the more assertive I have become and that is a double-edged sword. There is plenty of sociological evidence about the hazards of being an assertive woman. I’m learning to pick my battles as I am not the ‘”expert”-whisperer’.
these “professionals” can lock you up for as long as they want in a place that is worse than hell
this week in australia on primetime tv we have seen the horror of Lismore Base hopsital psych unit the deaths and cruelty inflicted there by staff who drugged at will secluded at will and spent the night shift watching tv and sleeping while people fell multiple times in the locked cells!
those are your helpers !
the “alternative” helpers as monica says quite rightly can be just as abusive, the do gooding NGO’s with their peer support workers usually part of the problem not the solution, the lived experience people can be as toxic choose carefully who you will share anything at all with
this was a wonderful post Monica and a timely reminder to all of us of the way forward thank you
Horrible as it is, the fact that they are showing it on prime time television is a good thing. In America such abuse is ignored; the media usually pretends it never happens. If they reported all the psychiatric abuse they wouldn’t have time to fit in the Abilify commercials!