It has been 8 years since I wrote my first blog for MIA, called “Playing the Odds.” I wrote then that if I thought that I could successfully take people off of SSRI antidepressants, that I would have capitalized on it and opened a string of withdrawal clinics. My seeming pessimism was commented upon by MIA readers, and I took the criticism to heart, and renewed my efforts.
People who are on medications often need to change psychiatrists because of change of insurance, relocation, or provider loss. Each time I saw a new person who was asymptomatic on a maintenance dose of a SSRI or SNRI I offered them the option of stopping their medication. Almost everyone who felt well wanted to stop their antidepressant.
I found that people who had a difficult time tapering early on were unlikely to be able to eventually completely stop. If an initial 5% dosage cut results in a lot of withdrawal symptoms, then it wasn’t worth it to struggle because, more often than not, withdrawal would become intolerably uncomfortable before stopping completely. In these people it is best to settle for harm reduction by just lowering the dose within a range of what is comfortable.
When considering how to cut the dose down and various tapering strategies, there is no one right way. The best SSRI tapering information is found on the Surviving Antidepressants web site. This has been a reference source for me.
There is a lot that is unexplained about the tapering experience. It isn’t consistent. One person who had been on a SSRI for three years failed a slow tapering due to intolerable withdrawal symptoms. An actor, a year later he went into production where he was busy 17 hours a day. He had forgotten to take his medication with him and didn’t realize he had done so until two weeks later! He was completely asymptomatic, and still asymptomatic six months later. I have also found that people who are unable to stop with a tapering protocol the first time were sometimes able to stop at a later date using the same protocol. It is hard to reconcile this with theoretical, receptor-based explanations of withdrawal.
The speed of tapering does not seem to be related to long term outcome. Slower tapering is generally more comfortable on the way down than faster tapering and facilitates stopping completely with a minimum of discomfort. However, success or failure after stopping completely mostly relates to whether tardive akathisia occurs.
Around three to six months after the last dose of antidepressant, akathisia emerges suddenly, often as an overreaction to something seemingly minor. It is an intensely anxious, agitated, and gloomy state, so uncomfortable that it is often disabling. People take comfort in considering the possibility of suicide if they don’t get better. Because of this possibility, tapering should not be undertaken lightly.
The duration of total use of all current and past SSRIs is related to long term outcome. In my clinical practice tardive akathisia seems to be fairly common in people who taper to cessation after 10 years or more of cumulative use.
Once tardive akathisia develops, there are basically three options: wait it out, reinstate the antidepressant, or use benzodiazepines for symptom reduction. Although reinstatement sometimes makes withdrawal akathisia worse, this is very infrequent. With reinstatement most people return to their baseline. I always reinstate the same drug that was withdrawn. Sometimes reinstatement results in rapid return to baseline and sometimes the return to baseline can take several months. On more than one occasion reinstatement required a higher dose than the person was taking before. Waiting out severe symptoms is inadvisable as it can take months or years to get back to baseline, and the discomfort can be extreme. Benzodiazepines can give a high level of symptomatic relief and can be used intermittently to avoid dependency, or, in more serious situations, they can be taken regularly.
People generally find that symptoms are also helped by regular exercise, good diet, and some sort of spiritual belief system. Recovery is not linear, and while the trend may be towards improvement, setbacks are expected. During a setback people often worry that they have lost all of their gains and will never get better. This is not the case.
It is particularly troubling that antidepressant withdrawal related tardive akathisia is still not recognized by medicine. People know that the tardive akathisia experience is not relapse, and is not like anything they have ever experienced. Most psychiatrists end up labeling the tardive akathisia as a form of bipolar disorder or agitated depression and want to throw a bunch of new meds at it. However, I have also found that there are thoughtful providers who welcome additional information on this subject and will work with an informed person’s information.
Not only do people suffer from the akathisia, but they also suffer because they are misunderstood by the medical profession. After the doctor diagnoses a new disorder and prescribes medications, the family will see reluctance to take any new medications as sabotaging treatment and will strongly encourage more medications. This puts the person at odds with their family as well. The experience, in addition to being intensely uncomfortable, can also end up being one of marked emotional isolation. Even if a physician is unable to help a problem medically, kindness and understanding and having someone to act as an educated guide through tardive akathisia is important.
There is no way to predict who is going to develop tardive akathisia. It does not result, as most people think, from tapering too fast. It happens even with very slow tapering. I do not think that anyone who has not already experienced akathisia can realistically be prepared for this possibility through informed consent; it is simply too uncomfortable to be fully imagined in advance. In a conversation with a surgeon, we discussed that if there was an operation, performed on asymptomatic people, that would be health promoting but resulted in severe and possibly long-lasting discomfort in an unknown percentage of patients, it would not be ethical to perform such a procedure. There is an analogy here to medical supervision of SSRI tapering.
The most common question I am asked by people with tardive akathisia is whether they are going to get better. In my personal experience, everyone has gotten better over time. The duration is unpredictable, and it can take weeks, months, or even years to recover without reinstatement.
It is gratifying to see that the issue of stopping psychiatric medications has been given increasing attention in professional circles. To date, I have not seen studies on withdrawal look at the person’s condition over the year after stopping antidepressants. Moving forward, studies on how to best taper and stop antidepressants need to also follow up on patients for at least a year after the last dosage to get a full picture.
So, still no string of lucrative SSRI withdrawal clinics for me. I no longer think that the barrier to this is my pessimism so much as the reality that the long-term consequences of SSRI tapering are unpredictable and can be severe. While tapering can be uneventful, no doctor can guarantee a safe and successful withdrawal at this time.
Mad in America hosts blogs by a diverse group of writers. These posts are designed to serve as a public forum for a discussion—broadly speaking—of psychiatry and its treatments. The opinions expressed are the writers’ own.
“While tapering can be uneventful, no doctor can guarantee a safe and successful withdrawal at this time.” Which is good reason the doctors should stop prescribing the SSRIs and SNRIs in the first place.
But I am glad the importance of withdrawing people from the psychiatric neurotoxins “has been given increasing attention in professional circles,” too. But, of course, this should have been considered, prior to mass ‘medicating’ the population with these drugs.
As one who has had brain zaps, a now known common adverse symptom of antidepressant discontinuation syndrome, for 20 years. I will say the withdrawal symptoms of the antidepressants may be permanent. And certainly, new withdrawal symptoms can occur more than a year after being taken off the drugs.
But you are right, such symptoms are way too frequently misdiagnosed as bipolar. It’s a shame the psychiatrists, and other doctors, are still so ignorant of the common adverse effects of the drugs they prescribe.
it amazes me a little that this kind of comment is really only found on this site. Why isn’t this intuitively understood by the public? Rhetorical question…
But I agree with you completely on all of this. And I’m sorry about your continuing withdrawal effects <3
I had been taking antidepressants since 1992. First imipramine and amitriptyline,then sari and snri,i was working and married till 2017. I managed a degree in pharmacy in the 90s with lots of hard work . Last year I had to take ect, when ect failed i tried ketamine iv. Both treatment failed. I was also having anxiety and ADHD. Now I am taking vybrid 60 mg,trazadon 200mg,clonazepam .5mg four times times daiky . I was dealing with severe anxiety,and insomnia. I have tried dayvigo.0.5mg and it failed.,doxepine 3mg later and it failed. Counselling also did not help. I was also experiencing severe chronic pain .Aerobic excerise increase injury and pain . I was not interested in excercise and walking due to poor sleep and pain. Last week I tried yoga,breathing excersise with chanting ,humming ,and scielent mindful meditation along with alpha stim therapy. I slowly able to cut down on doxepin 3mg and clonazepam 0.5mg . Yesterday I cut down 20 mg vybrid and last week was more productive ,got out of couch,cleaning house,going for walk,playing chess. Insomnia is still a problem but it is not effecting my energy level and focus. I am hopping to stay in low dose vibrid*(it has one law suit for pancreatic Cancer). Also I am fully aware of role of inflammation in anxiety and depression. So now I also take curcumin, ginger and lemon as an antioxidant. Clonazepam can increase the chance of dementia (not ativan). I also have type two diabetes and I am taking metformin 500mg twice daily. Most important for people with depression is cardiovascular disease, and several other disease due to less physical activities and stress in my opinion it can be prevented by doing yoga meditation and plant food with herbs like , ginger,curcumin, fruits and veggies. I am planing to cut down my vibrid to 20 mg a day by this month. Anti depresents reduce sleep quality and cause insomnia which leads to treatment resistant in my opinion.
Great that you are being proactive and informing yourself.
I have data strongly suggesting that manganese salts are therapeutic for “antipsychotic” induced dyskinesia. Would they also be useful for “antidepressant” induced dyskinesia as well? Has anyone studied the relationships between trace mineral levels and antidepressant use?
“…“While tapering can be uneventful, no doctor can guarantee a safe and successful withdrawal at this time.” Which is good reason the doctors should stop prescribing the SSRIs and SNRIs in the first place…”
Exactly! There’s no point on going on drugs that cause more serious “problems”, than a person has.
Removed for moderation.
Im a lay-expert on my own akathisia experience, while on Prozac and while withdrawing from Lamotrigine (anticonvulsant). SALT wound up playing an unusually strong role in when the “waves” of the worst of it subsided. Now (2 years off everything) if I get an episode of akathisia, half a TBSP of salt, waiting a minute, and 20 oz of water will mostly cure it. I mention this bizarre thing to say, I would be very interested in trace mineral levels and akathisia if they had a relationship!!!
Interesting. Would it be the sodium in the salt? The iodine(?) if your salt was iodized.
Back in the 1980’s, I read a piece by a Richard Kunin MD, who successfully treated “antipsychotic” induced tardive dyskinesia with manganese salts, and in some cases, relatively high doses of niacin.
I think that developed society has taken us so far from our instincts, that hydration doesn’t come naturally to us anymore. And I think hydration must play a role, because dehydration will aggravate a lot of things. That’s my suspicion about akathisia. Yes of course, we need water! But it is not the whole equation, because sodium is a major player, and yes electrolytes, but also insulin, glucose, it’s complex. I think we are, generally, all in a poor nutritional status, but conditioned to believe we must not be (rich countries and their cultures, you know). I wouldn’t be surprised if B6 or B12 or sea salt or manganese salts or iron did it in any particular case. I don’t think akathisia is unsolvable – every lead is worth investigating, that would be the scientific spirit. Sadly it’s just “anecdotal evidence” we’re going on about now! But it’s wise to get creative and try solutions out like that. Manganese, duly noted 😉
Dr Abram Hoffer used both moderate (still small) doses of manganese and high vitamin b3 to prevent and treat TD. Not sure about akathesia, I hope I’m not confusing the two. He thought if the drugs had a small amount of manganese combined in them, the TD would not occur. Actually recommended to a drug company, but of course nothing happened. I can see that as being a complicated thing even if it was legitimate. Hard to get data, but he was convincing.
He picked it up from R. Kunin, MD, featuring this treatment in an edition of the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine, which he edited at the time.
‘ It does not result, as most people think, from tapering too fast. It happens even with very slow tapering.’
But how slow can you taper when you have to go from venlafaxine 37,5 mg to 0 mg in one step?
The use of taperingstrips makes it possible to reduce in 1, 2 ,3 or more months. Considering the increasing impact of reducing dosages on the receptors with the smallest last steps, we hope (and see in our patients)for a preventive effect on the risk of developing tardive dyskenisia.
“But how slow can you taper when you have to go from venlafaxine 37,5 mg to 0 mg in one step?”
Please, people, do NOT go from 37.5 mg to 0… And if your doctor or nurse tells you to do so, please disregard them and seek advice from the folks who have walked this road before you.
Good Advice tapernurse and kindredspirit.
So the Effexor comes in a capsule right?
Take apart the capsule and divide the beads inside to taper. So for example half the beads would be about 20 mg. 1/4 would be about 10 mg.
Here is a big caution to add: if you choose to count beads to taper, be sure that your capsule is not an “XR” or “timed release”!.
I used golden paste (turmeric paste) pretty religiously during my withdrawal. The SSRI was the first and easiest. Lamictal withdrawal was hell and last. I developed gabapentin withdrawal syndrome multiple times, which is better studied than SSRI withdrawal. I’m coming up on four years off pharmaceuticals entirely. It’s liberating but I always feel the wolf at my heels and the threat of being medicated again with my physical health issues. I can’t ever go back to how I felt on the drugs. We’ve got to get rid of the concept of forced drugging. It’s a constant existential threat in the back of my mind.
“I’m coming up on four years off pharmaceuticals entirely.” Kudos, kindredspirit.
“We’ve got to get rid of the concept of forced drugging.” I couldn’t agree more. But instead, now Bill Gates wants to force vaccinate the entire world. And he’s not even a college graduate, let alone a doctor.
But that is, of course, more reason to end the right to force drug anyone, for any reason.
Oh wow, me too on the SSRI/Lamotrigine. For what it’s worth, I don’t the lamotrigine withdrawal gets the credit it deserves for being such excruciating hell. It’s really a horrifying one, i know we haven’t met, but i feel a lot of pride in you and respect for the fact that you’re 4 years off, and had to do both withdrawals. Wow. And yes, the wolf at your heels, what a good metaphor. A constant existential threat, indeed, and though you’re not alone, there’s no “official” way for us to testify for each other out of this crowd of “mental illness” which disqualifies us in many regards. If you’ve beaten back both drugs, you may just beat back a whole pack of wolves. I agree with your whole sentiment here
Take curcumin with coconut oil because it is oil soluble,for taste add milk.
So it’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t depending on the person. I wish that this information was given to people before they accept the drugs. A lot of people are being sold on a false hope.
I’ve been trying to figure out whether or not it’d be even worth trying to come off my drugs. I’m functioning relatively well right now, but I’ve never experienced being “drug free.” I was six when I was put on my first round of psych drugs and it’s been consistent since then. No neuroleptics, thankfully. Just an SSRI, a TCA, and a Benzo.
“I wish that this information was given to people before they accept the drugs.”
Where I live you don’t even get the right to accept the drugs, they get ‘administered ‘ without your knowledge when it is known you would not take them willingly. This would of course be a crime if the people who had a duty to ensure that the law was applied could find their copy of the Criminal Code, and did not use the mental health system as a means to deny anyone who is the victim of public sector misconduct the right to justice.
They simply slander away and don’t even need to apply the laws they pass. An Attorney General who will not answer a question of law (who deals with allegations of State sanctioned torture other than the people who are doing the torturing?), and instead refers matters to the Minister for Health for “actioning”? Personally I can see a problem with that but ……., strange these people don’t.
And who knew that these drugs could be prescribed AFTER they have been administered without knowledge, by a doctor you never even met? Another bonus to being able to make a person a “patient” after the fact (in fact you don’t even need to do that, simply have them ‘flagged’ on the police system falsely). What types of situations might there be a need to ‘spike’ people with date rape drugs and then have a doctor write a prescription for the persons “regular medications” which they have never taken in their life, 12 hours after they were administered? That would constitute a serious criminal offence of attempting to pervert the course of justice, compound or conceal evidence of a criminal offence, but ……. no Criminal Code, these people can literally kill and nothing will be done. Ask me how.
Public Sector Management Act means you can’t sit on the crimes forever. Or can they? When a hospital Clinical Director can call criminal fraud “editing” of documents, and provide that fraud to lawyers, anything is possible. Particularly when those with a duty to act utter with the fraud.
Your concerns are truly terrifying. Are there governments and then hidden-governments? Is there any movement to correct this abuse and restore human rights?
It seems that,world-wide, the issues are medical and then a legal system that enforces the medical-profiteers’ desires. A complication of concern in the USA are statutes of liability. A harmed person is unable to file any actio0n while harmed. Time runs out. There are provisions for tolling the statute, but representation may be out of reach when the case had this factor.
I’m not a movement-leader, but I’m well enough help someone who is. When people escape the medication prison, few are willing to work against it. The subject matter triggers hard-to-endure reactions.
Who is safe from abuse as things stand? Is this situation comparable to “The Crucible”, a play about accusation? It does seem that in The Crucible of 1650 or the legal systems of 2021, the accusation equals guilt.
“A complication of concern in the USA are statutes of liability. A harmed person is unable to file any actio0n while harmed. Time runs out. There are provisions for tolling the statute, but representation may be out of reach when the case had this factor.”
My ‘legal representatives’ made application for the unredacted documents showing I was the victim of serious criminal misconduct by the Community Nurse (Procuring the apprehension or detention of a person not suffering from a mental illness, penalty 3 years prison) and acts of torture (knowingly by the Community Nurse and it is unknown if the police were aware I had been ‘spiked’ as they already had been lied to and told I was a “patient” of this hospital so DID torture me, though it may have been as a result of the acquiescence of the Community Nurse).
The legal representatives made complaint regarding the provision of documents in “edited” form, but were told that they had applied for the documents under FOI provision (what, another ‘error’? The application was made by a Q.C. and was done according to the book) and ….. some other clap trap fob by the Chief Psychiatrist (Basically he was aware of the fraud they had received, and wasn’t going to allow them access to my documents despite them having a RIGHT to examine them).
It was three years and nine months after that I was finally provided with the unredacted documents that I had a right to within days of being tortured and kidnapped but …. the delays now man that these so called ‘advocates’ can turn me away because “it was so long ago”.
Glad MOSSAD didn’t take that attitude about the likes of Dr Mengele. Though I do see my States problem of their deliberate negligence resulting in harm to others being THEIR responsibility. AFTER they checked my delusional claim that someone had tried to harm me in the Emergency Dept, and I can only assume found other ‘unintended negative outcomes’
Once they have concealed for these people they can’t very well allow their neglect in that instance to surface with the next (300) victims. Ask the people at the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse. Once in for a penny, they’re in for a pound.
In my instance the uttering once the State thought that Police had retrieved the proof of the ‘spiking’ had been effective, and that they could then slander me with the paranoid delusional label to gaslight me to suicide would work, they could move on to their next victims. What a problem once they had played ‘lets pretend he was a “patient”‘ was exposed, and the conspiring to pervert the course of justice between the ‘human rights advocates’ and the State became apparent.
Best we refer this one the the Ministry of Ugliness. Because the Minister for Health, despite having access to the truth, continues to utter with the fraud, and the Attorney General doesn’t know where else to refer complaints regarding State sanctioned torture than to mental health services for ‘treatment’ (my questions are ones of law, and refer to the ability of the State to “edit” documents to conceal human rights abuses, and NOT a question of my sanity. I know i’m insane as a result of being ‘fuking destroyed’ by my own family at the request [threats by] of the State, but this doesn’t mean it wasn’t torture that caused that).
Making admissions and saying sorry not likely for some time, ask the Aboriginal population of this Nation.
I note Bananas that the letter of response from our Chief Psychiatrist uses the Form 1 produced by the Community Nurse as his defense for my incarceration.
“The reasons listed on the Form 1 are considered to be reasonable grounds at the time of referral”
Two points should be noted about this;
(1) the documents was known to be fraudulent as a result of the “Formal Investigation” by the hospital concerned, which resulted in the need for “edited” documents to be provided to my legal representatives. It was what is known as a ‘verbal’ and to be valid would require the Community Nurse to have the ability to travel through time and space and be capable of reading minds.
The only way they could ‘validate’ this document was to remove the information that was available to the Community Nurse in his associated notes (ie remove the context). So the ‘spiking’ with benzos removed, and the lie to police about me being his “Outpatient” needed to be concealed. Such methods of having citizens snatched from their beds by telling Police that someone is an “outpatient” to have them brutalise them into ‘confessions’ obviously something best kept out of the public arena.
(2) the document was produced as a result of an act of known torture by the Community Nurse.
Article 15 (of the Convention against the use of Torture)
Each State Party shall ensure that any statement which is established to have been made as a result of torture shall not be invoked as evidence in any proceedings, except against a person accused of torture as evidence that the statement was made.
And yet here is our Chief Psychiatrist using the results of an act of torture as a defense against those acts of torture. Though to be fair, he was also of the belief that the fraudulent documents that had been provided to my legal representatives had been accepted, and that therefore he was free to utter with the ‘confession’ extracted using those acts of torture. Gee how clever is that? The person who is supposed to be providing you protection from being tortured, is working with the torturers to ensure they are not held to account, and using the result of torture as his defense of the conduct.
I can’t say I know exactly what was discussed between the Chief Psychiatrist and the Operations Manager, but I do know that they had a conversation before he responded with a rather bizarre letter.
The Operations Manager was the person who did the Formal Investigation and was thus aware of the torture and arbitrary detention, otherwise she wouldn’t have known how to conceal it with the fraud sent to the Law Centre. Now why she would not explain to the Chief Psychiatrist how she had ‘resolved’ the little problems she was faced with? Ie I have removed the evidence of the torture and false statutory declaration, and you are now free to utter with the fraud would be one way of describing the conversation. Police have retrieved the documents showing the ‘spiking’ so there is now no probable cause for them to investigate, and in fact they are going to refer or arrest the victim should he try and make a complaint to police. So he will be back on our hands for complaining about being tortured and kidnapped, and can then be ‘unintentionally negatively outcomed’.
Mind you no one seems to want to even look at the documents I have, and the letter of response by the Chief Psychiatrist was read by the Council of Official Visitors who said they would take the matter up with him. They then returned my email and ‘unread’ the letter. So much for these ‘courageous’ ‘advocates’ for the mentally ill.
I’m kind of guessing that the ‘outcomes’ that came about as a result of this criminal negligence may have something to do with the poor cover up of a poor cover up. No need for accountability when you have mental health services, and ‘advocates’ who run from the Jack Boots.
I mean I get it that the Police look kind of stupid being stooged to do a torture and kidnap for organised criminals operating from a Private Clinic. And well, if you’ve got the stomach for it, there are ways to have the matter resolved in ‘doctors’ favour.
I also had no idea that an FOI Officer was to provide information to organised criminals as to what they need to do to conceal their criminal offending but ……. ask my wife about that one. “you’ll need to bring him under the provisions of the Mental Health Act and then we can ‘treat’ him for speaking the truth, until he speaks a truth we prefer” And those that die in the process can be used to claim there is a need for more money and more power to snatch citizens from their beds and torture them till they see that they need to be ‘helped’. I mean consider that the Chief Psychiatrist rewrote the Mental Health Act removing “reasonable grounds” required for Involuntary admission and forced treatment? How much more power do they need? A Community Nurse need only ‘suspect’ (called suss laws in Nations like this one that has a history of gross and flagrant human rights violations)
Not unlike a Magistrate knowing that a conviction is going to be obtained as a result of Police torture, ensuring that the torture goes unnoticed rather than throwing the case out of court and holding the torturers to account. Can’t ask questions of law in my state, that’s considered a mental illness. The law now ‘private property’ in Australia.
Anyone here know a good journalist who might want to look at the proof I have? Not when police are threatening families and making mental health referrals of witnesses I guess.
I will never forget the psychiatric drugs toxic effects including Akathisia. The Akathisia during withdrawal became excruciating with me pacing for hours in my house and neighborhood. I knew if I didn’t do this I would start screaming.
One of the psychiatric drugs was a powder capsule which I tried to taper from but kept getting inaccurate doses. A compounding pharmacist showed me how to use a suspension agent and calibrated cylinders to slowly reduce the drug. It took me several years to taper off the psychiatric drugs and even longer for me to be able to sleep decently. I could see how the w/d insomnia would make anybody go back to reinstating.
aria, the experience you describe – pacing for hours just to not scream – I can relate completely. I remember being in IOP level DBT, where I was allowed to make “coaching calls” for help “using your skills” – which included “crisis survival skills” like intense exercise and sticking my face in a bowl of ice water. I was having crises almost daily; this was all put down to “borderline symptoms”. During the 5 years I was in and out of that program, I was prescribed so many different drugs – antidepressants, antipsychotics, mood stabilizers, amphetamines – by so many different prescribers, it was ridiculous. No one ever said that maybe the drugs were at fault and I only learned about akathisia within the last year. When I first learned about it, the feelings of betrayal were immense.
I remember feeling like such a burden and a failure making those calls every day. I was always getting messages that I needed to learn to use my skills more on my own. I remember one time when I didn’t call and instead went into my storage area and smashed all my Christmas ornaments into shards.
I admire your resourcefulness and perseverance in tapering off the drugs. They sure don’t make it easy.
Thank you Survigingantidepressant.org for adding the warning not to go from 37,5 mg venlafaxine to 0 mg in one step.
And don’t do it by ‘counting grains’ ! Each grain does not contain the same amount of medicine!
Tablets used in taperingstrips go to 0,5 mg.
Respectfully, “uncomfortable” is not the right word. It is actually so inaccurate as to be insulting; working with people who have experienced akathisia to any extent, I would imagine you would understand this already. I suggest you change this phrasing, because it is an embarrassing black stain on an otherwise necessary piece of writing. Please reconsider that language, it is so jarring
“Respectfully, “uncomfortable” is not the right word. It is actually so inaccurate as to be insulting; working with people who have experienced akathisia to any extent, I would imagine you would understand this already. I suggest you change this phrasing, because it is an embarrassing black stain on an otherwise necessary piece of writing. Please reconsider that language, it is so jarring”
For those new to this who read the word akathisia but have no real life understanding, listen to someone who describes his akathisia –
“We’ve got to get rid of the concept of forced drugging. It’s a constant existential threat in the back of my mind.”
And so say all of us.
Agree. To refer to it as “uncomfortable” would lead many to think it’s kind of like having a stuffed up nose.
And I think “forced drugging” makes a lot of people ignore that very real problem of being forced by withdrawal side effects, or even being made to feel guilty if not “medicating”.
I’d say they perfected the drugs by the drugs doing what they were meant to.
I think a whole article could be written just on the factors that coerce a person into taking these drugs, the “forced” drugging that appears to be freely chosen (like me putting those damn pills in my mouth and swallowing them, every day, from 11 years old, Jesus help me). In fact I think it should be written. Thank you for pointing it out!!!!! Another elephant in the room, that is. Don’t look now but it’s looking more like the African savannah every day with all these glaring, tragic issues with psychiatry at large.
That sense of “forced drugging” may be the rule, but truly forced drugging does happen. When a doctor of any sort poses as an expert in ‘Tapering” a psychoactive drug and all goes dangerously badly, that doc may decide to cover his/her tracks by committing that patient to a real mental hospital where the patient is drugged into oblivion. That patient has close to no chance of seeing daylight again.
Specific case: a woman was placed on benzodiazepines. She became dependent. The consulted doc called for discontinuing by 10.0mg Valium per month. The consequent harm became a crisis. The doc had her committed to a sate hospital where the woman was massively drugged, it seems, to keep her quiet. Today this woman is brain-damaged and incapacitated. She requires total care.
Withdrawal syndrome from Benzodiazepines to civil commitment to forever crippled, it happens. It happens under the guise of giving her the “help that she needs”.
She didn’t willingly take that long list of concurrently administered drugs while in custody.
Law, in practice, assumes that the psychiatrist’s desires overcome patient rights because the psychiatrist, clearly, is a being superior to his mark.
I wouldn’t even consider the “coerced” drugging to be the rule myself, but i get what you mean. As callous as it might sound, i think it would be fair to make truly forced drugging a priority in terms of the focus of any anti-psychiatric abuse activism (and MIA is aggressive about that, and that’s really great). Basically I know what you mean and I agree that the real use of force, where there is really no escape, is bizarrely common and over alleged “relapse” and side effects, and withdrawal symptoms. How morbid… and yet it’s true, and it happens. They go hand in hand in a sense; when the system chooses you, good luck getting out
Modern studies indicate inflammation is the route cause of depression. Nsaid like diclofenac helps with acute inflammation in the muscle but not in the nurones. Curcumin ginger ,vitamin d and several other herbs and plant food heps with this kind of inflammation.yoga or slow stretching pranayana,chanting ,humming, mindfull breathing are all helpful to heal neurones. Even diabetes, cardiovascular disease and chronic kidney disease are all stemming from chronic low grade hidden inflammation. Check your CRP in a lab it will tell you about inflammation in your body.
The Psychiatric Antidepressant approach is a form of Insanity.
Thanks for the Post Stuart and being advanced enough in your thought and practice, and conscious enough to deal with and work in an extremely draconian and difficult field. Although I refrain from using words such as “disorder”, I still appreciate you for actually being there for the people.
I experienced akathisia for years during Paxil withdrawl. I had about 4 years without it then after being prescribed antibiotics it reared it’s ugly head again and lasted for 4 months that was 2017 .I have it again now since May 2020 it has not disappeared yet. I have been off Paxil 15 years !
“I have it again now since May 2020 it has not disappeared yet.”
Did you suffer any psychological issue that preceded it or it just came on ?
Fingers crossed it will pass as it has done before. This is evil folks.
I think it was lockdown and anxiety.
What kind of antibiotic did you take? Was there some kind of trigger for this recent bout? I had akathisia too and am likely going to need an AB as well, and I’m terrified of the akathisia coming back. I hope yours clears up really soon!
careful re “levofloxacin”. Some nasty long lasting stuff, and who knows if some of the stuff one suffers is permanent. Because often we don’t tie in future body problems to a drug that you might have taken years back. Insidious damages.
And of course, no one is a true scientist, including scientists. Science that does not know, does not create crap that harms and calls them “side effects”. Everything, including BAD effects are THE effects of the drug. But then they don;t want to call them “bad effects”.
It’s all rather convenient for them, because we cannot “prove” it was due to the drug, even if we know it to be true, and as “scientists”, they can say anything they like. It’s all in the title or licence.
Thanks sam. I think that one is a fluoroquinolone (sp?) if so I’ve heard they can do serious long term damage. I believe there’s a whole group of people organized against their use much like we have withdrawal forums for various drug classes, I remember seeing a doc a while back about ABs where people had been harmed.
Good point too re the negative effects too it always bothers me when they call them “side ” effects.
That’s a really good last point. The term, “side effect” is used incorrectly to indicate different conditions and so it can be quite misleading.
We see side effects, withdrawal symptoms, and persistent damage to biological systems. Too many medical providers fail to see the differences. This allows the error of calling a withdrawal symptom evidence of a relapse to a mental illness or even an emerging mental illness.
Why can’t medical providers observe this? I suggest that medical education is training as opposed to education. Training being “see this and respond with that”. Education implies learning to think and to solve problems. We’re getting the result of training.
The Latin words reveal interesting differences.
“Craft (1984) noted that there are two different Latin roots of the English word “education.” They are “educare,” which means to train or to mold, and “educere,” meaning to lead out. … The opposing sides often use the same word to denote two very different concepts.”
Okay, I admit that the difference has no impact on practice, I just feel a bit better knowing that there is a reason for inadequate medical-thinking.
The cry:”Why Don’t They Know” remains. Maybe they didn’t ask. Maybe they were trained not to ask.
I think they are trained not to look.
I took a short course of penicillin but any drug can bring it on
Yes, 9/11/2001 caused me to have brain zaps, despite the fact I’d been taken off an antidepressant way back in February or March of 2000. Planned societal stress, long after one has been taken off an antidepressant, can exasperate and bring on the common symptoms of antidepressant discontinuation syndrome. And I think akathisia and dyskinesia are still missing from the list of common symptoms of antidepressant discontinuation syndrome.
Antibiotics!!! Me too!! I hate to say this because I wish it wasn’t true, but I believe you if you feel they’re connected. That one is an issue the internet (and the doctor) would have you believe is a dead end, a no-cure zone, a permanent curse. Not so. I had 4 rounds of azithromycin 3 years ago, and I have a stable gut now. I hope you can find some gut healing and that is impacts your side effects… as commented below, this is indeed evil. My heart goes out to you, Paxil is another one that is extra ruthless on the body
I experienced tardive akathisia while tapering from a psychiatric drug. There are no words that can describe the agony of the intense physical and mental anxiety / anguish. To have your family watch you experience these symptoms which are out of your control and affect your thoughts and movements is traumatic for all. The horror story continued when my reported side effects were dismissed as emergence of more significant illness and prescribed more psychiatric drugs to tame the said effects. My worsening state included noise sensitivity, emotional numbing, depersonalization and derealization, a vocal tic, intrusive thoughts, 50 lb weight gain. I believed that doctors followed the Hippocratic oath, “first do no harm.” Four years later, I am still suffering from long term effects that have not diminished after stopping all medication.
I felt sick reading this. I believe you completely. I could try to “give advice” but that’s foolish. So I want to extend my sympathy and a piece of my heart. Traumatic for the witnesses as well, yes it is. And no, there actually are not words. There really are no words for it. Sending my love <3
I’m going through withdrawal akathisia after coming off Cymbalta. At this point I doubt the hell will ever end. I was prescribed an ssri or snri of one kind or another for the past 30 years. Eventually they added antipsychotics, shocked my brain, and said I was borderline. For some people there is no way back from hell. I have zero support. I’m completely alone and was recently denied a medical appointment because I wasn’t willing to “coordinate it with your psychiatrist.” So I guess it’s just survive until my body gives out. I’m 54 and physically broken so maybe it won’t be too much longer. No one believes me so I’ve walled myself off from the few people who still deigned to speak to me. The last friend I had said “stop going to that mad in America website. It only feed your anger and despair.” She compared it to an alcoholic taking a drink. I have no faith left in humanity.
That is so sad, Kate! I can say that I absolutely believe you. It is not hard at all to believe. There are others who will believe you, too. I think you can connect with those who really do understand. As for the rest, they can go ahead and take their drugs and deceive themselves. But once you’ve seen “the man behind the curtain,” you can’t believe in the Wizard any more.
Thank you, Steve. I was actually planning a move to the Springfield Massachusetts area because of the recovery Community there and the chance to be around people who had similar experiences. It seems that those are the only people who can really understand. Then covid-19 arrived and I’ve been in a state of limbo / paralysis ever since, wondering what to do. I’m grateful for this website and was so hurt by my friend’s comment that I cut off contact with her. Maybe a mistake but as much as I’ve tried to explain the situation to her, she thinks it’s something I can just put behind me. I completely relate to the idea of having a wolf at my heels and dealing with an existential threat. One of my biggest fears is becoming physically unable to care for myself and placed in a nursing home where I believe I would be in danger – definitely of being medicated and possibly of receiving more shock treatments against my will. When I was briefly placed in a nursing home after fracturing my ankle a couple of years ago I was made to take Wellbutrin in addition to the Zoloft I’d already been taking. I explained to the psychiatrist, who I saw once for 5 minutes, that Wellbutrin had made me very agitated in the past and I didn’t want to be taking it in addition to the Zoloft. She said that the Zoloft wasn’t working because I was still depressed and that whatever the effect I thought I got from the Wellbutrin, that was in the past so it would be different now. I was only in that facility for a couple of weeks and I can’t imagine what would happen if I was in a place like that long term. I don’t have any family. I’ve looked into the living will kind of thing, the thing that would give me some power to say I don’t want this or that done to me, but my understanding was that the living will needs to be carried out by a family member. So I don’t think anyone who is not in a similar situation can understand that this is not something in my past. I suppose if I get lucky and use a lot of self-discipline I might be able to get my physical health back to a better state, but most people as they age needs some form of assistance and that terrifies me.
Zoloft (Sertraline) is one of the worst drugs for akathisia – it inhibits two important metabolizing enzymes: CYP2D6 and CYP3A4 this is why people become toxic leading to akathisia and toxic psychosis. CYP3A4 is a sink enzyme that picks up what the other enzymes don’t deal with so if a drug inhibits that…..boom. The evil thing KateL, is that there has been a gene test to ascertain the ability of peoples enzymes for over 20 years, this test is now sophisticated enough to test for CYP3A4. But the doctors don’t want the patients to have the test and you can’t get it done without them signing a form.
streetphotobeing, that’s fascinating. And infuriating, and typical, that doctors and drug makers keep this information to themselves and even if people are able to dig up information about the drugs, they need the Dr to order the test. So typical.
This link may shed more light on that subject. I must read it again, but at cursory glance , it is just possible that Sertraline is inhibiting some of the same enzymes that are responsible for metabolizing the Sertraline. If so, the amount of that drug will certainly accumulate. Left unchecked, the built up drug level would be deadly.
(https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15547048/) Take a look and be sure. If this really is the case, your doctor should be reported to your state government agency . If you report facts and not solely your judgement, the agency will take steps to protect the public.
The concept of polymorphism deals with the different CYP 450 enzyme styles that we inherit. The different clearance rates ( ex. intermediate and extensive etc. explain a lot about inter-dose withdrawal and why we have different reactions to the same drug,
I am guessing that all of us firmly believe you. It’s just puzzling to see how we can use medical facts to correct the damage while the prescribing doc cannot. Still I wouldn’t bark at the doc. Walk softly and do what you need to stay out of harm’s way. You’ll get emotional support from us because most of us have been in similar spaces. It’s just not possible to comprehend the harm without having been there.
Medical docs really do learn about the CYP450’s. They just don’t connect it to the drugs that they prescribe. There’s a big and empty space there. Our job is not to educate the doc; it’s to save ourselves.
One important thing about the CYP 450 enzymes it the fact that everyone has them. Individuals have differing CYP 450 activity though. The intermediate metabolizes are somewhat slow to clear a drug or other toxin from he body. The extensive metabolizers are quick to clear drugs. This partly accounts for the degree of difficulty in tapering CYP 450 mediated drugs.
Although we inherit the activity, we can induce and inhibit the action. Foods and drugs can do this. Some antibiotics will induce the cYP 3A4 enzyme causing lower than expected drug levels. This can cause an extreme drug withdrawal state. I’ve been there. I didn’t catch on for three weeks. No it wasn’t Cipro or Levoquin.
Then there are the inhibitors. Grapefruit juice gets a lot of attention to the exclusion of the inducers.
My concern is unnecessary drug exposure. It seems that people who become dependent on a Benzo often had had a previous exposure. Might that be true of other drugs?
Okay back to the subject, I don’t need genetic testing to know my CYP 450 status because my benzo-experience let me know really quickly. One supposedly long half-life benzo was effective for four hours. and the short one lasted for two hours.
So when we hear that a benzo has a long half life we assume that half-life is a function of the drug and not of the “host”.
Okay half-life and duration of action are different things, but the question is the same.
I am a USA citizen. Recently I needed to explore living wills for both a friend and myself. An Attorney put my friend’s wishes into correct format, and I am the person designated to carry out those wishes. We are not related. We even live in different states.
Naming a trustworthy person to make “medical” decisions in case of any incapacitation might be challenged, but that challenge might be too much work for the bad guys.
In any case, it appears that, at least in this country, we are not required to name a family member. We can choose any adult.
As stated, the person you appoint can be subjected to threats and intimidation (“coercive measures” such as mock execution or threats of pack rape. See HCA decision 47 2010; ACC v Stoddart. No spousal privilege in common law in Australia, coercive measures can be used to obtain information from spouse [and this thus also includes other privileged conversations with doctors, lawyers, psychologists, priests. The dominoes fall, but don’t inform the public]) to have them act in the interests of the State where I live.
And as stated I had someone appointed to me without me even signing anything who was chosen by the hospital concerned when they knew that my chosen “next of kin”, lawyer, or my personal doctor would have made decisions that didn’t suit them in the circumstances (ie they probably wouldn’t have wanted me tortured, whereas the person who ‘spiked’ me did).
You’ve no idea how lucky you are to be a US citizen. I thought being British meant I would at least receive some support from my own government but ….. they too have been ‘duped’ by the fraud and uttering, and prefer to turn a blind eye for the sake of ‘friendship’ over the safety of their own citizens.
Can you tell us more about the community in Springfield Massachusetts? This is really interesting.
There is an organization called The Wildflower Alliance (formerly called the recovery learning Center) in Western Massachusetts that offers community and some support services for people with “lived experience”, which can include experience as a psych patient but could also include other experiences involving trauma, hardship (such as homelessness or addiction) or any kind of discrimination. There are a couple of other agencies in this area that have similar missions — they are all under an umbrella organization called “The Consortium”.
The Wildflower Alliance has four or five drop-in centers around Western Mass. One is in Springfield. A lot of things they offer have moved online now because of Covid, but during pre-Covid times, I understand, the centers were pretty lively with lots of groups happening and different events.
I’ve only been in western Mass for a few months and because of my age, my history and how long standing my own issues are and how much damage Psychiatry has done, lately I’ve been feeling like whatever services or community is available it is too late for me to really take advantage of it and turn my life around. However I think that for someone who is younger and maybe not in as dire straits as I am, it could be a really good community to be a part of. Had I known something like this existed decades ago, I definitely would have utilized it. I feel like I grew up in the dark ages and some events that happened very early on in my life when people didn’t talk about trauma and abuse the way they do now and when there was no internet kind of sealed my fate. I have an adult child who hates me and has cut me out of his life and that’s pretty devastating.
I moved here alone, not knowing anyone . I’m not good at making friends and too sick to work, but I can see how a younger person could really benefit from a community like this because it offers a counter narrative to the medical model and that’s something I never had access to. No one ever questioned what the doctors were telling me about what was wrong with me and why I needed to be on so many drugs and why I needed to be locked up and restrained and how my experience as a child didn’t matter. Everyone around me – friends family treatment providers – agreed that it was my fault I wasn’t getting better. So now that I know the truth about the drugs and the lie of psychiatry that’s a double-edged sword because there’s really nothing I can do about it and there’s still no doctor who would listen to me or believe me about all the damage done to me and my life by psychiatry.
I am glad though that I got out of Danbury Connecticut because that place is a hell hole and the staff at Danbury Hospital is extremely abusive and the police are pretty awful too. The last year or so that I was in Danbury I lived in fear of ever winding up at Danbury Hospital again for any reason because of the abuse I experienced there. So I’m glad to be away from that.
I feel for you KateL people were not supportive of me either when I had akathisia and many many other psych drug induced problems. You are not alone here.
And if people want to get on your back about visiting the site I’d simply stop telling them you visit here. Really you’re an adult it’s none of their business to be deciding for you what you do.
Thank you, ThereAreFourLights, yes, sometimes coming to this website and reading the posts and the comments is the only thing that reminds me that this is not all in my head. There is nowhere else I can get this kind of validation. As much as it pains me to hear what’s happened to so many others, there is a comfort in it as well because it tells me that all that time I suspected my symptoms were due in large part to iatrogenic harm, I didn’t have the faith in myself to follow through on that.
Your friend likes to blame instead of support. In truth, many people run out of things to say so they might say desperate things, but they should just admit that they are short of wisdom. That walling off is just an attempt to maintain some dignity for yourself and to not be defined and judged. And that becomes more important as we age.
I agree with Steve, once something has become illuminated, by that inside “aha” moment, there is no turning back. It is why many experience the “gee, I wish I knew then what I know now”.
Thanks, Sam. Yes, I think it does become a choice between maintaining some dignity or having some kind of real world human contact.
It’s a painful choice but necessary.
Good Lord!! The people who speak to you like that are heartless. I know the experience you’re talking about: when it gets “too real” and everyone (everyone!) leaves. Tragic, and weak of them. Although I doubt your strength is much consolation for you in your grief. I believe you, for what it’s worth…. as if there’s a reason to doubt you, considering what we all know now. You are not alone in the recognition of this evil thats been done to you, and others. 30 years!?! The industry really has no shame about what they do to us. Especially as women. As for the foolishness of people implying you’re “addicted” to MIA (?!?!), well some people choose to address their pain and grief and to learn and understand more about the issues they face, like you’re doing by surviving and checking in here. And others choose to shed that discomfort by insulting people for their reactions to physical torment and injury. Pitiful of them. We believe you, there isn’t doubt. Im sorry for your grief and your undeserved and horrible pain, Kate. <3
Thank you, KindRegards, yes, looking back I see how much misogyny entered into the treatment that I received. I had a good mind and found so many holes in the logic of my treatment providers, and wasn’t shy about saying so. This led to a lot of harm. I can see that now.
Actually it was probably even more than 30 years. It started when I was 17 and the board of education sent me to a psychiatrist because I dropped out of school and their numerous calls to my parents or ignored. She immediately put me on Elavil and I saw her once a week until the day I graduated at which time she terminated treatment because she stopped getting paid, and she left me with a full bottle of Elavil. I only learned the term akathisia within the last year and I’ve seen lists of drugs that cause akathisia or can cause it and Elavil is on it. I know there are so many for whom the drugging started even earlier – when they were young children. That the general public does not see this as a crime and human rights violation is beyond me. Now they have chewable adderal for children who are too young to swallow a pill, and the FDA is fine with this…I don’t get it.
Thank you for your compassion.
“No one believes me”
I do too.
“so I’ve walled myself off from the few people who still deigned to speak to me.”
Me too post being tortured and kidnapped, and having the ‘good faith’ defense applied via fraud, slander and psychological torture by people who have excuses ready for anything they wish to force on other humans without their consent.
“stop going to that mad in America website. It only feed your anger and despair.”
That comment got me thinking about false hope. Ever start getting the feeling that there are people out there that DO care? Don’t.
“I have no faith left in humanity.”
Me neither, though I do have faith in my God, who has come into the fire with me and has shown me why I should have no faith in humanity. They simply don’t give a shit. When people will openly stand and watch as the State tortures and kills citizens for complaining about public sector misconduct, we have made the transition to the point where there is no humanity left to have faith in.
Not unusual where there is a lot of money to be ‘appropriated’ by those in positions of power. I often consider the wave of popularity our Premier is enjoying at present and think ‘Hitler was a popular man at one time too’. And he used that popularity in much the same way, to pass inhumane laws that allowed he and his henchmen to enrich themselves at the cost of others. Any wonder they are considering laws that would deny anyone the right to make the comparison? And imagine, they have denied a wealthy man the right to access to court to seek remedy, and the public is cheering them on in this removal of a human right. Deny the person you hate the most their human rights, and you have denied yourself those same rights.
That is something I always think about too, that those who say that what was done to me was lawful, fine and dandy, are opening themselves up to being ‘spiked’ and having items planted on them for police to find and start off the cycle where they can be tortured and kidnapped by police. One in, all in. Or will the copy of the Criminal Code be found if it is certain Party members? It seems our ‘hard border’ closure (which still allows thousands to enter) depends on who you know, not what. Like back stage passes being handed out by our rock star politicians.
Thank you, Boans. Yes there is maybe nothing so painful as false hope. I have open myself up so many times to the possibility that I would be heard, weather by a doctor, a naturopath, a family member (no chance), a friend. I try to tell them what happened and I see the defense has come up in their eyes and then they will interrupt or tell me about some coping skill that I need to learn. I remember hearing Amanda Knox speak once and she said something about the fear that people have around her, that they are somewhat programmed to believe that someone and her situation must be guilty, because if she is innocent that means that this kind of thing could happen to anyone and that thought is too frightening for most people. I think a lot of people come to the conclusion that I am wallowing, feeling sorry for myself, playing the victim. That’s a part of it but I think a small part. More than that I want to be believed. Unfortunately this website as the only place where I feel that I get that kind of reception, without skepticism.
I really need to work on my faith in something, my spirituality. I need to find a way to make meaning from what has happened because the idea that it was all just random is very painful. I wish I could say that I’ve learned something from everything that’s happened but mostly what I’ve learned is not to trust anyone.
This may sound really out there. But I think there’s a child in me that is still desperately looking for Hope comfort and love. I had thought that that child was dead but now I see that as long as I’m alive that child will be too and I’m the only one who can comfort her. I need to find a way to be mother and father to myself.
It is difficult to live without hope. Hope means having some intention for the future to be better than the present. I hope you can find a way to connect with some kind of purpose and intention for your future, because you deserve to feel safe and well!
Thanks, Steve. I’m going to try to move, again, for the 5th time in 6 years. I don’t know where I’ll go… just far enough away that maybe my medical records won’t follow me. This way if I get sick I’ll be able to have a medical emergency or see a doctor and not face judgement based on what’s written in my medical record/medical rap sheet. I’d like to have a dog or a cat at some point. The idea that this is still possible is what keeps me going.
It’s almost like escaping domestic abuse. You need a new identity in order to escape the abuser hunting you down. Very distressing!
“It’s almost like escaping domestic abuse. You need a new identity in order to escape the abuser hunting you down. Very distressing!”
I’d go as far as to say it IS escaping domestic abuse. These people can invade your home at a time convenient to them, snatch you from your bed and subject you to assaults that are concealed as medicine. The law of no consequence to them, and their pride and narcissism proof that they believe they ARE gods. Community Treatment Orders allowing them to move in with you and start abusing you in your home. That’s domestic abuse all enabled by our Politicians who claim they are doing what they can to reduce it, and then kicking in our doors to get access to victims lol.
I look at my situation and realise that when my wifes abuse wasn’t getting her what she wanted, she called in reinforcements. The need to break the law in that regard of little consequence, these people are in that sense terrorists in that they want you to fear them. (of course I have no fear of them, it’s my God I fear. He doesn’t do magic tricks to conceal wrongdoing. Their fraud the equivalent of a three card monte)The law of no consequence to them, and their pride and narcissism proof that they believe they ARE gods. Police prepared to neglect their duty and enable them for their own benefit. Torture and kidnapping concealed with negligence, fraud and slander, and a public too afraid to even speak up. Public sector misconduct and police corruption being referred to oragnised criminals in the mental health system? I can see how that might work, for a while at least. And now, with a mental health professional in every station, police are free to torture citizens and have then immediately taken away for treatment of the trauma that causes. It will save the taxpayer police taxi service fees lol
And of course the prophesy has been show true to me. Look at them scurry and blame one another when their vile conduct is exposed for what it is. They beg for mercy and relief from the fire, and none will be given.
KateL, I’ve no idea if your a believer or not but I heard a very wise thing said about the four men in the furnace. They didn’t ask their God to take them out, they invited Him in to the furnace with them. Got no idea if it will work but have you asked?
Kate, what you express here at MIA often feels very familiar to me. I was severely depressed for many years before I found out I had and got treatment for lyme. And I had loads of trauma and other struggles on top of being physically ill that I had to contend with. Some days still kick my ass. I just want you to know you aren’t alone. Sometimes the only thing you can do is to doggedly put one foot in front of the other and have the temerity and defiance to persist no matter what gets thrown at you. Determination has seen me through when hope failed me. When the system fails you as it did to me, you have no choice but to save yourself. I will be rooting for you.
Thank you so much, kindredspirit. I think this is exactly what I need to do.
Yes, there is non-judgemental support here. This site is unusual because it does not exist to promote itself. It is here to promote you.
See above comments on manganese and vitamin b3. I believe it helps tardive diskenisia but not sure about akathesia. It’s worth looking into.
evanhaar, I will look into these Thank you. I have an entire cabinet of supplements but don’t take any consistently because I don’t really know what I need. My modus operandi is to see a naturopath maybe once or twice, then deciding that they don’t get it/are talking down to me/are trying to rip me off. I often purchase some supplements before I quit. When anyone takes a tone with me or when something about their demeanor reminds me of being in a and an appointment with a psychiatrist, I swear I going to a PTSD response.
Or I’ll read something and buy them online. The brain fog is tremendous – that’s part of the problem. But I will look into the manganese and b3. There are so many different B vitamins!
I do try to stay hydrated. Doing better with that.
Katel I know exactly about that PTSD feeling. I experienced it after trying to deal with my lung disease, due to the cruelty I experienced when going to the specialist or hospital. It took me a few days to try and put meaning to what reaction I was experiencing after time and again being treated like shit.
I tried to reason with them and the last time I went to ER due to shortness of breath, I told triage to put me in a psych ward for my shortness of breath. They were stumped and refused, saying in that crazy singing voice “we don’t think you’re crazy” and “you can’t breathe” I was too short of air to ask her if people in psych are crazy. I decided then and there that Canada was showing me just how far they will go to try and minimize a patient. And that without any real psych record or ever being a hypocondriac.
They showed me that even though one is not nor ever has been a criminal, that the medical people can treat you as one. And so they showed me that indeed they treat others who do have “diagnoses” also get treated like shit. And it makes no difference whether someone has a diagnoses or does not. Many doctors and nurses simply suffer from that weird personality that haunts them from childhood, where they end up being mean kids just because they now have licence. I have seen some very cold eyes, the same eyes that would have been the doers in assylums.
I never pretend that being a doc or nurse is not hard work and that we patients are not difficult, since we are chronic and we might become really scared. But they drove me underground, caused me to pick up stakes after 30 years in my home and become obsessed with how the rest of my life should look. And I want NOTHING to do with them anymore.
If they had simply told me that I was stuck with the symptoms and that it’s a shit disease, and if I could have found others beyond the respiratory rehab run by wide tooth grinning “professionals” that also tended to minimize. Doctors, nurses and patients COULD actually have decent relationships if they took into account that suffering is very real and even if they in their little heads think that their patient is “overreacting”, they do not know this for a fact. It just ends up being an ugly situation, and it is one huge reason why so many doctors and nurses are not satisfied with their jobs, they were advised not to “connect” with their patients, to let that “emotional” side not get in the way and it’s wholly detrimental to everyone. And whenever they respond to one patient in negative ways, it affects families.
Thx for responding. I wanted to try to assist one more time—quickly before breakfast. First, large amounts of vitamin C (I take sodium ascorbate from Nutribiotic, & some ascorbic acid, which is acidic) right before diarrhea occurs (through trial and error), can be enormously helpful for detox from all kind of things. There’s debate on dose & cheap synthetic C vs the C-complex that I talk about on my website, under the clinical nutrition section: http://www.evanhaarbauer.com; designed to make things more accessible. I take standard cheap synthetic but high quality from reputable brands. Whether or not my website interests you, I went ahead and searched ‘akathesia’ & ‘tardive diskenesia’(sp?) on the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine website:
https://isom.ca/jom/. Unfortunately it wouldn’t link to the results, but you can scroll down a bit and enter the proper search term you’re interested in, from years of publications, including highlights of the B3 & manganese. There seem to be many items that come up. I really like that website. Hope this helps.
P.S.: with me, with my nutrients I was getting better & worse simultaneously, which is odd. I still ended up brutally suicidal until my cheap generic ketamine, and this had more to do with my brain & soul. The nutrients, though, helped heal my nerves & muscles, including brain just not enough, and I believe prevented me from going into a catatonic-like condition of painful rigid muscles & non-fluid painful nerves. It was very slow, painfully slow, but built up over time by micro-changes cascading into macro-changes. This was through the simultaneous slowly stopping of cigarettes and refining nutritional supplements usually 3xday, after meals. Programs can be tailor-made to be either cheaper or more practical—such as a modified program of cheaper or less supplements taken less often, but you can’t go too low or less often if following some of the usual standards. BTW, I talk on my website about how I believe B3 (as niacin) may have caused permanent Rosacea on my face from flushing beet red every morning for 4 years. For many, the flushing stops/lessons with large dose, continual use, but for me didn’t. Sometimes in the literature you get: ‘if flushing becomes intolerable, the person will have to switch to a non-flushing form of niacinimide or inositol hexaniacinate’, or ‘if flushing doesn’t stop, they will have to switch’. In my opinion, they don’t highlight these enough. For me I ‘tolerated’ it fine. But I wish I had switched a lot earlier bc it seemed to lead to permanently dilated capillaries in the face and cystic painful relentless acne. I now have to take daily antibiotics until I can feel comfortable risking side effects of Accutane. I’ve also had to lower my doses due to headache, but took non-flushing forms for years without a problem. Too high doses of niacinimide for example can cause liver damage. I also experienced that and overcame it. So….some things to consider with B3! Also, manganese is a tricky one and doses are small; I don’t have a lot of experience with it. In terms of working with a ‘practitioner’, I completely understand your perspectives on that. ‘don’t get it, talking down to me, ripping me off, like psychiatrist triggering PTSD’….I’ve felt each of those things over the years!!!! F&@$. To leave on a positive note: ;)….
Thanks Evanhaar. Yes, the proper use and tailoring of supplements can be very complex, and hard to figure out with this brain fog. The last naturopath I went to, I made very clear, prior to signing up for a very expensive, “personalized” program, my history with psych drugs and the fact that I was in withdrawal from Cymbalta. I filled out all the paperwork, met several times with the “salesperson” on the staff (who called herself a case manager), but in my first meeting with the naturopath, he was surprised to learn that I “hadn’t been taking my meds” (he hadn’t read my intake forms, I guess) and tried to make it seem like I’d misrepresented my situation. I was outta there. Most of these people (most people) have never heard of akathisia, so how can they really help? It’s nice to feel like someone will hold my hand/can lead me out of the woods, but I need to find my own way.
I just did a google search on Cymbalta as a friend was telling me she has been taking it ‘since it was released’.
The first two search results contained these little gems
“This medication works by helping to restore the balance of certain natural substances (serotonin and norepinephrine) in the brain.”
“Duloxetine affects chemicals in the brain that may be unbalanced in people with depression.”
I thought this myth had been laid to rest according to Ronald Pies? I get it that the second quote says “may be” but …… really?
Note how cleverly they say that “chemicals… MAY be unbalanced,” but then claim that the “medication” helps “restore the balance” of chemicals that they later admit they don’t know are actually “imbalanced” (which is why they say MAY). It is a clever workaround of “truth in advertising” laws, but I think it should never be allowed, because by claiming to restore the “balance,” they are essentially asserting a truth that is actually not known to be true.
“It is a clever workaround of “truth in advertising” laws”
It reminded me of the three letters sent to me by the FOI officer when she realised that I wasn’t actually anyone’s “patient” and that her refusal to provide me with my medical records (and the conspiring with my wife to conceal criminal offences) was a further offence committed against the whole community.
One letter asking me “is this what you want?”, the second telling me “this is what you want” and the third requesting a signature from me. I realised later that what was being done was having me sign a document that could be used later to counter any claim that they hadn’t provided me with the information I had requested.
The truth (in advertising, eg “patients rights”) is that I had a right to those documents, but that the FOI officer had been conspiring to pervert the course of justice with my wife to conceal them from me on the grounds that I was a “patient” and she was my “carer”. Nasty piece of work when you realise they are doing this to people who ARE patients. Committing offences against them and then having them sign documents to conceal their criminality before anyone has the chance to look. Insider trading lol
When that conspiring didn’t work, she needed a way to conceal her deliberate negligence and deception from others should they take a look and realise what she had been doing (ie concealing the torture and kidnapping of a citizen for her colleagues). Noble corruption if you will.
They knew all along what documents I had requested. Though by pretending they didn’t, and then after 6 weeks of conspiring and gaslighting having me sign something to give the appearance that I hadn’t asked for them left them in the clear when they removed the other two letters setting up for the signature. Clever, and in all the years I served as a public officer dealing with ‘dodgy’ contractors I’ve never seen this one. Though I guess ‘dodgy’ contractors need to worry about going to prison for such dealings, FOI officers on the other hand are being encouraged in this conduct by the State (given the response from the Minister when she assumed the real set of documents had been retrieved by the police). All good with the fraudulent set sent to the Mental Health Law Centre, and the ‘cover your ass’ fraud by the hospital to conceal their misconduct.
My failure to sign and allow them the right to extract themselves from these offences probably the reason for the “formal investigation” (‘fuking destruction’) by the Operations Manager, and the distribution of the fraud to the Law Centre (the FOI officer obviously not prepared to go that far with her criminality, best left to someone else to ‘authorise’ the “editing” of the documents. P.S. make it look like a mistake by the indigenous girl in the office will you?).
I’d love to have been a fly on the wall when they were discussing these matters ‘behind closed doors’. Their mouths showing the contents of their hearts. Not, how do we help this person we have tortured and kidnapped but …. how do we conceal the truth and have him silenced.
It’s given me significant insight into the way cancer spreads, a gradual poisoning of vulnerable cells, until the whole organ requires removal.
And I guess given that these people were left in their positions for years after doing this to me, they have most likely done it to a lot of others as well. Many of them probably dead as a result of the chemical imbalance they cause with their gaslighting which tends to result in suicide when they are released from the hospital. Turn their minds inwards and convince them no one will help them (which is true of police who will actually assist these criminals disguised as ‘medical people’ with the right paperwork). The petty thefts of patients belongings etc after ECTs easy cover ups for the Operations Manager who puts the loss of valuable jewelry down to the memory loss from the ‘treatment’ (I like her style to be honest. What good are $2000 gold chains to a mental patient? And the Minister did state on Parliament “you can’t listen to them, they’re patients”).
I wonder about all the work committing these acts of fraud creates. I remember Billy Connolly speaking about how he always told the truth because he had such a bad memory, and couldn’t remember the lies he had told. Funny, but it was also a comment that had a big effect on me. What I said may not always be right, but it was the truth as I knew it. And of course I documented my truth all the way along, the hospital relies on the manufacture of truths post hoc, with fraudulent documents and selective lies to corrupted others. (have police induce an ‘acute stress reaction’ for me would you? Tactics used in Abu Ghraib standard operating procedure for our Mental Health Services)
And worst comes to worst, just kill them and be done with it. Who are they going to complain to if we do? Us? Got some bad news people, complaining about being tortured and kidnapped by the State is a mental illness, unless it is a State that we don’t like. You will be ‘flagged’ by your torturers and denied access to remedy, your complaining is a symptom of your illness, not a result of the trauma of being tortured.
I would simply like to leave, but even that right is being denied me. I’m fine with them torturing and kidnapping etc. I’d just like to live in a place that doesn’t think they should sign agreements (like the Convention against the use of Torture) and then torture and manage ways of concealing those acts rather than implement the protections. I’ve nothing to offer such a government other than my mental illness of not agreeing with them. Tell me i’m delusional for believing that such a place exists. tell me i’m delusional for not believing i’m alone with this thought that there are others out there who do not agree with citizens being ‘spiked’, arbitrarily detained before police interrogations? The use of the Mental Health Act to conceal public sector misconduct is an absolute disgrace.
Wow Katel. This is my story. Your replies are my story. Off of Paxil for 10 months. Family says I come to MIA to feed my insanity. Friends all left. I have regressed into a small child. The akathisia is unbearable. I have been on so many benzos, antiphychiotics and two other anti depressants since titrating off of Paxil (was on it for 27 years and my body started to resist it.) I feel like my life is over. I am so tired of being dismissed my all the doctors (and everyone has their own opinion, friends, family, but none of them truly understand what is happening to me). I am off all drugs now for 4 weeks as I od’d on the benzos cause i just wanted to sleep. But the drugs do not seem to work at this point. After coming of paxil, nothing works. The drugs may make be more anxious and add to my intense overwhelm. Some times, they work one night and then stop. So, I am living a tortured existence without any compassion and understanding. That is why I am on this site. I need to be validated. Every minute of my life is unbearable. Now all I think about is me and how long this nightmare will last.
Part of one of your comments: ” I think a lot of people come to the conclusion that I am wallowing, feeling sorry for myself, playing the victim. That’s a part of it but I think a small part. More than that I want to be believed. Unfortunately this website as the only place where I feel that I get that kind of reception, without skepticism.
I really need to work on my faith in something, my spirituality. I need to find a way to make meaning from what has happened because the idea that it was all just random is very painful. I wish I could say that I’ve learned something from everything that’s happened but mostly what I’ve learned is not to trust anyone.
This may sound really out there. But I think there’s a child in me that is still desperately looking for Hope comfort and love. I had thought that that child was dead but now I see that as long as I’m alive that child will be too and I’m the only one who can comfort her. I need to find a way to be mother and father to myself.”
I am so grateful that you posted your initial comments and took the time to so reply to all the comments. Your writing is super on point…at least to me. I relate to every single word! I wish I could write that like. I am so impatient and then dismiss myself.
https://rxisk.org/akathisia/ There is no mention of SSRI’s causing Akathisia initially only about on withdrawal. Well they can & due cause Akathisia and it is often ignored by GP’s & psychiatrists. These are very dangerous drugs and are being handed out like smarties by many Dr’s from everything from PMS to chronic pain conditions like ME/CFS/FMS & Endometriosis. They are being pushed on unsuspecting patients & there complaints are ignored & they are often forced to taken them against their better judgement for what was are physical conditions. Shame on the Dr’s who have caused so much damage to people lives where is your conscience in all that.
I had akathisia for years, I so wish I could go back and take smarties instead!!! And I agree, when starting an SSRI people can get akathisia then too (not termed tardive akathisia mind you).
I completely agree with Dr. Shipko that there is no adequate way to warn someone about what akathisia is like, as such I think the time has come to demand the drugs be grandfathered off the market.
Keep them around ONLY for those who need them to taper; can’t get off them; or to reinstate. Anyone who never had them before should be banned from getting them.
Yes indeed. I have experienced this and was told that it was just a side effect that would go away. I chose not to go back to ask more questions. Any complaints one has is not validated, so one really has to consider how much dignity we want them to steal from us.
I think it’s important to not just educate kids on the “don’t let anyone touch you if it’s not comfortable”, but also, don’t let anyone define you.
… don’t let anyone drug you either, as far as you can help it. But sadly Sam a lot of this diagnosis and drugging is already supervised by parents, well-meaning and otherwise. But I agree with you. And GOOD ON YOU for not going back to be dismissed again! I did the same and got a lot of flak for it. I understand why you didn’t waste more of your own time!
No mention??? That surprises me!! I think of akathisia as primarily a result of being on the drugs, not primarily a side effect of withdrawal (although I’m biased because I had my first akathisia from my 9th year on Prozac). It would be wise of them to include that.
And another thing I’m sure you’re familiar with…. calling the drug-induced akathisia “more serious illness” or “escalating symptoms” or (my favorite!!) “hypomania.” How can these doctors not know what the drugs DO? The age-old question. They have no conscience i guess, when they slowly learn to see patients as numbers, not people. Not to mention, women are less human of course, so doctors didn’t even have to invent THAT method of discrediting people themselves!
Can you help me with this? What is the evidence that tapering by a percentage of your drug dose will identify your safe dosage reduction? We see these percentage rules often; what’s their origin? Where is the evidence?
Bananas excellent point about “training”.
I think Bill Wells has brought that into conversation before in another blog.
Training is learning the material in front of you. And that is enough for
an assembly line, (which psychiatry really is) but certainly not good enough when dealing with
humans OR any animal.
It is completely biased and prejudiced and should be embarrassed to “train” their young and
bright minds in anything so draconian.
There are probably a few great minds that really want to speak up, but they can’t. For the same reason the subject of psychiatry can’t. It is their way or the highway, and what kid wants to throw out mom and dad’s money after taking up a seat in psych class.
“There are probably a few great minds that really want to speak up, but they can’t. “Yes, Sam!
I first heard the phrase, ” Go along to get along” from a retired school psychologist. Is a well-intentioned psychologist able to survive with ethics intact while serving this system?
Yes, obtain records for protection. Even non-psyche docs will accuse patients and record it. I saw a chiropractor claiming suicidal,idealization when the patient said that an injury couldn’t be ignored because living the rest of life would be disaster with the injury. Pediatricians ask children about their parents’ behavior! We need to proactively plan protection. Record everything by lawful means. If a conversation can be lawfully recorded, do it. Save records. Save old prescription bottles. Pharmacies will print out prescription records for you for past years. Records from phone carriers are more accessible today. These can prove stuff.
Now I live in the USA. We have these HIPPA restrictions. “Psychological” records are not accessible to the patient. So how do we prove what the bad guys recorded?
The psyche records are available to any physician whom you name. Just sign a form, and these records are sent. Once your records are in those friendly hands, these can be provided to you. Hey, I did it. I found, in the individuals’ handwriting, clear violations of law. I used it.
Today I maintain the records , both old tapes and hard copy, as insurance. And these folks know that I have an aggressive attorney. I want that reputation.
These are just somethings that I use to protect myself from medical mischief. It would be really good to hear other ideas.
Oh, and my personal policy is never to speak, for any reason, to any of these people. When it is one person’s claim vs another, the Mental Industry will be the default. So we must avoid contact. When the aggressor knows that we have representation ready to go, the bad guys are not likely to fool with us.
Yes, these people will lie. They will go along to get along, but when they commit prohibited activities and lie in writing, they can be placed firmly on the hook.
My policy; Walk softly, don’t attract attention, and maintain evidence in several places. Be prepared; then relax and get some sleep.
HIPAA should NOT prevent anyone from seeing their own records. It is designed to protect the CLIENT’S confidentiality. I’ve heard it interpreted in this way, but it is just plain wrong. There is no “confidentiality” of one’s on records from oneself. It is a contradiction in terms!
All true. All true, but we live with on the fly interpretations of law. You are darned right about the contradiction! There is no point in sequestering information that the subject already knows, but there is a nefarious point in hiding unlawful activity of the record-maker.. HIPPA enables this.There is a point in hiding the fact that one worker who wants revenge and caused other workers to go along to get along and create fresh records to support the charges. HIPPA enables this, too by hiding the records under the guise of protecting the patient. They are hiding criminal activity “for the patient’s own good”. Who decides this? It is a setup protecting the malicious activity of unethical workers.
So, I suggest recording the telephone threats where that is lawful. There is no other way to prove the malicious activity. I’ve heard: “It’s the patient’s word against theirs, and they have credibility”. Well, that credibility ends with hard copy evidence and recordings. Recording must be made according to law. We must do this by the book.
Where is punishment for the wrong doer? A bad doc can contact a new doc, unlawfully and slander the patient. The slander is used by the new doc to harm the patient as a favor to the former doc? HIPPA is used to forbids access to the truth, and here is another problem:HiIPPA has no teeth; it names no punishment for a violation, or it didn’t when I checked.
. So the mental health industry violates law continuously and faces no consequence. It can lawfully hide its deeds.
Of course there are more details to this subject. I deleted some specific incidents. I’ve been talking too much lately.
“They are hiding criminal activity “for the patient’s own good”. Who decides this? It is a setup protecting the malicious activity of unethical workers.”
I came to the conclusion that if they are ‘fuking destroying’ complainants (of human rights abuses) with ‘hot shots’ in the Emergency Dept, then this concealment of criminal conduct and human rights abuses may be “in the interest of the ‘patient'”. As Pte Joker said in Full Metal Jacket, “the dead know only one thing, it is better to be alive”. It also explains the lack of a ‘mechanism’ for making a complaint regarding acts of State sanctioned torture, when the victims do not survive the complaint process, due to ‘unintended negative outcomes’. A violation of the Convention, but from my personal observations they do not care one iota about this agreement they have ratified with the United nations, and are ‘fuking destroying’ anyone with a legitimate complaint before it is allowed to see the light of day.
“Well, that credibility ends with hard copy evidence and recordings. Recording must be made according to law. We must do this by the book.”
True, I note that when the child raping priests were being enabled, even they needed to ensure that witnesses were silenced, though their credibility was no doubt being damaged in the process. I note that the witnesses who have been threatened have no doubt had quiet conversations with others. On the surface Police and others may be of the belief that the matters are now dead in the water, but ……. we talk among ourselves, and know who they really are.
Even the recordings are of little use when police can simply state they do not have a copy of the Criminal Code, and simply refuse to take any documented proof of the offending (an offense in and of itself). I have much more than they have been provided, and in fact I have been told by Police that in some instances “it might be better they don’t know about that” (ie doctors ‘outcoming’ citizens who the State has tortured), and they then ensure they DONT take the documented proof and rerurn the complaint as having “insufficient evidence” while doctor sorts it out on the E.D.
Personally I don’t really have a problem with this, and I do have the stomach for it. I just find it strange that it is being done to someone who did nothing more than disagree with a psychologist. Maybe if I were a serious villain or ????? I don’t really agree with the death penalty but certainly wouldn’t enable it because someone doesn’t like what your saying because it’s true.
“It can lawfully hide its deeds.”
On this one we disagree. “It” is a reification of a group of people acting together who claim to be health care professionals. And the law does not allow them under any circumstances to hide their criminal conduct. This was an argument presented by National Socialists at the Nuremburg Trial, that they could lawfully deal with their ‘internal problems’ as they wished.
I disagree with such assertions vehemently. Whilst the State may wish to enable ‘unintentional negative outcomes’ and disassociate themselves with unconstitutional laws passed for specific purposes, their time will come.
I look at the methods used in my State which come straight from the playbook of the National Socialists and the problems they experienced at Dachau with Josef Hartinger. Sure they hid his report and the killings started again fairly quickly as a result of the enabling by Hitler of Himmler and his SS. We see a similar pattern where I live in the Voluntary Assisted Dying legislation allowing the ‘unintended negative outcomes’ to not be linked via ‘joint enterprise’ laws to our Legislators. their negligence a problem should someone such as Dr Lancee ever get the police to perform the duty they have been charged with.
I am reminded of our Chief Psychiatrists written assertion that he has the power to amend the Mental Health Act without parliamentary approval (and remove the human rights protections afforded the community), and the Enabling Act passed by the National Socialists which allowed the precise same type of behaviour (ie No need for laws, just do it and we will silence any complaints). Of course the Emperor is wrong, he has no such power, but are YOU going to question his delusional belief? I found myself having to explain what a burden of proof is to someone whose duty is to “provide expert legal advice to the Minister” AND the Minister herself. One would expect such people to understand the meaning and protection afforded by the words “suspect on REASONABLE GROUNDS”, and yet, they prefer the rewritten term of suspect on grounds we believe to be reasonable, thus removing the need for s. 26 Criteria from the law and enabling arbitrary detentions (terrible the things they are doing in China right?).
A land that values a rule of law? Well, only when they can “edit” the truth before the rule of law is allowed to be applied. The law perverted can not result in any semblance of justice. Ask any good Nazi.
In my State there is the ‘protection’ that a legal representative , on provision of a confidentiality agreement, can be provided with unredacted documents (with non disclosure information highlighted and a reason for the non disclosure to be provided) to ensure that human rights abuses do not go unnoticed. However, when public officers commit serious crimes and they have documented them, the State provides the ability to hospitals/police/ social workers etc to “edit” the documents before providing these fraudulent documents to the legal representative.
These ‘legal representatives’ then become unwitting utterers for the State and ensure that the victim of their human rights abuses and fraud is “fuking destroyed”.
Point out to anyone (such as a Member of Parliament) that the authorities are producing such fraud and “editing” their human rights abuses and criminal misconduct out of documents and the Police tell me that they can (a) refer you to mental health for your “hallucination” that police accept documented proof of crimes such as acts of torture by a Community Nurse, and (b) they can arrest you for having the real copies of your medical records, thus proving that the authorities are uttering with the fraud to other potential legal representatives.
What good is it me having the documents showing that I was made into an “Outpatient” by a Community Nurse (with a lie) so he could procure the services of police and have me snatched from my bed and tortured, if all it gets me is a ‘hot shot’ in the Emergency Dept for providing the proof of these offences to Police? And the legal fraternity quite happy to go along with the “edited” version of reality while this is done?
And with regards client confidentiality, my medical records were handed over from a Private Clinic to a Public Hospital AFTER I had been tortured and kidnapped as a means to conceal the human rights abuses. Simply a matter of doing whatever they want, and filling in the gaps with “editing” after should the victims survive to tell the tale.
“There is no “confidentiality” of one’s on records from oneself. It is a contradiction in terms!”
What they do here Steve is lead the “patient” astray by having them falsely believe they have a right to their documents, and then they call their ‘carer’ or ‘guardian’ and make suggestions about how to deny access to those documents. For example to deny me access to the documents showing I had been subjected to “procuring” (ie lie to Police about a citizens status and have them detained as a “patient” before ‘verballing them up’ and creating the appearance that you got your ‘referral’ FROM Police.) and was ‘spiked’ before being interrogated by Community Nurse AND Police, the FOI Officer of the Hospital concerned appointed my wife as my carer, and then told her that it might be best she not sign a release for my documents. The major problem was that the FOI Officer had NO EVIDENCE that I was anyones “patient” and thus was aware that she was conspiring to pervert the course of justice… but, nothing that can’t be fixed with some criminal fraud and some ‘chemical restraining’ of a citizen who can be made into a “patient” post hoc. Know how easy it is to make the response to being tortured appear to be a mental illness on Forms? I got one here should you care to examine it.
So my advice is to be very careful what you sign with these people. In my instance they made numerous attempts to have me sign documents that would have allowed them to have me ‘treated’ against my will for speaking a truth that they did not prefer (ie the “unedited” version of reality).
And this letter I have from our Chief Psychiatrist who it is patently obvious is uttering with the known fraud distributed from the hospital concerned? Not an issue, double down and keep maintaining the slander and gaslighting I have already been subjected to ….. for ten years now. Not a lawyer in the State that would touch it knowing what they are doing to anyone who dares question their “edited” version of reality. Believe me, i’ve tried (as many here would be aware). What does one do when the ‘mental health advocates’ are working with the human rights abusers to conceal the truth with fraud and uttering?
Know how many lawyers will use the defense of “They wouldn’t do that”, but don’t have the courage to actually look? Knowing that Police will threaten the safety of their families? Knowing that mental health services will “fuking destroy” them for even making a complaint?
Yes, I did say: “It can lawfully hide its deeds.”, I should have written,”Use of HIPPA” allows misdeeds to remain unknown”. That was my mistake.
Yes, most abuse is against law. However, acts against those laws will not see the light of day when these remain hidden from the view of the victim. Use of HIPPA, denying the right to view the medical record, hides the crime.
I can actually recite the parts of my state code that would clearly be a basis for prosecution. Yet, I know that specific mental health workers did violate the law. The psychiatrist can make deals with the government to prevent criminal prosecution. Oddly enough, my state government mailed me a copy of one such arrangement with the offender’s name in plain sight. I wasn’t even the victim of that unlawful activity.
Bottom line: There are several means of hiding prohibited activity of mental health professionals. One is HIPPA (in the USA) . However, you are quite correct; many countries do have laws against the workers’ bad acts.
“many countries do have laws against the workers’ bad acts.”
“Procuring apprehension or detention of person not suffering from mental illness or impairment
Any person who, by the production of a false certificate or other document, knowingly and wilfully, procures any person, not suffering from mental illness (as defined in the Mental Health Act 2014 section 4) or mental impairment, to be apprehended or detained, pursuant to that Act or any law relating to mental impairment, upon insufficient or unreasonable grounds, is guilty of a crime and is liable to imprisonment for 3 years.”
Problem being that a Community Nurse calls Police and lies to them that a citizen is his “Outpatient” (the very reason for the offense being listed in the Criminal Code). The conversation recorded and documented (ie Job Number from Police provided). The offense is known to have occurred, but …….. when police are prepared to commit further offenses to pervert the course of justice and refusing to perform their duty, then what good are these laws?
In fact, the only way the Community Nurse could fabricate the “reasonable grounds” was through an act of torture (ie ‘spike’ with benzos and create “acute stress reaction” via the use of police brutality). With his fraudulent Forms fabricated, the State is now free to torture further and the authorities will utter with that fraud to obstruct and pervert the course of justice.
Once he has ‘verballed’ the Forms, he can then later claim that it was police who requested HIM to do an ‘assessment’ of the victim of his torture (ie flip the script), and it enables arbitrary detentions and torture to both Police AND Mental Health Services. And I imagine from my experience, most of the victims end up dead.
Of course the problem in my situation was that police had subjected me to an act of torture as a result of the LIE told by the Community Nurse (so there is a good faith defense unless…….. they knew I had been ‘spiked’, and then well, their negligence and criminality arising from that becomes obvious), and the concealment of that trumps any offending committed by mental health services. In fact, police more than happy to provide material assistance and advice on how to ensure that the ‘unintended negative outcomings’ that are occurring from which they benefit are NOT investigated or, more importantly, REPORTED to the Public Sector watchdog.
The mandatory reporting an issue should their cover ups ever be exposed (thus a need for further cover ups by the people who claim to be the protection from such abuses). Because why would you bother reporting the misconduct if the documents have been “edited”, the witnesses silenced, and the victim of State sanctioned torture ‘outcomed’? Sure it would be an act of misconduct in and of itself but who would dare do anything about it? I mean someone might lose their job, the sin being caught in the act, and not the offending.
Problem with cover ups is as you suggest that it allows the misdeed to remain unknown to the ‘General Public’ (the State concealing these vile deeds under the false claim that its not in the public interest to know that they are using hospitals and associated laws to torture, maim and ‘outcome’ anyone who speaks truths they do not prefer). And it enables these people to threaten families and ‘outcome’ others while the public lives with the defense of “they wouldn’t do that”. I don’t know how to say that in German, but feel sure a lot of people uttered those words for some time during the war years.
Imagine if the public were aware of this “editing” practice, and the fact that they do not have the right to confidentiality with lawyers, doctors, priests, or even their own partners?
Still, I think a wise man once exposed the practice of spying on people to entrap them at every turn, whilst ensuring that ones own vile deeds went unnoticed. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. I think they are leading one another astray with their criminal conspiracies and exploitation of their positions of power.
I realised later that I have been looking at this issue of HIPPA from a very different perspective than yourself.
If the State were abiding by the laws, then they may find themselves being subject to lawsuits that would discourage acts of torture and abuse. The victims (or their legal representatives) being allowed access to their medical records and then being able to bring action for wrongdoing the ideal situation. Public officers making reports to the watchdog authorities (under mandatory reporting laws) to remove abusers rather than snuffing the victims of their misconduct and relying on the authorities to cover up should anyone notice (ie police not having a copy of the criminal code when a victim of State sanctioned torture has the proof).
What is being done in my State is that the documents that SHOULD be made available to identify abuses and human rights violations, are instead being used as a mean to distribute slander and defame the victims with their own medical records. Make any complaint and they will have the lawyers who have been provided with the fraud and slander distribute that fraud even further.
In fact, I have a letter here from our Chief Psychiatrist doing precisely this, taking what was known to be a fraudulent document used to procure the apprehension or detention of a person not suffering from a mental illness, and using it to defend the actions of the Community Nurse who tortured me. Can’t say he didn’t know, it was just that he made the assumption that the fraud could not be exposed because police had been procured to retrieve the documents that would allow that exposure.
It’s a clever use of the laws designed to protect the community, to actually turn them around and use them to fuking destroy victims of State sanctioned torture really. I mean who would believe that the Operations Manager would have the balls to send fraudulent documents to the Law Centre, never mind that the Chief Psychiatrist would then utter with that same fraud to ensure that human rights abuses and ‘outcomings’ that have been interrupted in the ED are concealed.
And the legal fraternity so accepting of the rock solid defense of “they wouldn’t do that”.
Anyone care to check yet?
“Use of HIPPA, denying the right to view the medical record, hides the crime.”
They are not denying the right to view documents, but using the system to distribute and utter with fraud. And they are using the victims own lawyers to aid in the commission of these offences.
It’s particularly nasty given that this is poisoning the relationship one should have with ones legal representative. Ie you should be able to trust them. Nothing that the National Socialists didn’t use though, spread mistrust among the ‘enemy’ and ensure that they can not even trust each other. That’s mental health services at their best, fuking destroying families with their poisonous conspiring.
Consider what I am saying carefully please. even if they do release the documents, they can be “edited” (which would be called criminal fraud if police could find their copy of the criminal code but …….) so your chances of success are zero.
They remove the crimes from the legal narrative, and leave what looks like the possibility of a civil action to lure the unsuspecting in and reward the parasite ‘legal representatives’ who will strip you of the shirt on your back.
That’s so much more effective than simply not releasing the documents. Who said the Roman colosseum was dead, were still feeding ‘Christians” to the ‘Lions’. And not a soul will provide any assistance other than to keep throwing you under a bus. Though I’m sure they justify it in their own minds with their “they wouldn’t do that’s” and not bothering to check.
well, some people with a duty did check, taking the uttering to the Chief Psychiatrist and then returning my email after they ‘unread’ it. Put well and truly in their place they were. ‘Advocates’? I think not. Quislings I think is the correct term.
Just to clarify how it works here in Australia
I make an application for my medical records under the Freedom of Information Act to the hospital concerned.
The FOI Officer calls my wife and arranges a meeting with her. At that meeting my wife is threatened and told that she is to deny me access to “third party comments” (which can be done lawfully, though the FOI officer SHOULD inform the applicant of what they require to access these comments, a signed release from the person who provided the comments documented by the hospital. Oh sorry, did we not tell you that? [Duty under the FOI Act]) showing that I had been ‘spiked’ with benzos. My wife is also requested to obtain some form of documented proof that I am someones “patient” to enable them to conceal that what they are doing is actually conspiring to pervert the course of justice. Doesn’t matter if it is done post hoc as it allows conspiring to be concealed as ‘care’.
This denial of access to “third party comments” is then used to remove the documented proof that the Community Nurse has called police and requested assistance with one of his “Outpatients” (a criminal offense). Thus some documents are provided to the “patient” in an agreement made with the “patients” ‘carer’. It makes them feel like they have rights and is good for their psychological health I am told. Also a great way to conceal human rights abuses.
So what happens when legal representatives (experts in Mental Health Law) then make an application for documents under the Mental Health Act which allows them to see the unredacted documents on provision of a “confidentiality agreement”? Surely they would understand the significance of citizens having their status changed to “Outpatient” and then calling police and requesting assistance with a non compliant “patient” to force a citizen into an interrogation, and then asking Police to act as a “referral source” once the target has been brought under the provisions of the Mental Health Act with a fraudulent statutory declaration. Surely these same legal representatives would also understand the significance of a citizen being ‘spiked’ with benzos without their knowledge before being interrogated by a Community Nurse and Police, and then arranging a doctor to write a prescription for the ‘spiking’ hours after these acts of torture occurred?
Well of course they would, and it wouldn’t be possible to provide them with the unredacted documents with these areas highlighted and ask them to keep this information from their client would it? I mean that would be putting your request for conspiring to pervert the course of justice to lawyers in writing. So they provide them with “edited” documents with the crimes removed and replaced with other documents making it look like the citizen had been a “patient” of the hospital for more than 10 years, and that the claim that they have been ‘spiked’ is nothing more than an paranoid delusion, you know “edited” documents.
The legal representatives make a complaint to the Chief Psychiatrist who goes along with the “edited” version of reality (uttering) and makes the false claim t hat he “forms the impression that the documents were applied for and provided under the Freedom of Information Act” despite there being three documents stating otherwise in the letter of complaint to him (Oh sorry did we make another mistake?) and then does absolutely nothing to rectify the ‘error’. The lawyers are then provided with a ‘poison pen’ letter to hand to me and NOT read due to the ‘errors’ contained therein (allowing them plausible deniability should the matters be exposed when the target is snuffed), and then utter with the fraud they have been provided with should any other lawyer decide to provide me with any assistance.
Of course it should have worked except that I still had the documents the hospital thought police had retrieved for them showing the ‘spiking’, but NOT the lie to Police by the Community Nurse to procure their services (but I note NOT a referral). It has become patently obvious that the hospital FOI Officer has made the false assumption that the benzos were mine, and that therefore the conspiracy to conceal this offense was nothing more than the sort of vicious psychological attack they do to ‘mental patients’ every day. As it became clear to her that this was not the case, not only did they need to continue to conceal the procuring of police for kidnapping, but they needed to retrieve the documents showing the ‘spiking’ as this now demonstrated acts of torture by both the Community Nurse AND Police, and then the fraudulent prescription written by the Senior Medical Officer at the hospital once I had been kidnapped and delivered to the Locked Ward.
One telephone call and the SMO was provided with my medical records from the Private Clinic by the clinic psychologist who had conspired with my wife to stupefy and commit an indictable offense, ie have me kidnapped. He then writes a prescription for the drugs I was ‘spiked’ with to conceal the acts of torture used to complete the fraudulent statutory declaration by the Community Nurse, AND the interrogation whilst stupefied without knowledge by Police.
Pretty clever really, and now it’s just a matter of silencing the complainant by ‘fuking destroying’ him and his family for daring to complain about the standard of their medical care. Easy when you can lie to police and have them provide material support to you in your criminal conduct. And particularly easy when they are aware that they have actually been ‘stooged’ into torturing a citizen by a Community Nurse who has lied and acquiesced his duty in regards the ‘spiking’ (see Article 1 of the Convention against the use of Torture).
So much for the respect for the law and human rights by this Nation. They should have sent Jamal Kashoggi here for ‘treatment’ because not a chance anything would be done even if his fingers turned up in the sewer system. “Insufficient evidence” and witnesses prepared to say “it never happened” once police have issued threats to them.
It’s actually quite a shock to ones psyche to collapse as a result of being ‘spiked’ and wake up to people in authority slandering you as being a violent psychotic drug abusing wife beater for doing nothing more than disagreeing with someone who happens to know a psychologist, and has knowledge of how to ‘work’ the system (having a husband who is a Shock Doc also helps should the victims complain to police, who will turn a blind eye to the ‘unintended negative outcomes’ that were occurring in the E.D. Pleased to announce they left the State the minute the documents they thought had been retrieved turned up in a Police Station. Unfortunate that Police have a knee jerk reaction to cover up rather than investigate matters. How many? …… double figures you say? That’s an awful lot of “editing” to be done.)
Hi Boans: From your input, I now see that the misuse of legal systems is far more extreme and calculated than I knew, and I thought that I knew a lot.
I’m glad you can see it. The ‘authorities’ did of course have to act once these people who were conspiring were exposed. But I have no doubt that (a) they were doing this long before I came along and ‘slipped through the net’, and (b) a lot of people were harmed AFTER I came along and ‘slipped through the net’. So their criminal negligence that resulted in harm may determine how they respond to these crimes. Ie they have motive (and means ie Police threatening peoples families) to cover up.
And they will no doubt be left to gain employment in other areas where they can exploit the trust the community puts in them. Accountability is at about the same levels as was applied to Priests who were raping children for 30 plus years, they get moved somewhere else to set up shop.
I find it almost amusing the explanations I have received for the negligence of lawyers. For example, I had no idea that when I was told that the ‘spiking’ with a date rape drug had been authorised by my doctor that they were not allowed to tell me who my doctor was. Which is a shame because what I KNOW to be true is that (a) I had no doctor, and (b) the Senior Medical Officer who signed a fraudulent prescription for the ‘spiking’ only did so hours AFTER I had been ‘spiked’ and interrogated by police. So the prescription was only written to conceal the acts of torture by the Community Nurse and Police. And it’s not like they are going to find ‘probable cause’ when they are torturing people right? In fact a Senior Sargent tells me they don’t even have a copy of the Criminal Code, and a Superintendent says that if a complainant doesn’t answer an email they didn’t receive within two weeks, then matters such as kidnapping and torture will not proceed any further. (Got this is writing if anyone doesn’t believe me). Refuse to accept the evidence/proof, and then ensure nothing is done as a result. And who are you going to complaint to? Especially when even the Attorney General can not tell you where a complaint should be made. I feel sure they have ‘insurance’.
But it is clever, for the State to use the victims own legal representatives and the Chief Psychiatrist to utter with the fraud they distribute as “editing”. And then deny access to effective legal representation by ‘flagging’ the victim and then slandering them behind their backs. Not the sort of conduct one would expect from the legal fraternity but ….. that’s precisely why it is so effective. Because “They wouldn’t do that”. And not a soul, even these so called ‘advocates’ who will even bother to check.
And now they can say, as a direct result of the criminal negligence of my own Union lawyer, that the time to bring action against these people has passed. So the victim suffers for the negligence of the lawyer I approached well before the time had passed. In fact I can even demonstrate her ‘stalling methods’, achieved with lies. I have no doubt that such criminal negligence is being rewarded.
Take care and consider what I am saying carefully. I am not the only victim of these criminals no doubt. Though I do believe that many of their victims do not live to tell the tale.
I wrote to the Attorney General and the current Minister for Health regarding this practice of “editing” legal narratives to conceal human rights violations and defraud legal representatives. This surely can not be described as “editing” to defend what is clearly criminal fraud? Unless of course Police provide material support to the criminals by referring the complainant for ‘treatment’ which I know for a fact they do. How simple is the concealment of Public Sector misconduct with mental health services as a weapon?
The response I received was that the Minster was “sorry” that I was still upset about my ‘referral’ and ‘assessment’. Okay, enough of the slanderous hate speech and failure to address a reasonable question but (reason having been removed from the law by the current Chief Psychiatrist who prefers human rights violating ‘suss laws’ for mental health ‘assessments’. Rather than the laws he is charged with protecting with the “Criteria” required to be met and a burden of “reasonable grounds” placed on mental health workers who wish to snatch persons from their homes by lying to police regarding their status as “outpatients”. Care to examine his letter?) ……….
The point being for his claim to be valid that I was ‘referred’ and ‘assessed’ would require a reliance on a document which is KNOWN to have been produced via the corrupt practice of ‘verballing’ AND as a direct result of a known act of torture (the ‘spiking’ and lie to police regarding me being an “outpatient” to have them cause an acute stress reaction and thus force me into an interrogation to allow words to be put into my mouth by the Community Nurse. I wonder how our Politicians might feel about being asked a few questions after being ‘spiked’ with a date rape drug and having a gun put to their heads demanding answers? It’s okay, that bit can be “edited” out at a later time should a need arise, which leaves me wondering about the “editing” of legal narratives where our new “Voluntary Assisted Dying” laws are concerned. Can breaches of the law there be “edited” too?).
What else could they possibly have than this known fraudulent Form 1 statutory declaration which was produced from the interrogation whilst I was stupefied without my knowledge to make such a claim?
And thus the Minister for Health is in breach of the Convention against the use of Torture by using this document with which to defend his falsehood that I was lawfully ‘referred’ and ‘assessed’. This is simply NOT the case, and they were aware of this FACT when they sent the fraudulent set of documents to the Law Centre. (removed the ‘spiking’ and the lack of a referral to conceal the lie to police that I was their “Outpatient”)
Each State Party shall ensure that any statement which is established to have been made as a result of torture shall not be invoked as evidence in any proceedings, except against a person accused of torture as evidence that the statement was made.
The Minister is using a statement which is known to have been made as a result of me being tortured (and as a result of fraud), and cares not one iota about the way in which the legal narrative was “edited’ to conceal that act of torture and lie to police regarding my status to have them force me into an interrogation so he could produce a ‘verballed’ Form 1 minus any valid referral source (ie I was NOT a “patient” as defined by the Mental Health Act, though telling Police that I was his “outpatient” and then requesting a ‘referral’ from them after he had ‘verballed’ me seems to be the method of obtaining arbitrary detentions by mental health services. Quite clever having Police brutalise someone who is unaware the Police think they are a ‘mental patient’. I’m sure many here understand the significance of the slander associated with the term ‘mental patient’).
So on what grounds is the Minter basing his claim that I was ‘referred’ and ‘assessed’, rather than ‘tortured’ and ‘kidnapped’?
Amazing what can be achieved when you care nought about the Convention against the use of Torture huh? Using the results of torture to defend the acts of torture is a DIRECT BREACH of the Convention.
More than happy to debate the validity of the Form 1 and the reasons it was obtained via an act of torture with anyone. It appears that it is only those with something to hide that prefer to simply utter with the fraud and maintain a lie with an argument from authority. And a few ‘unintended negative outcomes’ rather than rely on the facts as established by a “Formal Investigation”, threats and intimidation from Police of witnesses, and some “editing” of realities for legal representatives seems to be the order of the day.
Yes, Sam, I think it’s hard for medical people to deal with the system they’re a part of, they must see every day how inadequate it is. And then there are the bullies, and the ones who will treat patients like criminals when just acknowledging that a person is in pain, scared, exhausted – would go a long way.
“…they caused me to pick up stakes after 30 years and become obsessed with how the rest of my life should look…” – this is where I am now. I gave my landlord notice and am busy packing.
I really hope that there is someone out there that you can connect with as a provider and consult. I think if providers could be honest about their own fears and frustrations it would go a long way to develop a “relationship” with their clients.
That is exactly what everyone does doctors, friends, family – they treat us like criminals. They are for the most part all bullies. They are so ignorant and do not understand the pain we are in. They say, you look fine. Yes, on the outside. Except my face and tortured distorted face and dilated pupils tell a different story. It shows how sacred and afraid I am. The few family members who I reached out to for help a few months back, who i was estranged from for many years, are the only people i have. But their dismissal and shaming comments torture me even more. They have high narcissistic qualities as do most of the people I have encountered in my life. And this includes all the 100’s of doctors, who i just wanted them to help me. They tortured me slowly and added to my craziness. I have lots of trauma starting in childhood, 2 major brain injuries, a lot of losses that no one understands and I am no allowed to grieve. It goes on and one. The lack of support from anyone on this planet is too much. I feel so alone and not a part of. I just want to get better without drugs. To be around compassionate and understanding people who are there with you in your struggle, no matter how tough that struggle is. I feel for you Kate. You written words are profound. And so grateful for all the reply comments.
Everything you say here rings so true to me. I have experienced everything you describe and continue to experience it, even in communities that profess to understand and honor people with “lived experience”. I guess I have too much lived experience – more than three and a half decades worth – and I’ve seen the worst that this horrible system has to offer. The labeling the gas lighting the restraints the ridiculous drugging like they’re trying to subdue a wild animal ECT TMS and then threats of more ECT if I can’t paste a smile on my face and “use my skills” while going through absolute hell with no support system at all. I lost everything, my home, my job, my ability to work, any sense I ever had a safety or belonging. Of course I lost my physical health because who can stay physically healthy when they’re being made you take toxic drugs and ridiculous amounts for decades. Everything I had worked so hard to achieve was ripped away from me when they decided I was borderline and that’s why I didn’t get better after ECT. There is no justice for us.
I saw a Netflix documentary the other day called The Crime of the Century about what Purdue pharma did to create the opiate epidemic and how Purdue and the other drug makers were enabled by the FDA by the medical community by the criminal justice system, they all benefited while people were dying. I wonder when will we get our documentary. Probably never. Is Psychiatry any less of a crime? They do all the same things. And it’s mostly the same players who benefit while patients suffer. And just like Purdue tried to spin this narrative that the problem was not their drug the problem was the people who abused it, that those people were dirt. Psychiatry is no different. Anyone who was harmed by psych drugs gets slandered and defamed and blamed and shamed and discarded. Oh she’s not better after all those druggings after all that help? Well she must be treatment resistant and non-compliant and have lack of insight into how mentally ill she really is and she needs to get with the program and comply and listen to her doctors. I’m alone in this world which is exactly what a DBT therapist predicted. But I am not going to shut up. I kept silent for decades. It got me nowhere just more abuse. Why does the entire medical system stand behind these people who drug and label so carelessly so irresponsibly? They are all complicit.
I will once again make a public appeal for Consular assistance from the British government (or any other government which would accept an appeal from a person who has been tortured and then had the Articles of the Convention repeatedly breached to conceal acts of State sanctioned torture) as a result of years of refoulment by the Australian government which is a Nation with a history of “gross flagrant and repeated human rights violations” (the large numbers of unaccounted Black deaths in Custody speaks to this ‘history’)
The ability to deny me my right to effective legal representation and retrieve my own property to leave this place a testament to the lengths these abusers will go, and use their positions of power to silence their victims.
1. No State Party shall expel, return (“refouler”) or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.
2. For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.
Was it not the United Nations that made a statement pointing out that Australia’s Mental Health Laws ARE a violation of human rights? And that the ‘treatments’ MAY constitute torture? How much more mass can one get when the whole country is being subjected to such laws and violations? And let me say that the documents were not “edited” because they have not done anything wrong. this was done to conceal their human rights violations and acts of State sanctioned torture.
Though I understand if the British government is prepared to ignore such requests because of these abusers hiding behind the authority of the Crown. Perhaps another Nation iis prepared to take what is left of a good man now they have ‘fuking destroyed’ him for speaking the truth and exposing their crimes. And with the State having such a rock solid defense of “they wouldn’t do that” then what need is there for documented proof of what I am saying. Police simply denying the ability to even make a complaint (refuse to take the proof and return the complaint as “insufficient evidence”) while others sort the problem out with an ‘unintended negative outcome’ in the Emergency Dept.
I would have thought that British subjects being given the ‘Jamal Kashoggi treatment’ by people acting as Officers of the Crown might have been able to have a right of appeal to the Crown. (Acts 16:37) I was NOT an “outpatient” of this hospital and was tortured to obtain the ability to put words in my mouth and conceal their criminal conduct. And I was ‘fuking destroyed’ by the State for daring to complain about their conduct.