Marci Webber Granted a Conditional Discharge

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Ever since 2012, when Marci Webber was found not guilty by reason of insanity for having killed her four-year-old daughter, she has been detained in Illinois mental hospitals. Mad in America has run several posts by Cindi Perlin about Marci, for she committed the homicide while deep in a psychotic episode that erupted while she was on a cocktail of psychiatric drugs.

On September 18, an Illinois county judge ruled that Marci Webber no longer meets the legal criteria for being kept locked up in a mental hospital, and that the Illinois Department of Human Services must develop a plan for her conditional discharge.

Judge George Bakalis did not rule this way because he agreed that Webber’s homicidal act was due to the drugs. However, the proceedings do tell of a case history that lends reason to believe that is so, and they also provide confirmation for her complaints that she was punished and abused at Elgin Mental Health Center because of her refusal to take psychiatric drugs there.

Psychiatric Drugs, and the Long Path to Homicide

In 2010, Webber was 43 years old and had no prior history of psychosis. However, she did have a longtime history of use of psychiatric drugs, and struggles with depression, anxiety and insomnia—struggles that she sees today as due in large part to drug-induced akathisia.

Born in 1967, Webber entered the Army in 1987, serving on a Pershing Missile crew headquartered in Germany. After an honorable discharge in 1989, she earned a bachelor’s degree in communications from the University of Illinois. Her first daughter, Mallory, was born in 1992, and not long after that, she was in a custody battle with the father of her child. Her physician prescribed her Paxil in order to “take the edge off her stress,” she told MIA.

Webber worked at various advertising jobs during the next several years, and, while on the Paxil, she continually suffered from anxiety and insomnia. In 2000, she gave birth to a second daughter, Madison, and as she was struggling with the stress of taking care of a newborn, her physician prescribed her a higher dosage of Paxil. In 2001, she entered Albany Law School, and with her mood and sleep issues growing increasingly worse, a psychiatrist added Zyprexa to the Paxil, as this was supposed to dampen mood and help her sleep. At some point, Wellbutrin was also added to her cocktail.

In January of 2002, she was unable to refill her prescriptions because of a problem with her insurance coverage, and the abrupt withdrawal from her cocktail sent her into a tailspin. After she held a knife to her arm in front of her husband, she was committed to a hospital.

The rest of that year unspooled in an ever more chaotic way. Her husband left her, and her drug cocktail grew to include Zoloft, Neurontin and Seroquel, with this latter drug a replacement for the Zyprexa. This cocktail often induced excruciating akathisia, and she now began drinking alcohol to temper that pain. Twice more that year she voluntarily went to the hospital in the hope of getting relief from all of these stresses.

In the years that followed, she took a medical leave from Albany Law School, having finished five of the eight semesters. She took care of her two daughters, living on social security disability, and in 2006 had a third daughter, Maggie. During the next years, she stayed on a cocktail of Zoloft, Wellbutrin and Seroquel, with other drugs thrown in now and then. The dosages of the three main drugs were often pushed higher.

At the end of May in 2010, she traveled to Illinois to attend the high school graduation of her oldest daughter, Mallory, who by that time was living with her father. However, she had forgotten her psychiatric pillbox, and soon she was in the grip of severe withdrawal symptoms, and her thoughts took a decided paranoid turn.

In the previous 12 months, there had been several incidents at the Catholic Church she attended, one of which involved a seminarian improperly touching her four-year-old daughter. Now she became more obsessed with that risk to her daughter, and then, in late October, she abruptly went back on a newly prescribed combination of psychiatric drugs. She resumed taking Zoloft, at a high dose, and a psychiatrist replaced the Seroquel prescription with one for Ambien. This last drug is known for the “weird” side effects it can cause, including “hypnosis, amnesia, and hallucinations.”

“Ambien was the kicker,” Webber recalled. “It was that and the akathisia. The pain just went through the roof. You will do anything to end it.”

Webber’s thoughts now ran wild. She became convinced that an Internet sex ring was going to kidnap her four-year-old daughter and make her a sex slave. The kidnappers would then kill her in a Satanic ritual, which, Webber believed, would doom her to eternal Hell. In November of that year, while visiting her mother in Illinois, Webber killed her daughter to save her from that fate. She then tried to killed herself.

“I thought I was sending her to heaven,” she said.

Cindi Perlin, who had been Marci’s psychotherapist for years, immediately had one thought when she learned what had happened: It had to be the drugs that triggered her homicidal act. “At that point I had known Marci intimately for 8 years and had known her to be a concerned and loving parent to her children,” she wrote, in one of her MIA posts. “Marci had never been violent or psychotic before.”

Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity

Webber spent two years in jail, and then, at a short bench trial in 2012, she was found not guilty by reason of insanity. After a short time at Chicago-Read Mental Health Center, she was transferred to a mental hospital in Elgin, Illinois, and it was there she decided to take a stand and refuse to take any more psychiatric medication.

Her noncompliance led to years of mistreatment and harassment, with staff at one point encouraging her to kill herself. She was assaulted more than a dozen times by other patients.

However, once off psychiatric drugs, Webber’s psychotic symptoms abated, which provided her with legal cause to petition for her release. Under Illinois law, a person found not guilty by reason of insanity may continue to be detained only as long as that person is a danger to self or others, and is in need of inpatient care. Webber first petitioned for discharge in 2014, but after a series of delays, the court denied her request in 2017.

In June of 2018, she filed a new petition for discharge, and hearings commenced in May of 2019.

The Testimony

Webber presented testimony from two psychologists, Toby Watson and Dathan Paterno, and one psychiatrist, Gail Tasch. Collectively, they administered a battery of tests, and they all concluded that Webber suffered from no major mental disorder, and was not a danger to self or others. Although she may have suffered from depression, anxiety and symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder in the past, they concluded that any ongoing symptoms of this type could be attributed to her confinement and hostile treatment at the Elgin facility.

The state, which was seeking to continue her confinement, presented testimony from a psychologist, Lesley Kane, whom the court had appointed to interview Webber, and from psychiatrist Richard Malis, who works for the Illinois Department of Human Services. While both argued Webber’s petition for discharge should be denied, they did so for different reasons.

Kane told the judge that although Webber had not displayed any psychotic symptoms for some time, she had “traits” that supported a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder. People with this disorder, she told the court, often had “marked mood swings,” were “frequently agitated,” and prone to  “extreme sarcasm” and “enduring bitterness.” If Webber were released, she would be at risk “for developing more symptomatology in a community setting,” Kane said, and thus should remain a hospital inpatient.

Videotape of Leslie Kane’s interview of Marci Webber, Nov. 20, 2018

 

Malis gave Webber a different diagnosis. He testified that Webber suffered from “hallucinations and delusions and schizoaffective bipolar disorder,” and that she continued to be “a threat to herself or others.” Yet he did acknowledge that even though Webber had not taken medication in many years, she did not show any signs of psychosis.

The head “night-shift” nurse at Elgin Mental Health Center, Terry Nicholas, also testified to an incident that told of a type of institutional lying by Elgin Mental Health Center about Webber’s behavior. At one point, after Nicholas had written in Webber’s chart that she was “pleasant and cooperative,” his superiors, upon reviewing the chart, told him that this had upset Dr. Malis. In his decision, Judge Bakalis detailed the sequence of events:

Mr. Nicholas was informed that Dr. Malis was not pleased with this charting and did not want pleasant things regarding petitioner reported as it would harm his intent to petition the court to obtain an order for forced medication on the petitioner. Nicholas testified that Dr. Malis himself expressed his displeasure directly to him stating that he could not obtain the court order with those types of comments in the petitioner’s chart. This testimony was unrebutted by the state.

Judge Bakalis noted that something similar had come up during Webber’s first petition for discharge. During the earlier proceedings, two Chicago-Read staff had testified that they did not think Webber was mentally ill and that she should be discharged. Yet, both had previously signed “treatment letters” that were sent to the court stating that, in fact, she needed to be kept in a confined environment. This seemed to be another instance of medical staff presenting a false account of Webber’s behavior to the court, the judge noted.

This prior testimony and the present testimony of Mr. Nicholas seems to indicate to the court that employees of the Illinois Department of Human Services (IDHS) are directed by their superiors to endorse their superior’s diagnoses even if they disagree with it. Although the testimony at the prior hearing was not while petitioner was under the care of Dr. Malis, it calls into question the manner of which IDHS makes reports and what pressure is placed on employees to conform to what supervising doctors feel should be done even if they disagree. This causes the court pause to consider whether the ninety-day reports which have been submitted to the court are completely accurate regarding the petitioner.

The Judge’s Decision

This was the mix of testimony that Judge Bakalis needed to sort through to make his decision. He had heard three professionals testify that Marci Webber did not have a mental illness, a fourth testify that she had borderline personality disorder, and a fifth that she had schizoaffective bipolar disorder. However, everyone seemed to agree that she had not shown symptoms of psychosis since stopping her meds six years earlier, and there was also testimony that Webber’s noncompliance so irritated Malis that he had scolded a facility nurse for writing in a chart that she was “pleasant and cooperative” off meds.

First, in his written decision, Judge Bakalis dismissed the testimony of Webber’s three expert witnesses as of no account. The court, he wrote, “cannot agree with petitioner’s experts that she does not suffer from mental illness, clearly, she does.”

Second, he stated that it was Kane’s testimony that he found convincing. “The court finds that the analysis of Dr. Kane is closest to what currently afflicts the petitioner, basically borderline personality disorder. The petitioner clearly needs to have good mental health treatment and therapy.”

Third, he concluded that Webber “will never receive that [good] treatment while in the custody of the IDHS,” and under the care of Dr. Malis. Judge Bakalis wrote:

The court specifically asked Dr. Malis if rapport was necessary between a psychiatrist and a patient in order for treatment to be effective; Dr. Malis acknowledged this was necessary. He further acknowledged that no such rapport exists between himself and the petitioner because of petitioner’s distrust of him and his position that she cannot improve without psychiatric medications. When asked by the court whether a different psychiatrist could be assigned to petitioner in light of this lack of rapport, Dr. Malis stated this was not possible.

The court has concerns about the treatment relationship between petitioner and Dr. Malis. Clearly, petitioner is uncooperative with Dr. Malis and Dr. Malis sees no hope for petitioner improving without her taking medications even though petitioner has been in remission of psychosis for a number of years without medication.

Having assessed the testimony in this way, Judge Bakalis concluded that while the traits associated with borderline personality disorder, such as “being a difficult, disagreeable and narcissistic” person, may “make a person unlikeable” it “does not establish a person to be a danger to herself or other.” As such, it does not, “in the court’s opinion, require inpatient attention. Many persons with the same attributes are found throughout society.”

However, while Judge Bakalis attributed those traits to Webber, he noted that she had “not shown physically violent behavior toward staff or other patients. In fact, the petitioner has been the subject of abuse by other patients without retaliating.”

In sum, Judge Bakalis found that the state had not shown that Webber was “in need of mental health services on an inpatient basis.” He ordered the Illinois Department of Human Services to develop a plan for her “conditional release,” which will require her to get mental health treatment in the community and avoid all use of non-prescribed drugs, cannabis and alcohol. The conditional release will be for five years, and if Webber complies with all of the conditions during that time, she will be “fully discharged” from the custody of the Illinois Department of Human Services.

A Chronology of Psychiatric Drugs

While there is a well-established link between drug-induced akathisia and violence, and also a risk that SSRIs can trigger such behavior, the possible cause-and-effect link in Marci Webber’s case is clouded by her long use of psychiatric drugs without ever becoming violent or psychotic before 2010.

But the chronology is certainly suggestive of that link. Abrupt withdrawal from a cocktail of drugs that includes an antipsychotic is known to put one at risk of experiencing a psychotic episode, and it is notable that she killed her daughter shortly after going back on a cocktail that included Ambien, with all of its possible weird mental effects. And as she remembers it today, the pain from the akathisia became intolerable.

Then, once she withdrew from the medications in 2013, her mind cleared and she has not shown signs of psychosis since.

In his decision, Judge Bakalis revealed his own ambivalence on this point, which can be seen in his use of the word “merely”:

The court continues to have some concerns as to whether petitioner completely understands that her prior conduct was caused by her developing mental illness and not merely caused by the medications she was taking at the time of the offense.

Although her discharge is conditional, with a plan yet to be set, Webber is is now looking forward to the possibility of a new future. “I did this for every chemically sensitive patient forced to endure horrible or dangerous side effects like akathisia,” she said in a telephone call to MIA. “I am grateful that I am leaving the hell I have spent years in, and for the support of [all those) who faithfully contributed to my cause.”

***

Mad in America hosts blogs by a diverse group of writers. These posts are designed to serve as a public forum for a discussion—broadly speaking—of psychiatry and its treatments. The opinions expressed are the writers’ own.

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104 COMMENTS

  1. Glad to hear she’s ‘free’. Doesn’t sound as if she’s out of the woods, yet, tho.

    I can also relate; however my felony, committed while taking Paxil, wasn’t thought to be due to ‘mental illness’ until I left jail homeless and without any support and suffering from a cold turkey withdrawal of Klonopin. You should see how many in jail are on psych meds!!!

    I then met the ‘system’. The system labelled me cuz I had done my crime in defiance of the patriarchial and corrupt family court system. I had nowhere else to go to for support.

    Psychiatry is a system of social control. Period.

    Thanks RW, for following up on Marci’s situation. I wish her healing and resolution.

  2. Thanks Robert for this update on Marci Webber’s situation. It is incomprehensible how people are put not just on one psych drug – but a whole cocktail – when damaging effects of these drugs on the brain are not understood and get labelled as “mental illness”. There are so many disturbing issues clearly showing the extent of institutional lies and betrayals and it’s appalling other staff are coerced by narcissistic superiors to conform to the same rigid attitudes and betrayals. Particularly inhumane and disturbing is: “Her noncompliance led to years of mistreatment ad harassment, with staff at one point encouraging her to kill herself.”

    Marci showed good insight in not wanting to continue taking psych medications and also in not wanting to meet with Dr. Malis. But of course with a super-sized ego and penchant for control it’s no surprise he did not want anything positive to be written about Marci. The average person has no clue these dishonest, exploitive and unethical behaviours by “mental health professionals’ happen more often than not. Thanks for reporting on these events and I wish Marci all the best in the future.

  3. Historically the criminal law has made an allowance for involuntary intoxication, but not for voluntary intoxication.

    But how about complete deception and the doctor’s prescription pad, telling you that the drugs are good for you, and that you need them. Is that like involuntary intoxication?

    • In my view the drugs make it so that the client no longer has a core, they have no center, they have no learned ability to maintain a center.

      So it is rather like a doctor prescribing for someone crystal meth.

      My Pentecostal Molester was on psychiatric drugs, and under the care of psychotherapists.

      I told the DA that “learning to live in one’s skin is a life long project”. And I explained that because of this mental health care, this guy had not even started this. But also, because of his church, they operate on professions of belief and professions of allegiance. So these also work against living in one’s skin.

      So I gave examples of people, maybe they have a new job that they don’t want to lose. Or maybe their spouse has threatened divorce, or CPS has taken their kids away.

      So sure enough, they go to church, they come forward and they make all the professions. They are Saved, and they will not drink or use any more.

      But still, they don’t really feel saved. And then they are told that their salvation status depends upon proselytizing, and that they have to call out the name of the idol, all the time.

      It isn’t really faith, it is fatalism.

      And then say they do lose the job, or the spouse leaves, or the children are not going to be returned. Usually that will mean that they are primed for even deeper depths of drinking and using, as they believe now that they are beyond salvation.

      One woman talks about her brother, died while homeless. “Well, he stepped forward many times, to be cured of his addictions. But now I have to wonder whether he was Really Saved or not.”

      I would go on to try and convince the DA and the Court how dangerous this church and its outreach ministry were, and that the three daughters were having to oppose it in coming forward with the truth.

      If they had not done this, they might well have become targets for the outreach ministry. And others will not come forward unless they see that survivors are believed and that there are consequences for perpetrators.

  4. Marci Webber’s daughter is in heaven, the same heaven where untold numbers of innocent victims of psychiatry now dwell. While Szasz made it perfectly clear that the so-called “insanity defense” is itself insane, it is also perfectly clear that this terrible tragedy was caused by psychiatry and psychotropic drugging.

    Webber’s story provides yet more evidence that psychiatry is not something that can be reformed, rethought, or simply criticized. It is a pseudo-scientific system of slavery that destroys the lives of many innocent people, including children, the homeless, and the elderly. Isn’t this the very definition of evil? Why put up with it anymore? Slay the dragon of psychiatry.

      • “Deliberate creation and management of a huge underclass!
        Psychiatry exists to create scapegoats for society.

        They differ from the KKK, neo-Nazis and similar groups in that they create the group to be persecuted. By drugs and labels these mad scientists impose an alienated life of sickness and isolation on their test subjects. They induce insanity with their mind altering drugs and then label the victim as SMI to ensure everyone will hate and reject them forever.

        There have been madhouses since before the Industrial Revolution but the people often got better. Now pharma psychiatry ensures no one does.

        At least 95% of all the SMI would not have gone nuts if they had avoided those morally bankrupt liars to start with. Modern psychiatry exists to ensure permanent alienation from the rest of humanity and altered mental states/cognitive decline from iatrogenic brain damage.

        Isolation, confinement, degradation, urging a sense of futility, and pharmacological manipulation all constitute psychological torture. Used for deliberately breaking those already emotionally healthy and sane.

        Yet these are standard treatments which our mental system uses on those already distressed and it claims these methods to be restorative and healing. Somehow. The SMI are not real human beings (according to shrinks) and torture is good for “defectives.”

  5. “The court continues to have some concerns as to whether petitioner completely understands that her prior conduct was caused by her developing mental illness and not merely caused by the medications she was taking at the time of the offense.”

    One of the most disturbing things about this article is the complete scientific baselessness of the judge’s reasoning. He gets competing diagnoses from five different professionals and picks the one he thinks, for whatever reason, conforms to some measure of reality. It’s scary to think about being subjected to such an absurd and disempowering process (again). It’s like justice in the Middle Ages.

      • How would we react if our doctor told us, “Well, I can’t say for certain what’s wrong, but we think you have a little tiredness disorder, plus a rashy skin disorder and an insomnia disorder plus a headache disorder and a right leg numbness disorder. We have a drug for each of those conditions, but it won’t cure them. It might keep the symptoms under control, but the drugs will make you gain weight and possibly raise your risk of early death through heart disease and/or diabetes. And we still don’t really know what’s causing all of this.”

        I think we’d all realize we were visiting a charlatan.

          • You are right Cindy. My dad has neuropathy and the doctors ruled out Parkinsons and about everything else.

            They admit they don’t know and put him on anti-inflammatories and pain killers for PRN use.

            Psychiatry is the worst though.

          • This is true, of course. Medical care is the third leading cause of death in the USA. But I consider it even more egregious when the “conditions” being “treated” aren’t even objectively definable, and actually represent social assumptions and biases rather than medical conditions. It’s bad enough we have to trust doctors to treat actual illnesses. I sure don’t want them “treating” my emotions and thoughts!

          • I’m sure our current Minister for Health has studied the work of Josef Goebbels because he doesn’t seem to be able to stay on track with definitions. His attitude seems to be that if he simply doesn’t refer to the matters as what they are and describes them in nice terms that suit he can enable torture and kidnapping as being ‘referral’ and ‘detention’.Convenience killings become ‘Assisted dying”. Not very original Minister, the National Socialists did the same thing by calling it ‘delousing’ with unintended negative outcomes. Hey look, you guys said the same thing about all those necks that were snapped during restraints at one of our hospitals eh? They were “unintended negative outcomes” and minus a confession from the guy practicing his Martial Arts pressure techniques that’s the way they’ll stay huh.
            Still flick away the insignificant insects complaining Minister, you will never be held to account i’m sure.
            “Sorry Boans that you remain distressed by your referral and detention in 2011”. Well not really Minister I remain upset about being drugged without my knowledge, tortured and kidnapped and then having my community turn their backs for fear of what a government that does cover ups with killings in the ED. And even when the cover up is exposed its business as usual and just go on like we didnt even notice. Because thats just what we do as the Operations Manager of one of your hospitals said if you complain “we’ll fuking destroy you”. Got to be cheaper that lawsuits for wrongful deaths considering how many of them your covering up.

  6. This is curiously synchronistic, in that I just watched a relatively recent Hollywood movie entitled “Side Effects,” involving a woman who kills her husband while on SSRI’s and the ensuing legalities, replete with genuinely evil shrinks foisting drug research on their “patients.” Worth a look.

  7. Bravo to Marci! How can we truly know what a person is like if they are diagnosed in captivity? I don’t think anyone should be diagnosed based on inpatient behavior, especially if they are enduring abuse, by staff or patients. Even animals will act differently if they are in cages. Birds pluck their feathers out. Rodents will eat their babies.

    As such, it does not, “in the court’s opinion, require inpatient attention. Many persons with the same attributes are found throughout society.”

    Sounds like the staff there at Elgin have bad morals, are unpleasant and abusive, and lack insight.

  8. This is a two-hour interview, and I’m about 15 minutes into it. Already they can eliminate any schizo diagnosis. If her thoughts were that disorganized she wouldn’t remember all those names and phone numbers. That’s impressive! Also, she shows interest in the therapist’s life. That, too, is impressive since people steeped in the MH system are also immersed in themselves. I suppose the therapist here felt obligated to give her a dx by default. I’m very impressed with Marci’s desire to “not rely on the government” and get a job. This is so amazing.

  10. I imagine there are some states in which withdrawing from psych drugs would not have been permitted in an institutional setting. My experience in the hospital was not one in which I had the slightest say about the psych drugs that were laid before me. You took them voluntarily, or they were forced on you via hired thugs syringe and needle. If this is the case, then certainly laws need to be changed to protect people from protracted sedation and the harm that goes along with it.

    I’m glad she was able to withdraw, and that she didn’t face severe consequences as a result. I’m also glad the judge, relatively speaking, ruled in her favor. I would hope that if it is a matter of progressive legislation insuring peoples’ rights, with Illinois being more progressive than many states, other states also get on board.

  11. Marci was subjected to psychologiccal torture in Elgin: no fresh air, sleep deprivation, regular body searches, room searches, harrassment from the staff. Clearly she was targetted as the staff did not think she was compliant. I wonder how many other “mental health centers” are like this. It is not a place where therapy takes place. Marci needs financial help and has a fundly page that was started when she needed funds for legal advice. This same fund can be used to help her get on her feet once she gets out. Please consider contributing. She really appreciates it.
    https://fundly.com/marci-webber-legal-fund

  12. Great article Robert!
    I was ecstatic to read Marci will soon be free. My heart goes out to her on her new journey in life. I admire her strength & courage to keep fighting. When she gets settled, physically, mentally, emotionally & spirtually, I hope she starts writing her story. It will be one the hardest things she’ll ever do. Psychiatry may have silenced her but she deserves to be heard, everyone needs to listen. People are suffering indescribable hell trying to get off their psych meds, most notably benzos. Hundreds of dead inmates are littering dirty cell floors across America right now after being denied their benzo upon admission then mentally tortured, many physically tortured, to death. The public really needs to start paying attention.

    Thank you again Robert, you do such remarkable work.

  13. “The court continues to have some concerns as to whether petitioner completely understands that her prior conduct was caused by her developing mental illness and not merely caused by the medications she was taking at the time of the offense.”

    A statement showing how incredibly brainwashed and deluded our court system and judges are.

    I’m glad Marci was set free. “It had to be the drugs that triggered her homicidal act. ” It was the drugs, not her “developing mental illness,” a so called “mental illness” which stopped “developing” once she went off the drugs.

    I guess our judges still haven’t heard that all the DSM “mental illnesses” are “bullshit” and scientifically “invalid?”

    https://www.wired.com/2010/12/ff_dsmv/
    https://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/directors/thomas-insel/blog/2013/transforming-diagnosis.shtml

    Here’s the medical proof that the antidepressants and antipsychotics cause psychosis, via anticholinergic toxidrome:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxidrome

    And locking up all the mommies who have concern for our children, and that our society has serious child sex trafficking, pedophilia rings, et al problems.

    https://www.amazon.com/Pedophilia-Empire-Chapter-Introduction-Disorder-ebook/dp/B0773QHGPT

    Because our society doesn’t want to confess that we do have these problems, and the “mental health” workers have been covering up our society’s child abuse and pedophilia problems, en mass, for over a century.

    https://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2019/01/23/18820633.php?fbclid=IwAR2-cgZPcEvbz7yFqMuUwneIuaqGleGiOzackY4N2sPeVXolwmEga5iKxdo

    https://www.madinamerica.com/2016/04/heal-for-life/

    Maybe it’d be better for our society, if our police, legal and judicial system started arresting and convicting the pedophiles? Rather than continuing to have the psychologists and psychiatrists be in charge of covering up the child abuse and pedophilia crimes, by defaming and poisoning the child abuse survivors and their concerned mothers, en mass? While the pedophiles and their sex trafficking rings run amok.

    We can’t fix our society’s problems, if we do not admit the problems exist.

  14. I’m getting old and cranky. This woman has been through Hell and back, and I’m glad that there is light at the end of the tunnel. I believe that no mother (or father) in her right mind would want to kill their own child. But, shouldn’t she have figured out that too many drugs “bad”, her life was a train wreck, starting law school was biting off more than she could chew, etc. etc. This was not going to end well for her children. I also question why her psychologisgt wasn’t cluing her into the fact that she was on too many chemicals. The idea of too many drugs being taken is not new nor confined to psychiatric drugs. Common sense should tell people, and has told people for many years, not to take too many prescription drugs (or non-prescription). This isn’t about psychiatric abuse, it’s about common sense, and who is helping people to understand that the drugs they take may be too many?

    • Psychologists exist to enable psychiatry now. For the most part. With a few exceptions they have sold out to the bio-bio-bio model. Why I want nothing to do with any.

      Suggesting that it’s possible to take too many drugs would be “pill shaming.” Can’t have that.

      Yes suicides and crimes occur. But acknowledging pills were at fault might cause (GASP!) non-compliance. And undermine the credibility of psychiatrists as honest-to-gosh-specialists and Real Doctors. Which would be a tragedy. 😛

    • These are great and relevant questions, Rossa.

      I think it’s more about how social programming dissociates us from our heart and spirit wisdom so that we are virtually clueless about what to do, what we want, and in what direction to go–other than, perhaps, toward what society would expect and “approve,” which may bring us at least an illusory sense of belonging, but hardly to a sense of who we really are and where we most want to be. As a result, instead of clarity and fulfillment, we run into perpetual dead ends and chronic disappointment, chasing illusion after illusion.

      We at least have to be in touch with and honor our emotions, otherwise we have no way of knowing how something makes us feel, we just go by the programming without checking in with ourselves. That will always lead to trouble of some kind, and eventually, to suffering. Synchronizing body, mind, and spirit is necessary to be connected to our inner guidance/intuition/personal truth, which is wher we can find peace of mind and a sense of personal empowerment, that we are, indeed, in control of our lives and destiny, not to mention, our own minds.

      Living in oppression is confusing and disorienting because it is the norm to lie and confuse and disorient people, all kinds of justifications are made for it. Living in fear distorts reality, and all choices will be made from fear rather than from inspiration. “Common” sense is not necessarily someone’s personal sense of truth in the moment.

      • Well said, Alex.

        Living in oppression is confusing and disorienting because it is the norm to lie and confuse and disorient people, all kinds of justifications are made for it. Living in fear distorts reality, and all choices will be made from fear rather than from inspiration. “Common” sense is not necessarily someone’s personal sense of truth in the moment.

    • “who is helping people to understand that the drugs they take may be too many?”
      Drugs? They are not drugs they are (magical) medications that can only do good because a doctor prescribed them.
      Too many(much)? People can not take too much of the God they worship. Don’t you want to be more like a perfect God?

      “shouldn’t she have figured out” What the FORK??? how do you figure something out without the thing that does the figuring?

    • I believe people are in so much emotional pain they turn to a doctor for help and will do anything the doctor suggests. For example, what happens to common sense when a person who is horribly suffering agrees to have electricity run through his/her brain in a desperate attempt to end the pain.

    • Dr. Mary Dyer-Martin prescribed Marci’s drugs. She should be held responsible. When you put yourself in the hands of a doctor, you supposedly trust that doctor, too. Once you are on one drug, you might end up “out of it” and unable to comprehend that maybe you are on too much or too many. Breggin refers to this as “spellbinding,” and it’s very true. When you are drugged up, it’s the doctor’s responsibility to recognize this. It’s the doctor’s responsibility not to overdrug a patient. Now, if a person buys drugs on their own, then the responsibility is theirs and theirs alone. This is why some of us advocate for the abolition of the Power of the Prescription. When you are out of it from drugs, you’re likely to do anything the doctor says.

  17. Heh, to say, in regards Marci believing that if her daughter would be killed in a satanic ritual, that her daughter would to go hell: I’m not saying that their aren’t satanic cults or that such killings don’t happen, nor do I know what was going on with that church, but I think I can say safely that when someone is killed in a satanic ritual, that they don’t end up in hell for eternity.
    The idea of hell is something that was conjured up as a mind control method, because when you make people think they are under attack, then you can control them. And saying that there are such fabricated principles governing whether someone gets to Heaven — whether they go to church or not, or even whether they have ever encountered one particular church’s teaching of something that as truth can only be universal and not changed by difference between cultures — this is along the same lines of mind control. Neither does it make sense. And it doesn’t work no matter how good one is being following the guidelines that never could be true would God be of love rather than using fear to control people.
    It all seems quite responsible trying to prevent such a horrible things from happening, but that would have to be truly something that would happen. I don’t think that’s the case. And I think that it’s actually investing in the beliefs that people need to be controlled by fear that quake and nurture the kind of dark fear based ideas and mind control that satanic cults come from.

  18. I’ve listened to the whole two hours of an interview, and I wonder whether anyone else has, and comes away from it quite numb, staring at the walls.

    Marci actually has insight into what went on with her, she even talks about religiosity; and then also very clearly how the “medications” not only took away her ability to see danger, but made her extremely paranoid and out of control.

    I have no idea what The psychologist Kane is going on about, other than, when someone actually has insight, and expresses the consequent emotions in a logical manner, that Kane can’t deal with it, and comes up with this strange diagnosis of borderline. And then to top it off, instead of acknowledging all of the abuse, that Marci very clearly portrayed, she acts as if the danger is in letting her out rather than keeping her in. Kane said: “If Webber were released, she would be at risk “for developing more symptomatology in a community setting,” Kane said, and thus should remain a hospital inpatient.” which sounds like some prefabricated sound byte in order to get points from the system as if it’s working. Look here, we lock these people up, we’re safe. What they’re locking up is the truth from getting out.

    And from this point everything breaks up. Marci actually says that when someone is psychotic and a danger to themselves that they should be hospitalized, but she wasn’t. (!?) In reality, I think she had been hospitalized quite a bit (voluntarily also), and thus she was on a cocktail; and for the present system to function as a place for people to go who are psychotic, because otherwise they are a danger to themselves or others, the whole system would have to change, would the result not be what is HAS BEEN for the past so many years. For this present society to be safe people need to learn how to not get so alarmed that they fall back on the very system causing most of the danger. And she also mentions what kind of clearing she had in the military for nuclear weapons. And so, when someone is involved with a system where would ANY of such weapons be used, it could lead to the end of most of organic life on the planet, and she says this to point out that when they are given special privileges this points out their sanity rather than their insanity. It’s mind boggling. There IS no sanity there to me, and it’s much worse than what psychiatry might do, initially, which isn’t creating weapons of mass destruction that when someone pushes a button most of organic life on the planet can be destroyed. And she’s actually pointing out that someone like her could get clearance, and for all we know could end most life on the planet because otherwise it might go to hell.

    THAT’S how dangerous the present mental health system is, along with the drug company cartel.

    I hope she gets out and points that out, VERY CLEARLY, without trying to make out that she wasn’t crazy, because she was given clearance to be allowed to facilitate most organic life on the planet being destroyed!

    MY GOODNESS!

    • By the way, I was reminded that there are checks on things like this, and that there’s more than one person involved when any decision about nuclear weaponry, but to me it really is just a point to make as to what’s considered crazy or not.

      I mean, she can say that she had religiosity, and this is acknowledged, but could anyone say that they had been brainwashed to think along the lines of what might be called militariosity (or militarism or whatever the word would be), and that could cause extreme alarm regarding quaking the idea of an enemy (in this case the devil, hell and satanic cults), and that effected their thinking causing paranoia?

      • good observation. I might add, the creation of these weapons of mass destruction is seen by many as normal.
        People see it as defending the country and freedom. Some societies might think of the keeping of nukes, as paranoia.
        I think weapons and meds are similar, but meds are supposed to hit the smallest particles on the planet, particles that might not have anything to do with the problem. Both are destructive on a psychological and physical level and can cause widespread fallout.

    • I dont understand this comment about Ms. Perlin. Ms. Perlin was not even seeing Marci at the time. I think she said that as she knew Marcis personality from years before and that Marci was a good Mom and would never in a million years harm her child.

      What I see as more heart breaking, is that Mary Kyle Dyer-Martin, DO who had the absolute duty to understand and monitor her current patient while negligently prescribing such mind altering drugs that resulted in a childs death walked away from this with no shame, no medical negligence claim, no criminally negligent homicide claim. How many children will have to die for something to be done to the negligent Doctor?
      Furthermore, Cindy Perlin went above and beyond any therapist I have ever heard of to help this total injustice. Mary Kyle Dyer- Martin, DO the prescribing doctor did NOTHING. Maybe she learned not to prescribe such dangerous drugs. Or maybe at $400 an hour she still is.

  20. CINDI PERLIN deserves an enormous amount of gratitude and appreciation for all that she has done on this injustice. I am so so sorry Cindi that there is a comment that uses the word heartbreaking about your involvement. I have a feeling the person who wrote that may have only read the article. The details of your involvement that I know about put you in my ANGEL category of people on this planet. And the angel types are very humble, so I would not expect you would list everything you have done. I would just like to say I am a psychiatric survivor, tortured for 32 years , and I have never come across a professional that went so far above and beyond to help any one. So, THANK YOU CINDI PERLIN for working through all the frustration you did to help Marci when none of this was even close to your fault. I really dont understand that comment. It does seem to me like a reason people dont help. Not only do you get no appreciation but you get blamed. I am so very sorry Cindi. Please dont give up being an angel.

  22. I have news from Marci. The place she is at, she says, is better than Elgin, or shall I say less oppressive, but still, it’s a hospital. She has six more weeks there. After Marci spoke up and revealed to another patient what a court order was (education, I say!) she then had any “privileges” revoked and she’s restricted to the “unit.” She says it is very difficult there as it’s one of those “acute” psych wards, where clearly, she feels out of place.

    She says every little bit counts. If you can call, or send a letter, she would be very happy! She sounded very clear, upbeat given the circumstances, and unfortunately for them, she remembers the various offenses against her very well. They can’t use their most effective weapon, drugging, against her, so they’re clearly trying other means, legal or not, to attempt to silence her.

    Every bit of support counts!

  23. I read some posts to Marci recently but when she heard the misinformed comment regarding Cindy Perlin she asked me to respond. Marci said comments like that don’t unify, they divide. This cause can bear no division no matter how small. Cindy did more for her than anybody. Marci’s heart breaks because she couldn’t show Cindy the appreciation she deserved, especially when they discussed differences involving the attorneys.

  24. Cindy Perlin, Terry Johnson Esq and his friends, MIA, Eillien Griffin, Jean Merritt, Leigh Gage, Stella in Arizona, Julie and Lori, and the courageous individuals from IDHS like Terry Nichols, Dr Craig Jacque, Dr Luci Menezes, Dr Banerjee, Dr Obaide, Dr Bernice Paige and her experts Dr Toby Watson, Dr Fathom Paterno, Dr Gail Tasch( who is an incredible angel like Cindy) and Judge George Bakalis together have saved Marci’s life and given her hope of a future.
    Yet there are still others at Elgin that are experiencing abuse and torture that need a cohesive strong group to ignite an effective civil rights movement for the mentally ill. Please continue your support. Marci looks forward to her release in November. Marci says love one another and don’t hate. Perceptions are not the truth or knowledge. Just as dreams are not reality. Judge not lest ye be judged for it destroys our humanity.

    • This is a sad story with a very tragic outcome for a little girl but I believe psychiatry and their damaging drugs are to blame. Thank goodness for these wonderful and courageous people that helped Marci. They all deserve accolades for their courage, compassion and humanity. I give very high praise to Cindy Perlin for all she has done for Marci as I believe many therapists would not want to get involved. It is easier to walk away from someone when the chips are the down. Much respect to Cindi Perlin.

  25. Marci needs a therapist in the Chicago area that agrees with her views about herself and the drugs. I think every body needs a therapist that can honor ones views about ones self, but we know that does not happen. I am not exactly certain of the details, but Marci told me Dr. Tasch (thank you) and Dr. Paterno (thank you) who testified on her behalf are not allowed to be her providers according to the Judge or Court. Dr. Paterno has helped pulled me out of 32 years of drug induced internal torture. After his help of just 1 1/2 years I dont think life has to suck anymore. If any therapist could help Marci that way that would be amazing. I can not even imagine living through what she is. I dont know how her care is to be paid for/insurance etc? If there is not a good way to pay up front, I know Marci needs her complete freedom and then could most likely pay some one back. Chicago Read number for Marci that worked yesterday 773-794-4036.

    • A lot of nontraditional therapists work through Skype or other videoconferencing venue. A licensed one can’t work outside his/her state, but unlicensed ones can, and they’re often better than the licensed ones. They don’t take insurance. Some are priced outrageously and others are reasonable.

  26. For those of you who know Marci, please know she still needs support. She is now hoping to get out December 11th but that date is not sure. Please call her at 773-794-4036 or send her a card of encouragement to Chicago Read Mental Health Ctr., 4200 N. Oak Park avenue, Chicago, IL 60634. The judge wants proof of a bank account, so she could use financial help also. You can send a check to Terry Johnson, a lawyer who has helped her. His email is [email protected]. She appreciates anything that you can do. (How is she supposed to have a bank account?) Thank you.

  28. HEY, I AM FREE! Sort of…with restrictions. Ain’t America great? FDA and all-UGH…Well, now I have to figure out what to do for work and how to live life again (over and above figuring out technology)…with PTSD from “mental health treatment” … but I DID walk right out of that courtroom free, PRO SE, in defiance of IDHS’ wishes for me to fill out “discharge paperwork” at CRMHC – thank God, my lawyer friend told them “No, she has an order releasing her” and we went to the Drake for a petite filet, creme brûlée and some awesome ambience then to the apple store – my email is [email protected] – PLEASE say HEY (Steve, etc).

    I am proof the need for transitional housing (more segregation for the labelled) is way overrated and not necessary if you have support (THANK YOU – Terry, Bob, Cindy, Gail – and of course those at MAI – may Julie Rest In Peace – because EVERY little bit did help me survive).

    I have not taken a single Tylenol or ibuprophen (I took nearly daily for stress headaches) since living in facility HELL!

    If you all have any suggestions for reinventing myself please offer them at my email ([email protected]) I need income, etc.

    I am working on a book about what really happened because the media did not get it right – and most of the poignant evidence did not see the light of day (you have to read between the political lines of the decision and consider the context of the lack of evidence Justin Schwartz presented – one of many reasons I ended this PRO SE.

    I had never imagined I could be surrounded by such mendacious individuals especially those who went to med or law school. Albany Law School never taught or prepared me for what legal horrors I had to experience. The State had 2 attorneys, Jennifer and Joseph Lindt and wasted around 2 million dollars that could have gone to striking teachers…and now I have to defend an appeal – more tax money wasted! BUT I AM OUT!

    AND…I would like to reiterate (those who have known me all my life know this) – I WAS NEVER
    “MENTALLY ILL”
    BEFORE
    TAKING PAXIL (causing adverse reactions mistaken as M.I. – anxiety and insomnia) FOR A CUSTODY BATTLE, SITUATION/STRESS, not a “mental illness” and being progressively medicated out of my mind…causing me to lose the most precious things in life – quality time as myself and giving of myself as myself to my girls and of course, the one daughter I did not have to battle over in family court – Maggie (Magdalene Marie Webber – my life is now dedicated to her and preventing more tragedies – at least through the publication of a book which will show what people can look for in order to see that someone might be dangerous and what they should do – I should have been hospitalized! I did my paper on Kendra’s Law in Psychiatry and the Law and this was one situation it should have been used!).

    Unfortunately, I was a naive, young lady who trusted the world because that is what my parents taught me. I was a goodhearted (still am) honest (always will be) young lady devastated at having to battle over the love of my life (Mallory) and listened to my husband who was trying to adopt her and let his doctor prescribe me Paxil “to take the edge off” as “they prescribe it for PMS, so why not” – the doctor’s reasoning. I spent my life trying to please others and do as THEY wanted – so I got into that rollercoaster car with blinders on.

    Anyway, you can read the story as Dr. Tasch and I are compiling the FACTS since there is such a lack of them and hopefully publishing it soon.

    THANK YOU – EVERYONE at MAI – Keep up the good work and know little things DO count, right Leigh – my hair is not a frizzy, broken mess from IDHS blue soap thanks to you – and Lori C. your cards with the names of MAI supports cheered me up at some of the lowest times while I battled the effects of soft torture. Make no mistake, I did experience that and I would rather give birth every single day (at least you have a beautiful baby amidst the pain) or do 100 basic training weeks in the army than be isolated and sleep deprived. THANK YOU FOR HELPING ME – ALL OF YOU! I am forever grateful.

  30. Well, Merry Christmas – just FYI, The State must have unlimited tax dollars since I now have until Dec 27th to respond to Joe and Jennifer Lindt’s EMERGENCY motion to the Appellate Court to stay Judge Bakalis’ decision to release me. Sure, put me back in HELL now that I am getting better and doing well….at tax payers expense.

    I am SOOOO tired of dodging this MALICIOUS PROSECUTION (it really IS when I was acquitted and committed to be “healed” and you see the false info – why is it worth them committing crimes like the perjury and fraud I have seen – they keep including to character assassinate me. Like losing everything in my life including my identity with a label that disables, discriminates and limits isn’t enough…take all my time and holiday “cheer” too?). This is sooo anti-therapeutic and pathetic on the State’s part. Go prosecute the ones who have perpetrated fraud on the court – why isn’t there an investigation into that? Govt. employees are above the law?

    Doesn ‘t Joe have real criminals to prosecute? I WAS ACQUITTED then sent to be brutalized for years – can I finally grieve and be left alone?

    I was not myself because of the meds (700+reports of homicide exist in the FDA records – and Dr. James Corcoran admitted it himself “I saw you in jail, that’s what I thought” Do we need to hear all about that?) and thought I was SAVING her not hurting her – Maggie WOULD NOT APPROVE OF THIS nor would any true Christian, or god-fearing person who would not want to be judged as unfairly as I have. Where is any mercy in this world? THIS WITCH HUNT WON’T BRING HER BACK – if it would I would happily volunteer for it.

    I loved her more than anything, living without her is more than enough punishment – plus losing her sisters because of this and my dad too. Can’t this END?

    Why doesn’t Joe and Jennifer go after the seminarian that molested poor Maggie before the tragedy – he preys on little ones and babies? The State is SUPPOSED to have a parens patriae duty to me now, not all this police power in my face or dishonesty in a court of law.

    GOD HELP ME! God help them that they are not judged like they have me. Please pray for me MIA.

  32. Marci is back in custody at Chicago Reed Hospital. The Illinois appellate court granted the state attorneys who appealed the conditional release order an emergency order that Marci has to remain in custody during the appeal process. With the help of her friends she has filed a motion for release, we should hear something next week.

    • I visited Marci at Read this weekend, she is doing her best to stay positive.

      It is very upsetting that the state used a motion intended to preserve the status quo over an abuse of Judge’s discretion to get her back in custody. If anything the judge has been lenient on IDHS in this matter.

      Marci was feeling much better as part of the community and finally starting to heal during her almost two full week of freedom before being forced back into custody. Please remember it has been over 8 years since Marci has shown any signs of psychosis or being a danger to others. Hopefully there will be an investigation into the unethical actions of the state.

      Words of encouragement can be sent to Judge George Bakalis, 505 N Country Farm Road, Wheaton IL 60187. The 2nd District of Appeals can be reached at 55 Symphony Way Elgin IL 60123.

      Please let them know this is constitutionally a dangerous precedent to set in a country founded on freedom. It is unethical and illegal to take a person out of the community and into custody without a valid reason, notice or a hearing.

      Who is being helped or protected by keeping Marci in custody? No one. What justice is being served? If you can call Marci to show support, she can be reached at 773 794-4036 / 4049.

      Here is an excerpt from a poem Marci wrote:
      and its all been a masquerade
      belief in recovery has faded away
      she will never ever be the same
      stuck in a political prisoner’s game

      We should all show our outrage.

      • I’d like to encourage as many letters as possible to the above judicial addresses and local media, such as the Daily Herald to do the right thing and let her get on with her life, and get the story straight. Your support of Marci supports everyone who’s been labeled, stigmatized, and a abused as “mental illness.”

  35. Sad all around.
    The brain is tough but vulnerable. The drugs started years ago, and the changes people go through, often very difficult to see because it is difficult for the mind to know the brain.
    Changes that seem positive, often are not.
    Shrinks that put people on these drugs, full well know the dangers. Some people might want to blame Marci for having stopped the drugs, yet it happens when people are on them too.
    The point is, these drugs are not safe, but no one will acknowledge that.
    People have problems, sometimes big problems, or they become big because of crappy support, etc. Yes sometimes we even create our own problems because of lack of tools.
    When someone’s life is in turmoil, drugs are not a safe treatment.
    I don’t believe for Marci to be out and being forced to be drugged would have a good outcome.
    If we are going to drug people under the pretence of being safe, then should we not drug everyone as a precaution? How do I know that my therapist won’t blow a fuse?
    Or the cop? Or my neighbour?
    But then we have the issue of suicides and homicides occurring with startup drugs, with changes and discontinuing improperly. So there really is no SAFE stage.

    There is absolutely NO DOUBT about the mistreatment in MI places. I have seen it while visiting patients and I know that passive aggressive crap, it is so obvious. They antagonize patients. Many of those nurses have so many loose screws…those mean dishonest types. It’s okay to be different, even okay to fail to be nice, but not so okay when in a ‘care’ position. Not okay to write garbage down, stuff that does not even have to be written down.
    To write down that a patient swore, when the context is not wholly admitted? That is what transpires in MI units, the people who work there are somehow infallible. I have NEVER heard of infallible people, especially when in such taxing jobs.
    I see cops pulling shit on people all the time. Even their niceness is not nice. These behaviours have exactly the effect they are supposed to have, they make people nuts. And if the clients don’t react, they simply get lied about in some other way, but always negative unless the ‘nurse’ likes the person.
    Even if a client was nuts, they would not be able to tell, because the staff and shrinks obviously have issues.
    We will always be in a position of not knowing, no one has the science on that, however we know drugs are as unpredictable as people can be, so why throw that garbage into the mix?

    There is no “proper” investigation into these situations because the drugs are chemicals that harm, and capable of great harm. To ignore this is unsafe for period. All testimony thus is questionable because the drugs were originally prescribed when they should not have been.
    If psychiatry would admit to the lengths it has to go, to protect it’s lies, to protect their own warped personalities, personalities of a different kind, we might prevent a few tragedies.
    Not sure if the judges and lawyers are following what is transpiring and how psychiatry has not been able to slow down the trends.

  37. One reality here Cindy is that had she gone to report the paranoia, they would have upped the drugs.
    I remember way back, I had a thought, because I was being affected by stuff around me.
    I am so glad I never told anyone, because a swift change by being put on drugs might very well have resulted in my thoughts being altered enough to cause my thought to be more than thought.
    I experienced one paxil pill some 20 years ago, and it was evil.
    Thank god I had a bad enough reaction to see it’s damage.
    Even now when I mention it, no medical person takes it seriously.
    And I can tell you, under paxil I would have done something nasty, and no one would have been the wiser.
    The general public knows little and thinks psychiatry is a science, despite the evidence.
    I had to ride that one paxil out and was even more vulnerable when it wore off.
    Had I gone back, it would have led to more and different.

    It’s crazy that they are still talking meds even after what happened. They often have bad effects, that not everyone is lucky enough to see, and when they do see, they want off, yet few psychiatrists were ever open to that, so it leaves people doing it themselves.
    But it takes so long for the brain to get to some baseline, and since the whole of ourselves is never known to us nor anyone else, and since we change on a continuum, we can never truly know what ‘baseline’ is.

    We need judges that are not pro-psychiatry, not anti-psychiatry, but judges that have weighed the evidence of research. The anecdotal reports of people.
    To be a judge, a dependable one, one has to know about the subject in question.
    I believe judges have no clue how nasty staff can be. Even in ER, medical visits are laced with abuses to those with labels.

  39. A year and eight months have passed since they forced Marci back into the system. I don’t know how much longer she can hold on. The other patients are harrassing her and her court date keeps on getting pushed back. She now has a Twitter #Webberfree. I’m making a general appeal to help her. She needs funds to pay a lawyer. She has so much information on how messed up the forensic mental health system is – and needs to get out and write a book. She suspects that she is being held as they know she will expose how horrible the “so-called treatment” is. Please call her if you can help. 773-794-4036, afternoons preferred.

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